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#1911481 - 06/10/12 02:47 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Tribbs]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: Tribbs
I recently had a brief discussion with a RPT about tuning a "new" Shigeru to a non-ET temperament. It was told to me that "new" pianos are designed and built for ET and I should not consider any other.

Does this advice have any merit?


In my opinion, no.
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http://www.digiorgipiano.com

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#1911521 - 06/10/12 04:39 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
RonTuner Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1626
Loc: Chicagoland
Ha! No, that's just silly...

Ron Koval
_________________________
Piano/instrument technician
www.ronkoval.com
@ronkoval

my piano videos:
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#1911525 - 06/10/12 05:01 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7225
Loc: France
They speak of the correspondence of partials that allow for a fuller tone , probably

(not of the tensions difference or instability, even if by evidence changing the tuning style makes a stable piano in an instable one until it have been tuned the same 3 or 4 times by a competent tuner.....)

So, you opinion ...
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#1911527 - 06/10/12 05:03 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
Pianos are not designed for a single temperament.
_________________________
DiGiorgi Piano Service (1984-2013)
http://www.digiorgipiano.com

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#1911637 - 06/10/12 10:29 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Loren D]
Tribbs Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/13/12
Posts: 43
Loc: Madtown
Thanks for all the replies. It was exactly the same as what my instinct told me. But, not being a PT I wanted to be certain. It dismays me to hear otherwise from a member of a family of alleged respectable RPTs.

I have been spending most of today reading an earlier March thread and listening to the recordings there posted by Grandpianoman. I am genuinely intrigued with EBVT III and hope to invite Bill over someday to have a go.

thumb


Edited by Tribbs (06/10/12 10:30 PM)

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#1911666 - 06/11/12 12:07 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7225
Loc: France
for sure it is intriging. but dont trust the ready to go sentences neither. pianos, particularly Japanese ones ARE computed from a basic ET with attention to the correspondence between partials (ih) that is supposed to provide ease of tuning, which is the case on most of them. I am astonished to have to answer to such comments wink .
That part of the aspect is demayed, to me Ut would me more accepted on an old piano with very " impure " tone ( the pianos that gave most of the users of UT ) with the Even Beating part of that desequilibrium is fighted. the pleasing effect heard in EBVT is mostly based on the 12 15 even beating. pay a chromatic scale of major or minor chords in EVBT someone if you want to proove your point wink


Edited by Kamin (06/11/12 12:27 AM)
_________________________
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#1911667 - 06/11/12 12:11 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Loren D]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1653
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: Loren D
Pianos are not designed for a single temperament.

As Loren says.

Kees

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#1911674 - 06/11/12 12:32 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7225
Loc: France
What Loren state is not prooved. any temperament can be tuned on a piano without breaking strings but the designer aim for a consistency in logarythmic progression when choosing strings lenght and diameter.
If you dont mind having a Shigeru more instable than it is yet you can give a try. after all we only live wink
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#1911675 - 06/11/12 12:34 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7225
Loc: France
What Loren state is not underlaid by reflexion. any temperament can be tuned on a piano without breaking strings but the designer aim for a consistency in logarithmic progression when choosing strings length and diameter.

If you don't mind having a Shigeru more instable than it is yet naturally (particularly with string's plane) you can give a try. after all we only live once wink

A Shigeru is a special piano that is in need of a first class tuner, somebody that will strive for long term stability before anything.
Once stability begins to install keeping the voicing , plane level/hammer mating good begins to be easier and the technician have more time to do so. (but to my knowledge very few techs are trained to voice those type of pianos as they prefer smooth hammers with lacquer as a mean to have much power at the expense of voice, in my opinion)

Shigeru voicing (with spectra analysis):


PS Also, regulation wise , there is One and only way to regulate those actions, that is a huge difference with most grands, and if you don't know how you will leave the action a step lower...

So I would be ready to tune an UT on an older piano where the tone have not been purified as it is the case on the modern ones, when I tried a few Wells tuning on concert Steinway, the only comment I had from the musicians was that the piano was poorly tuned, they find no advantage in that.

But I like meantone (on an organ) Valotti on an harpsichord, or others, simply not my daily practice.



Edited by Kamin (06/11/12 05:18 AM)
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#1911676 - 06/11/12 12:41 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7225
Loc: France
the main effect of reussite of EBVT is the inexperimented tuner who believe he tuned THE EBVT because there is no possibility to verify that. Very rewarding, and well you dont even need to know how to tune a decent unison then.
just from what I could hear until now.
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#1911742 - 06/11/12 07:27 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
Kamin, a piano IS NOT DESIGNED FOR A PARTICULAR TEMPERAMENT. Period! Simple as that! Ten paragraphs not need, seriously!
_________________________
DiGiorgi Piano Service (1984-2013)
http://www.digiorgipiano.com

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#1911752 - 06/11/12 08:02 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Tribbs]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: Tribbs
Thanks for all the replies. It was exactly the same as what my instinct told me. But, not being a PT I wanted to be certain. It dismays me to hear otherwise from a member of a family of alleged respectable RPTs.

I have been spending most of today reading an earlier March thread and listening to the recordings there posted by Grandpianoman. I am genuinely intrigued with EBVT III and hope to invite Bill over someday to have a go.

thumb


It's a very nice temperament if you like personality between the keys!
_________________________
DiGiorgi Piano Service (1984-2013)
http://www.digiorgipiano.com

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#1911756 - 06/11/12 08:13 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Mark R. Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 1937
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
So, shouting makes a point more valid, but referring to Wikipedia (as one of many possible sources) doesn't?
_________________________
Autodidact interested in piano technology.

1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

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#1911764 - 06/11/12 08:31 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Mark R.]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: Mark R.
So, shouting makes a point more valid, but referring to Wikipedia (as one of many possible sources) doesn't?


Shouting doesn't make a point more valid, and neither does Wikipedia, to answer your question!
_________________________
DiGiorgi Piano Service (1984-2013)
http://www.digiorgipiano.com

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#1911770 - 06/11/12 08:41 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
"This article does not cite any references or sources. Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (July 2009)"

Sounds like something I'd bank on for sure!
_________________________
DiGiorgi Piano Service (1984-2013)
http://www.digiorgipiano.com

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#1911780 - 06/11/12 09:10 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Loren D]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7225
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Loren D
Kamin, a piano IS NOT DESIGNED FOR A PARTICULAR TEMPERAMENT. Period! Simple as that! Ten paragraphs not need, seriously!


Loren you are admirable with your simple sentence your simple trusts and your few words sentences (may I add your simple everything...).

I wonder if you have the slightest idea on how a piano is designed, I should not.

You dont seem to have much curiosity for those questions anyway.
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#1911794 - 06/11/12 09:38 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
You know, Kamin, someone who knows what he's talking about knows how to get a point across in as few words possible. I would suspect that someone without a clue has to ramble on and on and on (and on!) in an attempt to impress others.
_________________________
DiGiorgi Piano Service (1984-2013)
http://www.digiorgipiano.com

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#1911816 - 06/11/12 10:23 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Tribbs]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3186
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: Tribbs
I recently had a brief discussion with a RPT about tuning a "new" Shigeru to a non-ET temperament. It was told to me that "new" pianos are designed and built for ET and I should not consider any other.

Does this advice have any merit?


Whoever said that is one of those people who is eternally stuck on the concept of ET only. There are plenty of them out there. The principle reason they hold on to that position will never be admitted for what it really is: fear. Fear of the unknown. Fear of howling wolves and blood curdling dissonances. Fear of having to go back to re-tune a piano for free! Fear of having to learn something new. Fear of having to change the way they have always worked for so many years.

They will say almost anything to support their position and can claim any number of resources to back them up. You'll find plenty of that on here, including a recent angry and vitriolic topic that was self titled a "rant". The intent of that topic was to make the idea of using the Well Temperament that I designed 20 years ago (or any other non-equal temperament, for that matter) appear foolish and misguided.

Completely unfounded statistics such as "99.9% of pianos are tuned in ET" are pulled out of thin air. Perhaps one might say that was only hyperbole but then again, just about everything that is said while trying to denounce the use of non-equal temperaments turns out to be an emotionally charged attack without any foundation in fact or experience. Unfortunately for the people who engage in these denunciations, the tactics have a way of backfiring on them. Their efforts only end up creating more interest and curiosity about a subject they wish would just go away.

I have seen the same thing happen over and over for 15 years now, ever since I first got a computer and began to write on piano technology forums. My own study and use of non-equal temperaments began long before that, so I always knew what I was talking about, at least fundamentally. Of course, I have also learned much more along the way. I have learned much from other technicians who practice the non-equal temperaments and I have also learned to identify those who rant and rave against their use for whom they are are and why they do so.

The truth is that any piano, built today or since the modern piano came into existence well over 100 years ago, has its scale design based upon theoretical Equal Temperament. That is merely a basic framework from which to start and does not in any way mean that the piano must or should be tuned to those theoretical frequencies. If it is, it won't sound very good at all and every technician on here knows that.

It is also true that the manufacturer of any high end instrument such as the Shigeru Kawai, Steinway, Fazioli, Bechstein, Bösendorfer, etc., recommends and desires their instruments to be maintained only by highly experienced and qualified technicians. Having the same tuning applied time and again by the same technician using the same techniques does, in fact, lend itself to the instrument maintaining its stability.

That being said, in the kind of climate that prevails over most of North America, the pitch of any piano naturally changes over the course of every year. The actual difference between a properly executed ET and the EBVT III in which you have shown an interest is far smaller than the changes a technician must typically make when correcting a piano that has gone out of tune due to seasonal changes. This is especially true for new pianos which have a tendency to lose pitch for the first several years.

So, any of these warnings or admonitions against having your piano tuned in the EBVT III or any other mild Well Temperament, Mild Meantone or Modified Meantone, that it will somehow damage the piano or any music to be played upon it are completely without foundation. Those statements are made by people who have no experience in crafting non-equal temperaments for general use on the modern piano.

In making these statements, they are not looking out for your best interest; they are only trying to prevent the inevitable day when someone asks them to tune a piano that way. They don't want to do it, they think they would not like how it would sound to them (and don't even consider your interest and desire) and will do or say anything to keep you from exploring the many beauties that the piano has to offer solely for their own selfish reasons.

The choice of how you would like to have your piano tuned should be up to you, not your technician. Whether or not you understand all of the theory or techniques, be they in tuning, voicing, regulation, etc., is not what matters either. What matters is whether you are pleased and satisfied with the way your piano sounds and performs under the maintenance of the technician you choose.

If you are not satisfied with the way one technician services your piano and he/she is not responsive to you for any desired changes, then you certainly have the right to choose another and not be concerned about doing so. It happens all the time. In the community where I live, there are many fine technicians and we each have our own clientele and people who recommend us for one reason or another.

The choice you make should be your own decision. It would be better for a technician who only wants to tune ET to say that he/she simply does not practice or engage in the use of non-equal temperaments and leave it at that. A person in business will naturally want to offer the services which are most in demand.

For example, I do not service electronic keyboards, organs, player pianos, modern player systems nor do I do finish touch-up or repair, or many of the other services that a piano technician might offer is there were enough demand. I have enough business doing what I know how to do well. I refer other requests to other technicians.

It would be a far better idea for those technicians who do not choose to tune non-equal temperaments to do likewise rather than to try to suppress the idea with false and unfounded claims.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1911823 - 06/11/12 10:36 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
Anyone that is willing to the key word here is l e a r n something new can. Anyone that is open to learning something new can. That is the only reason that your RPT says what he says. He doesn't want to do it or can't. Ask some non RPTs what they know about it where u live. You'll get the same response. People learn what they want to learn. Just look at how stubborn a few non RPTs in here are towards it? Haha
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#1911838 - 06/11/12 11:00 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
Internet up here SUCKS! I didn't know anything about the EBVTIii either and didn't care until a few years ago when I started listening and learning more about it. I still couldn't learn it. Just one of those guys that is a slow slow learner so I had Bill B come to my house to teach it to me. Now I can use it if and when I need to do so or whenI want to do so. I think that is very important personally, to be able to do something like that if the customer asks for it. So long as it pertains to our profession. .

As Bill states too, there are many things that some people choose not to do too such as tuning pipe organs. Whie I can, because my family used to tune them, I choose not to do it because I don't want to do it. I don't like it.

Imam typing on an iPad 3 so mistakes galore.
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#1911853 - 06/11/12 11:24 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Jerry Groot RPT]
Cinnamonbear Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3847
Loc: Rockford, IL
Originally Posted By: Jerry Groot RPT
[...] Imam typing on an iPad 3 so mistakes galore.


Looks like you're learning lots of new things, Jer! Whoa, man! Slow down! You're making me tired just watching you! laugh
_________________________
I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.

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#1911867 - 06/11/12 11:42 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
Yeah! I'm supposed to be on vacation. The keyboard is dinky. Hah. I can use the voice microphone too but, for some reason, whenever I do that everyone looks at me like I'm talking to myself or something!?


Edited by Jerry Groot RPT (06/11/12 11:45 AM)
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#1911909 - 06/11/12 01:18 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7239
Loc: Rochester MN
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
Originally Posted By: Tribbs
I recently had a brief discussion with a RPT about tuning a "new" Shigeru to a non-ET temperament. It was told to me that "new" pianos are designed and built for ET and I should not consider any other.

Does this advice have any merit?


Those statements are made by people who have no experience in crafting non-equal temperaments for general use on the modern piano.



I might add that those same people have no experience in designing modern pianos either!

Has anyone ever seen their names on the fallboard of an instrument which they have designed?

Since starting this "Non-Rant" thread, it has been filled with many rants. Nothing which has been said convinces me that ET is superior to UT. I find it just the opposite. I hear EBVT to be superior.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#1911912 - 06/11/12 01:21 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Jerry Groot RPT]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7239
Loc: Rochester MN
Hey Jer,

Think Vacation and go catch me some perch!
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#1912268 - 06/12/12 09:46 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
Ok! Vacation! Vacation! Vacation! Perch! Mmmmmmm.
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#1912340 - 06/12/12 12:25 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
chuck belknap Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/14/10
Posts: 36
Loc: Oklahoma
Just returned from a trip to OKC yesterday where one of my favorite customers recently moved with her gorgeous Schimmel
Grand.

I introduced her to EBVT III several years ago when she lived in my city, and since she moved, she insists that I continue to tune for her. After tuning I told her that if she did not want to wait for me in scheduling to make the 100 mile trip that I could introduce her to two or three of the greatest tuners I know from our chapter that would take great care of her piano. She asked if they would tune her "special temperament", and I told her that they would only tune ET.

She told me that she will always gladly wait till I can schedule her.

Her piano teacher actually comes to her house for lessons, something she does only for her, and her teacher inquired if I would tune her piano like hers. A good friend tunes for her, and I will not invade on him, but the point is that EBVT makes pianos so much more clear that people playing it immediately notice, and have a great impression of the instrument.

Just sayin'

Charles Belknap

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#1912382 - 06/12/12 02:04 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: chuck belknap]
Tribbs Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/13/12
Posts: 43
Loc: Madtown
Originally Posted By: chuck belknap

[...] the point is that EBVT makes pianos so much more clear that people playing it immediately notice, and have a great impression of the instrument.
[...]


Last night I received and listened to...



While listening to the last two tracks of Mozart, Fantasia for piano in D minor,

track 12 [Prelleur, 1731]
track 13 [Eqaul]

I can easilly relate to the "cleanliness" you and your client are refering. I am beginning to dislike the "jittery" sound of ET. Now that I am cognisant of the differences, ET is unnerving to me.
_________________________
The People's Cube


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#1912403 - 06/12/12 03:07 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Tribbs]
Ed Foote Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 1100
Loc: Tennessee
Originally Posted By: Tribbs


Last night I received and listened to... (Six Degrees of Tonality)
While listening to the last two tracks of Mozart, Fantasia for piano in D minor,
track 12 [Prelleur, 1731]
track 13 [Eqaul]
I can easilly relate to the "cleanliness" you and your client are refering. I am beginning to dislike the "jittery" sound of ET. Now that I am cognisant of the differences, ET is unnerving to me.


Greetings,
Well, I did put a warning on the back that pure intervals can be habit forming! Some people thought I was just trying to be facetious, but no, a shift of perspective has occurred to many upon their introduction to the sound of a well-tempered piano.

It can leave your ET recordings sounding a little less attractive than they did before. (at least, I have been told that, also, several times..)
Anyway, I am glad you like it.

( I have been trying to get it placed for commercial download, selling it by the sonata, with the Mozart comparison given away for free. The services don't like to give anything away for free, so what does the crowd think? Would it be worth 25 cents to hear a Mozart composition in three different tunings, on the exact same piano, same mics, etc?

I am pretty naive about marketing, so would welcome anybody's previous experience. I have sold almost all of the original pressings, and so far, only lost about 2 dollars apiece on them, ( It's a good thing I didn't sell more!!!).
Regards,

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#1912431 - 06/12/12 04:43 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Ed Foote]
Tribbs Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/13/12
Posts: 43
Loc: Madtown
at minimum 96kHz/24bit? By all means!
_________________________
The People's Cube


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#1912455 - 06/12/12 05:47 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7225
Loc: France
Welcome Trtibbs , it is good to see new people on the forum
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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