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#1898827 - 05/17/12 07:07 PM Compare Pianoteq 4 with Korg 250
Yuri Pavlov Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/08/10
Posts: 211
Loc: Moscow, Russia
Korg SP250, Grand Piano 1 -
http://soundcloud.com/yuripavl/arno-korg250

Pianoteq 4 Std, D4 -
http://soundcloud.com/yuripavl/arno-pt4
Pianoteq was very difficult to record. And could not get rid of any excess acoustic noise.

Original (excellent playing!!! with orchestra) -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRVQNirjOkk

Music: Arno Babadjanyan, Nocturne
_________________________
DP: Korg Sp-250,Pianoteq 3.x, TruePianos 1.9x;
Grand piano: Blutner, Muhlbach, Yamaha;
Upright: Kalujanka;
English (with some problems)

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#1898836 - 05/17/12 07:33 PM Re: Compare Pianoteq 4 with Korg 250 [Re: Yuri Pavlov]
Kawai James Online   content
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8401
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Why was Pianoteq difficult to record?

Is it not possible to record direct to WAV (i.e. purely digitally)?

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1898921 - 05/18/12 12:37 AM Re: Compare Pianoteq 4 with Korg 250 [Re: Yuri Pavlov]
Yuri Pavlov Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/08/10
Posts: 211
Loc: Moscow, Russia
No, I incorrectly wrote.
I meant that to obtain an adequate record has been much more difficult, as prevented a roar, while playing. As a result, the sound is somehow dirty. I made about 10 attempts and still could not get rid of the dirt (probably had to work with the settings, but there are many).
That is, after pressing key the sound is not only very long decays, but for too long maintained a high level. I guess it's somewhere you can customize.

Ever since the record had no problems - press REC, then play, then STOP, listen, and then Export to Wav
_________________________
DP: Korg Sp-250,Pianoteq 3.x, TruePianos 1.9x;
Grand piano: Blutner, Muhlbach, Yamaha;
Upright: Kalujanka;
English (with some problems)

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#1899065 - 05/18/12 07:46 AM Re: Compare Pianoteq 4 with Korg 250 [Re: Yuri Pavlov]
dmd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/15/09
Posts: 1688
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: Yuri Pavlov
That is, after pressing key the sound is not only very long decays, but for too long maintained a high level. I guess it's somewhere you can customize.


The definition of impedance for Pianoteq PRO is ...

IMPEDANCE - The greater the soundboard mechanical impedance, the longer the sound becomes.


It would appear that you might try lowering the impedance setting a bit.
_________________________
Don

My current system: Kawai ES7 + Focal CMS40 Powered Monitors, SennHeiser HD555 Phones, Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 audio interface, Mackie ProFX8 Mixer, Ravenscroft275, True Keys American Grand, Ivory II American Concert D, Steinway Basic, Galaxy Vintage D, True Pianos, Pianoteq, Alicia's Keys

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#1899131 - 05/18/12 10:04 AM Re: Compare Pianoteq 4 with Korg 250 [Re: Yuri Pavlov]
mabry Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/11/11
Posts: 4
Loc: New Jersey
Which D4 FXP did you use on PianoTeq?

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#1901395 - 05/22/12 04:52 PM Re: Compare Pianoteq 4 with Korg 250 [Re: Yuri Pavlov]
Yuri Pavlov Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/08/10
Posts: 211
Loc: Moscow, Russia
Anyway, I was able to adjust the sound as it should!
True, had to adjust many parameters. The ideal is not reached, but at least it was more or less adequate sound!
Here's the result - http://soundcloud.com/yuripavl/arno-pt4-var2
_________________________
DP: Korg Sp-250,Pianoteq 3.x, TruePianos 1.9x;
Grand piano: Blutner, Muhlbach, Yamaha;
Upright: Kalujanka;
English (with some problems)

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#1901450 - 05/22/12 06:14 PM Re: Compare Pianoteq 4 with Korg 250 [Re: Yuri Pavlov]
voxpops Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 2918
Loc: Oregon
Thanks for posting these, Yuri, I enjoyed listening to them. You know, the old SP-250 acquits itself very well. Even though it lacks the additional velocity layers of newer instruments, it has a very good basic tone, without the truncated attacks/decays that plague many DPs.

PT4 seems better than 3 in the upper register particularly. It still has a very slightly "throaty" feel in the mids and lower-mids, but I generally found it much more pleasing than the previous version. It certainly wins in terms of dynamics over the Korg.

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#1901462 - 05/22/12 06:33 PM Re: Compare Pianoteq 4 with Korg 250 [Re: voxpops]
Yuri Pavlov Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/08/10
Posts: 211
Loc: Moscow, Russia
Originally Posted By: voxpops
Thanks for posting these, Yuri, I enjoyed listening to them. You know, the old SP-250 acquits itself very well. Even though it lacks the additional velocity layers of newer instruments, it has a very good basic tone, without the truncated attacks/decays that plague many DPs.

PT4 seems better than 3 in the upper register particularly. It still has a very slightly "throaty" feel in the mids and lower-mids, but I generally found it much more pleasing than the previous version. It certainly wins in terms of dynamics over the Korg.


Thanks!!! But to customize the sound in the Pt4 is not easy. A basic presets, despite their numbers, the sound is sometimes very strange
_________________________
DP: Korg Sp-250,Pianoteq 3.x, TruePianos 1.9x;
Grand piano: Blutner, Muhlbach, Yamaha;
Upright: Kalujanka;
English (with some problems)

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#1901468 - 05/22/12 06:45 PM Re: Compare Pianoteq 4 with Korg 250 [Re: Yuri Pavlov]
dmd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/15/09
Posts: 1688
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: Yuri Pavlov
But to customize the sound in the Pt4 is not easy.


That is very true. I have pretty much stopped thinking that I will be able to create a better sound than what has already been provided. I sometimes will just lower the volume a little for the lows and highs, and a few other small changes but for the most part I just use what is already there. I assume if there was something better, it would already be there.
_________________________
Don

My current system: Kawai ES7 + Focal CMS40 Powered Monitors, SennHeiser HD555 Phones, Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 audio interface, Mackie ProFX8 Mixer, Ravenscroft275, True Keys American Grand, Ivory II American Concert D, Steinway Basic, Galaxy Vintage D, True Pianos, Pianoteq, Alicia's Keys

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#1901625 - 05/23/12 02:29 AM Re: Compare Pianoteq 4 with Korg 250 [Re: Yuri Pavlov]
Paolo70 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/20/11
Posts: 67
Loc: Italy
Hi Yuri,

Thank you for sharing this interesting comparative test.

Would you mind sharing the customized PT4 preset that you used for the last recording?

It seems to improve some of the aspects that I don't like in the PT4 stock sounds and I'd like to try it myself.

Ciao,
Paolo
_________________________
Yamaha CLP-970
Roland JV-1080

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#1901653 - 05/23/12 03:46 AM Re: Compare Pianoteq 4 with Korg 250 [Re: Paolo70]
Yuri Pavlov Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/08/10
Posts: 211
Loc: Moscow, Russia
Originally Posted By: Paolo70
Hi Yuri,
Would you mind sharing the customized PT4 preset that you used for the last recording?


I put fxp for this record at
http://yuri-pavl.com/sound/D4-Classical-BA-my1.fxp
_________________________
DP: Korg Sp-250,Pianoteq 3.x, TruePianos 1.9x;
Grand piano: Blutner, Muhlbach, Yamaha;
Upright: Kalujanka;
English (with some problems)

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#1901655 - 05/23/12 04:00 AM Re: Compare Pianoteq 4 with Korg 250 [Re: Yuri Pavlov]
Paolo70 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/20/11
Posts: 67
Loc: Italy
Thank you Yuri,

I'll hopefully be able to try it out this evening.

Have a good day,
Paolo
_________________________
Yamaha CLP-970
Roland JV-1080

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#1901710 - 05/23/12 08:39 AM Re: Compare Pianoteq 4 with Korg 250 [Re: Yuri Pavlov]
Bogs Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/17/10
Posts: 132
Pianoteq4 wins hands down for me. Could you render the same file with the mellow piano on the SP250?
_________________________
old Gaveau upright & Kawai CA63; previously Korg SP250

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#1901942 - 05/23/12 04:23 PM Re: Compare Pianoteq 4 with Korg 250 [Re: Bogs]
Yuri Pavlov Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/08/10
Posts: 211
Loc: Moscow, Russia
Originally Posted By: Bogs
Pianoteq4 wins hands down for me. Could you render the same file with the mellow piano on the SP250?

I do not know whether this is because the character of the sound is transmitted the Grand Piano1. Mellow add some shades, but will remove others.
Therefore, significant differences will not be.
_________________________
DP: Korg Sp-250,Pianoteq 3.x, TruePianos 1.9x;
Grand piano: Blutner, Muhlbach, Yamaha;
Upright: Kalujanka;
English (with some problems)

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#1901986 - 05/23/12 05:55 PM Re: Compare Pianoteq 4 with Korg 250 [Re: Yuri Pavlov]
eagleleo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/11/09
Posts: 27
Yuri,

I had to reply to this topic as I, too, play PianoTeq 4 from a Korg SP250. smile

I really enjoy your pieces. The PianoTeq recording sounds more dynamic to my ears, although I feel they still have a lot of work to do on the D4 piano.

If you are interested in what the K1 sounds like in PianoTeq 4, here is a little sample recording of Pat Metheny's "Follow Me". Probably not the sound you are going for with this particular piece, but anyway:

http://db.tt/Wizz3zs8


Edited by eagleleo (05/23/12 05:56 PM)

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#1902172 - 05/24/12 02:22 AM Re: Compare Pianoteq 4 with Korg 250 [Re: Paolo70]
Paolo70 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/20/11
Posts: 67
Loc: Italy
Hi Yuri,

I tried your customized piano preset, and initially liked it more than the stock PT4 presets. I did have to slightly tweak the velocity response curve to better match my Clavinova keyboard, but it sounded quite nice overall.

However, upon further playing, I started to hear the same aspects of the PT sound that I don't like (a general hollowness and an unconvincing attack), so that in the end I wasn't too happy with the sound.

I tried to play with virtual microphone settings and noticed some changes (perhaps improvements) but I could still not find a fully satisfying setup.

That's curious, because your recording (and, actually, Eagle's too) sounds pretty good overall. I've come to the conclusion that PT4 can sound pretty nice if you aim at reproducing a listener's experience (some reverb helps there) but is not yet capable of reproducing a player's experience.

Please note that I'm only talking about sound quality. From a control point of view, I do find PT4 responds very well.

Thank you,
Paolo
_________________________
Yamaha CLP-970
Roland JV-1080

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#1902187 - 05/24/12 03:36 AM Re: Compare Pianoteq 4 with Korg 250 [Re: Paolo70]
Yuri Pavlov Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/08/10
Posts: 211
Loc: Moscow, Russia
Originally Posted By: Paolo70
Hi Yuri,

That's curious, because your recording (and, actually, Eagle's too) sounds pretty good overall. I've come to the conclusion that PT4 can sound pretty nice if you aim at reproducing a listener's experience (some reverb helps there) but is not yet capable of reproducing a player's experience.

For any DP necessary to get used to, so Pianotek requires some adaptation at runtime. It is absolutely inevitable!
A goal is to get the sound you want, not just performance!
And here at the PT a huge advantage in mind a very sensitive reaction to the dynamics of performance, an excellent supply a total sound picture (not a set of samples, and the complex representation of sound).
_________________________
DP: Korg Sp-250,Pianoteq 3.x, TruePianos 1.9x;
Grand piano: Blutner, Muhlbach, Yamaha;
Upright: Kalujanka;
English (with some problems)

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#1902201 - 05/24/12 05:21 AM Re: Compare Pianoteq 4 with Korg 250 [Re: Yuri Pavlov]
EssBrace Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2331
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
The Korg is one-dimensional and a bit boring with a very exaggerated stereo sound stage (much too much spread left to right), the PianoTeq is hollow and, as usual, eerie and "unreal" sounding and is either mono or very nearly mono with no discernible stereo width at all. No piano sounds good in mono, ever.

Interesting recordings, thanks for posting.

Steve
_________________________
Yamaha CP1

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#1902219 - 05/24/12 06:26 AM Re: Compare Pianoteq 4 with Korg 250 [Re: Yuri Pavlov]
Yuri Pavlov Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/08/10
Posts: 211
Loc: Moscow, Russia
Find a little bug in Pianotek 4 (I think and in 3 also) -
if an effort to press key and press the sustain, and then repeatedly press the little (sustain is pressed), then there are jumps in the sound. It should not be!
Demo with comment - http://soundcloud.com/yuripavl/pt-bug
_________________________
DP: Korg Sp-250,Pianoteq 3.x, TruePianos 1.9x;
Grand piano: Blutner, Muhlbach, Yamaha;
Upright: Kalujanka;
English (with some problems)

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