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#1909482 - 06/06/12 02:59 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Emmery]
Ed Foote Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 1102
Loc: Tennessee
Emmery writes;

>>Any arguement purporting that we have a common sense of "taste" amongst each other cannot be used in favour of UT...the grand majority of people have embraced ET with its 14 cents....not the other way around. This is the reality. <<

There is no common taste. What is common is human's reaction to stimuli, such as consonance and dissonance. We cannot control the emotional alteration when we hear these things, and that really bothers some people. The grand majority of people have not embraced anything, they have simply never known there was a choice, and this ignorance is often promulgated by those tuners that don't want complicating factors in their livelihoods.


>>You have a very narrow view of why ET proponents prefer it over UT and it is mired in your bias towards non-ET.

I have a view of temperament. It includes a lot of them. ET is a specialized version, and has its place, but its "place" is shrinking. I sell a lot of ET, it is a good money-maker, and it is totally risk free, as long as the customer doesn't know of the alternatives.

>>The main reason I prefer ET is that if I pick up my Beatles Complete music book for example, with over 120 pieces in it, I want to be able to open to any page and play that song and have it sound decent. <<

ET is good for Beatle music.However, there are only 11.5 hours of that music in existence. What about the rest of Western music? Jazz pros around here have caught on to WT's. There are some changes they are enjoying because of it. Same goes with a number of song-writers. These people are listening to what they are playing, and for some reason, 200 year old tunings are attractive.

>>Versatility, has been, and always will be ET's ace in the hand.

And its greatest drawback. If 14 cents is the maximum acceptable amount of tempering, then I have to infer that the ET enthusiast wants everything as far out of tune as possible,(and that third IS out of tune). The sum total of dissonance would be the same in both temperaments if all 12 keys were used equally as much. However, that is not how the world of music is organized...
Regards,


Edited by Ed Foote (06/06/12 03:00 PM)

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#1909569 - 06/06/12 05:18 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1059
Loc: Sicily - Italy

Marty, this is about "ET", its expanding outside the mid-range, ETD's, language barrier and what Bill Bremmer RPT understood of that, almost three years ago. Do not worry about the lenth and PTGees, that seems to go with style:

#1220568 - 06/21/09 02:35 PM Re: CIRCULAR HARMONIC SYSTEM - CHAS [Re: BDB]

Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 2558
Loc: Madison, WI USA

Rafael, the definition of ET is a temperament in which all intervals are tempered equally. It is as simple as that. I learned that from Kent Swafford. I also learned from Kent that it doesn't matter how wide or narrow the octave is. Since he had explained it to me, I heard it from other sources as well. With further work in techniques for constructing an ET, I learned that the scaling of the piano does not matter either.

Please, let us not mention "CTE" too much. No one who has that authority is allowed to "advertise" it. Only one member of any master tuning committee is required to have that title. PTG members who become inactive with tuning exams lose that title. It is only meant to be used for the purposes of conducting an official PTG tuning exam and is not meant to represent a level of skill. It has to do more with the administrative skills than it does with tuning skills. It is well known, however that to qualify to train in that area, the person must possess a higher standard of aural tuning skills than is required to become an RPT.

Therefore, there has been some suggestion within PTG that those who do possess these skills, whether they work with exams or not, be recognized for it. It may come about eventually but presently, there is no title which PTG bestows other than RPT.

So, let's be sensitive as well to those who are not PTG members, especially to those who may, in fact, have superior aural tuning skills. Anyone can use an ETD to test aural tunings by using the exam program which comes with them, if they care to learn how to do it. Anyone can set up a "reference" tuning either by themselves or with assistance from a more highly skilled technician, PTG member or not and regardless of whether that person ever worked as an examiner or not.

I can say, however that when an aural ET is being refined to its ultimate perfection such as during the construction of a Master or reference tuning, the people doing that look for the same amount of tempering in all intervals. There can be no "fudging", no favoring of any one kind of interval over another.
This is true regardless of octave type, size or width, however you may like to think about that. PTG does not have any specifications for that, even for the exams.

If anyone used Bernhard Stopper's model for a PTG exam and did the midrange aurally as required with sufficient accuracy, it would pass the exam. Any other octave width, even a slightly narrow width would work just as well. What matters is consistency, maintaining the same concept throughout. That is not to say that favoring one kind of interval over another may produce pleasing results in some circumstances, that is what I do every day. "To be or not to be ET, that is the question".

Regarding whether 5ths and 12ths become wide or not, they do, I am convinced of that. I learned that very long ago from Steve Fairchild who demonstrated it at a PTG convention. Now, I take what Kent said about my post to heart but the figures as I posted them still suggest as much.

Anyone can do what I do routinely in constructing octaves from F5 to the top and they will see that what I say is true. Beginning on F5 and with the ETD set on F5 (Partial 1), play the F3 and A#3. If you first stop the pattern when F3 is played, then play A#3, the pattern will roll slightly sharp. If you adjust F5 on the ETD so that the pattern rolls equally sharp and flat when F3 and A#3 are played alternately, you will find an ideal spot for F5 to be tuned. The double octave will be slightly wide and the 12th, slightly narrow, each by a very small amount, nearly imperceptible to the ear.

That is the basic "mindless octaves" concept. If by ear, the double octave is made to sound beatless, the 12th will beat noticeably. If the 12th is made beatless, the double octave will have a noticeable beat that may be considered unacceptable. However, when there is an exact compromise between both the double octave and the 12th, both intervals sound apparently in tune, the beat is so slight as to not be really noticeable, especially in a musical context.

That is why I dubbed the concept as "mindless" because if either the double octave or the 12th beats, it sounds "wrong" but when there is that exact compromise between the two, it sounds "right". This proved to be true for me even when tuning an unequal temperament.

Now, if you continue this technique upwards, you will inevitable find a point where both the double octave and the 12th will both stop the pattern and to the ear, both will sound perfectly in tune. When you continue upwards, you will find the exact opposite of what you found at F5. When the 12th stops the pattern, the double octave will be wide, when the double octave stops the pattern, the 12th will be narrow, still each by a very small amount.

This means (at least by my reasoning), that the 12th has become wide and therefore the 5th as well. However, at this point, the coincident partials for the 5th may well be out of hearing range and therefore, however wide they may be won't matter because they cannot be heard. In any case, a slightly wide 5th is not unpleasant to the ear, especially that high up where the sustain is so short. The same applies to single octaves: a slight or even slightly rapid beat in a single octave does not offend the ear, particularly in a true musical context.

I have now long taken to the practice of tuning pure double octaves and 5ths from F6 to the top. Sometimes, I don't start that until C7, it all depends on how wide the single octave sounds. If it is just too crazy, I go back to the double octave and 12th compromise until the single octaves can sound reasonable. So, I may start the pure double octave and 5th idea anywhere between F6 and C7 or maybe even a little higher but eventually, I get to 6:1 octaves in the high treble. I tune the low bass basically the same way. I let the piano tell me what it can take.

To me, this is a far better way to tune the extremes of the piano than to depend on a calculated stretch curve. (The totally advanced features of the Verituner notwithstanding). That curve is based upon assumptions instead of what the piano may really offer. Even if I use a calculated tuning for the middle, I change my partial selection and tune by direct interval at either extreme end. It doesn't take that much more time to do it that way but the results are certainly worth the time and effort.

That is one of the several reasons why I chose to use the SAT over the other choices of ETD which are available. For me, direct interval tuning is my preferred concept because I tell the ETD what I want, it does not tell me. I am in complete control of the results to the very highest and lowest notes and that is the way I want it. I do believe that for those who are used to using the other devices and software, a direct interval method of tuning the high treble and low bass are just as accessible as with an SAT.

I have met and had discussions with Bernhard Stopper and have also heard his tuning. It has a remarkably clear character to it. While I still do not fully understand it, I did gather from what he has said that the 12ths also become wide at some point in his tunings as well.

Others have long ago suggested pure triple octaves including Jim Coleman, Sr. and Virgil Smith. If one considers that 12ths and double octaves converge, then reverse at some point, then so would double octaves and 12th and triple octaves. I would suggest, as my own practice has told me that by the time one reaches the top end of the 7th octave, that is the point where double octaves and 12ths and triple octaves are both pure or at least so close to each other that the difference is insignificant.

I give Alfredo the benefit of the doubt that his concept lies somewhere within a structure that may be a composite of what I describe above. There is, after all, an obvious language barrier. Any manipulation of octave width and/or temperament will have some kind of effect. It cannot be said that one idea is right and the other is wrong, only that any two ideas are different and produce differing effects as a result.

We should all try to understand and be able to try and implement these differences depending on the goal of the tuning at hand. Passing the PTG tuning exam is one goal but creating a more pleasing effect for a different kind of circumstance is another.

- . - . - . -

This is about "Open mindedness" and the way Jerry Groot RPT understood tunings, less than three years ago:

#1220599 - 06/21/09 03:33 PM Re: CIRCULAR HARMONIC SYSTEM - CHAS [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]

Jerry Groot RPT Online content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 5959
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
Nicely put Bill.

Gadzar,

I do not recall ever saying that I did not understand the ET. ET is what I've used my entire life until I purchased RCT. Even now, the best tunings that I have saved on RCT are all my own tunings done using ET. I can tune a piano very well with that method thank you very much. smile

I am just NOW learning Bill's method or, trying too. That to me, is a bit more confusing, learning a completely new and different method after 40 years of tuning one way... Perhaps that is to what you are referring.

What does not matter to me at all, is the mathematical theoretical stuff (that I do not bother to read by the way) that is spewed back and forth in here. All that is to me, is one person trying to impress another and it does not impress me one bit. It doesn't mean that one can hear it... All that shows is one can talk it... wink Proving it is an entirely different matter.

- . - . - . -

Regards, a.c.
.
_________________________
alfredo

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#1909581 - 06/06/12 05:38 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
I'll take that as a compliment Alfredo, thank you!

I'm just trying, to say, that there is more than one way to arrive at a satisfactory ending. ET. EBVT or ET go home. One way or the other, whatever blows your hair back and is satisfying to whomever is using and listening to it. smile
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#1909586 - 06/06/12 05:45 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Loren D Online   embarrased
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
I still say most people who call to have a piano tuned have no idea what a temperament even is.
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DiGiorgi Piano Service (1984-2013)
http://www.digiorgipiano.com

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#1909608 - 06/06/12 06:22 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Loren D]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1059
Loc: Sicily - Italy

Originally Posted By: Loren D
I still say most people who call to have a piano tuned have no idea what a temperament even is.


((((Shhh, Loren, people may want to know about... us.)))-

So, Marty, Loren, Emmery, Gadzar, shall we organize that party?

We only need a place, it could well be your house or any place where we can also play some music (and of course our tunings). While I'd bet Bill, Kent, Jerry and Ed would (no-problem) go for it, one thing is, I would like to make sure that Isaac and Johnkie, Jake and perhaps others have (in some way) a taste for ice-cream (alternatively, I know that Isaac doesn't mind Japanese).

And each one of us could make an ice-cream for all the others, and we could all sing Beatles and Mozart, Mexican and Canadian folk music and see which sounds best?

Regards, a.c.


Edited by alfredo capurso (06/06/12 07:02 PM)
Edit Reason: correct language + adding and re-ordering
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alfredo

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#1909631 - 06/06/12 07:03 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Johnkie Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/04/11
Posts: 688
Loc: England
Alfredo :

The idea of the party sounds great ....if only it were possible frown

Being someone that has never used an ETD I have little understanding of all the numbers being thrown backwards and forwards, and haven't a clue what all the arguments are about. I have always considered the first 12 notes of the scale to be of paramount concern, after which I concentrate on octaves that leave the 4th & 5th smooth and the 3rds & 6ths progressive. My "ice-cream" seems to have satisfied musicians from just about every walk of life and every class of musicianship for over 4 decades.It has enabled me to make a very worthwhile living and rub shoulders with some very eminent people .... but hey ... who's to say that other flavours aren't just as satisfying wink
_________________________
Concert Tuner & Technician for the past 49 years in the United Kingdom
and Member of the Pianoforte Tuners' Association (London)
www.jphillipspianoservices.freeindex.co.uk : E-mail jophillips06@aol.com

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#1909643 - 06/06/12 07:26 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Johnkie]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1059
Loc: Sicily - Italy

Originally Posted By: Johnkie
Alfredo :

The idea of the party sounds great ....if only it were possible frown

Being someone that has never used an ETD I have little understanding of all the numbers being thrown backwards and forwards, and haven't a clue what all the arguments are about. I have always considered the first 12 notes of the scale to be of paramount concern, after which I concentrate on octaves that leave the 4th & 5th smooth and the 3rds & 6ths progressive. My "ice-cream" seems to have satisfied musicians from just about every walk of life and every class of musicianship for over 4 decades.It has enabled me to make a very worthwhile living and rub shoulders with some very eminent people .... but hey ... who's to say that other flavours aren't just as satisfying wink



Really nice post, Johnkie, thank you. I would enjoy listening to you, tuning.

Watch out though because question marks add up easly... ha

Is your voice's register a bass?
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alfredo

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#1909645 - 06/06/12 07:30 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Johnkie Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/04/11
Posts: 688
Loc: England
It's a great pleasure Alfredo, I think we have much in common with our views . My voice ....... yes it is Bass ....... but sadly more like the fish than the lower voice register. I think you could say "I sing like a nighting pig" rather than "nightingale" smile
_________________________
Concert Tuner & Technician for the past 49 years in the United Kingdom
and Member of the Pianoforte Tuners' Association (London)
www.jphillipspianoservices.freeindex.co.uk : E-mail jophillips06@aol.com

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#1909656 - 06/06/12 07:54 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Johnkie]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1059
Loc: Sicily - Italy

Originally Posted By: Johnkie
It's a great pleasure Alfredo, I think we have much in common with our views . My voice ....... yes it is Bass ....... but sadly more like the fish than the lower voice register. I think you could say "I sing like a nighting pig" rather than "nightingale" smile


Ok, but that is before or after the party? smile

John, I think (edit: I hope) we are going to meet sometime.

Best wishes,

Alfredo


Edited by alfredo capurso (06/06/12 07:57 PM)
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alfredo

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#1909698 - 06/06/12 09:39 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
You forgot Elvis!!!!!!!!
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Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#1909774 - 06/07/12 01:42 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Ed Foote]
Cinnamonbear Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3847
Loc: Rockford, IL
Originally Posted By: Ed Foote
[...] The grand majority of people have not embraced anything, they have simply never known there was a choice, and this ignorance is often promulgated by those tuners that don't want complicating factors in their livelihoods. [...]


Oh, Ed! You have put words to my thoughts!
_________________________
I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.

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#1909781 - 06/07/12 02:09 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7274
Loc: France
When the castle is in cardboard it is still fun to play within.

I had to learn to tune meantone on organs and harpsichords and I like it in its context. I would not propose anything that tend to lower the stability of the piano, to a pianist.

The problem with a good ET is that the defects and flaws of the instrument can be noticed and are then to be corrected if possible. A lousy tuning is way more forgiving.

The only ET I know which is much forgiving to the instrument is Chas, as it overpass the lack of ringing with its own consoning behavior (while keeping some life in the 5ths and 12ths that could sound dry in other situations.

nice postings Johnkie and Alfredo! we will have to wait a few days so the weather is ok for vanilla ice creams!


Edited by Kamin (06/07/12 02:41 AM)
_________________________
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#1909785 - 06/07/12 02:20 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Emmery]
Cinnamonbear Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3847
Loc: Rockford, IL
Originally Posted By: Emmery
[...] "Open mindedness" is not my concern nor the concern of 99.9% of the techs out there who tune ET...its an issue for the .1% who are trying to sway the vast majority away from accepted norms. Your upset that we are not making an arguement in your favour?

Jerry, are you open minded about say, child porn being acceptable? Would you accept somebodies arguement that your close minded about it, if they can't sway you in favour of their opposing views on the matter?

Well, I've witnessed the inadequacies EBVT and UT's addressing the issue of moving through all keys without issues.

I've witnessed the inadequacies of trying to tune temperaments with ETD offsets alone.

I've witnessed the inadequacies of the present incomplete aural sequence for setting EBVT.

I've witnessed an irate customer who had EBVT sprung on them without prior consultation.

But in regards to open mindedness, I and several other techs who choose to discuss ET vs non-ET, are more open minded about it (by discussing it) than the 10's of thousands of techs who choose to simply ignore it, and just go on tuning ET.

ET is as much an accepted norm amongst customers as a person expecting their coffee to be hot when ordering from the coffee shop. So we have moved to a period where UT's are being sprinkled into the mix just like the recent trend for ice coffee. I have no issues with the new kid on the block (EBVT) being promoted or marketed to customers, as long as the customers are informed or given a choice before hand.
To do any different is both dishonest, and a gamble.

Even products that are altered or improved have some kind of information on their labels indicating "new" or "improved" to let the brand loyal customers know they are plopping down money for something that is different from what they have come to expect in the past.

Every person I have asked, including recent customers of mine, have all commented that if they are paying for a service, they expect to know ahead of time, if that service is different from what they would expect or had in the past, of if that service involves a "gamble".


Emmery,

You are tying too hard. Plus,

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I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.

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#1909825 - 06/07/12 05:01 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7274
Loc: France
Personally I am very open minded I have had surgery once or twice yet... (or is it open brained ?)


Edited by Kamin (06/07/12 05:02 AM)
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#1909892 - 06/07/12 09:09 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7274
Loc: France
An now, a few words from our sponsor :

http://www.ina.fr/art-et-culture/musique...demodee.fr.html
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#1909904 - 06/07/12 09:29 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Ed Foote]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3190
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: Ed Foote





I am constantly gaining new customers because I tune a wide variety of temperaments. These pianists are not locked in to the status quo, they are making decisions with their ears and their wallets. And they are not dilettantes with a spinet in the living room...


Indeed, I gained one new Steinway L customer yesterday and referred a new customer to ED a few days ago as a direct result of Emmery's very effective advertising campaign.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1909907 - 06/07/12 09:34 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Ed Foote]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3190
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: Ed Foote
[quote=Emmery
>> "Open mindedness" is not my concern nor the concern of 99.9% of the techs out there who tune ET...its an issue for the .1% who are trying to sway the vast majority away from accepted norms. Your upset that we are not making an arguement in your favour? <<

.1% ? Where do you get that number from? ...



Out of the thin air of his own mind. That is why I don't bother to refute anything he says on here. Suffice it to say that he does not know what he is talking about from the beginning to the end of each and every rant.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1909952 - 06/07/12 11:41 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21306
Loc: Oakland
I think it is far less of a rant than complaining that pianos, with unisons so badly out of tune that one could not possibly determine what sort of temperament the piano is in, were tuned to some cesspit of temperaments called "reverse well."

What Emmery is saying makes sense. If you are given a certain amount of time to tune a piano which was supposed to be tuned before delivery, as often happens to me, there is nothing worse than to find it had been tuned in some way it was not supposed to be tuned. I have had that happen to me, and it was no fun.
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Semipro Tech

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#1909958 - 06/07/12 11:49 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1059
Loc: Sicily - Italy

Bill,

In my view, you have All been able to make your point and I do not see any other valuable argument being added for further clarification.

Before being told the same by a moderator sensitive to intonation, shocked would you mind telling me what's your favorite ice cream flavor? And your individual portion, how much cream should I order, I ought to know that in advance. cool Should we fix a maximum number of customers we can take we us? And parents? You see, lots to do, please let me know.

Regards, a.c.
.
_________________________
alfredo

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#1909967 - 06/07/12 12:05 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: alfredo capurso]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1657
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso

In my view, you have All been able to make your point and I do not see any other valuable argument being added for further clarification.

Before being told the same by a moderator sensitive to intonation, shocked would you mind telling me what's your favorite ice cream flavor? And your individual portion, how much cream should I order, I ought to know that in advance. cool Should we fix a maximum number of customers we can take we us? And parents? You see, lots to do, please let me know.

?

Kees

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#1909984 - 06/07/12 12:35 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: BDB]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3190
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: BDB
If you are given a certain amount of time to tune a piano which was supposed to be tuned before delivery, as often happens to me, there is nothing worse than to find it had been tuned in some way it was not supposed to be tuned. I have had that happen to me, and it was no fun.


If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1909993 - 06/07/12 12:52 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21306
Loc: Oakland
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
Originally Posted By: BDB
If you are given a certain amount of time to tune a piano which was supposed to be tuned before delivery, as often happens to me, there is nothing worse than to find it had been tuned in some way it was not supposed to be tuned. I have had that happen to me, and it was no fun.


If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.


I do not understand what you mean by that. Do you expect me to lower my standards? That may be all right for you, but it is not for me.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#1910017 - 06/07/12 01:28 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: BDB]
Ed Foote Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 1102
Loc: Tennessee
[quote If you are given a certain amount of time to tune a piano which was supposed to be tuned before delivery, as often happens to me, there is nothing worse than to find it had been tuned in some way it was not supposed to be tuned. I have had that happen to me, and it was no fun. [/quote]

If you run into a Mean Tone, you would have a fairly unstable situation. However, 1-4 cents change scattered around an octave, (some up, some down, so the overall tension isn't skewed) has never introduced any more instability in my tuning than staying at the same temperament.

If you are tuning a piano from a Victorian era WT, (as in no notes more than 4 cents away from ET), there should be no problem switching temperaments. I've done it innumerable times, going the other way.
And it is easy to see one reason for some tuners' reluctance in introducing a customer to WT. It brings a lot of focus on the tuning. It asks the customer to listen more closely than normal. It makes every unison and octave liable to be examined by someone looking for something.
It is scrutiny, I tell ya. Keeps one on their toes, putting the bright light on the tuning. Not for the timid, for sure.
Regards,
Regards,

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#1910025 - 06/07/12 01:40 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1059
Loc: Sicily - Italy
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
Originally Posted By: Ed Foote
[quote=Emmery
>> "Open mindedness" is not my concern nor the concern of 99.9% of the techs out there who tune ET...its an issue for the .1% who are trying to sway the vast majority away from accepted norms. Your upset that we are not making an arguement in your favour? <<

.1% ? Where do you get that number from? ...



Out of the thin air of his own mind. That is why I don't bother to refute anything he says on here. Suffice it to say that he does not know what he is talking about from the beginning to the end of each and every rant.


Hi Kees,

What is it that you do not understand?
_________________________
alfredo

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#1910103 - 06/07/12 04:31 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: alfredo capurso]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1657
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
Originally Posted By: Ed Foote
[quote=Emmery
>> "Open mindedness" is not my concern nor the concern of 99.9% of the techs out there who tune ET...its an issue for the .1% who are trying to sway the vast majority away from accepted norms. Your upset that we are not making an arguement in your favour? <<

.1% ? Where do you get that number from? ...



Out of the thin air of his own mind. That is why I don't bother to refute anything he says on here. Suffice it to say that he does not know what he is talking about from the beginning to the end of each and every rant.


Hi Kees,

What is it that you do not understand?


Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso

In my view, you have All been able to make your point and I do not see any other valuable argument being added for further clarification.

Before being told the same by a moderator sensitive to intonation, shocked would you mind telling me what's your favorite ice cream flavor? And your individual portion, how much cream should I order, I ought to know that in advance. cool Should we fix a maximum number of customers we can take we us? And parents? You see, lots to do, please let me know.


Kees

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#1910113 - 06/07/12 04:55 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: BDB]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3190
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: BDB
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
Originally Posted By: BDB
If you are given a certain amount of time to tune a piano which was supposed to be tuned before delivery, as often happens to me, there is nothing worse than to find it had been tuned in some way it was not supposed to be tuned. I have had that happen to me, and it was no fun.


If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.


I do not understand what you mean by that. Do you expect me to lower my standards? That may be all right for you, but it is not for me.


From what I have seen you write, I thought you understood everything. What are your standards?
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

Top
#1910244 - 06/07/12 10:07 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Sparky McBiff Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/10
Posts: 1112
Loc: Toronto, Ontario
I've been following the various "discussions" about ET and EBVT for some time now and can see valid points of those on both sides of the temperament fence.

Theory and mathematical explanations are nice but I've simply decided to get my piano tuned to EBVT3 in my upcoming tuning and play on that for a while to see how it sounds to me personally.

I may notice a difference, I may not notice a difference, or I may only sometimes notice a difference, but I'm definitely interested in taking it out for a test run.

If I decide that I don't like it then no biggie, I'll just get my tuner to set me back to ET for the next tuning.
If it really irritates me I'll just get him to do it that much sooner.
Either way he'll get paid twice and I'll have a freshly tuned piano each time. laugh

A piano tuning doesn't cost much really and since I started out playing early analog synthesizers I'm used to experimenting with radically different sounds so a slightly different temperament will not freak me out and it will be nice to be able to experience a bit of variation with my grand for a change.

I'm looking forward to it.
_________________________
Hailun 198







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#1910264 - 06/07/12 11:15 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3190
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Oh WOW!!! Somebody in Emmery's area wants their piano tuned in the EBVT!!! This is truly unprecedented! I have never known an advertising campaign to be so effective!
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

Top
#1910317 - 06/08/12 03:46 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Sparky McBiff]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7274
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Sparky McBiff
I've been following the various "discussions" about ET and EBVT for some time now and can see valid points of those on both sides of the temperament fence.

Theory and mathematical explanations are nice but I've simply decided to get my piano tuned to EBVT3 in my upcoming tuning and play on that for a while to see how it sounds to me personally.

I may notice a difference, I may not notice a difference, or I may only sometimes notice a difference, but I'm definitely interested in taking it out for a test run.

If I decide that I don't like it then no biggie, I'll just get my tuner to set me back to ET for the next tuning.
If it really irritates me I'll just get him to do it that much sooner.
Either way he'll get paid twice and I'll have a freshly tuned piano each time. laugh

A piano tuning doesn't cost much really and since I started out playing early analog synthesizers I'm used to experimenting with radically different sounds so a slightly different temperament will not freak me out and it will be nice to be able to experience a bit of variation with my grand for a change.

I'm looking forward to it.



The reports I had is that part of it is good and part of it irritating wink

On a piano like yours ( does it have a plain wood soundbord) you may be limited in spectra richness so only a much inspired tuner may help. Did you record your piano ?

To me. The use of the even beating of 12 & 15 is what differs from most usual et stretchs, and provide a stronger consonance than octave based stretch.

It helps then to open the unisons . That 12 15 ratio is the strongest theoretical concept find in piano tuning lately, while. Many where yet using it partly.


But talking about stability, good to you if you can pay for tunings often, most of my customers prefer some maintenance and tunings less often. 6 months for the ones that play. A lot, but way less once the instrument is. Stable for many of them.
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#1911470 - 06/10/12 02:12 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Tribbs Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/13/12
Posts: 43
Loc: Madtown
I recently had a brief discussion with a RPT about tuning a "new" Shigeru to a non-ET temperament. It was told to me that "new" pianos are designed and built for ET and I should not consider any other.

Does this advice have any merit?

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