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#1902544 - 05/24/12 06:31 PM Action GH vs GH3
Phlox Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/14/10
Posts: 122
Loc: The Netherlands
Hi,

Why choose a GH3 instead of a GH action ??
I know that there is a third sensor in GH3 what would make it possible to have a faster repetition.

Is this a brochure thing or can you play faster/smoother with a GH3 board.
If it is faster, from what skill level would you benefit from the GH3 ??
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#1902581 - 05/24/12 07:40 PM Re: Action GH vs GH3 [Re: Phlox]
CyberGene Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/04/07
Posts: 793
Loc: Sofia, Bulgaria
I can't find any substantial difference between GH and GH3. I've owned a Yamaha P90 with GH and have played few of the latest Clavinovas with GH3. In fact, there's something in GH3 I don't like and that's some slight resistance (or hardness) of the keys in the beginning of their motion.

As to the third sensor, my understanding is that it helps for faster repetition on a single key. There are not many cases in which you would need that. What comes to my mind are some parts from the Ebm Toccata by Khatchaturian and to some degree Dm Toccata by Prokofiev and there may be some other classic repertoire pieces as well. Depends on the style you play I guess.


Edited by CyberGene (05/24/12 07:43 PM)
_________________________
http://www.myspace.com/evgenykumanov
Current DP: Kawai ES7
Previous DP-s: Kawai MP6, Kawai CA63, Roland RD-700SX, Roland FP-5, Yamaha P90, Korg SP-200, Casio CDP-100

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#1902587 - 05/24/12 08:13 PM Re: Action GH vs GH3 [Re: CyberGene]
ando Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 4136
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: CyberGene


As to the third sensor, my understanding is that it helps for faster repetition on a single key. There are not many cases in which you would need that. What comes to my mind are some parts from the Ebm Toccata by Khatchaturian and to some degree Dm Toccata by Prokofiev and there may be some other classic repertoire pieces as well. Depends on the style you play I guess.


I think the OP knows what it's meant to do, but wants to know if it actually works.

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#1902592 - 05/24/12 08:22 PM Re: Action GH vs GH3 [Re: Phlox]
CyberGene Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/04/07
Posts: 793
Loc: Sofia, Bulgaria
You're right, I haven't understood his question correctly, sorry for that.
_________________________
http://www.myspace.com/evgenykumanov
Current DP: Kawai ES7
Previous DP-s: Kawai MP6, Kawai CA63, Roland RD-700SX, Roland FP-5, Yamaha P90, Korg SP-200, Casio CDP-100

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#1902762 - 05/25/12 05:22 AM Re: Action GH vs GH3 [Re: Phlox]
offnote Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/10/10
Posts: 258
Loc: Banned
I wouldn't choose either one...

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#1902878 - 05/25/12 10:35 AM Re: Action GH vs GH3 [Re: offnote]
EssBrace Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2512
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
Originally Posted By: offnote
I wouldn't choose either one...


Another helpful post, thanks for that.

GH and GH3 are mechanically identical. The only difference is the third sensor on GH3. It works. Anyone can "fiddle around" with the keys and certainly hear the difference it makes to the smoothness of very quickly repeated notes. I think it is only of use with quite a limited repertoire AND if you have the physical talent/ability to exploit the feature. The talent and the repertoire seldom coincide I should think. But it works without a doubt.

For the vast majority of players for the vast majority of the time I think it's a non-issue.

Further the CyberGene's point I find them both to have a higher degree of initial inertia to the key travel than most other actions which gives a slight sensation of excessive "stiction" just as you press the keys in my opinion. But it (GH/GH3) is a good action nonetheless.
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#1902884 - 05/25/12 10:51 AM Re: Action GH vs GH3 [Re: CyberGene]
Qbert Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/29/10
Posts: 328
Loc: Italy
Originally Posted By: CyberGene
In fact, there's something in GH3 I don't like and that's some slight resistance (or hardness) of the keys in the beginning of their motion.


Really I have the same feeling with my CLP 170, but I'd never thought it could depend on GH3... I mean: are you sure that GH is different?


Edited by Qbert (05/25/12 10:51 AM)
_________________________
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#1902889 - 05/25/12 10:56 AM Re: Action GH vs GH3 [Re: Phlox]
CyberGene Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/04/07
Posts: 793
Loc: Sofia, Bulgaria
To be honest, I am not sure GH is different. I've had my P90 somewhere between 2004-2005 and I don't think I've noticed anything similar, however it was only my second digital piano and I might have been less picky and observant compared to now. I'll have to try GH and GH3 side by side to confirm.


Edited by CyberGene (05/25/12 10:57 AM)
_________________________
http://www.myspace.com/evgenykumanov
Current DP: Kawai ES7
Previous DP-s: Kawai MP6, Kawai CA63, Roland RD-700SX, Roland FP-5, Yamaha P90, Korg SP-200, Casio CDP-100

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#1903044 - 05/25/12 03:53 PM Re: Action GH vs GH3 [Re: Phlox]
MacMacMac Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 4209
Loc: North Carolina
Regarding the different feel between GH and GH3 ...

Be aware that GH feels different from GH !
And GH3 feels different from GH3 !

Every piano I've tried had a slightly different feel, even though they had the same keyboard action.

Is this manufacturing variation? Is it age and wear? I don't know. But the differences are noticeable.

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#1903119 - 05/25/12 06:43 PM Re: Action GH vs GH3 [Re: Phlox]
Phlox Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/14/10
Posts: 122
Loc: The Netherlands
If I understand it correct, quick repetition on one key is beter on a GH3 keybed ? or is it impossible on a GH board ??

And how many sensors do the natural wood (Yamaha CP5) and RM3 (Kawai MP10) have ??
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#1903121 - 05/25/12 06:52 PM Re: Action GH vs GH3 [Re: Phlox]
CyberGene Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/04/07
Posts: 793
Loc: Sofia, Bulgaria
Not sure how relevant it is, but I have a Yamaha KX8 keyboard which "sports" the cheapest GHS keyboard and I tested it today with the Khachaturian's toccata and especially that quick repeating Bb note. I noticed that depending on the technique I use, I was able to do extremely quick repetitions of distinguished notes. I can't explain exactly how I did it, it just come as a result of experimentation, but I stretched my forefingers as much as possible (to prevent bending and hence impulse losses), and also tried to transmit the impulse by a slight touch to the key as opposed to a full press to the bottom. To be honest, I have more difficulties with quick repetition on my upright than on this poor Yamaha. And that's the cheapest GHS keyboard action. I am not saying GH3 is not worth it but it's not a critical feature to me.


Edited by CyberGene (05/25/12 06:55 PM)
_________________________
http://www.myspace.com/evgenykumanov
Current DP: Kawai ES7
Previous DP-s: Kawai MP6, Kawai CA63, Roland RD-700SX, Roland FP-5, Yamaha P90, Korg SP-200, Casio CDP-100

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#1903437 - 05/26/12 11:43 AM Re: Action GH vs GH3 [Re: Phlox]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3493
Loc: Pennsylvania
I think it's correct to say that contemporaneous GH and GH3 are mechanically the same. However, as MacMacMac points out, I have noticed some variation in the Yamaha pianos I have played over the years. I think they have changed the resistance/weight of the keys a few times in their history without re-branding it. Or maybe it is an issue of age and wear or manufacturing variation.

All of Kawai's pianos use 2-sensor actions and all of Yamaha's stage pianos (including the CP5) use 2-sensor actions. It's not really all that big a deal. A lot of lowish end Casios have 3 sensor actions, but no one says they are better than the CP5 or MP10.

I actually am not sure what people are referring to when they say 3 sensor actions are smoother. Their only added functionality over a 2-sensor action is to be able to play the same note again without lifting the key high enough that the dampers engage and mute the previous note. It's perfectly analogous to the repetition mechanism in a grand piano, which an upright lacks. It adds speed to a single repeated note (trills, etc.) but it won't change how a scale sounds or feels, for example, at any speed.


Edited by gvfarns (05/26/12 11:43 AM)

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#1903536 - 05/26/12 03:53 PM Re: Action GH vs GH3 [Re: gvfarns]
Soren Jorvang Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 05/03/11
Posts: 2
Originally Posted By: gvfarns
I think it's correct to say that contemporaneous GH and GH3 are mechanically the same. However, as MacMacMac points out, I have noticed some variation in the Yamaha pianos I have played over the years. I think they have changed the resistance/weight of the keys a few times in their history without re-branding it. Or maybe it is an issue of age and wear or manufacturing variation.


I have had the same experience and I don't think it's a matter of wear.

When I first went to try out digital pianos, I came across several older Yamaha floor models (generally CVP series with GH3, I think) with actions that felt very similar to the Roland PHA/PHAII series, which I really like, and unlike the overly heavy GH/GH3 found in the then current YDP and CLP-300 (and now also CLP-400) series.

If there had been a way for me to know exactly which current or previous Yamaha models had the nicer action, I probably would have bought a Yamaha (this was before Roland Supernatural).

With Roland, on the other hand, PHA, PHAII and PHAIII all feel essentially the same to me. There may have been some minor variations, but nothing like what Yamaha has done with GH3 (and GH?).

In fact, comparing those little transparent display models of "Progressive Hammer Action with Escapement" and "PHAII with Escapement", the geometry of the action itself appears to be exactly the same. The only visible difference is one of size and cost reduction of the "escapement" mechanism. These gimmicky little rubber nubs changed from being an add-on rack on the back of the action to being integrated with the keybed frame.

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#1903746 - 05/27/12 02:57 AM Re: Action GH vs GH3 [Re: CyberGene]
pv88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 3062
Originally Posted By: CyberGene
As to the third sensor, my understanding is that it helps for faster repetition on a single key. There are not many cases in which you would need that. What comes to my mind are some parts from the Ebm Toccata by Khatchaturian and to some degree Dm Toccata by Prokofiev and there may be some other classic repertoire pieces as well. Depends on the style you play I guess.


There are some other pieces that do require a decent action, like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjghYFgt8Zk

Wonder if Martha could play this on a digital?

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#1903777 - 05/27/12 05:30 AM Re: Action GH vs GH3 [Re: Phlox]
CyberGene Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/04/07
Posts: 793
Loc: Sofia, Bulgaria
She's a great pianist, one of my all time favorites. thumb
_________________________
http://www.myspace.com/evgenykumanov
Current DP: Kawai ES7
Previous DP-s: Kawai MP6, Kawai CA63, Roland RD-700SX, Roland FP-5, Yamaha P90, Korg SP-200, Casio CDP-100

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#1904055 - 05/27/12 06:46 PM Re: Action GH vs GH3 [Re: gvfarns]
Phlox Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/14/10
Posts: 122
Loc: The Netherlands
Originally Posted By: gvfarns
All of Kawai's pianos use 2-sensor actions and all of Yamaha's stage pianos (including the CP5) use 2-sensor actions.

So with these DP's the key has to be all the way up before it can produce another sound ??
_________________________
10.000 clowns on a rainy day

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#1904096 - 05/27/12 07:35 PM Re: Action GH vs GH3 [Re: Phlox]
toddy Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 2192
Loc: Portugal
On the Roland HP302, which has PHAII (which is by most accounts the same as PHAIII, only lacking this third sensor) you can re-sound the note from about half way between the top and bottom position of the key - above the notch (or escapement jack) but not far above.
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Reaper / NI Komplete 9 Ult. / Audiophile 2496
Mics: SP B1 & MXL V67g/ Monitors: Yamaha HS7s .

Prudence is a rich ugly old maid courted by Incapacity. He who desires, but acts not, breeds pestilence.
William Blake, The Marriage of Heaven & heck

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#1905159 - 05/29/12 05:07 PM Re: Action GH vs GH3 [Re: EssBrace]
Phlox Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/14/10
Posts: 122
Loc: The Netherlands
@ EssBrace:

Is it difficult to go from the N3 to the Mp10 and to the NP88 ??

I would think these actions are worlds apart
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#1905194 - 05/29/12 05:56 PM Re: Action GH vs GH3 [Re: Phlox]
EssBrace Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2512
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
Going from NP88 to N3 and back again is not much fun. MP10 is easy in either direction - it has a very fine action for a stage piano. Although it doesn't feel like the N3 at all the transition between the two causes no problems at all.
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Yamaha CP1

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