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#1908811 - 06/05/12 01:04 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
RonTuner Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1665
Loc: Chicagoland
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Originally Posted By: RonTuner
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Originally Posted By: RonTuner
Picture a ruler with all of those equally spaced markings...

Now picture that same ruler printed on a stretchy piece of rubber. Pull on the ends (change the octave width) and all of the markings are still equally spaced...

Ron Koval


That is the point and you have just illustrated what I am saying. You are attempting to change what an octave is and inserting semitones between an interval which is not the original octave. It still forms a geometric relationship, but it is no longer based on the starting defined Hz. So, all you have done is to raise the pitch of the stretchy rubber. If the fundimental pitch of your hypothetical octave was C, you might now have an octave with the fundimental of C#. (or D, or D# ...) Even though, visually, it appears to be stretching an octave, it is merely raising the pitch and the semitones in between.


Wait, wait... Assume the ruler has a mark in the middle (A4). That doesn't move as you pull on both ends. Everything else moves, but there is still the same number of divisions between the octaves. A4 is set in stone at 440 - the other A's are stretched to make the best match with that A4...

Ron Koval


Ron, I see what you are referring to. You are looking at the stretchy ruler and I am listening to it. The A marked on the ruler will no longer be A440. It will be higher in pitch. So far so good. If you actually stretch the ruler to twice its original length, it will "sound" one octave higher. It will still have the same divisions, chromatic semitones, but visually the spacing is increasing while the heard intervals are shrinking.

It is an interesting enigma.

Has anyone ever studied the inharmonicity of a rubber ruler?

help grin


Hmmm... I'm still not getting the point across. The ruler stretches a minute amount in representing the piano stretch, so to make the A5 and A3 match the A4, (which IS 440; go ahead and nail it to the table to make sure the mark doesn't move) we would see the stretch, (via an electronic measure) but the ruler "sounds" normal - that is, listening to the A3-A4-A5, all of the octave matches sound "pure". The "good" tuners can make this happen from A0 to A7 on decent pianos - you can't hear any stretch, but if you measure, the ruler does show that it has been pulled away from the simple doubling of Hz.

As others have written, this is a different topic than temperament, though they are certainly intertwined in practice.

Ron Koval
_________________________
Piano/instrument technician
www.ronkoval.com
@ronkoval

my piano videos:
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=drwoodwind


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#1908812 - 06/05/12 01:04 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Roger Ransom]
Emmery Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2436
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Originally Posted By: Roger Ransom
I think this whole discussion started with a question about whether a tuner should discuss or tell a customer if they are tuning the piano in some temperament other than ET.

While it's certainly interesting and some is over my head, I don't don't know any of the customers that I work with that even know what a 'temperament' is.

If I started asking them what temperament they would like or would it be OK if I tuned it in EBVT3, their eyes would glaze over and they would probably say something like "Just tune the damn thing, it sounds awful" smile.

If any were acutely aware of temperaments, they may very well bring it up themselves or I might introduce the topic.

In spite of all the arguing, it is certainly interesting stuff and emphasizes that the natural world is not as neat and orderly as we would like.

Incidentally, the High School I worked in, taught that Wikipedia, although remarkable, is not a reliable reference source and should not be used for research.

I'll go back in the background now



Roger, I agree with you completely about customer naivity in regards to temperament. My experiences are much the same.

If a temperament gets substituted for ET and a customer does not notice, one, or possibly two things occured. The temperament is not much different from ET for it to be noticed musically, or the person is not entirely aware of what to listen for.

Try and spring an UT on a recording studio or a particularily fussy concert pianist who does not want it, and see where that gets you. Have we relegated other customers into a lower status that does not deserve the same consideration, openess, or honesty in what we are giving them?
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#1908824 - 06/05/12 01:37 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Emmery]
Roger Ransom Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/05
Posts: 1261
Loc: SouthWest Michigan
Originally Posted By: Emmery

"embracing of life"...give me a break. Are there any more completely abstract takes on it you would like to add such as "religeous or philosophical experience", "transcendental journeys" ect...

If you notice a small peice of fly poop in the center of a totally white painting, I get the impression you would find a way to comment on its importance of representing the miniscule human condition in relation to the vast expanse of the universe. Pardon me for mentioning that you would have to filter out the reality of it simply being fly poop, to do so.

+1
_________________________
Laugh More
Yamaha G7 - Roland FP7

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#1908828 - 06/05/12 01:42 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Loren D]
ClsscLib Offline

Platinum Supporter until Jan 02 2013


Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 1777
Loc: Northern VA, U.S.
Originally Posted By: Loren D
In a college, someone doesn't just walk in off the street and starting teaching a class. Colleges use text books where information is sourced and referenced. Does scientific understanding and knowledge change? Yes, of course. But it's a result of greater understanding, not because someone who doesn't know what he's talking about decided to present information as fact.


What an idealistic view of what is taught at a college!

You'd be amazed what gets into college and university syllabi that has little or nothing to do with "greater understanding" -- quite the opposite in many cases. As for people who don't know what they're talking about presenting misinformation or personal opinion as fact, you get a fair bit of that too.

At least in Wikipedia, someone with contrary facts has a chance to insert them in the discussion. Try that in some college classes, and you can kiss your academic career goodbye.
_________________________


"People may say I can't sing, but no one can ever say I didn't sing."

-- Florence Foster Jenkins

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#1908833 - 06/05/12 01:51 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Emmery]
Roger Ransom Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/05
Posts: 1261
Loc: SouthWest Michigan
Originally Posted By: Emmery


Try and spring an UT on a recording studio or a particularily fussy concert pianist who does not want it, and see where that gets you. Have we relegated other customers into a lower status that does not deserve the same consideration, openess, or honesty in what we are giving them?


I agree with this completely. I tune pianos mostly for people who have old worn out pianos that can barely be tuned anyway. Temperament means nothing to them and I don't mean to insult them at all.

If/and/or when I run into more knowledgeable customers I would certainly discuss the options with them and would not make assumptions. That's the way I was taught to work by my Dad and it has served me well all my working years in other jobs as well. Open communication helps eliminate misunderstandings and unwanted surprises.
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#1908843 - 06/05/12 02:04 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: RonTuner]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1070
Loc: Sicily - Italy
Originally Posted By: RonTuner
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso
Originally Posted By: RonTuner
Alfredo, perhaps you are unfamiliar with "the blues"???

Ron Koval


Ron, can you expand on that? What is it that you mean to say?


The Blues is an American musical style that comes from pain and suffering... It is common to use notes not available on the keyboard - forcing pianist to play two chromatic notes next to each other to approximate the effect.. I was responding to your statement about tonal temperaments being "out of tune", which (outside of unisons and octaves) is a cultural and learned phenomenon. While many tuners would like to think that equal temperament is universal, it is actually a very small subset in the music world; it only really exists on keyboard instruments, as well as some fretted instruments - and then only if the tuning follows very strict parameters that many ET technicians have admitted not really following...

The idea of the Blues brings up a concept that often gets lost in these discussions. The idea of "sounding better" or "sounding worse" shouldn't really be the focus. I like to think of it as offering a range, or expanding the palette available to the composer.

One of the early demonstrations I went to (before I was interested in anything other than ET) included an old piece of music that was written after the death of the composer's wife. Played in ET, it was sad - kindof "I hit my toe on the dresser and it hurts pretty bad". When it was played in the other temperament (don't know what) The pain and anguish made possible by the tuning made me squirm in my seat. I wish I knew the composer and piece now!

Ron Koval


..."The Blues is an American musical style that comes from pain and suffering... It is common to use notes not available on the keyboard - forcing pianist to play two chromatic notes next to each other to approximate the effect."...

Ron, were we talking about "notes not available on the keyboard"? Perhaps if I tell you that I've been playing guitar since I was eleven… Blue notes (that are not available on the keyboard) have nothing to do with "good intonation" and the sense of harmoniousness that you may get from "in tune" chords. If this was not true, blues players would not bother to "tune" their voice or their guitar or what so ever. As you say, Blues is a music stile, and it is not the only music stile (in the world) that uses notes not available on a semi-tonal keyboard.

..."I was responding to your statement about tonal temperaments being "out of tune", which (outside of unisons and octaves) is a cultural and learned phenomenon."...

I have to correct your citation, I would never say that "tonal temperaments" are "out of tune", as I consider your idea that "WT's are tonal" and "ET is atonal" already wrong. Historically, the word "Tonal" was born precisely within the compositional context (you could check) and it is abusive suggesting the above distinction. The history of temperaments (and simple maths) would tell you that WT's were still trying to manage the "wolf"… but really, I've acknowledged that history, simple maths, logics, common sense and - above all - "good intonation" means little for many of you so… what should we talk about? Blues? Do you play Blues? Serious… tell me what is your favorite blues, I shall record it with my (in tune) guitar and offer it to you.

..."While many tuners would like to think that equal temperament is universal, it is actually a very small subset in the music world;"...

Live that aside, for what I can see here the problem is much wider, it looks like a mix of ignorance, manipulative intents, business interests and the kind of simplicity that often results from superficiality.

..."it only really exists on keyboard instruments, as well as some fretted instruments - and then only if the tuning follows very strict parameters that many ET technicians have admitted not really following..."...

But then, how can you say whether ET exist or not? And which are those "very strict parameters"? And who do you share them with? VT's users? So many questions, arising every second sentence… and no way to hold one single concept firm and steady.

..."The idea of the Blues brings up a concept that often gets lost in these discussions. The idea of "sounding better" or "sounding worse" shouldn't really be the focus."...

In my case, I focused on "sounding perfect", in tune and sound intonation, which in any case are not meant to be exclusive.

..."I like to think of it as offering a range, or expanding the palette available to the composer."...

So, if a customer complains you say… ehi, I'm expanding your palette!

..."One of the early demonstrations I went to (before I was interested in anything other than ET) included an old piece of music that was written after the death of the composer's wife. Played in ET, it was sad - kindof "I hit my toe on the dresser and it hurts pretty bad". When it was played in the other temperament (don't know what) The pain and anguish made possible by the tuning made me squirm in my seat. I wish I knew the composer and piece now!"...

The only one time a bass player made me notice that F1 was out of tune I could only agree and wanted to vanish in shame.

Regards, a.c.
.
_________________________
alfredo

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#1908859 - 06/05/12 02:37 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Ed Foote]
Emmery Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2436
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Originally Posted By: Ed Foote
Originally Posted By: Emmery
Unfortunately Marty, anything other than ET will proportionally create inequalities of increased consonance and dissonance if a musician freely works in all keys. Folks who favour UT's have either developed an audio filtering of some sort to eliminate that dissonance, or have restricted themselves from playing in certain keys. Folks who adhere to ET, can pick up any piece of music and play it without resorting to transposing or mentally blocking out highly disproportionate dissonance. The concept of fully appreciating any art intrinsically involves increasing ones perception, not filterring it or pretending to not notice things that are present.




Greetings,
You are dead wrong. However in the spirit of universal typecasting....

Folks who favor UT's are folks that can appreciate the increased complexity of music that uses more than one universal size third, and who have increased their musical horizons to at least consider the more plausible intonation of the past. They find beauty in the contrast of dissonance and consonance.

Folks that consider only ET to be in tune are those that have restricted themselves to one tonality and are not capable of finding musical value in anything more highly tempered than ET. Their optimum musical value for a third is 14 cents, which is wildly out of tune. Anything more tempered than that is objectionable, leading to the logic that the ET purist prefers every third to be tuned at the absolute limit of dissonance, just so they are all the same!

In the total effect, ET creates far more dissonance than Wt's in the music that has been written, unless the pianist plays the same amount in all 12 keys,
( which I have never seen happen).

Regards,


Ed, I understand what you are saying, but you must realise that in the end, ET vs UT is simply a comparison of thresholds and values for two systems that spread dissonance in different ways.

Any arguement purporting that we have a common sense of "taste" amongst each other cannot be used in favour of UT...the grand majority of people have embraced ET with its 14 cents....not the other way around. This is the reality.

You have a very narrow view of why ET proponents prefer it over UT and it is mired in your bias towards non-ET. The main reason I prefer ET is that if I pick up my Beatles Complete music book for example, with over 120 pieces in it, I want to be able to open to any page and play that song and have it sound decent. I want to have it sound decent without the need to alter my pianos tuning for it. I don't want to transpose everything to the key of C and have that particularly annoying "beginners" sound which is associated with the key of C, regardless of how pure its tempered. Jazz will often move in chromatic shifts, that favours equally dissonant thirds over haphazard pure ones mixed with others that are more dissonant than ET.

Versatility, has been, and always will be ET's ace in the hand.
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#1908865 - 06/05/12 02:46 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: ClsscLib]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: ClsscLib
Originally Posted By: Loren D
In a college, someone doesn't just walk in off the street and starting teaching a class. Colleges use text books where information is sourced and referenced. Does scientific understanding and knowledge change? Yes, of course. But it's a result of greater understanding, not because someone who doesn't know what he's talking about decided to present information as fact.


What an idealistic view of what is taught at a college!

You'd be amazed what gets into college and university syllabi that has little or nothing to do with "greater understanding" -- quite the opposite in many cases. As for people who don't know what they're talking about presenting misinformation or personal opinion as fact, you get a fair bit of that too.

At least in Wikipedia, someone with contrary facts has a chance to insert them in the discussion. Try that in some college classes, and you can kiss your academic career goodbye.


Can we at least agree that someone who is teaching chemistry at the college level has a degree in chemistry?

And can we also agree that someone who knows absolutely nothing about chemistry can edit a chemistry article on Wikipedia?

This has nothing to do with idealism at all. Go through and look at Wikipedia history on some articles and see how much vandalism, cleaning up, deletions, etc. you come up with. If you're comfortable relying on that, have at it, man. smile
_________________________
DiGiorgi Piano Service (1984-2013)
http://www.digiorgipiano.com

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#1908873 - 06/05/12 03:00 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: alfredo capurso]
RonTuner Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1665
Loc: Chicagoland
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso

..."Music is all about contrasts -"...

Ron, perhaps music is all about... many things, perhaps even contrasts but, has nobody explained you that contrast is perceived through different chords and melodies? Nothing to do with poor intonation and tunings? Would you ever sing out of tune, so that you can finally obtain contrast?



You made me go back and look at it again. Here is your quote about poor intonations and tunings and singing "out of tune" for contrast that led to my citing the Blues and playing/singing notes not available to keyboard players...

Ron Koval
_________________________
Piano/instrument technician
www.ronkoval.com
@ronkoval

my piano videos:
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=drwoodwind


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#1908884 - 06/05/12 03:25 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Loren D]
ClsscLib Offline

Platinum Supporter until Jan 02 2013


Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 1777
Loc: Northern VA, U.S.
Originally Posted By: Loren D
Originally Posted By: ClsscLib
Originally Posted By: Loren D
In a college, someone doesn't just walk in off the street and starting teaching a class. Colleges use text books where information is sourced and referenced. Does scientific understanding and knowledge change? Yes, of course. But it's a result of greater understanding, not because someone who doesn't know what he's talking about decided to present information as fact.


What an idealistic view of what is taught at a college!

You'd be amazed what gets into college and university syllabi that has little or nothing to do with "greater understanding" -- quite the opposite in many cases. As for people who don't know what they're talking about presenting misinformation or personal opinion as fact, you get a fair bit of that too.

At least in Wikipedia, someone with contrary facts has a chance to insert them in the discussion. Try that in some college classes, and you can kiss your academic career goodbye.


Can we at least agree that someone who is teaching chemistry at the college level has a degree in chemistry?

And can we also agree that someone who knows absolutely nothing about chemistry can edit a chemistry article on Wikipedia?

This has nothing to do with idealism at all. Go through and look at Wikipedia history on some articles and see how much vandalism, cleaning up, deletions, etc. you come up with. If you're comfortable relying on that, have at it, man. smile


Thanks, but I won't completely rely on anyone else's work in researching a topic important to me.

Subject to that qualification, I find Wikipedia to be a very useful resource.

.
_________________________


"People may say I can't sing, but no one can ever say I didn't sing."

-- Florence Foster Jenkins

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#1908888 - 06/05/12 03:36 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: ClsscLib]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: ClsscLib
Originally Posted By: Loren D
Originally Posted By: ClsscLib
Originally Posted By: Loren D
In a college, someone doesn't just walk in off the street and starting teaching a class. Colleges use text books where information is sourced and referenced. Does scientific understanding and knowledge change? Yes, of course. But it's a result of greater understanding, not because someone who doesn't know what he's talking about decided to present information as fact.


What an idealistic view of what is taught at a college!

You'd be amazed what gets into college and university syllabi that has little or nothing to do with "greater understanding" -- quite the opposite in many cases. As for people who don't know what they're talking about presenting misinformation or personal opinion as fact, you get a fair bit of that too.

At least in Wikipedia, someone with contrary facts has a chance to insert them in the discussion. Try that in some college classes, and you can kiss your academic career goodbye.


Can we at least agree that someone who is teaching chemistry at the college level has a degree in chemistry?

And can we also agree that someone who knows absolutely nothing about chemistry can edit a chemistry article on Wikipedia?

This has nothing to do with idealism at all. Go through and look at Wikipedia history on some articles and see how much vandalism, cleaning up, deletions, etc. you come up with. If you're comfortable relying on that, have at it, man. smile


Thanks, but I won't completely rely on anyone else's work in researching a topic important to me.

Subject to that qualification, I find Wikipedia to be a very useful resource.

.


Sooner or later you need to seek information, even if you're doing your own research. I would hope the information you end up relying on is at least sourced, referenced, and reliable.
_________________________
DiGiorgi Piano Service (1984-2013)
http://www.digiorgipiano.com

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#1908895 - 06/05/12 03:45 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Emmery]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
Originally Posted By: Emmery
I don't want to transpose everything to the key of C and have that particularly annoying "beginners" sound which is associated with the key of C


If you are transposing to C and it has a "beginners" sound, it means that you are playing on a piano tuned with UT. Otherwise there would be no difference in "sound."

So, if you are playing something by Rachmaninov in D-minor and you transpose it to C-minor, it will have a beginner's sound? So much for the deep sonorities of the 3rd Concerto.

No matter what temperament the piano has, the orchestra would not be playing in ET.

(You never did answer my previous question, BTW)
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#1908913 - 06/05/12 04:18 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Loren D]
ClsscLib Offline

Platinum Supporter until Jan 02 2013


Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 1777
Loc: Northern VA, U.S.
Originally Posted By: Loren D
Originally Posted By: ClsscLib
Originally Posted By: Loren D
Originally Posted By: ClsscLib
Originally Posted By: Loren D
In a college, someone doesn't just walk in off the street and starting teaching a class. Colleges use text books where information is sourced and referenced. Does scientific understanding and knowledge change? Yes, of course. But it's a result of greater understanding, not because someone who doesn't know what he's talking about decided to present information as fact.


What an idealistic view of what is taught at a college!

You'd be amazed what gets into college and university syllabi that has little or nothing to do with "greater understanding" -- quite the opposite in many cases. As for people who don't know what they're talking about presenting misinformation or personal opinion as fact, you get a fair bit of that too.

At least in Wikipedia, someone with contrary facts has a chance to insert them in the discussion. Try that in some college classes, and you can kiss your academic career goodbye.


Can we at least agree that someone who is teaching chemistry at the college level has a degree in chemistry?

And can we also agree that someone who knows absolutely nothing about chemistry can edit a chemistry article on Wikipedia?

This has nothing to do with idealism at all. Go through and look at Wikipedia history on some articles and see how much vandalism, cleaning up, deletions, etc. you come up with. If you're comfortable relying on that, have at it, man. smile


Thanks, but I won't completely rely on anyone else's work in researching a topic important to me.

Subject to that qualification, I find Wikipedia to be a very useful resource.

.


Sooner or later you need to seek information, even if you're doing your own research. I would hope the information you end up relying on is at least sourced, referenced, and reliable.


I need information all the time. It's my business. I'm pretty good at it, but thanks for your advice.
_________________________


"People may say I can't sing, but no one can ever say I didn't sing."

-- Florence Foster Jenkins

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#1908918 - 06/05/12 04:28 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Emmery Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2436
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Originally Posted By: Emmery
I don't want to transpose everything to the key of C and have that particularly annoying "beginners" sound which is associated with the key of C


If you are transposing to C and it has a "beginners" sound, it means that you are playing on a piano tuned with UT. Otherwise there would be no difference in "sound."

So, if you are playing something by Rachmaninov in D-minor and you transpose it to C-minor, it will have a beginner's sound? So much for the deep sonorities of the 3rd Concerto.

No matter what temperament the piano has, the orchestra would not be playing in ET.

(You never did answer my previous question, BTW)


Sorry Marty, my aversion to C has nothing to do with temperament. I have a keen sense of what is unfortunately often called "perfect pitch". The key of C and its associated scaling has a specific color to me as opposed to varying shades of frequency. When I hear C, I know its C. C minor does not bother me so much. I am not inspired to seek a temperament that favours this key to others. It limits me right off the bat.

I'm not sure what question you referred to. If it was about listening to orchestras ect...yes I understand your point. However we are in a piano forum talking about pianos which are universally tuned in ET, or occasionally tuned to something else.


Edited by Emmery (06/05/12 04:37 PM)
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#1908931 - 06/05/12 05:03 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Emmery]
RonTuner Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1665
Loc: Chicagoland
Originally Posted By: Emmery
However we are in a piano forum talking about pianos which are universally tuned in ET, or occasionally tuned to something else.


I'd revise that to say that we are talking about pianos that are rarely played ET, though are sometimes purposefully and carefully tuned to ET, while more musicians and owners are finding that a "better" option is having them tuned to something other than ET...

Ron Koval
_________________________
Piano/instrument technician
www.ronkoval.com
@ronkoval

my piano videos:
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=drwoodwind


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#1908935 - 06/05/12 05:05 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Cinnamonbear]
Emmery Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2436
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Originally Posted By: Cinnamonbear
Originally Posted By: Emmery
[...] If you notice a small peice of fly poop in the center of a totally white painting, I get the impression you would find a way to comment on its importance of representing the miniscule human condition in relation to the vast expanse of the universe. Pardon me for mentioning that you would have to filter out the reality of it simply being fly poop, to do so.


I might also say, sardonically, "What a piece of work."

"What a piece of work," said sardonically, applies to many things.

We obviously see things differently, Emmery. Nice job stirring up the pot, though.


Well stirring the pot in a civil way is sometimes what is needed to get people thinking or talking. Otherwise a site like this, primarily for piano technicians, will begin to take on the appearance of a bunch of Ferrari mechanics sitting around discussing oil changes.
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#1908952 - 06/05/12 05:39 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Emmery]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
Originally Posted By: Emmery
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Originally Posted By: Emmery
I don't want to transpose everything to the key of C and have that particularly annoying "beginners" sound which is associated with the key of C


If you are transposing to C and it has a "beginners" sound, it means that you are playing on a piano tuned with UT. Otherwise there would be no difference in "sound."

So, if you are playing something by Rachmaninov in D-minor and you transpose it to C-minor, it will have a beginner's sound? So much for the deep sonorities of the 3rd Concerto.

No matter what temperament the piano has, the orchestra would not be playing in ET.

(You never did answer my previous question, BTW)


Sorry Marty, my aversion to C has nothing to do with temperament. I have a keen sense of what is unfortunately often called "perfect pitch". The key of C and its associated scaling has a specific color to me as opposed to varying shades of frequency. When I hear C, I know its C. C minor does not bother me so much. I am not inspired to seek a temperament that favours this key to others. It limits me right off the bat.

I'm not sure what question you referred to. If it was about listening to orchestras ect...yes I understand your point. However we are in a piano forum talking about pianos which are universally tuned in ET, or occasionally tuned to something else.


Ah yes,

Using the temperament of an orchestra or chorus to make a comment about ET in a tuner/tech forum is not appropriate.

In the future, I shall only discuss fly poop on Ferraris.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#1909003 - 06/05/12 07:28 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
Marty, with this group, you might as well just give it up. They will never admit fault, never address anything that is a valid point, instead, they just pass right on by it and always want the last complaint and just have to be right. Talk about not being open minded...

I like Coke. That means, they like Pepsi. So, now I like Mountain Dew too. ha
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#1909018 - 06/05/12 07:58 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Johnkie Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/04/11
Posts: 725
Loc: England
Daddy why am I going around and around in circles ? "Be quiet or I'll nail the other foot to the floor" crazy
_________________________
Concert Tuner & Technician for the past 49 years in the United Kingdom
and Member of the Pianoforte Tuners' Association (London)
www.jphillipspianoservices.freeindex.co.uk : E-mail jophillips06@aol.com

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#1909027 - 06/05/12 08:17 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
You guys behave yourselves now because......................................



_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#1909072 - 06/05/12 09:51 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3271
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Believe me Marty, I have read and appreciate your comments but I refuse to add fuel to the fire.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1909149 - 06/06/12 12:59 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2381
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
Hey if anyone needs pot stirring or coal raking, let me know. I'm available...
_________________________
Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
[url=www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind]www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind[/url]

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#1909155 - 06/06/12 01:21 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7875
Loc: France
There is a very reputed reording stuoin Paris, where the harpsichprd is tuned with acoustivally pure 5ths.
melodicoctaves are perfect. the beating in octaves anddoubles, shtrangely,did not bother me. Probably because the higher harmony amd sensation of justness was overpassing the non conform aspect.
The day I noticed that makes me more open to aoccept that our definition of intonation is certainly restrictive.
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#1909182 - 06/06/12 04:20 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Mark R. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 2040
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
ClsscLib, thanks for trying to bring a short moment of sanity into the Wikibashing. (And yes, I know first-hand the consequences of trying to correct misinformation in a college class. One of the reasons I left academia.)

Methinks I should summarily have deleted the word "Wikipedia" from my first post - that would probably have saved us half the noise on this thread. In fact, in terms of actual content, e.g. ET being a geometric progression, the rate of which corresponds to the chosen stretch, I see very little disagreement between my posts, those of Loren and those of Ron. But I used the wicked W-word... so what I wrote must be wrong!

Outta here...
_________________________
Autodidact interested in piano technology.

1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

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#1909221 - 06/06/12 07:02 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1070
Loc: Sicily - Italy

Some of you was mentioning Wikipedia, related sources, reliability etc...

This early morning, searching the web, I opened a page titled Historical Temperaments. There, under the FAQ's appearances, I happened to find a sort of WT's manifesto signed by Ed Foote RPT.

Along with the "expert" sounding verbiage narrating the whole scenery, please countercheck and see if you manage to find any scientific source.

http://www.piano-tuners.org/piano-forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1320

Marty and all Gentlemen, perhaps you know the saying "Cui Prodest"?

That page (point 11) may give you an answer:

"Tuners are now able to provide them (HT's). The tuning community has, in the last decade, been able to combine the research of Owen Jorgensen with the modern programmable tuning machine. This combination makes the recreation of a wide range of historical temperaments easily available to the working technician. As a result, pianists are being
given an opportunity to hear the piano music in more than one tuning. Once a pianist plays music on temperaments that were in use when the piece was written, they often find a greater depth and expression in the sound."

We could well order the potential recipients:

Tuners: like ice-cream, ...there are of all kinds;

The tuning community: ...we get many ideas in PW;

Modern programmable tuning machine: like for tuners and ice-cream, ...what you get is not always what you expect;

Pianists: like for tuners, ice-cream and tuning machines, ...can be challenging;

Piano music: like for tuners, ice-cream, tuning machines and pianists, ...might require a dedicated approach;

Greater depth and expression in the sound: like for tuners, ice-cream, tuning machines, pianists and piano music, ...if it is for free, it might all be welcome.

As a tuning community, do we need amateur/non referenced advertising? Could we not organize an "Ice-cream for free" party? cool

Regards, a.c.
.
_________________________
alfredo

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#1909222 - 06/06/12 07:08 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Mark R.]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: Mark R.
ClsscLib, thanks for trying to bring a short moment of sanity into the Wikibashing. (And yes, I know first-hand the consequences of trying to correct misinformation in a college class. One of the reasons I left academia.)

Methinks I should summarily have deleted the word "Wikipedia" from my first post - that would probably have saved us half the noise on this thread. In fact, in terms of actual content, e.g. ET being a geometric progression, the rate of which corresponds to the chosen stretch, I see very little disagreement between my posts, those of Loren and those of Ron. But I used the wicked W-word... so what I wrote must be wrong!

Outta here...


The reason I called you on it is because you told the other poster that he was misinformed, and suggest he check Wikipedia to learn more about it. I was just pointing out that he could do that and still be misinformed, because it's not a reliable source for information. Sorry if that bothers you! I don't accept anything using W as a source because anyone can edit it.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm off to add my 2 cents about nuclear physics. laugh

*edited for further clarification*


Edited by Loren D (06/06/12 07:39 AM)
_________________________
DiGiorgi Piano Service (1984-2013)
http://www.digiorgipiano.com

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#1909391 - 06/06/12 12:43 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Jerry Groot RPT]
Emmery Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2436
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Originally Posted By: Jerry Groot RPT
Marty, with this group, you might as well just give it up. They will never admit fault, never address anything that is a valid point, instead, they just pass right on by it and always want the last complaint and just have to be right. Talk about not being open minded...

I like Coke. That means, they like Pepsi. So, now I like Mountain Dew too. ha


Jerry, what "group"? Over 15 contributers to the thread including yourself.

"Open mindedness" is not my concern nor the concern of 99.9% of the techs out there who tune ET...its an issue for the .1% who are trying to sway the vast majority away from accepted norms. Your upset that we are not making an arguement in your favour?

Jerry, are you open minded about say, child porn being acceptable? Would you accept somebodies arguement that your close minded about it, if they can't sway you in favour of their opposing views on the matter?

Well, I've witnessed the inadequacies EBVT and UT's addressing the issue of moving through all keys without issues.

I've witnessed the inadequacies of trying to tune temperaments with ETD offsets alone.

I've witnessed the inadequacies of the present incomplete aural sequence for setting EBVT.

I've witnessed an irate customer who had EBVT sprung on them without prior consultation.

But in regards to open mindedness, I and several other techs who choose to discuss ET vs non-ET, are more open minded about it (by discussing it) than the 10's of thousands of techs who choose to simply ignore it, and just go on tuning ET.

ET is as much an accepted norm amongst customers as a person expecting their coffee to be hot when ordering from the coffee shop. So we have moved to a period where UT's are being sprinkled into the mix just like the recent trend for ice coffee. I have no issues with the new kid on the block (EBVT) being promoted or marketed to customers, as long as the customers are informed or given a choice before hand.
To do any different is both dishonest, and a gamble.

Even products that are altered or improved have some kind of information on their labels indicating "new" or "improved" to let the brand loyal customers know they are plopping down money for something that is different from what they have come to expect in the past.

Every person I have asked, including recent customers of mine, have all commented that if they are paying for a service, they expect to know ahead of time, if that service is different from what they would expect or had in the past, of if that service involves a "gamble".
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#1909471 - 06/06/12 02:43 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Emmery]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
Originally Posted By: Emmery
Originally Posted By: Jerry Groot RPT
Marty, with this group, you might as well just give it up.


"Open mindedness" is not my concern

are you open minded about say, child porn being acceptable?


Your Emmeryness,

This might be the first thing that you and I have agreed upon. It is quite obvious that you are not concerned with openmindedness.

Lets see here, you are now equating UT to child porn? Or are you saying that closed mindedness cannot be pornographic? Or do you consider any temperament other than your form of ET to be abusive?

I authored this thread to be a Non-Rant. I do not thank you for bringing your pet rant here. Being open minded, I will tolerate it, however. Others can make their own assessment.


Jerry - There have been other participants who have contributed to the discussion. Others have merely remained closed minded and taken an 'I'm right, you're wrong' attitude.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#1909473 - 06/06/12 02:47 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Emmery]
Ed Foote Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 1183
Loc: Tennessee
[quote=Emmery
>> "Open mindedness" is not my concern nor the concern of 99.9% of the techs out there who tune ET...its an issue for the .1% who are trying to sway the vast majority away from accepted norms. Your upset that we are not making an arguement in your favour? <<

.1% ? Where do you get that number from? Out of 1,000 techs only ONE is going to be using a variety of temperaments? That is totally out of the reality that I live in. And I am not trying to sway anyone from accepted norms, (unless those other 99.9% are trying desperately to hide behind the status quo).
>>Well, I've witnessed the inadequacies EBVT and UT's addressing the issue of moving through all keys without issues. <<

Have you witnessed the destruction of harmony in Mozart played on ET?

>> I've witnessed the inadequacies of trying to tune temperaments with ETD offsets alone.

I have seen far more inadequacies in aural tuning of anything than I have seen in comparisons of offset tunings vs aural well temperaments.

>>ET is as much an accepted norm amongst customers as a person expecting their coffee to be hot when ordering from the coffee shop.

Not around here. And that is a pretty thin analogy, since most customers know what coffee is, and few piano owners know what a temperament is. I am constantly gaining new customers because I tune a wide variety of temperaments. These pianists are not locked in to the status quo, they are making decisions with their ears and their wallets. And they are not dilettantes with a spinet in the living room, ( who, I suppose, get the full explanation of why ET is being put on their spinet, which has never had a compostion in F# played on it in its life.)

ET is a beautiful construction. Like a crescent wrench, it fits everything equally, but does nothing with the full emotional expression that music is capable of. It is good for those that listen intellectually, a disaster for others with a broader range of musical taste.
regards,


Edited by Ed Foote (06/06/12 02:48 PM)

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#1909477 - 06/06/12 02:50 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
Quote:
"Open mindedness" is not my concern nor the concern of 99.9% of the techs out there who tune ET...its an issue for the .1% who are trying to sway the vast majority away from accepted norms. Your upset that we are not making an arguement in your favour?


Obviously, open mindedness has never been a concern of yours.

Being right 100 % of the time along with trying to prove someone else wrong IS a very strong concern of yours.

You are wrong about the 99.9 %. Most people are very open minded. You're grasping at straws now.

I said, in another part of this thread that some people like Steinway. Some like Bosendorfer, some like Yamaha. It is a matter of preference. Accepting that someone else might like something different, or prefer something different is being open minded. I am that. If you only want to tune in ET. Who cares? Do it. If someone else wants to tune using 5 different methods, I say, GREAT!

Quote:
Jerry, are you open minded about say, child porn being acceptable? Would you accept somebodies arguement that your close minded about it, if they can't sway you in favour of their opposing views on the matter?


Don't be an ass Emmery. That statement is utterly ridiculous and totally unacceptable. You are showing your true colors now. For that you get the flying monkeys!!! wow

I know Marty, I was only referring to a couple in here, you know who... smile


Edited by Jerry Groot RPT (06/06/12 03:06 PM)
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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