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#1899763 - 05/19/12 01:03 PM Why filming from the top
Jean-Luc Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/19/12
Posts: 318
Loc: France
Hello smile

I have been given a free trial access (24 hours) to a piano learning site (French language). The teacher seems nice an competent but I really why, when people try to teach you stuff on the piano, they always film from the top ??? It's maybe good to see which key has been pressed but I really think it's not the interesting part. In my opinion, it's not which one has been pressed but rather "how has it been done ?". Did the fingers move ? The hand rotated ? The hand moved up and down ? The arm ?
Sorry for ranting here smile I would only be interested to know if I am the only one to be irritated by that smile (I do not include free stuff posted on youtube in my ranting btw, I am talking about professionally made lessons, I will never complain about people who generously share their knowledge).
(btw, before anyone mention it, I know it's evil to try and learn from the web wink )


Edited by Jean-Luc (05/19/12 01:08 PM)
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Jean-Luc

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#1899790 - 05/19/12 01:45 PM Re: Why filming from the top [Re: Jean-Luc]
wouter79 Offline
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Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 3244
Quote:
rather "how has it been done ?". Did the fingers move ? The hand rotated ? The hand moved up and down ? The arm ?


Good to hear what you WOULD like to see.

Any preferences for a particular view? Side view? A little from above? Zoomed in hands? slowmotion?
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#1899796 - 05/19/12 01:58 PM Re: Why filming from the top [Re: Jean-Luc]
Jean-Luc Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/19/12
Posts: 318
Loc: France
Well, as I mentioned earlier I am talking about a site with a monthly fee so I would expect the teacher to know what the student need to see.
When watching the videos it is obvious that at least two cameras were used, one showing the teacher talking, one from the top showing his fingers. The problem I have is the fact that as soon as he starts playing, we switch to the top view. Since the teacher plays the same thing a couple of times, it would have been more interesting (at least in my opinion) to see a three quarter view of his hands / arms rather than his fingers from the top. We are talking about a beginner course with a very limited amount of keys played and the score shown on the left part of the screen. I am myself a very beginner and I really think that the problem when you begin and you have to deal with ten notes, it's not to find them but rather to know the right way to play them.
_________________________
- Please, forgive my bad English smile

Jean-Luc

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#1899797 - 05/19/12 01:59 PM Re: Why filming from the top [Re: Jean-Luc]
Bob Newbie Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/02/06
Posts: 1549
Mostly from the top shows you how to copy what is being played..the only time I
witnessed a side shot, demonstrating a trill(closeup)
or in pop music a "trick" or technique, ie blueberry hill
rythmn..


Edited by Bob Newbie (05/19/12 02:02 PM)

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#1899798 - 05/19/12 02:04 PM Re: Why filming from the top [Re: Jean-Luc]
Jean-Luc Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/19/12
Posts: 318
Loc: France
Bob Newbie, I really think that when you learn the piano there is a lot more to it than knowing what key to press (it's actually rather trivial) and a top view (especially with the deformation of a camera lens) won't help a beginner very much. When you try to show how to play a tune to a non-reader, it's a perfectly legitimate way of doing things (at least on a non professional site) but when you try to show how you should play the piano, it's at least as much an horizontal action than it is a vertical one (if it makes sense) and the fingers are really only a part of the equation.
_________________________
- Please, forgive my bad English smile

Jean-Luc

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#1899801 - 05/19/12 02:19 PM Re: Why filming from the top [Re: Jean-Luc]
Bob Newbie Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/02/06
Posts: 1549
although in my case after 45 years of jazz guitar..and then switching to piano I'm hardly a novice, and took to the block chord playing, I still struggle with rythmn, Maybe its the
(digital piano).. so I stick to playing cocktail standards.. smile

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#1899810 - 05/19/12 02:30 PM Re: Why filming from the top [Re: Jean-Luc]
Jean-Luc Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/19/12
Posts: 318
Loc: France
Bob, I am pretty sure you are very advanced compared to me smile And being a musician, you probably have plenty of opportunities to see "how it is done" in real situation.
_________________________
- Please, forgive my bad English smile

Jean-Luc

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#1899842 - 05/19/12 03:40 PM Re: Why filming from the top [Re: Jean-Luc]
Sand Tiger Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/25/12
Posts: 911
Loc: Southern California
The point about other factors is a good one. If a person isn't getting what they want, there are plenty of other resources for seat position, hand and finger position, arm movement, posture, hand height.

That said, filming from the top makes it easier to see the keys. If a person doesn't like that style seek other resources, they are out there.

For learning tunes, I tend to prefer the top view, played real slow, with repetition. Side angle makes it much more difficult to see which keys are being pressed. Good close ups with the hand, and varying angles can triple the time and cost of making and editing any videos, so I can understand the limitations of the medium.
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#1899858 - 05/19/12 04:16 PM Re: Why filming from the top [Re: Jean-Luc]
Jean-Luc Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/19/12
Posts: 318
Loc: France
I think I should have explained a bit better smile
- It is a BIG paying site, not a small budget company (I don't mention the name of the site but it's probably the biggest online music school in French).
- It is aimed at people who have never touched a piano before
- It is filmed with two cameras, one of which would do a decent job at showing what part of the body should be activated (but this camera is only used when the teacher is talking). As an example, the teacher talk about wrist movements, but those are virtually invisible from the top (what amplitude, what is their role compared to the finger, is there only a up and down movement or also a wrist rotation ...)

Roberts Estrin posted a video on youtube yesterday or the day before and you can see how it should be done.
I don't see anything wrong in filming from the top, one of my favorite youtube resource, pianoologist, also film mostly from the top, but the difference is, when he explained hand, arm, wrist movements, he showed these body parts.

I will make a comparison with basked-ball: if you teach strategy to advanced players, it's fine to show a game filmed from above to demonstrate the right placement. Now, if you teach beginner how to dribble, I don't think the same film will do them any good smile

Sand Tiger: I understand what you mean, they are indeed a lot of other resources available, but if you pay for a teacher, you shouldn't need to go on youtube to hunt for explanations. Actually, I think it's the role of a good teacher to answer even the questions you don't think to ask (I know it sounds silly, but when you start learning something, you don't necessarily know what is really important unless someone more experienced point it to you).


Edited by Jean-Luc (05/19/12 04:24 PM)
_________________________
- Please, forgive my bad English smile

Jean-Luc

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#1899959 - 05/19/12 07:57 PM Re: Why filming from the top [Re: Jean-Luc]
KeysAngler Offline
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Registered: 01/14/10
Posts: 228
Loc: The Fabulous Florida Keys
Well who uses film anymore anyways?

Just kidding ...

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#1900095 - 05/20/12 04:40 AM Re: Why filming from the top [Re: Jean-Luc]
Jean-Luc Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/19/12
Posts: 318
Loc: France
Hehe smile Well, to be honest I don't know how it's called in the modern age ? Digitizing sounds a bit like the guy was placed on a scanner, recording maybe ?

btw, wouter79 asked earlier what I would like to see: I consider this kind of camera angle more useful for a beginner http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PqVK-2iOb8&feature=channel&list=UL With this kind of camera angle you can more precisely judge the role played by the various body parts.
I really want to stress the fact that I mean that for demonstrations of "how to play". Filming from the top is perfectly fine here http://www.youtube.com/user/billhiltonbiz/videos because the videos are not meant to show you how to play the keys but rather what keys to play.


Edited by Jean-Luc (05/20/12 05:47 AM)
_________________________
- Please, forgive my bad English smile

Jean-Luc

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#1901035 - 05/22/12 01:08 AM Re: Why filming from the top [Re: Jean-Luc]
Brian Lucas Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/11
Posts: 899
That's a good point. Hadn't thought of the 3/4 angle. I can safely respond because I know you're not talking about me, I'm no big budget site. smile I guess from my perspective a 2 camera setup was easiest, since at the 3/4 angle you'd get the second camera in the first shot. My site is more aimed at pop/rock players, so things like trills and such aren't demonstrated. For a few things I set up an angled shot, but they were cut into the main video, filmed at a different time. But you have given me some things to think about and if I ever do get a bigger budget and refilm, I'll try to add some other angles in.

What are the main things that you feel you aren't getting from the 2 camera set up? Is it every lesson that you feel another angle would be beneficial or just when it applies to technique?
_________________________
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BM in Performance, Berklee College of Music, 21+ year teacher and touring musician
My Downloadable Video Piano Lessons
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#1901040 - 05/22/12 01:21 AM Why filming from the top [Re: Jean-Luc]
LoPresti Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/10
Posts: 1304
Loc: New York
A naive question, perhaps: Would not all the shortcomings mentioned above be solved by simply getting a real teacher?
_________________________
In music, everything one does correctly helps everything else.

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#1901096 - 05/22/12 07:13 AM Re: Why filming from the top [Re: Jean-Luc]
Jean-Luc Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/19/12
Posts: 318
Loc: France
@ LoPresti: I have nothing against "in person" teachers, but as it has already be mentioned quiet a few times in this forum, for some people it is simply not an option (reasons behind that can be numerous: geographical location, not enough money, health problems...)
As for "real teacher": I understand what you mean by that (a teacher at your side as opposite to "remote") but I really want to make something clear, the problem I had with the site I mentioned was not the qualification of the teacher but rather the technical realization. I am sure that a lot of teacher who choose to teach through books, dvds, websites or skype are as competent and qualified than many "in person" teacher.

Brian, you are right to think you were not meant (I would have been a lot more lenient with a small company - the company I am talking about claims a capital of two millions euros).
This being said, the purpose of this thread wasn't to complain but rather to make people who realize tutorials for the piano aware of the fact that the top camera setup isn't ideal in all situations, for that reason I am very happy of your interest smile

First, one thing I have to emphasize: while the tutorials I mention were made using a two camera setup, only the top camera is used when the teacher is actually playing (including for example, when demonstrating the thumb over / under technique - and it is a wide shot btw.)

Second, my comments are really meant for tutorials aimed at beginners, tutorials where techniques are demonstrated, not tutorials where chords constructions are shown, for those, a top view is perfectly fine in my opinion.

The things I consider missing from a top view are essentially the various motions (even more so if you consider that, depending on the lens used, you can have a very distorted view of the fingers making it very hard to see how they are actually used).
I really think that, when you demonstrating to a beginner, each new technique should show the whole hand + forearm group (up to the elbows and shoulders when the technique call for it) in such a way that every axis where a rotation occur are visible (for example, if you show a "five fingers" exercise, the role played by the finger and the role played by the hand / forearm must be clear for the pupil. From the top, there is way too much guesswork).
So basically, I would say, a clear view of each new technique with the camera placed at an appropriate angle (It's the role of the teacher to determine what angle, he is the one who knows what movements are important for each technique).

I really hope it helps, I want this thread to be constructive and help making better tutorials, I am not here to complain, I am here to show things from the point of view of an ultra beginner and try to point out the shortcomings. I really think there is a place for web based instruction even for the piano (even more so when the teacher has the ability to see the student, be it through skype or by the mean of uploaded videos, and provide feedback). We now have the technology to make the learning process easier even for people who, for various reasons, cannot have a teacher at their side, it's really important to try and use this technology as well as possible smile

btw, I really stretched my English to its limits here and I don't really have the time to reread the whole post right now, so please, forgive the mistakes smile
_________________________
- Please, forgive my bad English smile

Jean-Luc

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#1901177 - 05/22/12 10:26 AM Re: Why filming from the top [Re: Jean-Luc]
Jean-Luc Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/19/12
Posts: 318
Loc: France
I uploaded a little video on youtube to try to demonstrate what I would consider to be a good camera angle for technique lessons http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuuHD7LaH4M (Don't mind the fingers, I had to move them to show what I mean but obviously, I don't try to demonstrate any technique ;))
I hope it is helpful. I am well aware it is not professional quality, I received the camera this morning (a small webcam) in the intention of trying an online course where the teacher give you feedback based on video you upload.

Note, obviously, when the hand get outside of the camera field, it shouldn't happen wink


Edited by Jean-Luc (05/22/12 10:57 AM)
_________________________
- Please, forgive my bad English smile

Jean-Luc

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#1901183 - 05/22/12 10:38 AM Re: Why filming from the top [Re: Jean-Luc]
LoPresti Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/10
Posts: 1304
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Jean-Luc
@ LoPresti: I have nothing against "in person" teachers, but as it has already be mentioned quiet a few times in this forum, for some people it is simply not an option (reasons behind that can be numerous: geographical location, not enough money, health problems...)
As for "real teacher": I understand what you mean by that (a teacher at your side as opposite to "remote") but I really want to make something clear, the problem I had with the site I mentioned was not the qualification of the teacher but rather the technical realization. I am sure that a lot of teacher who choose to teach through books, dvds, websites or skype are as competent and qualified than many "in person" teacher.

Jean-Luc,
I did not make myself clear (and English IS my primary language, so I have no excuses!) I am addressing the severe limitations of the technical realization -- ANY technical solution. With a real, live teacher, one gets to see her/him from ALL angles. The student sees the facial expression, AND the arms, hands, fingers, keys being depressed, velocity, pedaling, means of expression. Voice and nuance. There is the live sound where the teacher might be demonstrating, and speaking at the same time. It is unique, and, with a good teacher AND a good student, it has been successful for centuries, as those in your beautiful part of the world are well aware.

As LoPresti is fond of saying, "The map is not the territory", and that includes digital "maps" as well.
_________________________
In music, everything one does correctly helps everything else.

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#1901189 - 05/22/12 10:55 AM Re: Why filming from the top [Re: Jean-Luc]
Jean-Luc Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/19/12
Posts: 318
Loc: France
LoPresti, I do understand what you mean and I couldn't agree more. I am also persuaded that (at least with the currently available technology), nothing can match a good teacher sitting next to you, showing you how things have to be done and correcting your mistakes when you try to replicate what she/he just showed you. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that it is the best possible solution (provided of course that you and your teacher are a good match for each other).
While I would also agree to the fact that we should always choose the best solution for everything we do, it is not always possible.
When the best solution isn't accessible to you, then you have to go for the next best thing. And if you consider that this best next thing has flaws, you can either complain about it or you can try to make people aware of the flaws and try to help them the best you can to try and overcome them.
In the best of all world, we could all learn all the things we want to, after all, every bit of knowledge make us better person (at least that's what I think). But, in the real world it's not always like that (and we are lucky if our only problem is getting piano lessons, for so many people on Earth it's about day to day survival).
What remains to us is choosing between totally giving up or choosing the next best thing, and try to make it better and better smile
btw, I hope you understand I am not criticizing you at all, in fact I agree with you, I just try to explain why I try to "fix" the next best thing, simply because "the best thing" isn't really an option for me (due both to my health and what I can actually afford).
_________________________
- Please, forgive my bad English smile

Jean-Luc

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#1901200 - 05/22/12 11:10 AM Why filming from the top [Re: Jean-Luc]
LoPresti Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/10
Posts: 1304
Loc: New York
Jean-Luc,

I do not take your comments as criticism - quite the contrary! It is a pleasure to exchange ideas with someone as incisive as you.

If you are this eloquent in your second or third language, I can only imagine what a pleasure it is to read your views written in French.

Ed
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In music, everything one does correctly helps everything else.

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#1901220 - 05/22/12 11:54 AM Re: Why filming from the top [Re: Jean-Luc]
jotur Online   blank
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 5279
Loc: Santa Fe, NM
Jean-Luc,

You have really well-thought out ideas for web-based instructions, and it's nice to see at least one web-based instructor who is open to them.

You are so right about in-person lessons not always being an option, and that we often trade-off the ideal for the possible, and not just for piano lessons. Many people (hi!)trade off acoustic pianos for the best digital they can afford.

Thanks for these posts. Always something to think about.

Cathy
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#1901239 - 05/22/12 12:24 PM Re: Why filming from the top [Re: Jean-Luc]
Jean-Luc Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/19/12
Posts: 318
Loc: France
@ Ed: Thank you blush I am a passionate person and sometimes when I express myself in a foreign language I fear to be a bit harsh. I am happy there were no misunderstanding smile
@ Cathy: I am with you on that, as much as I love my little P155, I wouldn't mind a grand 3hearts (Not sure my neighbors would share my enthusiasm though ;))

Oh, and btw, I fixed the youtube link, apparently I had uploaded as "private" while I meant to upload it as "unlisted" smile


Edited by Jean-Luc (05/22/12 12:27 PM)
_________________________
- Please, forgive my bad English smile

Jean-Luc

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#1901531 - 05/22/12 09:57 PM Re: Why filming from the top [Re: Jean-Luc]
Brian Lucas Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/11
Posts: 899
Originally Posted By: Jean-Luc
This being said, the purpose of this thread wasn't to complain but rather to make people who realize tutorials for the piano aware of the fact that the top camera setup isn't ideal in all situations, for that reason I am very happy of your interest smile
I took it just how you meant it, as a possible improvement. If I took offense to it, I doubt I would have responded wink

Funny, I put a lot of time into making sure I got a good sound, since many of the tutorials I found in my research seemed to have bad audio. I guess I fell into the 2 camera typical video setup with little thought (and rigging an overhead camera isn't all that easy). My site was a test really to see if there was any interest. I may put another budget together and refilm using all I've learned during and after the process. I don't have millions of euros to spend (which is even more US dollars), but I certainly take well intentioned criticisms and suggestions to heart and believe there is always room for improvement. So I for one thank you for the input. It's something I may not have considered on my own.
_________________________
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BM in Performance, Berklee College of Music, 21+ year teacher and touring musician
My Downloadable Video Piano Lessons
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#1901744 - 05/23/12 09:36 AM Re: Why filming from the top [Re: Jean-Luc]
Jean-Luc Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/19/12
Posts: 318
Loc: France
Brian, the fact that you are the teacher and the person who makes the final movie is a big plus. On the site I mentioned, it is clear that the teacher is probably very capable, the problem in my opinion is the fact that he was probably hired to record the tutorials, was paid and left. After that, the material was probably handled to a technician with instructions similar to this "When he talks, his face, when he plays, his hands from the top". What was lacking was a piano savvy person (the teacher), telling to the "director", "Wait a minute, this is important, the students need to see how I move my wrist here" (just an example obviously smile ).
If I had a last tip to give here it would be, when you prepare your lesson, if you feel the need to say "Pay a special attention to ...", then you probably also need to make sure that "the thing to pay attention" to is clearly visible for the camera and at the right angle smile.


Edited by Jean-Luc (05/23/12 09:45 AM)
_________________________
- Please, forgive my bad English smile

Jean-Luc

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#1902204 - 05/24/12 05:40 AM Re: Why filming from the top [Re: Jean-Luc]
Jean-Luc Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/19/12
Posts: 318
Loc: France
In the interest of fairness I have to amend my very first post: I decided to enroll for another test drive with the same online school but another teacher and the editing is much better. I don't know if this set of lessons was done afterwards taking into account the feedback of users or if the teacher took a more active part in the editing process but I was just watching the "C-scale" tutorials and you have plenty of three quarter hand shots showing the thumb under technique.
I also checked a US online course by a lady located in California and based on the samples the quality seems more than excellent (it seems to be the online branch of a "real" school so apparently she has a lot of experience with teaching).
There is still hope for us who can't have the "real ting" smile
_________________________
- Please, forgive my bad English smile

Jean-Luc

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#1902224 - 05/24/12 06:52 AM Re: OT Why filming from the top [Re: Brian Lucas]
manyhands Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/19/12
Posts: 106
Loc: Md
Good points made

Brian...nice site. So is this approach financially viable for you?
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Big Mama Yama U1

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#1902440 - 05/24/12 03:22 PM Re: OT Why filming from the top [Re: manyhands]
Brian Lucas Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/11
Posts: 899
Originally Posted By: manyhands
Good points made

Brian...nice site. So is this approach financially viable for you?
Thanks. I only launched the site last year, so it's still been a bit of a learning curve and trying to get the word out. I'm profitable so far, but barely. I'm aware that the bigger budget sites have more flash than me, so it was more a matter of attempting a better (or at least different) approach to teaching. The advantage I have is being able to take advice and alter the site without any committee like Jean-Luc said. I'll see how things are going the end of this year to decide what to do, revamp, etc. Still a new concept for me, so I love the input here.

However, this is the way I've taught for years, so that's been a big part of my financial world. Each year, my income is split between teaching and playing, so it's been a nice balance. Thanks for the compliment. I appreciate it!
_________________________
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BM in Performance, Berklee College of Music, 21+ year teacher and touring musician
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