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#1904530 - 05/28/12 05:16 PM DP and Piano Grades
The Monkeys Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/13/12
Posts: 400
Loc: Vancouver BC
When I as talking with a sale person in a piano store, he gave me the following chart for which piano is suitable for which level of practice:

Casio Privia -- Grade 3
Yamaha P-95 -- Grade 3
Yamaha P155 -- Grade 4
Yamaha CP300 -- Grade 5-6
Yamaha CP1 -- Grade 8
Clavinova -- Grade 8-9
AvantGrand -- the only thing in the digital world that can handle grade 10 and beyond.

Is this a reasonable (approximate) assessment?

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#1904536 - 05/28/12 05:20 PM Re: DP and Piano Grades [Re: The Monkeys]
Ovidiu M Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/24/10
Posts: 196
Loc: Romania
Clavinovas and P155 share about the same action, so i think that chart is in this respect misleading.


Edited by Ovidiu M (05/28/12 05:21 PM)

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#1904539 - 05/28/12 05:22 PM Re: DP and Piano Grades [Re: The Monkeys]
Kona_V-Piano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 272
My 12 year old Clavinova can handle grade ten level so don't believe everything a salesman tells you. You're missing the Roland V-Piano from your list as well as it too can handle any type of music you throw at it.
_________________________
Roland V-Piano, Yamaha CLP990, Yamaha S90

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#1904555 - 05/28/12 05:45 PM Re: DP and Piano Grades [Re: The Monkeys]
Lefty Chev Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/19/11
Posts: 377
Loc: NY
Isn't the cp300 older technology than the P155 too?

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#1904556 - 05/28/12 05:47 PM Re: DP and Piano Grades [Re: Kona_V-Piano]
The Monkeys Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/13/12
Posts: 400
Loc: Vancouver BC
Sorry for missing V-Piano, no offensive here.
He doesn't sell V-Piano, so it wasn't on his list. When he say "In the digital world", obvious it means his world.

However, when he speak, it refers more less to a category of DPs. I suppose V-Piano will be in a category of its own wink


Edited by The Monkeys (05/28/12 05:48 PM)

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#1904568 - 05/28/12 06:01 PM Re: DP and Piano Grades [Re: The Monkeys]
Kawai James Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8393
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
I don't believe the salesman's chart is terribly accurate. As others have noted, some of those instruments share the same keyboard action and/or sound technology, yet differ only on additional features or price.

The CP1 keyboard action is very playable, but ungraded and not terribly piano-like. I certainly wouldn't recommend it for classical playing, especially not at grade 8 level.

I get the impression that the dealer's chart has been prepared in order to justify the pricing levels of each instrument. There's nothing wrong with doing this, of course, but it's perhaps a little misleading. Regular practise and a passion to learn are arguably more important in piano development than the price of the instrument.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1904569 - 05/28/12 06:03 PM Re: DP and Piano Grades [Re: The Monkeys]
Vectistim Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/17/10
Posts: 312
Loc: Reading, UK
The UK system goes up to 8, at school I got to Grade 6/7 level and my home practice instrument was one of those home organ things with sprung keys and 3 1/2 octaves per manual set one octave apart.

As long as someone gets occasional use of an acoustic (more for familiarity purposes) I'd say all of them can get you through the grade system (subject to the addition of a three pedal system - really I'd say a two pedal, but a three pedal system is more likely in digital land)

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#1904660 - 05/28/12 08:58 PM Re: DP and Piano Grades [Re: The Monkeys]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3670
Loc: North Carolina
The chart maps grade level to piano price! So if you're better at the piano, you should spend more! Marketing genious!

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#1905055 - 05/29/12 01:28 PM Re: DP and Piano Grades [Re: The Monkeys]
The Monkeys Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/13/12
Posts: 400
Loc: Vancouver BC
I was a bit skeptical about his chart and also realized it's close association with piano price. However, the traditional wisdom is "you get what you paid for", so I thought there might be some truth in his chart, and thought it might be an interesting discussion here. Now I realized the question maybe a little bit too naive.

My 8 year old son just started his piano lessons, he is loving it, and is counting the days for his next session (to learn the next songs). We practice play together most of the days. We play games, close eyes and listen to the other person, and count the mistakes and say the kind of mistakes (note mistake, time mistake, touch too light/too strong etc), and celebrate when one reaches perfection (to our standard). We are having a lot of fun.

Nothing replaces the passion and practice. However, within my ability, I don't want the equipment becoming the limiting factor for him. I knew literally nothing about piano, acoustic or digital, 6 months ago when I got my Casio CDP-120. I got it mostly because it was on sale, I touched the key and it sounded great, so I brought it home for Christmas. It sparked the interest in the family, so it has served the purpose very well. I still know very little about music and piano, however I realized CDP-120 is not as good as I once thought it was. For myself, I will probably keep the Casio and fiddle with PianoTeq just for fun. But for him, I think I need to get him something better (and maybe eventually get an acoustic at some point). I am watching for signs closely and planing for the next step.

I am thinking of putting him to the grade system, and my first goal is to get him through the next couple of years or so, so we will stay digital for now (hoping in a few years the digital will advance to the point that I don't have to pick sides). I know that everyone says "try and see which one you like", but at our level we can't tell the subtle differences (yet) and would need to rely more on advices.

Cheers


Edited by The Monkeys (05/29/12 01:34 PM)

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#1905068 - 05/29/12 02:14 PM Re: DP and Piano Grades [Re: Vectistim]
PianoStudent88 Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 2978
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: Vectistim
(subject to the addition of a three pedal system - really I'd say a two pedal, but a three pedal system is more likely in digital land)

I've already found two pieces (by Satie) where I want a proper sostenuto pedal, so I would say don't settle for two pedals if you don't have to.
_________________________
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#1905096 - 05/29/12 03:18 PM Re: DP and Piano Grades [Re: The Monkeys]
Vectistim Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/17/10
Posts: 312
Loc: Reading, UK
Fair enough, but personally I tend not to do much modern stuff

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#1905200 - 05/29/12 06:04 PM Re: DP and Piano Grades [Re: PianoStudent88]
The Monkeys Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/13/12
Posts: 400
Loc: Vancouver BC
Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88
....don't settle for two pedals......

I guess that would effectively eliminate the highly regarded P155, which as a stage piano, does not support the 3 paddle system.

Privia 130 at $599 already include a stand with paddle bar, and it sounds and looks nice. The furniture styled AP model are essentially the same as the Priva models, in different look, is that right? The price looks too good to be true, what is the catch? Is there any truth to it that they only support the practice to Grade 3 level?

For Yamaha, P95 can be setup with the paddle bar with 3 paddles. But reading this forum, as wonderful as it is, many thought the action is too light for a learner. Then with Yamaha, I would have to go with the furniture styled YDPs or the next step up to Clavinova, which comes in a large price range. I am sure there is a huge difference between the entry level model and the higher end ones, especially in the speaker system. But for the students, would the differences make a difference for the study? Should I believe the sale person that the are OK for grade 8-9 level of practices (with only occasional access to a acoustic)?

I am yet to find a place that carries Kawai digital in my area, can I suppose even the entry level of Kawai (MP6? with stand) will be sufficient for the stage of the learning?

I am sure Roland products are wonderful, but even with the highly regarded (steinway grand like) action, it would be a bit too light for student at learning stage. Is that a fair statement?

Many thanks



Edited by The Monkeys (05/29/12 06:06 PM)

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#1905205 - 05/29/12 06:30 PM Re: DP and Piano Grades [Re: The Monkeys]
Vectistim Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/17/10
Posts: 312
Loc: Reading, UK
Originally Posted By: The Monkeys

Privia 130 at $599 already include a stand with paddle bar, and it sounds and looks nice. The furniture styled AP model are essentially the same as the Priva models, in different look, is that right? The price looks too good to be true, what is the catch? Is there any truth to it that they only support the practice to Grade 3 level?

That's essentially it, although the furniture versions tend to have larger speakers, but I'm not sure that's needed, I've used my PX-330 (which has a marginally different speaker setup) to accompany a choir of about a dozen without issue.

Personally I reckon any of the machines on the list will be sufficient to get through the grade system (as long as you get to play with an acoustic occasionally)

I don't think I've ever had to play something which required the use of a sostenuto pedal (the middle one of three), you may find this informative on the pedals:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_pedal#Sostenuto_pedal
Certainly for the first few years the pedals will be pretty much irrelevant.

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#1905220 - 05/29/12 07:09 PM Re: DP and Piano Grades [Re: The Monkeys]
zrtf90 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 2230
Loc: Ireland (ex England)
The CDP-120 may not be the best instrument out there but you're not really going to do much better until you get to the quality DP's, i.e. Yamaha Clavinovas, Roland HP's or Kawai CA's. It certainly isn't worth upgrading to a Yamaha P series.

What you have is already good enough to get to grade 10 especially if you have regular access to an acoustic piano or a quality digital for lessons. The sound may not be of the quality you might prefer but it does give reliable feedback as to how you're pressing the keys. You don't really need much more than that. You certainly don't need an acoustic to get to grade 10.

As to the Roland action being too light for learning on, this is false. Every pianist gets familiar with a limited range of actions as they learn. It really doesn't take long to adapt to a different instrument and if your son is also taking lessons on an acoustic I'd really have no concerns. As long as a light touch produces a soft tone and a heavy touch produces a loud tone most DP keyboards will do as good a job or better than most acoustic uprights.

I play a wide range of music from Bach to Brahms and I've never had call to use a sostenuto pedal. Unless you're using an actual grand piano there isn't much call for the soft pedal either. I seriously doubt the need for the middle pedal in an exam up to grade 8 (ABRSM) or 10 (US/Can equivalent).

Save your money until you're ready to really spend and get a good quality DP. Your CDP-120 is good for a few years yet.
_________________________
Richard

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#1905234 - 05/29/12 07:38 PM Re: DP and Piano Grades [Re: The Monkeys]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3670
Loc: North Carolina
I don't agree with this at all. One pedal is quite adequate. There is precious little music that calls for a sostenuto pedal. And there's not much call for the una-corda pedal either. A single damper pedal is quite enough for most music. A beginner won't use anything but the one damper pedal.

And, keep in mind that most upright pianos don't have a proper sostenuto pedal either. That third, center pedal is usually a practice mute (except for some of the most expensive uprights). Even some of the baby grand pianos lack a proper sostenuto.

So don't eliminate the P155 on the basis of its single pedal.
Originally Posted By: The Monkeys
Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88
....don't settle for two pedals......

I guess that would effectively eliminate the highly regarded P155, which as a stage piano, does not support the 3 paddle system.

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#1905235 - 05/29/12 07:41 PM Re: DP and Piano Grades [Re: The Monkeys]
offnote Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/10/10
Posts: 258
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: The Monkeys
When I as talking with a sale person in a piano store, he gave me the following chart for which piano is suitable for which level of practice:

Casio Privia -- Grade 3
Yamaha P-95 -- Grade 3
Yamaha P155 -- Grade 4
Yamaha CP300 -- Grade 5-6
Yamaha CP1 -- Grade 8
Clavinova -- Grade 8-9
AvantGrand -- the only thing in the digital world that can handle grade 10 and beyond.

Is this a reasonable (approximate) assessment?



no.

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#1905378 - 05/30/12 04:19 AM Re: DP and Piano Grades [Re: The Monkeys]
Providence Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/29/10
Posts: 135
Hi,
I see that the Yamaha P-155 here is rated as "Grade 4" level. I presume this would also include the CP33 as it shares the same action as the P-155. I have never owned a p155/CP33 but I found the action to be great and very piano like (Also a little heavier than most). Was any particular reason given as to why these Yamaha's would not cut it from Grade 5 onwards please? I am very interested to know as I have pretty much decided on the CP33 as my practice instrument and m about to purchase.
Thanks in advance...

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#1905386 - 05/30/12 05:17 AM Re: DP and Piano Grades [Re: The Monkeys]
Epeios Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/28/11
Posts: 28
Loc: France
I was a time interested by the P155 (to replace a P85), after having once tried its predecessor, the P140, which came with the FC3 pedal, which supports continuous pedaling. But the P155 comes with the FC4 pedal, which does NOT support continuous pedaling. I found this very more annoying that a missing sostenuto or una corda pedal. If I had buy the P155, I had buy a FC3 pedal too (but I ended with a Roland HP 207 smile ).


Edited by Epeios (05/30/12 05:19 AM)
_________________________
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#1905406 - 05/30/12 06:45 AM Re: DP and Piano Grades [Re: Epeios]
Providence Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/29/10
Posts: 135
Originally Posted By: Epeios
If I had buy the P155, I had buy a FC3 pedal too (but I ended with a Roland HP 207 smile ).

Ok... the P155 supports half pedalling it's just that you did not like having to buy a continuous pedal separately? Was there anything about the action that deterred you in any way?

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#1905520 - 05/30/12 11:57 AM Re: DP and Piano Grades [Re: Providence]
The Monkeys Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/13/12
Posts: 400
Loc: Vancouver BC
Originally Posted By: Providence
Hi,
Was any particular reason given as to why these Yamaha's would not cut it from Grade 5 onwards please?


The sale person didn't get to the details of each model. With his chart, grade 5 onward needs wooden keys. However, many posters, with great reputation here, pointed out that the chart is more of a sale tool to sell higher end stuff, and shouldn't be taken too seriously.

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#1905522 - 05/30/12 12:01 PM Re: DP and Piano Grades [Re: Providence]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3670
Loc: North Carolina
Though the chart pretends to link each piano to the player's skill level, this is pure nonsense.
It's simply a way to induce the buyer to spend the greatest amount of money.
Originally Posted By: Providence
Was any particular reason given as to why these Yamaha's would not cut it from Grade 5 onwards please?

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#1905624 - 05/30/12 03:27 PM Re: DP and Piano Grades [Re: The Monkeys]
Providence Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/29/10
Posts: 135
Caveat Emptor I guess.....

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#1905748 - 05/30/12 09:08 PM Re: DP and Piano Grades [Re: MacMacMac]
KLSinCT Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/07/12
Posts: 148
Loc: Stonington, CT USA
Originally Posted By: MacMacMac
Though the chart pretends to link each piano to the player's skill level, this is pure nonsense.
It's simply a way to induce the buyer to spend the greatest amount of money.
Originally Posted By: Providence
Was any particular reason given as to why these Yamaha's would not cut it from Grade 5 onwards please?


+1 thumb
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#1905871 - 05/31/12 04:27 AM Re: DP and Piano Grades [Re: The Monkeys]
toddy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 1320
Loc: Portugal
With his chart, grade 5 onward needs wooden keys.

Absolute stuff and nonsense. What possible grounds can there be for this? It's far sillier than saying that no great work of art could ever be painted except with oils.

Poppycock.
_________________________
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Mics: SP B1 & MXL V67g/ Alesis MicTube Preamp/ Xenyx302/ Yamaha HS7s .

"Only a fool is fooled" pv88, All Fools' Day 2014.

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#1906211 - 05/31/12 07:27 PM Re: DP and Piano Grades [Re: The Monkeys]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3474
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: The Monkeys
When I as talking with a sale person in a piano store, he gave me the following chart for which piano is suitable for which level of practice:

Casio Privia -- Grade 3
Yamaha P-95 -- Grade 3
Yamaha P155 -- Grade 4
Yamaha CP300 -- Grade 5-6
Yamaha CP1 -- Grade 8
Clavinova -- Grade 8-9
AvantGrand -- the only thing in the digital world that can handle grade 10 and beyond.

Is this a reasonable (approximate) assessment?



This list reflects price, but price doesn't correspond to suitability for a particular level of playing. For example the CP300 and P155 are exactly the same and the clavinova is just a hair better if at all.

For all their differences, I would say all these pianos are suitable for play up to a reasonably high level, and then if you are seeking to be a concert pianist, you need to get an acoustic grand. Basically, these pianos are all as good as an upright (though the bottom two are iffy). If an upright is suitable, so will these pianos be, more or less.

The AvantGrand probably is better than an acoustic upright in some ways, so I will exclude it from what I just said...it probably is more suitable to a higher level of playing than the others are.

If I were to group these I would say the first two are low end, the rest are acceptable, and the AG is outstanding. Beyond that personal taste is more important than ranking.


Edited by gvfarns (05/31/12 07:30 PM)

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#1906269 - 05/31/12 10:40 PM Re: DP and Piano Grades [Re: gvfarns]
torhu Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/09/12
Posts: 176
I don't think any of those can compete with a good upright. Maybe in terms of action (I know Roland's PHA III can do that), but not in terms of sound. How good the upright needs to be to better than various DPs, I don't know. As always, it's a question of money and tradeoffs.

People tend to forget that a digital usually just plays back a recording. Which means that you're missing a lot of the nuances that an acoustic can give you, even though it sounds nice enough when you're listening as opposed to playing.

There are digitals that model acoustics too, but they always seem to have a sound that is not to everyone's taste. Other than that, I don't know what they are capable of. Haven't tried one yet. Maybe they will eventually evolve into a being a good solution to "the piano problem".
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#1906308 - 06/01/12 12:22 AM Re: DP and Piano Grades [Re: torhu]
The Monkeys Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/13/12
Posts: 400
Loc: Vancouver BC
I didn't intent to start another digital vs acoustic debate.
I guess the conclusion is, if a student, with a current model of DP as the primary practice instrument and occasional access to an acrostic (like weekly lessons), doesn't learn well at the early stage, the DP is not to be blamed. The category of P155 and above, can carry a student fairly far.

This probably answers my question, I think I will keep the CDP-120 for another year or so, then will get a mid category DP, somewhere between P155 or CN33 but the next generation, to get the boy going, until he developers a personal taste, then we will review it again, we might have moved by then and might be able to get an acoustic in addition to the digital.

A side note, when we play at night when my younger son is sleeping, we use headphones, one connected to the piano directly, another connected to PianoTeq, my 8 year old clearly prefers the PianoTeq. However, he prefers not to use headphone, and has never complained about the CDP yet.

Cheers


Edited by The Monkeys (06/01/12 12:38 AM)

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#1906435 - 06/01/12 09:12 AM Re: DP and Piano Grades [Re: The Monkeys]
Providence Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/29/10
Posts: 135
On the Yamaha site I found the following.....

----------------------------------------------------------------
GH / GHE (Graded Hammer effect):
One of Yamaha's premium weighted actions, provides greater accuracy for faster repetetive passages required by intermediate and advanced pianists. Professional grade components provide a smoother,quiter mechanism when striking the keys.
GHS (Graded hammer Standard):
Well suited for the beginner pianist and delivers the graded, weighted touch piano teachers recommend for building proper technique for playing acoustic pianos.
GH3:
Like GH / GHE, but GH3 also swings back faster, like high quality piano keys. GH3 allows the player to feel the weight of the key when depressed a second time, even when the player has not completely released the key after the first push of the key....
----------------------------------------------------------------

So seemingly the GH/GHE & GH3 actions would cater for "intermediate and advanced pianists"

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#1906436 - 06/01/12 09:14 AM Re: DP and Piano Grades [Re: The Monkeys]
Providence Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/29/10
Posts: 135
So to take Grade 8 for as advanced, then the p155/CP33 would suffice according to Yamaha...

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#1906538 - 06/01/12 12:24 PM Re: DP and Piano Grades [Re: The Monkeys]
LMKawai Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 180
Loc: Madrid, Spain
You are missing all the KAWAI range, specially the CS series smile
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