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#1908272 - 06/04/12 02:52 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
BDB Online   content
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There are only two possible standards for a twelve-tone system: Just intonation, which is unmusical and not well defined, and equal temperament. We can define every other option from how much they diverge from just intonation, which is what one does with beats, or by how much they diverge from equal temperament, which is what one does with cents.
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#1908276 - 06/04/12 02:57 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
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Registered: 03/10/08
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Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty

ET is not superior, the standard, or preferred, it is merely another option.


This is correct in part. ET became mainstream or the generally accepted norm much like VHS did instead of the Beta system which was a much better format. There was no giant conspiracy of musical geniuses hidden in some dark room making it so…. Why does this happen?

Because this is what the market place decided it wanted. The consumer asked for it so much it became eventually the mainstream temperament. Most technicians previous to 1980 or so learned ET. It was the standard for exam purposes also in the tech schools.


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#1908289 - 06/04/12 03:34 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Emmery]
Minnesota Marty Online   content

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Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 6120
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Emmery,

Thank you for your lovely rant.

I am curious about something. You claim that ET is preferred by the vast majority of musicians. Do you believe that vocalists and instrumentalists are not musicians? They vastly outnumber keyboard players and certainly do not adhere to ET.

Popularity does not equal superiority. Just think of the various fads we have all encountered. Pet rocks were very popular. They then must be superior to a feral rock.

It is true that the laws of physics will not change. That is why ET is a misnomer. It is a temperament, for sure, but it is not as equal as presented by you or others.

Even a piano tuned to your specification would not sound well in outer space. In fact, it would suffer from another law of physics. It's that gravity thing, ya know. There is another problem and we are back to physics again. Without an atmosphere, you could not ascertain whether it was ET or not.

Obviously my deductions differ from yours. You have yet to convince me that I am misdirected.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#1908297 - 06/04/12 03:49 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Minnesota Marty Online   content

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Dan,

I do agree with what you are saying and I like your analogy.

With VHS vs Beta, the public made the choice on cost rather than quality. I don't think that is an issue with tuning, but then, I may be wrong. ET seems to be the chosen "standard" by the tuning community, and not necessarily by the consumer. I would assume that most customers never are given the option.

The big thing is that it is a service, rather than a product. Other than at piano forums such as this one, there is no easily available "Consumer Guide" for selecting a temperament.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#1908300 - 06/04/12 03:58 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: RonTuner]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1053
Loc: Sicily - Italy
Originally Posted By: RonTuner
Alfredo, perhaps you are unfamiliar with "the blues"???

Ron Koval


Ron, can you expand on that? What is it that you mean to say?


Edited by alfredo capurso (06/04/12 03:58 PM)
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#1908302 - 06/04/12 04:03 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Emmery Offline
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Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2330
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Emmery,

Thank you for your lovely rant.

I am curious about something. You claim that ET is preferred by the vast majority of musicians. Do you believe that vocalists and instrumentalists are not musicians? They vastly outnumber keyboard players and certainly do not adhere to ET.

Popularity does not equal superiority. Just think of the various fads we have all encountered. Pet rocks were very popular. They then must be superior to a feral rock.

It is true that the laws of physics will not change. That is why ET is a misnomer. It is a temperament, for sure, but it is not as equal as presented by you or others.

Even a piano tuned to your specification would not sound well in outer space. In fact, it would suffer from another law of physics. It's that gravity thing, ya know. There is another problem and we are back to physics again. Without an atmosphere, you could not ascertain whether it was ET or not.

Obviously my deductions differ from yours. You have yet to convince my that I am misdirected.


Sorry for my generalization Marty, we are in a Piano forum, not a vocalist, bagpipe or other instrument forum. The word "pianist" would have been more precise and the statement still stands true. The vast majority of pianists play in ET.

Marty, there is a distinct difference between "popularity" and "fad". Popularity is strictly related to something being well liked in large numbers. A "fad" however is associated with a temporary novelty that attracts those large numbers of people. As the novelty wears off, so the numbers drop.

ET is popular because 50 years ago aproximately the same large portion of pianists used it. Non-ET tunings on the other hand seem to pop up every 5-10 years or so and have always dissappeared into obscurity as soon as the novelty (if any)wore off. Only time will tell if something is popular or a fad. So far ET has faired better than others.

It is unfair to bring semantics into the scheme of things when criticising ET. Yes, the way we execute it on a piano is not perfect. But in the same light, EBVT under the same scrutiny would deserve to get the letter "P" put in front of it standing for "Partially"...it addresses only limited intervals in its equal beating capacity.
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#1908304 - 06/04/12 04:04 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
alfredo capurso Offline
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Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1053
Loc: Sicily - Italy
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
...Other than at piano forums such as this one, there is no easily available "Consumer Guide" for selecting a temperament.


MM, I'd "select" a temperament by ear, how about you?
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#1908309 - 06/04/12 04:19 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: alfredo capurso]
Minnesota Marty Online   content

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Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
...Other than at piano forums such as this one, there is no easily available "Consumer Guide" for selecting a temperament.


MM, I'd "select" a temperament by ear, how about you?


I would select by ear also. I am not a tuner and I have never been able to find a TemperamentMart to make a comprehensive choice. This is a thread which I started. Please read the beginning of the thread and you will have the answer.
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Marty in Minnesota

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#1908320 - 06/04/12 04:37 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Emmery]
Minnesota Marty Online   content

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Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 6120
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Emmery,

When there are discussions of this sort, word choice is very important. One can't just toss it off as semantics. That is just an excuse.

Yes, the majority pianists play on pianos tuned to some adaptation of ET. That is not necessarily a choice, however. Please read my recent replies for clarification.

I am not a tuner, but I still am aware that all of the three variations of EBVT are, and have been, easily available in totally complete form. Mr. Bremmer is making the assumption that a competant tuner can work from the basics of the temperaments and use standard practice to complete the tuning.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#1908334 - 06/04/12 05:00 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1053
Loc: Sicily - Italy
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
...Other than at piano forums such as this one, there is no easily available "Consumer Guide" for selecting a temperament.


MM, I'd "select" a temperament by ear, how about you?


I would select by ear also. I am not a tuner and I have never been able to find a TemperamentMart to make a comprehensive choice. This is a thread which I started. Please read the beginning of the thread and you will have the answer.


MM, I did read the beginning of this thread of yours, perhaps you prefer to go back there.

..."Here is a recounting of my aural awakening.

In 2004 I engaged Tim Farley to do a total rebuild of the family 1920 Steinway-M. The job was to be a gift to my mother as she was elderly and I wanted her to have the very best. The piano was magnificent after the work and upon arrival. The subsiquent tunings did not have the life and color as when it first arrived and I was baffled. The piano was in excellent tune, but ......
This is about the same time as I joined PW. I learned so much here, and even gained an understanding of temperament. At that time, I assumed that ET was the same as Well Temperament. In conservatory, the concept of temperaments was discussed, but it was not specific.
After my mother passed, the piano went back to Farley's for temporary storage. In preparation for transport to Peoria, IL, I asked for a fresh tuning and a detailed regulation. I could not believe what I was hearing out of a little "M." OMG - The Beethoven Waldstein sang with an incredible voice and the action knocked my sox off.
Within a few days, I called Tim to extend my thanks and share my excitement. He was also pleased with the voice and the action. He shared that the reason that it had such a glorious voice was that he had tuned it to one of Bill's Temperaments (unspecified). Aha! He tried to get Bill but he was booked."...

All the above only makes me understand that you did not like TF's subsequent tunings. Alternatively, that TF's tunings got better, thanks to BB.

..."It was the writing of Mr. Bremmer which peeked my interest. I first ran across his web site when I was in the process of selecting a rebuilder. That site was the first time I was aware of different temperaments applied to a piano. When I contacted him, he was the one to recommend Tim Farley. I was pleased to discover that Bill was a contributor at PW and I could learn more."...

The above is off Topic.

..."After the piano settled into its new space, it was time for a tuning. I got some good recommendations and selected a tuner/tech. He started by doing some playing to acquaint himself with the piano. He looked at me and said, "The Bremmer EBVT Temperament sounds gorgeous on this piano.

I knew my piano was in good hands and good ears."...

So you are saying that when "it was time for a tuning"..."The Bremmer EBVT Temperament" sounded gorgeous on your piano.(?) Let me ask you: why did you want your piano tuned again?

..."There was no reason that Tim Farley needed to contact me for permission to tune my piano to other than ET."..

That is good. Let me ask you: ...other than who's ET?

..."Trust, gentlemen, is trust."...

I may agree.

..."Word of mouth is what it is all about."

Not for piano tuners, MM, especially not for aural piano tuners.

Regards, a.c.


Edited by alfredo capurso (06/04/12 05:05 PM)
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#1908339 - 06/04/12 05:15 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Cinnamonbear Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3724
Loc: Rockford, IL
Originally Posted By: Silverwood Pianos
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty

ET is not superior, the standard, or preferred, it is merely another option.


This is correct in part. ET became mainstream or the generally accepted norm [...] Because this is what the market place decided it wanted. The consumer asked for it so much it became eventually the mainstream temperament. [...].




Dan, can you provide a citation for this? I don't mean to be confrontational at all. I have often wondered just how ET became so mainstream. I am curious to know if what you are saying can be borne out by some kind of primary or secondary source, or is the notion that consumers asked for it a supposition? Thanks!

--Andy
_________________________
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#1908357 - 06/04/12 05:42 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Olek Offline
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Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 6369
Loc: France
Pills for thrills ! the infamous "piano tuner pill" strike again !

To be honest (when you read that now you can be sure I lie) the worst ear paired people I've met where musicians, mostly pianists for a reason that escapes me totally .

I've see one that was expecting to play in chamber music on a piano with new strings and no tuning for 12 months more than 1 tone flat)

And many who hear music in their brain but not in their ears.
I have seen "the piano of the piano teacher" (!) (better than the dance hall piano but often not much)

The piano of the one who have so good ear that he prefer to have a totally false piano than one which is just a little off

There are a few, really a few pianists who are really attentive to the justness. And it is better for the pianist generally speaking as good tuners are really not the most common specie to find (stability wise, but also for general intonation).
Also, a good tuning will take more time than a quick done approximative job, be it with ETD help (in fact it would be probably faster by ear)
SO I dont say many cannot hear correctly, but they where not in the correct musical environment often, and it is not their fault.

The piano tuner have a huge responsibility, as pianos are the instruments used to learn justness to children, in schools/music schools. (if one analyze the tuning of many digital pianos as those are used today, many of them are really less well tuned than a real piano)

That said, a good tuning, when done often enough, will stay very musical and for a long time, the initial coherence is probably giving some stability.

I always wondered if the fact that mostly only concert tuners are involved in finding a way to have a "definitive" tuning is not due to the need to have the customer calling back sooner.


Many pianists dont expect to have a concert tuning every time (or they dont have the budget for) , but they need an instrument with some tone and stability. They seem to prefer to have an evened touch /tone than an absolute superb tuning, if time is constrained I choose for the action and hammers first, when it is time for (knowing my tuning can stay put enough for a few months more helps to be in a secured feeling about that).
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#1908361 - 06/04/12 05:47 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Olek Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 6369
Loc: France
The only thing that changed is the use of the FBI to keep a control on the opening of the octaves. The ladder of thirds temperament provided that. more precision. AT some point it changed the idea of the temperament, and it became a set of compromizes. That is what make sit sound so unfocused and lacking congruency.

But the same tools allow to make a nice job too. There only the musical ear/culture of the tuner can make the difference.
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#1908365 - 06/04/12 05:52 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: alfredo capurso]
Minnesota Marty Online   content

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Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 6120
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Hi Alfredo,

Let me try to answer your questions. I was not totally clear in some areas.

I didn't mean to imply that Mr. Farleys tunings were not to my liking. It is just the opposite. TF only tuned the piano when it was in his shop, before shipping, on both occasions. The subsequent tunings were by another tuner in my mother's home. It is three hours distant from Tim's shop. Tim's tunings were based on BB's EBVT. To the best of my knowledge, BB has never tuned my piano. It was another tuner who tuned the piano to ET and I found it dull in comparison. That was after the piano was delivered.

Three years after the piano was rebuilt, it was returned to Tim for temporary storage. After removal from storage, it was then that the piano received a full regulation and fresh tuning.

I'm not sure how anything can be off topic - it's my thread. It was included to form the topic and my introduction to temperaments other than ET.

After a piano settles in to a new environment for about a month, it is always my practice to have it tuned. The question of "who's ET" confuses me. The tuner is irrevelant. It is the difference between ET and alternate temperaments to which I am referring.

I shall remember that word of mouth is not important to tuners. It seems to me it would only cut down on new customers for you. However, if a pianist asks me for a tuner recommendation, I will still pass on the names of those that I respect and trust.
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Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#1908371 - 06/04/12 05:59 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1053
Loc: Sicily - Italy

Andy, perhaps (by now) your reading was enough for you to acknowledge that ET has (so far) been more of a targeted concept than an ubiquitous and/or univocal practice.

I'm sure it will not be difficult for you to understand that musicians were (and will be) aiming at a temperament that allows modulations throughout all keys, while keeping "wolf" intervals out, a temperament that can (hopefully) open to full resonance and sound intonation.

The above does not mean that the tuning of a WT cannot be better than an ET attempt, as that may depend on the individual ET's execution.

In my opinion, as a musician you'd better comment on piano tuners than commenting on temperaments. Do you know what I mean?
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alfredo

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#1908382 - 06/04/12 06:10 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Minnesota Marty Online   content

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 6120
Loc: Rochester MN
I am now totally lost in ESL translation.

I have no clue!

Does the FBI tune pianos or do they just take pills?
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Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#1908391 - 06/04/12 06:22 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1053
Loc: Sicily - Italy

MM wrote: ..."I didn't mean to imply that Mr. Farleys tunings were not to my liking. It is just the opposite. TF only tuned the piano when it was in his shop, before shipping, on both occasions. The subsequent tunings were by another tuner in my mother's home. It is three hours distant from Tim's shop. Tim's tunings were based on BB's EBVT. To the best of my knowledge, BB has never tuned my piano. It was another tuner who tuned the piano to ET and I found it dull in comparison. That was after the piano was delivered."...

Why do you imply ET instead of the tuner who tuned your piano to (?) ET?

..."Three years after the piano was rebuilt, it was returned to Tim for temporary storage. After removal from storage, it was then that the piano received a full regulation and fresh tuning."...

Yes, that's clear enough.

..."I'm not sure how anything can be off topic - it's my thread. It was included to form the topic and my introduction to temperaments other than ET."...

In my mind, being in your own thread... does not mean that you can write what ever goes through your mind, unless you want to waste readers' expectations.

..."After a piano settles in to a new environment for about a month, it is always my practice to have it tuned. The question of "who's ET" confuses me. The tuner is irrevelant. It is the difference between ET and alternate temperaments to which I am referring."...

For me your statement "The tuner is irrelevant" says it all.

..."I shall remember that word of mouth is not important to tuners. It seems to me it would only cut down on new customers for you."...

MM, "word of mouth" has its meaning amongst customers, not when tuners - especially aural tuners - want to analyze temperaments and tuning issues. Perhaps I misunderstood (Edit: or you have missed the "Pianist Corner" forum).

..."However, if a pianist asks me for a tuner recommendation, I will still pass on the names of those that I respect and trust."...

I would do the same.


Edited by alfredo capurso (06/04/12 06:39 PM)
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#1908400 - 06/04/12 06:52 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: alfredo capurso]
Minnesota Marty Online   content

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 6120
Loc: Rochester MN
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso

Why do you imply ET instead of the tuner who tuned your piano to (?) ET?

For me your statement "The tuner is irrelevant" says it all.

MM, "word of mouth" has its meaning amongst customers, not when tuners - especially aural tuners - want to analyze temperaments and tuning issues. Perhaps I misunderstood.


Why on earth would you want to know the name of a tuner who happens to be thousands of miles away from you? It was years ago, I did not hire him, he was my mother's tuner, I have no idea what his name is and HIS NAME is irrelevant to me.

Sorry that you don't consider "word of mouth" to be free advertizing. Yes, you misunderstood.

Thank you for your critique of my mastery of English, choice of content, and syntactical usage.
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Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#1908480 - 06/04/12 10:00 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
RonTuner Online   content
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Registered: 01/21/04
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Originally Posted By: Silverwood Pianos
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty

ET is not superior, the standard, or preferred, it is merely another option.




Because this is what the market place decided it wanted. The consumer asked for it so much it became eventually the mainstream temperament.




I don't believe this to be a true statement with any historical backing. Do you perhaps have this documented somewhere?

Ron Koval
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@ronkoval

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#1908489 - 06/04/12 10:20 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
BDB Online   content
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We definitely have documentation that equal temperament was standard in the Victorian Era. It is in Helmholtz. I do not believe there is any documentation of any standard temperament other than equal temperament ever.
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#1908501 - 06/04/12 10:53 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: BDB]
DoelKees Offline
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Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1540
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: BDB
We definitely have documentation that equal temperament was standard in the Victorian Era. It is in Helmholtz. I do not believe there is any documentation of any standard temperament other than equal temperament ever.

We know for sure meantone was used up to the late baroque for keyboards. Lutes were in ET, which is why they never play together in for example Monteverdi.

Kees

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#1908508 - 06/04/12 11:06 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
RonTuner Online   content
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Registered: 01/21/04
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No, not whether it existed, or was tuned or even aimed for - I'd like to see some evidence of the market demanding ET. I believe the widespread use of ET came about because of vocation of the "professional" piano tuner, as opposed to any need or desire by any musicians or piano owners. We just codified and tested it right into the mainstream...

Ron Koval
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@ronkoval

my piano videos:
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#1908515 - 06/04/12 11:34 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: DoelKees]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
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Loc: Oakland
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Originally Posted By: BDB
We definitely have documentation that equal temperament was standard in the Victorian Era. It is in Helmholtz. I do not believe there is any documentation of any standard temperament other than equal temperament ever.

We know for sure meantone was used up to the late baroque for keyboards. Lutes were in ET, which is why they never play together in for example Monteverdi.

Kees


But there were all sorts of meantones, even more than one on the same instrument. There was no standard temperament.
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Semipro Tech

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#1908518 - 06/04/12 11:40 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: RonTuner]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 20766
Loc: Oakland
Originally Posted By: RonTuner
No, not whether it existed, or was tuned or even aimed for - I'd like to see some evidence of the market demanding ET. I believe the widespread use of ET came about because of vocation of the "professional" piano tuner, as opposed to any need or desire by any musicians or piano owners. We just codified and tested it right into the mainstream...

Ron Koval


There was a need for standardization as pianos became so difficult to tune that most people could not change temperaments as desired. As I pointed out, the options are limited.

There are other instruments, like harps, which are tuned when they are constructed permanently. I believe that equal temperament was standard for them ever since Erard invented the double-action harp.
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#1908539 - 06/05/12 12:31 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Cinnamonbear]
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2371
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
Originally Posted By: Cinnamonbear
Originally Posted By: Silverwood Pianos
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty

ET is not superior, the standard, or preferred, it is merely another option.


This is correct in part. ET became mainstream or the generally accepted norm [...] Because this is what the market place decided it wanted. The consumer asked for it so much it became eventually the mainstream temperament. [...].




Dan, can you provide a citation for this? I don't mean to be confrontational at all. I have often wondered just how ET became so mainstream. I am curious to know if what you are saying can be borne out by some kind of primary or secondary source, or is the notion that consumers asked for it a supposition? Thanks!

--Andy




This book will tell you how it became the recognized standard for at least most of the 20th century.

When I apprenticed in 1976, according to my mentor, there was only one temperament; ET.
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#1908541 - 06/05/12 12:38 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: BDB]
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2371
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
Originally Posted By: BDB
Originally Posted By: RonTuner
No, not whether it existed, or was tuned or even aimed for - I'd like to see some evidence of the market demanding ET. I believe the widespread use of ET came about because of vocation of the "professional" piano tuner, as opposed to any need or desire by any musicians or piano owners. We just codified and tested it right into the mainstream...

Ron Koval


There was a need for standardization as pianos became so difficult to tune that most people could not change temperaments as desired. As I pointed out, the options are limited.

There are other instruments, like harps, which are tuned when they are constructed permanently. I believe that equal temperament was standard for them ever since Erard invented the double-action harp.


According to Temperament, ET evolved through the difficulties with playing different keys/scales on the organ and its predecessor instruments more than anything else, and the biggest fights over it went on during the Renaissance. For hundreds of years, ET was considered heretical because pure fifths were a gift from God, and to alter them in a tonal compromise to balance other keys was marring what God had given us. Eventually, as music grew in complexity with polyphony, ET became accepted as the only way to achieve tonal balance.
_________________________
Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
[url=www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind]www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind[/url]

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#1908545 - 06/05/12 12:48 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Olek Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 6369
Loc: France
What do say that book?
Your mentor may be speaking of pianos I suppose. saying that thete is only one temp can only apply to them. Harpsichords where always tuned differently even if a modern era have probably see the absence of HT for a time
Even today Et is widely asked ( to avoid wolves) when tuning old instruments for baroco music. Musicians ask for Et with aan air that make me think their Ut experiences where not that good.
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#1908546 - 06/05/12 12:51 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 20766
Loc: Oakland
I would not take the Isacoff book as absolutely reliable. But there is plenty of other evidence.
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Semipro Tech

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#1908547 - 06/05/12 12:51 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2371
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
Isaac, yes, my mentor was referring only to pianos.

The book discusses the evolution of ET via all of those old temperaments.
_________________________
Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
[url=www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind]www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind[/url]

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#1908605 - 06/05/12 04:53 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Olek Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 6369
Loc: France
We are lucky in Europe a we have learned the hard way to be attentove but not trust blindly what comes from overseas. There is a tendency to propose some simplification of perfectly valid concepts. Very often the essence of things is lost in that analysis.

Mostly I wonder how concert work can be learned when the concert halls are not human size.

You better help Plns who is anxiously waiting for your comments on the tuning samples he provided
May be you have no words to explain himand analyse what he did, that would proove the absence of conceptualisation I suspect on your side when it comes to unison and consonance work.
Or you are not generous enough to help a beginner tuner who is doing perfectly well, to me, anyway working in the good direction.
With coherent instructions tuners can learn in more or less 2 years to provide a very pleasing and musical tone.
With the common instructions one have to be lucky attain some better trainings or meet the good person.



Edited by Kamin (06/05/12 06:45 AM)
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