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#1907178 - 06/02/12 02:33 PM Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
WOW - I thought that it gets interesting in Piano Forum!

I have followed both rant threads and sometimes I just let my mind spin in disbelief. Do you guys actually read what has been written by each other? Though I know nothing of the intricacies or lingo that is the domain of the piano tuner/tech, it is obvious that you guys are responding to what you think you have read, not what was actually written. It goes on ad nausium. Now in both threads.

Here is a recounting of my aural awakening.

In 2004 I engaged Tim Farley to do a total rebuild of the family 1920 Steinway-M. The job was to be a gift to my mother as she was elderly and I wanted her to have the very best. The piano was magnificent after the work and upon arrival. The subsiquent tunings did not have the life and color as when it first arrived and I was baffled. The piano was in excellent tune, but .............

This is about the same time as I joined PW. I learned so much here, and even gained an understanding of temperament. At that time, I assumed that ET was the same as Well Temperament. In conservatory, the concept of temperaments was discussed, but it was not specific.

After my mother passed, the piano went back to Farley's for temporary storage. In preparation for transport to Peoria, IL, I asked for a fresh tuning and a detailed regulation. I could not believe what I was hearing out of a little "M." OMG - The Beethoven Waldstein sang with an incredible voice and the action knocked my sox off.

Within a few days, I called Tim to extend my thanks and share my excitement. He was also pleased with the voice and the action. He shared that the reason that it had such a glorious voice was that he had tuned it to one of Bill's Temperaments (unspecified). Aha! He tried to get Bill but he was booked.

It was the writing of Mr. Bremmer which peeked my interest. I first ran across his web site when I was in the process of selecting a rebuilder. That site was the first time I was aware of different temperaments applied to a piano. When I contacted him, he was the one to recommend Tim Farley. I was pleased to discover that Bill was a contributor at PW and I could learn more.

After the piano settled into its new space, it was time for a tuning. I got some good recommendations and selected a tuner/tech. He started by doing some playing to acquaint himself with the piano. He looked at me and said, "The Bremmer EBVT Temperament sounds gorgeous on this piano."

I knew my piano was in good hands and good ears.

There was no reason that Tim Farley needed to contact me for permission to tune my piano to other than ET. Trust, gentlemen, is trust. Word of mouth is what it is all about.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#1907886 - 06/03/12 10:30 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
That Guy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/07/11
Posts: 413
Loc: Lincoln, NE
If I'm understanding what you're saying, you really like the EBVT temperament and at this point feel the ET tuning was bland sounding. Would you feel deceived if your piano was tuned to EBVT and you had not been told?
_________________________
Scott Kerns
"That Tuning Guy"
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com

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#1907911 - 06/03/12 11:24 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
Honestly Marty, no, I don't think many of them read it. Skip over it, read what they don't like and then rant about it. Some don't mention much because they get jumped all over about it sometimes.

Read the last paragraph Scott for your answer. smile

Personally I'm on both sides of the fence about it. I do like it but, being an ET tuner all of my life, makes it difficult for me to "like it" continuously. I do use it however but, not all of the time.

I can see where more and more people are liking it because from all of the reading going on about it, many players and techs like it.
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#1908021 - 06/04/12 07:14 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
BoseEric Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/08/06
Posts: 731
Loc: Fairfield County, CT
hmmm....how can we "verify" that you actually liked the tuning...I'm suspicious of anything I read on the internet... grin
_________________________
RPT. In the business: Feurich pianos, Neupert harpsichords, Hidrau benches, piano technician

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#1908026 - 06/04/12 07:20 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
hahahahahahahaha Eric!!!!!!!!
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#1908032 - 06/04/12 07:31 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
I am not allowed to rant on that thread ?

To be honest, I am not paying as much attention as I should on temperament precision, or, anyway not at the extreme smoothing of some intervals beats speed. So I am chasing for what some may call color when I am tuning, and I locate it in the energy sensation, the strength of the attack, the speed of the "ghosting" (which bring crispness).

When finished the piano does not seem to ask for more singing ability.

I feel that the straighter the tone is the more the pianist will appreciate to hear surprises in harmony, at some point it can mistakenly confuse the "out of tuness" tone (which provide some real better consonance level on a few 5ths and octaves due to the use of the 12:15 even beating relation), with the use of the natural singing quality of the instrument, which is something not so many tuners are using when tuning, in my experience)

Attack - aftersound (thick) - top of the spectra . 3 parameters that may vary from one tuner to the other.

When tuning for clean tone, the voicing will also be different. enlarging the tone allows for more dynamics and more control on it, then on some pianos way more power can be left at the attack moment.









Edited by Kamin (06/04/12 07:33 AM)
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It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#1908035 - 06/04/12 07:40 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
I think all of us look for what sounds best on any given piano that we tune. Whether that be a piano tuned in ET or anything else. In ET, there are many times where we have to give and take on a certain piano to make 'that piano' sound its best. It may be in an octave stretched a bit more, or less, to make a 3rd sound better or vice versa. Or, something else. Same with EBVT III. There are NO two pianos that will tune exactly alike or sound exactly alike when we are finished so there is always a certain degree of "give and take involved."
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#1908053 - 06/04/12 08:23 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: BoseEric]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
ROTFL laugh

Originally Posted By: BoseEric
hmmm....how can we "verify" that you actually liked the tuning...I'm suspicious of anything I read on the internet... grin


All you have to do is program your Verifyatuner to EBMAT (Ever Bemused Marty Appreciation Temperament) and confirm my intervalic swoonocity as I play Brahms. It will proove that I am in unison with myself and my opinions.

whome
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#1908076 - 06/04/12 09:09 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Dont ever believe what that Brahms guy say to you (and he have a sort of terrorist bear like, I would be cautious about that guy)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#1908087 - 06/04/12 09:28 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3296
Loc: Madison, WI USA
It seems to me that the more Emmery or anyone else tries to suppress interest in non-ET tunings, the more curiosity and interest they actually create. I now have a full week's worth of tunings booked as a direct result of the opening and follow up rants. Have have also had five people contact me for referrals to people in other places.

If those who don't like the very idea of tuning in a non-ET want the idea to fade into oblivion, they should stop talking about it. The very fact that they cannot resist doing so inevitably demonstrates that they have no idea what they are talking about as those who do know what they are talking about write any number of spin-off topics and the people who started it dig themselves into a hole.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1908093 - 06/04/12 09:41 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Olek]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
Actually Isaac, there is a whole Lizst of those terriorist bears lurking around pianists. Ya gotta be careful as they might Chopin yer head off!

thumb
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#1908099 - 06/04/12 09:51 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
I listened to some of the samples on your web site, Bill and that MH have a very nice and interesting tone.

Your unisons are sounding way better than 2 years ago, to me, also (or tons of reverb are added)

Still the treble is short in sustain (could be more "constructed, at the expense of being less "flourishingly acid" that may be would not please your customers.

and treble is easily adsorbed/covered by those basses it may be due to the recording. (to me , from octave 5 we need the most clear and lively tone)

Good for you if pianists like to play with that. I understaned it may be fun, but it is only up to some point, to me, there are always some moments where one dont know where he is in harmony. I does not make my teeth hurt at every time it may depend of the harmony.

After listening more I believe lots of reverb is added (kind of cheat to enlight the tone, that is how some recording studios keep old pianos with worn hammers and use the sound engineer to get the result) . the few records where there is not (on Youtube) are not sounding so good.
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#1908131 - 06/04/12 10:44 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Olek]
Cinnamonbear Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3981
Loc: Rockford, IL
Originally Posted By: Kamin
[...] After listening more I believe lots of reverb is added [...]


I hope Bill chimes in on this one. Isaac, the only selections on Bill's website where any reverb was added are the three pieces from Ravel's Miroirs, originally recorded by Grandpianoman on the M & H in his livingroom. The reverb was added to those selections to show how EBVT III sounds with some studio-type processing. The other selections were also recorded by Grandpianoman, who describes the recording process in the thread "My Piano in EBVT III." There are no added effects in those recordings. In fact, Grandpianoman's recording goal was to get the most true sound as possible straight off the piano so people could examine the tuning to the Nth degree possible over the Internet. If you dig into that thread, you can find that information.

--Andy


Edited by Cinnamonbear (06/04/12 10:51 AM)
_________________________
I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.

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#1908162 - 06/04/12 11:37 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Ah OK thank you, I was wandering, as on some pieces the reverb is heard, while on others it is more discrete. then the unisons from Bill have a more pleasing tone to me than what they where when this thread have begin.

I sometime also overlook the fact that a certain voicing allow for more wealthy unison, while under different circumstances the tone can be open but it stay at the surface, the body of the tone is fully expressed at each level of dynamics. In that case clear ringing tone is obtained sooner in the attack.

The consonance from other notes is what gives at the same time more crispness to the attack, and some sort of added spectra. I hear that strong with the CHAS ratio , a little more straight (less bodied) in the "pure 12 th" tuning)

With the "pure 5th tuning" the partials are flowing out of the piano very strong but the octave begins to be really active, so it may sound somewhat unnatural at some point.
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#1908167 - 06/04/12 11:42 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
That said the piano does not seem to repeat very well in the Schubert impromptu. May be it could have more power with a different regulation (the tone would be less open too).
I listen with pleasure, and at some point I fell like if I begin to have an headache, there is something nice and clear, then something toning a little vulgar immediately after. What I miss is the musical meaning, we are used to harmonic progressions , and pleased when their contrast is well perceived, but if at some point there is a "fall" or a "hole" in harmony, I cannot get the point.

That said, the Equal beating thing was a nice discover, thanks to the people who worked on that.
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#1908168 - 06/04/12 11:45 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
Hi Bill,

I find it so interesting that the people who are so adamant about ET will admit that they will alter ET to suit a piano. That, by very definition, is not ET. It is the same with octave stretch. That, in and of itself, is no longer ET. I guess that to a tuner/tech the definition is no longer important because the usage of the term "Equal Temperament" has been corrupted.

I am a musician. To me, equal temperment is nothing more than a pure octave (Hz X 2 = Octave) with 11 subdivisions in between. It is purely mathmatical. It does not sound very good in reality.

It is so important to consider that a fixed pitch instrument, say a piano, is nothing more than a series of compromises concerning pitch, i.e. temperment. Vocalists, string players, and wind instrumentalists "temper" the pitch all of the time. ET is not a primary consideration, the tonality of a given key signature is what is important.

As you do with your approach to tuning, based on musicality as related to pitch, restore the tonality of playing in different keys. To me, that is a very good approach.

Reading very many of the threads concerning temperament, it seems that many tuner/techs are not versed in the terminology as used and understood by musicians. This is where there is confusion. Many times the aural perception of musicians is dismissed as being lacking. That gets my goat. Other times, it is used to justify their approach to intonation. Often it is from the same person. Hmmmm?

My understanding of equal temperament (above) is based on my musical training and of the laws of physics. Many will not agree with my comprehension of "equal". For any who disagree, please check any music dictionary. Create any frequency (A440 is irrevelant) and apply a logarithmic division of twelve based on Hz. Tune a piano to the absolute frequencies derived. No derivation or stretch applied. I doubt the results would be very satisfactory.

It would be ET, however.

P.S. Bill - I miss the photo of Madison, taken across lake Monona, on your website.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#1908191 - 06/04/12 12:31 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Robert Scott Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/19/03
Posts: 286
Loc: Minnesota
Marty,

You have a very restrictive definition of ET. Actually ET does encompass stretch. All ET means is that the pitches are a geometric progression. But exactly what multiplication factor is used is not specified. An ET octave need not be a perfect 2:1 ratio.
_________________________
Robert Scott
Hopkins, Minnesota
http://www.tunelab-world.com

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#1908195 - 06/04/12 12:36 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Robert Scott]
pyropaul Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 11/16/10
Posts: 190
Loc: Montreal
Robert: since Tunelab allows 3:1 Octaves, is it possible to use the 19th root of 3 for the geometric ratios to encompass a full 12th? I read of this ratio many years ago when I was a member of an internet alternative-tunings mailing list. Would be interested to hear how it would sound on a piano with IH taken into account.

Paul.

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#1908216 - 06/04/12 01:16 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2481
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Bill, you seem to imply in your postings that I, and others, are trying to suppress interest in EBVT and other silly accusations. I had in numerous posts over the last year or so, simply been asking questions about it and the affiliated postings of the subject such as the sample recordings ect. I would at times, like some others, post my own views that differ from yours. Time and time again, a shell game of sorts gets played by numerous people (yourself included) where the topics are diverted away from the real questions at hand; attacks, insults, accusations ect...are always substituted for real answers.

I am glad that a member such as Doel Kees recently supplied us with calculations for instance that were sorely lacking everywhere, including your own website. Why you would not supply this with your temperament(s) brings to mind for me 2 things.

Either this information serves no purpose for a tuner (no comparative relationship amongst the intervals) and you only want the useable 20-30% of the aurally tunable intervals exposed...or...

the wildly fluctuating beat rates of what you consider unimportant intervals bear out the negative impact on music which incorporates these intervals in its structure. The main arguement against any non-ET tuning has been, and always will be the question...."what about the other keys?" This arguement cannot be dismissed unless a musician is willing to fully accept the limitations of playing in more favourable key signatures specifically suited for the temperament. Applying the words "mild" or "spicey" is just another way to cloud over the question of acceptability.

Its obvious your solutions to that question are to suppress the information that illuminates it, or downplay it as being unimportant, or worse yet, attack the person who asks it.

To those artists who claim that EBVT or its variants do not produce unfavourable disjointed beat rates in their music, they should perhaps gleen over the calculations Doel provided to find out what they are doing. After all, if a person cannot hear a M3 double in beat speed from a single chromatic movement up or down, they would have to be insane to think they are picking up on the sweeter nuances of a 5th shifting from a .5 bps rate to zero. Lots of smoke and mirrors is all I can conclude from this.
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#1908217 - 06/04/12 01:17 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
I think that would be true for most any temperament even Bills. It might vary according to what "that" particular piano required. Or, what sounds better, a more stretched, or less stretched octave or what have you. When Bill tuned mine with me, we gave it WAY MORE stretch than we may have otherwise done on another piano but, what was chosen for my piano sounded marvelous! smile
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#1908226 - 06/04/12 01:25 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Withindale Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 2059
Loc: Suffolk, England
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
My understanding of equal temperament (above) is based on my musical training and of the laws of physics.


Marty

The laws of physics complicate the pure mathematics of harmonics by introducing inharmonicity into the equation.

As Robert Scott describes it, ET is inherent in the design of a piano. I imagine that's why it has become the standard.

Other temperaments create consonances and dissonances in the instrument for musical reasons.
_________________________
Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 55" upright
Ibach, 1922 49" upright (project piano)

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#1908238 - 06/04/12 01:38 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Robert Scott]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
Robert,

You have confirmed what I have said. Equal Temperament for a tuner is not the same as it is for a musician or a physicist.

An octave is the doubling of any Hz. That is the book definition of an octave. If it is not, it is a tempering of an octave.

Maybe it is the term "equal" that causes problems? In my mind, equal does not mean "sort of" or stretched. Tuners/Technicians understand ET to be a flexible thing. But then, it is not equal.

Yes, it is semantics. That is what I have been trying to explain. My understanding of ET is as a musician, thought I appreciate and understand the way it is used by a tuner. But, it seems that in fact, it is not actually equal as it is applied to intonation.

The octave of A440 is A=880Hz or A=220Hz. Now you are telling me that it can be either A~880Hz or A~220Hz? - Not to me, certainly, not to me.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#1908240 - 06/04/12 01:44 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
The organ is using that frequency doubling to be in tune. I dont find it particularely "harmonious" in certain type of chords and in some regions.
Our ear is just asking something that differs from the (different) theories of the ET generation.
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#1908241 - 06/04/12 01:44 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Emmery]
RonTuner Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1674
Loc: Chicagoland
Originally Posted By: Emmery

(big snip)
After all, if a person cannot hear a M3 double in beat speed from a single chromatic movement up or down, they would have to be insane to think they are picking up on the sweeter nuances of a 5th shifting from a .5 bps rate to zero. Lots of smoke and mirrors is all I can conclude from this.



You might want to rethink that last statement... The M3 double in speed every octave, not every step! As to your question about the other keys? Vibrato can be fast, slow or anywhere in between. Volume can be loud or soft or anywhere in between. In ET, those M3 beat speeds range from very slow to very fast, just as they do in tonal temperaments - it's just that the construct or order of progression is different. Music is all about contrasts - the point being that composers (at least pre 1900) were aware of the typical contrasts in the tunings of the time and constructed the music to take advantage of both the heightened consonance and dissonance available.

Technicians today are enamored with testing in chromatic order - a progression most music doesn't use. Test your thirds in circle of fifths order all the way around in ET. All disjointed, makes no sense at all... But a tonal tuning? From slower, to faster and back again.

Ron Koval
_________________________
Piano/instrument technician
www.ronkoval.com
@ronkoval

my piano videos:
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=drwoodwind


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#1908244 - 06/04/12 01:46 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Withindale Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 2059
Loc: Suffolk, England
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Equal Temperament for a tuner is not the same as it is for a musician or a physicist.


Marty

Musicians may be mathematicians but tuners have to be physicists.
_________________________
Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 55" upright
Ibach, 1922 49" upright (project piano)

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#1908252 - 06/04/12 02:11 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: RonTuner]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2481
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Originally Posted By: RonTuner
Originally Posted By: Emmery

(big snip)
After all, if a person cannot hear a M3 double in beat speed from a single chromatic movement up or down, they would have to be insane to think they are picking up on the sweeter nuances of a 5th shifting from a .5 bps rate to zero. Lots of smoke and mirrors is all I can conclude from this.



You might want to rethink that last statement... The M3 double in speed every octave, not every step! As to your question about the other keys? Vibrato can be fast, slow or anywhere in between. Volume can be loud or soft or anywhere in between. In ET, those M3 beat speeds range from very slow to very fast, just as they do in tonal temperaments - it's just that the construct or order of progression is different. Music is all about contrasts - the point being that composers (at least pre 1900) were aware of the typical contrasts in the tunings of the time and constructed the music to take advantage of both the heightened consonance and dissonance available.

Technicians today are enamored with testing in chromatic order - a progression most music doesn't use. Test your thirds in circle of fifths order all the way around in ET. All disjointed, makes no sense at all... But a tonal tuning? From slower, to faster and back again.

Ron Koval


Ron, I have been doing this long enough to understand the doubling of frequencies and beat speeds with octaves. i was referring to the M3 listing Mr Kees kindly provided...

Beat frequencies of 5/4 (M3)
0: 0.000: 3.5900
1: 94.910: 6.7440
2: 197.060: 5.3265
3: 297.790: 6.8533
4: 395.790: 7.0417
5: 498.040: 5.9878
6: 595.910: 9.0181
7: 699.310: 5.9857
8: 796.870: 10.1160
9: 896.200: 7.8873
10: 999.060: 7.8891
11: 1096.170: 10.9405
12: 1200.000: 7.1800

I had also pointed out in an earlier thread that what makes largely varying beat rates for neighbouring M3's extremely anoying in music is when you reach that part of the threshold where we lose the distinction of beats and substitute what can be appropriatly called souring. In ET, this occurs somewhere around the F4-A4 region of the keys and it occurs in a smooth progressive transition. In any non ET temperament that varies from fundamental with offsets of more than fractions of a cent, this progressive relationship is lost. It may not get picked up easily in the F2-F3 octave, but certainly rears its ugly head when we hear those beat speeds double and move into that threshold.

Please don't make remarks that music doesn't do this or that or make certain movements between keys. Music has evolved well past the point of the baroque or renaissance period where composers were ignored if the music did not fit in a well constrained slot defined for it. It reminds me of Bill Bremmers point that hugely expanded octaves are acceptable because its not played in music. Sorry, music has evolved so widely in genres that anything can happen, and in any key.
The opening of Chopins' Fantasia Impromptu starts with a held octave along with numerous other pieces. I would puke on my shoes if I heard that opening rolling like some stretched octaves are bing done now. Same goes for numerous jazz pieces which move very chromatically with like shaped chords, not just with M3rds, but minors and 6ths, ect...



Edited by Emmery (06/04/12 02:43 PM)
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#1908254 - 06/04/12 02:15 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Withindale]
Minnesota Marty Offline

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Ian,

I do agree that inharmonicity does play a major role. Non-fixed pitch musicians are constantly, in real time, reacting to the overtones (partials in your lingo) and adjusting instantly to what is perceived. That is why ET is of little importance, other than in theory.

The design of the piano is based on the history and development of Western Musical History and Musicology. It goes back to plainsong (chant) and the subsequent development of harmony. The unison voiced singers heard pitches combined with echos due to reverberation. This led to the concept of consonance and dissonance and scripted multi-part harmony. It is about as far from ET as you can get. A keyboard was still a long way into the future.

Historically, various temperaments come and go. Tastes and preferences constantly evolve. Is ET the preferred choice? Is it the standard? Only to those who are adamantly convinced that it is superior to other temperaments.

ET is not superior, the standard, or preferred, it is merely another option.
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#1908255 - 06/04/12 02:21 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
alfredo capurso Offline
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..."Music is all about contrasts -"...

Ron, perhaps music is all about... many things, perhaps even contrasts but, has nobody explained you that contrast is perceived through different chords and melodies? Nothing to do with poor intonation and tunings? Would you ever sing out of tune, so that you can finally obtain contrast?
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#1908256 - 06/04/12 02:27 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
RonTuner Offline
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Alfredo, perhaps you are unfamiliar with "the blues"???

Ron Koval
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#1908268 - 06/04/12 02:41 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Emmery Offline
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Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Ian,
...ET is not superior, the standard, or preferred, it is merely another option...


Maybe in the Twilight Zone Marty...but not here on earth.

ET is the standard, ET is preferred by the vast majority of musicians, ET is tuned by the overwhelming majority of tuners, and as for its superiority...One can deduce that its overwhelming widespread use makes it so...or one can claim that people are sheeple, everybody has bad taste, except the miniscule minority.

When pianos end up getting redesigned, when physics of sound suddenly changes, when performances are done in zero gravity or in total vacuumes, or when laws are introduced to prohibit playing of music in certain keys or intervals, we can entertain the idea that an alternate temperament will properly address the issues of inharmonicity on a pianos strings in the way ET does.
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#1908272 - 06/04/12 02:52 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
BDB Online   content
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There are only two possible standards for a twelve-tone system: Just intonation, which is unmusical and not well defined, and equal temperament. We can define every other option from how much they diverge from just intonation, which is what one does with beats, or by how much they diverge from equal temperament, which is what one does with cents.
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#1908276 - 06/04/12 02:57 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
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Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty

ET is not superior, the standard, or preferred, it is merely another option.


This is correct in part. ET became mainstream or the generally accepted norm much like VHS did instead of the Beta system which was a much better format. There was no giant conspiracy of musical geniuses hidden in some dark room making it so…. Why does this happen?

Because this is what the market place decided it wanted. The consumer asked for it so much it became eventually the mainstream temperament. Most technicians previous to 1980 or so learned ET. It was the standard for exam purposes also in the tech schools.


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#1908289 - 06/04/12 03:34 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Emmery]
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Emmery,

Thank you for your lovely rant.

I am curious about something. You claim that ET is preferred by the vast majority of musicians. Do you believe that vocalists and instrumentalists are not musicians? They vastly outnumber keyboard players and certainly do not adhere to ET.

Popularity does not equal superiority. Just think of the various fads we have all encountered. Pet rocks were very popular. They then must be superior to a feral rock.

It is true that the laws of physics will not change. That is why ET is a misnomer. It is a temperament, for sure, but it is not as equal as presented by you or others.

Even a piano tuned to your specification would not sound well in outer space. In fact, it would suffer from another law of physics. It's that gravity thing, ya know. There is another problem and we are back to physics again. Without an atmosphere, you could not ascertain whether it was ET or not.

Obviously my deductions differ from yours. You have yet to convince me that I am misdirected.
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#1908297 - 06/04/12 03:49 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Minnesota Marty Offline

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Dan,

I do agree with what you are saying and I like your analogy.

With VHS vs Beta, the public made the choice on cost rather than quality. I don't think that is an issue with tuning, but then, I may be wrong. ET seems to be the chosen "standard" by the tuning community, and not necessarily by the consumer. I would assume that most customers never are given the option.

The big thing is that it is a service, rather than a product. Other than at piano forums such as this one, there is no easily available "Consumer Guide" for selecting a temperament.
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#1908300 - 06/04/12 03:58 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: RonTuner]
alfredo capurso Offline
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Originally Posted By: RonTuner
Alfredo, perhaps you are unfamiliar with "the blues"???

Ron Koval


Ron, can you expand on that? What is it that you mean to say?


Edited by alfredo capurso (06/04/12 03:58 PM)
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#1908302 - 06/04/12 04:03 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Emmery Offline
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Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Emmery,

Thank you for your lovely rant.

I am curious about something. You claim that ET is preferred by the vast majority of musicians. Do you believe that vocalists and instrumentalists are not musicians? They vastly outnumber keyboard players and certainly do not adhere to ET.

Popularity does not equal superiority. Just think of the various fads we have all encountered. Pet rocks were very popular. They then must be superior to a feral rock.

It is true that the laws of physics will not change. That is why ET is a misnomer. It is a temperament, for sure, but it is not as equal as presented by you or others.

Even a piano tuned to your specification would not sound well in outer space. In fact, it would suffer from another law of physics. It's that gravity thing, ya know. There is another problem and we are back to physics again. Without an atmosphere, you could not ascertain whether it was ET or not.

Obviously my deductions differ from yours. You have yet to convince my that I am misdirected.


Sorry for my generalization Marty, we are in a Piano forum, not a vocalist, bagpipe or other instrument forum. The word "pianist" would have been more precise and the statement still stands true. The vast majority of pianists play in ET.

Marty, there is a distinct difference between "popularity" and "fad". Popularity is strictly related to something being well liked in large numbers. A "fad" however is associated with a temporary novelty that attracts those large numbers of people. As the novelty wears off, so the numbers drop.

ET is popular because 50 years ago aproximately the same large portion of pianists used it. Non-ET tunings on the other hand seem to pop up every 5-10 years or so and have always dissappeared into obscurity as soon as the novelty (if any)wore off. Only time will tell if something is popular or a fad. So far ET has faired better than others.

It is unfair to bring semantics into the scheme of things when criticising ET. Yes, the way we execute it on a piano is not perfect. But in the same light, EBVT under the same scrutiny would deserve to get the letter "P" put in front of it standing for "Partially"...it addresses only limited intervals in its equal beating capacity.
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#1908304 - 06/04/12 04:04 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
alfredo capurso Offline
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Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
...Other than at piano forums such as this one, there is no easily available "Consumer Guide" for selecting a temperament.


MM, I'd "select" a temperament by ear, how about you?
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#1908309 - 06/04/12 04:19 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: alfredo capurso]
Minnesota Marty Offline

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Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
...Other than at piano forums such as this one, there is no easily available "Consumer Guide" for selecting a temperament.


MM, I'd "select" a temperament by ear, how about you?


I would select by ear also. I am not a tuner and I have never been able to find a TemperamentMart to make a comprehensive choice. This is a thread which I started. Please read the beginning of the thread and you will have the answer.
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#1908320 - 06/04/12 04:37 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Emmery]
Minnesota Marty Offline

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Emmery,

When there are discussions of this sort, word choice is very important. One can't just toss it off as semantics. That is just an excuse.

Yes, the majority pianists play on pianos tuned to some adaptation of ET. That is not necessarily a choice, however. Please read my recent replies for clarification.

I am not a tuner, but I still am aware that all of the three variations of EBVT are, and have been, easily available in totally complete form. Mr. Bremmer is making the assumption that a competant tuner can work from the basics of the temperaments and use standard practice to complete the tuning.
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#1908334 - 06/04/12 05:00 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
alfredo capurso Offline
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Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
...Other than at piano forums such as this one, there is no easily available "Consumer Guide" for selecting a temperament.


MM, I'd "select" a temperament by ear, how about you?


I would select by ear also. I am not a tuner and I have never been able to find a TemperamentMart to make a comprehensive choice. This is a thread which I started. Please read the beginning of the thread and you will have the answer.


MM, I did read the beginning of this thread of yours, perhaps you prefer to go back there.

..."Here is a recounting of my aural awakening.

In 2004 I engaged Tim Farley to do a total rebuild of the family 1920 Steinway-M. The job was to be a gift to my mother as she was elderly and I wanted her to have the very best. The piano was magnificent after the work and upon arrival. The subsiquent tunings did not have the life and color as when it first arrived and I was baffled. The piano was in excellent tune, but ......
This is about the same time as I joined PW. I learned so much here, and even gained an understanding of temperament. At that time, I assumed that ET was the same as Well Temperament. In conservatory, the concept of temperaments was discussed, but it was not specific.
After my mother passed, the piano went back to Farley's for temporary storage. In preparation for transport to Peoria, IL, I asked for a fresh tuning and a detailed regulation. I could not believe what I was hearing out of a little "M." OMG - The Beethoven Waldstein sang with an incredible voice and the action knocked my sox off.
Within a few days, I called Tim to extend my thanks and share my excitement. He was also pleased with the voice and the action. He shared that the reason that it had such a glorious voice was that he had tuned it to one of Bill's Temperaments (unspecified). Aha! He tried to get Bill but he was booked."...

All the above only makes me understand that you did not like TF's subsequent tunings. Alternatively, that TF's tunings got better, thanks to BB.

..."It was the writing of Mr. Bremmer which peeked my interest. I first ran across his web site when I was in the process of selecting a rebuilder. That site was the first time I was aware of different temperaments applied to a piano. When I contacted him, he was the one to recommend Tim Farley. I was pleased to discover that Bill was a contributor at PW and I could learn more."...

The above is off Topic.

..."After the piano settled into its new space, it was time for a tuning. I got some good recommendations and selected a tuner/tech. He started by doing some playing to acquaint himself with the piano. He looked at me and said, "The Bremmer EBVT Temperament sounds gorgeous on this piano.

I knew my piano was in good hands and good ears."...

So you are saying that when "it was time for a tuning"..."The Bremmer EBVT Temperament" sounded gorgeous on your piano.(?) Let me ask you: why did you want your piano tuned again?

..."There was no reason that Tim Farley needed to contact me for permission to tune my piano to other than ET."..

That is good. Let me ask you: ...other than who's ET?

..."Trust, gentlemen, is trust."...

I may agree.

..."Word of mouth is what it is all about."

Not for piano tuners, MM, especially not for aural piano tuners.

Regards, a.c.


Edited by alfredo capurso (06/04/12 05:05 PM)
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#1908339 - 06/04/12 05:15 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Cinnamonbear Offline
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Originally Posted By: Silverwood Pianos
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty

ET is not superior, the standard, or preferred, it is merely another option.


This is correct in part. ET became mainstream or the generally accepted norm [...] Because this is what the market place decided it wanted. The consumer asked for it so much it became eventually the mainstream temperament. [...].




Dan, can you provide a citation for this? I don't mean to be confrontational at all. I have often wondered just how ET became so mainstream. I am curious to know if what you are saying can be borne out by some kind of primary or secondary source, or is the notion that consumers asked for it a supposition? Thanks!

--Andy
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#1908357 - 06/04/12 05:42 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Olek Offline
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Pills for thrills ! the infamous "piano tuner pill" strike again !

To be honest (when you read that now you can be sure I lie) the worst ear paired people I've met where musicians, mostly pianists for a reason that escapes me totally .

I've see one that was expecting to play in chamber music on a piano with new strings and no tuning for 12 months more than 1 tone flat)

And many who hear music in their brain but not in their ears.
I have seen "the piano of the piano teacher" (!) (better than the dance hall piano but often not much)

The piano of the one who have so good ear that he prefer to have a totally false piano than one which is just a little off

There are a few, really a few pianists who are really attentive to the justness. And it is better for the pianist generally speaking as good tuners are really not the most common specie to find (stability wise, but also for general intonation).
Also, a good tuning will take more time than a quick done approximative job, be it with ETD help (in fact it would be probably faster by ear)
SO I dont say many cannot hear correctly, but they where not in the correct musical environment often, and it is not their fault.

The piano tuner have a huge responsibility, as pianos are the instruments used to learn justness to children, in schools/music schools. (if one analyze the tuning of many digital pianos as those are used today, many of them are really less well tuned than a real piano)

That said, a good tuning, when done often enough, will stay very musical and for a long time, the initial coherence is probably giving some stability.

I always wondered if the fact that mostly only concert tuners are involved in finding a way to have a "definitive" tuning is not due to the need to have the customer calling back sooner.


Many pianists dont expect to have a concert tuning every time (or they dont have the budget for) , but they need an instrument with some tone and stability. They seem to prefer to have an evened touch /tone than an absolute superb tuning, if time is constrained I choose for the action and hammers first, when it is time for (knowing my tuning can stay put enough for a few months more helps to be in a secured feeling about that).
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#1908361 - 06/04/12 05:47 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Olek Offline
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The only thing that changed is the use of the FBI to keep a control on the opening of the octaves. The ladder of thirds temperament provided that. more precision. AT some point it changed the idea of the temperament, and it became a set of compromizes. That is what make sit sound so unfocused and lacking congruency.

But the same tools allow to make a nice job too. There only the musical ear/culture of the tuner can make the difference.
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#1908365 - 06/04/12 05:52 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: alfredo capurso]
Minnesota Marty Offline

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Hi Alfredo,

Let me try to answer your questions. I was not totally clear in some areas.

I didn't mean to imply that Mr. Farleys tunings were not to my liking. It is just the opposite. TF only tuned the piano when it was in his shop, before shipping, on both occasions. The subsequent tunings were by another tuner in my mother's home. It is three hours distant from Tim's shop. Tim's tunings were based on BB's EBVT. To the best of my knowledge, BB has never tuned my piano. It was another tuner who tuned the piano to ET and I found it dull in comparison. That was after the piano was delivered.

Three years after the piano was rebuilt, it was returned to Tim for temporary storage. After removal from storage, it was then that the piano received a full regulation and fresh tuning.

I'm not sure how anything can be off topic - it's my thread. It was included to form the topic and my introduction to temperaments other than ET.

After a piano settles in to a new environment for about a month, it is always my practice to have it tuned. The question of "who's ET" confuses me. The tuner is irrevelant. It is the difference between ET and alternate temperaments to which I am referring.

I shall remember that word of mouth is not important to tuners. It seems to me it would only cut down on new customers for you. However, if a pianist asks me for a tuner recommendation, I will still pass on the names of those that I respect and trust.
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#1908371 - 06/04/12 05:59 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
alfredo capurso Offline
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Andy, perhaps (by now) your reading was enough for you to acknowledge that ET has (so far) been more of a targeted concept than an ubiquitous and/or univocal practice.

I'm sure it will not be difficult for you to understand that musicians were (and will be) aiming at a temperament that allows modulations throughout all keys, while keeping "wolf" intervals out, a temperament that can (hopefully) open to full resonance and sound intonation.

The above does not mean that the tuning of a WT cannot be better than an ET attempt, as that may depend on the individual ET's execution.

In my opinion, as a musician you'd better comment on piano tuners than commenting on temperaments. Do you know what I mean?
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#1908382 - 06/04/12 06:10 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Minnesota Marty Offline

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I am now totally lost in ESL translation.

I have no clue!

Does the FBI tune pianos or do they just take pills?
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#1908391 - 06/04/12 06:22 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
alfredo capurso Offline
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MM wrote: ..."I didn't mean to imply that Mr. Farleys tunings were not to my liking. It is just the opposite. TF only tuned the piano when it was in his shop, before shipping, on both occasions. The subsequent tunings were by another tuner in my mother's home. It is three hours distant from Tim's shop. Tim's tunings were based on BB's EBVT. To the best of my knowledge, BB has never tuned my piano. It was another tuner who tuned the piano to ET and I found it dull in comparison. That was after the piano was delivered."...

Why do you imply ET instead of the tuner who tuned your piano to (?) ET?

..."Three years after the piano was rebuilt, it was returned to Tim for temporary storage. After removal from storage, it was then that the piano received a full regulation and fresh tuning."...

Yes, that's clear enough.

..."I'm not sure how anything can be off topic - it's my thread. It was included to form the topic and my introduction to temperaments other than ET."...

In my mind, being in your own thread... does not mean that you can write what ever goes through your mind, unless you want to waste readers' expectations.

..."After a piano settles in to a new environment for about a month, it is always my practice to have it tuned. The question of "who's ET" confuses me. The tuner is irrevelant. It is the difference between ET and alternate temperaments to which I am referring."...

For me your statement "The tuner is irrelevant" says it all.

..."I shall remember that word of mouth is not important to tuners. It seems to me it would only cut down on new customers for you."...

MM, "word of mouth" has its meaning amongst customers, not when tuners - especially aural tuners - want to analyze temperaments and tuning issues. Perhaps I misunderstood (Edit: or you have missed the "Pianist Corner" forum).

..."However, if a pianist asks me for a tuner recommendation, I will still pass on the names of those that I respect and trust."...

I would do the same.


Edited by alfredo capurso (06/04/12 06:39 PM)
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#1908400 - 06/04/12 06:52 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: alfredo capurso]
Minnesota Marty Offline

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Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso

Why do you imply ET instead of the tuner who tuned your piano to (?) ET?

For me your statement "The tuner is irrelevant" says it all.

MM, "word of mouth" has its meaning amongst customers, not when tuners - especially aural tuners - want to analyze temperaments and tuning issues. Perhaps I misunderstood.


Why on earth would you want to know the name of a tuner who happens to be thousands of miles away from you? It was years ago, I did not hire him, he was my mother's tuner, I have no idea what his name is and HIS NAME is irrelevant to me.

Sorry that you don't consider "word of mouth" to be free advertizing. Yes, you misunderstood.

Thank you for your critique of my mastery of English, choice of content, and syntactical usage.
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#1908480 - 06/04/12 10:00 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
RonTuner Offline
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Originally Posted By: Silverwood Pianos
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty

ET is not superior, the standard, or preferred, it is merely another option.




Because this is what the market place decided it wanted. The consumer asked for it so much it became eventually the mainstream temperament.




I don't believe this to be a true statement with any historical backing. Do you perhaps have this documented somewhere?

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#1908489 - 06/04/12 10:20 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
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We definitely have documentation that equal temperament was standard in the Victorian Era. It is in Helmholtz. I do not believe there is any documentation of any standard temperament other than equal temperament ever.
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#1908501 - 06/04/12 10:53 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: BDB]
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Originally Posted By: BDB
We definitely have documentation that equal temperament was standard in the Victorian Era. It is in Helmholtz. I do not believe there is any documentation of any standard temperament other than equal temperament ever.

We know for sure meantone was used up to the late baroque for keyboards. Lutes were in ET, which is why they never play together in for example Monteverdi.

Kees

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#1908508 - 06/04/12 11:06 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
RonTuner Offline
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No, not whether it existed, or was tuned or even aimed for - I'd like to see some evidence of the market demanding ET. I believe the widespread use of ET came about because of vocation of the "professional" piano tuner, as opposed to any need or desire by any musicians or piano owners. We just codified and tested it right into the mainstream...

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#1908515 - 06/04/12 11:34 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: DoelKees]
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Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Originally Posted By: BDB
We definitely have documentation that equal temperament was standard in the Victorian Era. It is in Helmholtz. I do not believe there is any documentation of any standard temperament other than equal temperament ever.

We know for sure meantone was used up to the late baroque for keyboards. Lutes were in ET, which is why they never play together in for example Monteverdi.

Kees


But there were all sorts of meantones, even more than one on the same instrument. There was no standard temperament.
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#1908518 - 06/04/12 11:40 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: RonTuner]
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Originally Posted By: RonTuner
No, not whether it existed, or was tuned or even aimed for - I'd like to see some evidence of the market demanding ET. I believe the widespread use of ET came about because of vocation of the "professional" piano tuner, as opposed to any need or desire by any musicians or piano owners. We just codified and tested it right into the mainstream...

Ron Koval


There was a need for standardization as pianos became so difficult to tune that most people could not change temperaments as desired. As I pointed out, the options are limited.

There are other instruments, like harps, which are tuned when they are constructed permanently. I believe that equal temperament was standard for them ever since Erard invented the double-action harp.
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#1908539 - 06/05/12 12:31 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Cinnamonbear]
OperaTenor Offline
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Originally Posted By: Cinnamonbear
Originally Posted By: Silverwood Pianos
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty

ET is not superior, the standard, or preferred, it is merely another option.


This is correct in part. ET became mainstream or the generally accepted norm [...] Because this is what the market place decided it wanted. The consumer asked for it so much it became eventually the mainstream temperament. [...].




Dan, can you provide a citation for this? I don't mean to be confrontational at all. I have often wondered just how ET became so mainstream. I am curious to know if what you are saying can be borne out by some kind of primary or secondary source, or is the notion that consumers asked for it a supposition? Thanks!

--Andy




This book will tell you how it became the recognized standard for at least most of the 20th century.

When I apprenticed in 1976, according to my mentor, there was only one temperament; ET.
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#1908541 - 06/05/12 12:38 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: BDB]
OperaTenor Offline
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Originally Posted By: BDB
Originally Posted By: RonTuner
No, not whether it existed, or was tuned or even aimed for - I'd like to see some evidence of the market demanding ET. I believe the widespread use of ET came about because of vocation of the "professional" piano tuner, as opposed to any need or desire by any musicians or piano owners. We just codified and tested it right into the mainstream...

Ron Koval


There was a need for standardization as pianos became so difficult to tune that most people could not change temperaments as desired. As I pointed out, the options are limited.

There are other instruments, like harps, which are tuned when they are constructed permanently. I believe that equal temperament was standard for them ever since Erard invented the double-action harp.


According to Temperament, ET evolved through the difficulties with playing different keys/scales on the organ and its predecessor instruments more than anything else, and the biggest fights over it went on during the Renaissance. For hundreds of years, ET was considered heretical because pure fifths were a gift from God, and to alter them in a tonal compromise to balance other keys was marring what God had given us. Eventually, as music grew in complexity with polyphony, ET became accepted as the only way to achieve tonal balance.
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#1908545 - 06/05/12 12:48 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Olek Offline
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What do say that book?
Your mentor may be speaking of pianos I suppose. saying that thete is only one temp can only apply to them. Harpsichords where always tuned differently even if a modern era have probably see the absence of HT for a time
Even today Et is widely asked ( to avoid wolves) when tuning old instruments for baroco music. Musicians ask for Et with aan air that make me think their Ut experiences where not that good.
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#1908546 - 06/05/12 12:51 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
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I would not take the Isacoff book as absolutely reliable. But there is plenty of other evidence.
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#1908547 - 06/05/12 12:51 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
OperaTenor Offline
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Isaac, yes, my mentor was referring only to pianos.

The book discusses the evolution of ET via all of those old temperaments.
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#1908605 - 06/05/12 04:53 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Olek Offline
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We are lucky in Europe a we have learned the hard way to be attentove but not trust blindly what comes from overseas. There is a tendency to propose some simplification of perfectly valid concepts. Very often the essence of things is lost in that analysis.

Mostly I wonder how concert work can be learned when the concert halls are not human size.

You better help Plns who is anxiously waiting for your comments on the tuning samples he provided
May be you have no words to explain himand analyse what he did, that would proove the absence of conceptualisation I suspect on your side when it comes to unison and consonance work.
Or you are not generous enough to help a beginner tuner who is doing perfectly well, to me, anyway working in the good direction.
With coherent instructions tuners can learn in more or less 2 years to provide a very pleasing and musical tone.
With the common instructions one have to be lucky attain some better trainings or meet the good person.



Edited by Kamin (06/05/12 06:45 AM)
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#1908620 - 06/05/12 06:39 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Mark R. Offline
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Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
I am a musician. To me, equal temperment is nothing more than a pure octave (Hz X 2 = Octave) with 11 subdivisions in between. It is purely mathmatical. It does not sound very good in reality.


That may be ET to you, fine. But don't expect your understanding to hold true as a general and universal definition!

I am also a musician. And I submit to you that if you want to discuss temperament, especially on a piano forum, you widen your horizons, and possibly correct your (mis)understanding.

For starters (but by no means the only source), you might go to Wikipedia:

Quote:
An equal temperament is a musical temperament, or a system of tuning, in which every pair of adjacent notes has an identical frequency ratio.


No mention of any interval size there. Simply a geometric progression of frequencies - that's it.

In fact, there are infinitely many equal temperaments, of which your understanding (octave = 2x Hz / x Hz, with 12 semitones, i.e. semitone ratio equals 12th root of 2, often called 12 tone equal temperament, 12-TET) is only one. To my knowledge, ET is neither restricted to the use of the octave (2x/x) as defining interval, nor does the defining interval have to be divided into 12 equal parts.

Some other ETs that have pretty similar semitones to 12-TET, are 19th root of 3 (pure twelfths spanning 19 equal semitones) and 7th root of 3/2 (pure fifths spanning 7 equal semitones, Pythagorean tuning). But then there are also those ETs that have much larger or smaller (semi)tones, e.g. 7-TET (7 equal tones in a 2x/x octave) or 19-TET (19 equal semitones in a 2x/x octave). In fact, there is a whole continuum of equal temperaments, as shown further down that Wikipedia page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Syntonic_Tuning_Continuum.jpg

And all of these equal temperaments have not even taken inharmonicity into account! The fact that octaves are stretched on a piano, in order to obtain a better matching of partials, doesn't make the temperament any less equal.

There is no discrepancy between the maths, the physics and the musicality of a piano.

Just my grad - umm, schisma - umm, 2 cents, give or take...


Edited by Mark R. (06/05/12 06:55 AM)
Edit Reason: added 12-TET as a term, also "to my knowledge"
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#1908626 - 06/05/12 07:03 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Mark R.]
Loren D Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mark R.
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
I am a musician. To me, equal temperment is nothing more than a pure octave (Hz X 2 = Octave) with 11 subdivisions in between. It is purely mathmatical. It does not sound very good in reality.


That may be ET to you, fine. But don't expect your understanding to hold true as a general and universal definition!

I am also a musician. And I submit to you that if you want to discuss temperament, especially on a piano forum, you widen your horizons, and possibly correct your (mis)understanding.

For starters (but by no means the only source), you might go to Wikipedia:

Quote:
An equal temperament is a musical temperament, or a system of tuning, in which every pair of adjacent notes has an identical frequency ratio.


No mention of any interval size there. Simply a geometric progression of frequencies - that's it.

In fact, there are infinitely many equal temperaments, of which your understanding (octave = 2x Hz / x Hz, with 12 semitones, i.e. semitone ratio equals 12th root of 2, often called 12 tone equal temperament, 12-TET) is only one. To my knowledge, ET is neither restricted to the use of the octave (2x/x) as defining interval, nor does the defining interval have to be divided into 12 equal parts.

Some other ETs that have pretty similar semitones to 12-TET, are 19th root of 3 (pure twelfths spanning 19 equal semitones) and 7th root of 3/2 (pure fifths spanning 7 equal semitones, Pythagorean tuning). But then there are also those ETs that have much larger or smaller (semi)tones, e.g. 7-TET (7 equal tones in a 2x/x octave) or 19-TET (19 equal semitones in a 2x/x octave). In fact, there is a whole continuum of equal temperaments, as shown further down that Wikipedia page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Syntonic_Tuning_Continuum.jpg

And all of these equal temperaments have not even taken inharmonicity into account! The fact that octaves are stretched on a piano, in order to obtain a better matching of partials, doesn't make the temperament any less equal.

There is no discrepancy between the maths, the physics and the musicality of a piano.

Just my grad - umm, schisma - umm, 2 cents, give or take...


Wikipedia? Seriously? The encyclopedia that ANYONE can edit and every other "fact" has *citation needed* appended to it, meaning there is nothing backing it up? Right.

Wikipedia is a place where good questions get bad answers. It is not reliable. At the college where my daughter teaches, it's not even allowable as a reference source for that reason.

Btw, his definition of ET is correct. It divides the octave into 12 equal semitones. Without it, F# and Gb are no longer the same note.
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#1908632 - 06/05/12 07:15 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
RonTuner Offline
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Picture a ruler with all of those equally spaced markings...

Now picture that same ruler printed on a stretchy piece of rubber. Pull on the ends (change the octave width) and all of the markings are still equally spaced...

Ron Koval
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#1908636 - 06/05/12 07:20 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Mark R. Offline
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Loren,

Firstly, I did say: for starters, and by no means the only source.

Secondly, Marty's definition included very pertinently the octave as a doubling of frequency. If you call his definition correct, how can you even say you're tuning a piano to ET if A4 = 440Hz but
... A5 is not tuned to 880Hz?
... A6 is not tuned to 1760Hz?
... nor A3 to 220?
... nor A2 to 110?

By his definition, your octaves aren't even octaves, so your temperament can't be ET. So what temperament are you tuning then?


Edited by Mark R. (06/05/12 07:24 AM)
Edit Reason: cross-posted with Ron, hence addressed this post to Loren, also corrected A1 to A2
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#1908638 - 06/05/12 07:25 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Loren D Offline
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If A4 is 440, A5 is going to be 880 + some, due to stretch. 880.9, for instance. But the tuning is still based on a temperament octave that is divided into 12 equal semitones. As Ron said, stretch the rubber ruler, and the markings are still evenly spaced.
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#1908643 - 06/05/12 07:39 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Loren D Offline
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You're mixing stretch due to inharmonicity with temperament, which are two different things. The tuning is still based on a system of 12 equal semitones. If, on a piano, you tuned pure mathematical octaves, you'd wind up with a poorly tuned piano. The treble would be flat and the bass would be sharp.

edit: This holds true no matter what temperament the tuning is based on.


Edited by Loren D (06/05/12 07:40 AM)
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#1908645 - 06/05/12 07:52 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Mark R. Offline
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Loren,

If we're both in agreement with Ron, why are you raking me over the coals?

One of the stretches of Ron's rubber ruler will correspond exactly to 19 equal markings in a P12. Is that ET or not? Certainly Bernhard Stopper calls it an ET - I just checked on his website. Bernhard sent me his temperament, and it is indeed based on a P12, not a P8.

Now, if Marty is indeed correct, as you say he is, then I'm afraid Mr Stopper is wrong in calling this an ET.
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#1908646 - 06/05/12 07:55 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: RonTuner]
Minnesota Marty Offline

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Originally Posted By: RonTuner
Picture a ruler with all of those equally spaced markings...

Now picture that same ruler printed on a stretchy piece of rubber. Pull on the ends (change the octave width) and all of the markings are still equally spaced...

Ron Koval


That is the point and you have just illustrated what I am saying. You are attempting to change what an octave is and inserting semitones between an interval which is not the original octave. It still forms a geometric relationship, but it is no longer based on the starting defined Hz. So, all you have done is to raise the pitch of the stretchy rubber. If the fundimental pitch of your hypothetical octave was C, you might now have an octave with the fundimental of C#. (or D, or D# ...) Even though, visually, it appears to be stretching an octave, it is merely raising the pitch and the semitones in between.
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#1908648 - 06/05/12 07:57 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Loren D Offline
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Who's raking you over the coals? I responded to your assertion that If A4 is 440 and A5 is not 880, it's not equal temperament. If I misread or misunderstood, sorry!
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#1908651 - 06/05/12 08:04 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Loren D]
Olek Offline
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Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
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Originally Posted By: Loren D
Originally Posted By: Mark R.
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
I am a musician. To me, equal temperment is nothing more than a pure octave (Hz X 2 = Octave) with 11 subdivisions in between. It is purely mathmatical. It does not sound very good in reality.


That may be ET to you, fine. But don't expect your understanding to hold true as a general and universal definition!

I am also a musician. And I submit to you that if you want to discuss temperament, especially on a piano forum, you widen your horizons, and possibly correct your (mis)understanding.

For starters (but by no means the only source), you might go to Wikipedia:

Quote:
An equal temperament is a musical temperament, or a system of tuning, in which every pair of adjacent notes has an identical frequency ratio.


No mention of any interval size there. Simply a geometric progression of frequencies - that's it.

In fact, there are infinitely many equal temperaments, of which your understanding (octave = 2x Hz / x Hz, with 12 semitones, i.e. semitone ratio equals 12th root of 2, often called 12 tone equal temperament, 12-TET) is only one. To my knowledge, ET is neither restricted to the use of the octave (2x/x) as defining interval, nor does the defining interval have to be divided into 12 equal parts.

Some other ETs that have pretty similar semitones to 12-TET, are 19th root of 3 (pure twelfths spanning 19 equal semitones) and 7th root of 3/2 (pure fifths spanning 7 equal semitones, Pythagorean tuning). But then there are also those ETs that have much larger or smaller (semi)tones, e.g. 7-TET (7 equal tones in a 2x/x octave) or 19-TET (19 equal semitones in a 2x/x octave). In fact, there is a whole continuum of equal temperaments, as shown further down that Wikipedia page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Syntonic_Tuning_Continuum.jpg

And all of these equal temperaments have not even taken inharmonicity into account! The fact that octaves are stretched on a piano, in order to obtain a better matching of partials, doesn't make the temperament any less equal.

There is no discrepancy between the maths, the physics and the musicality of a piano.

Just my grad - umm, schisma - umm, 2 cents, give or take...


Wikipedia? Seriously? The encyclopedia that ANYONE can edit and every other "fact" has *citation needed* appended to it, meaning there is nothing backing it up? Right.

Wikipedia is a place where good questions get bad answers. It is not reliable. At the college where my daughter teaches, it's not even allowable as a reference source for that reason.

Btw, his definition of ET is correct. It divides the octave into 12 equal semitones. Without it, F# and Gb are no longer the same note.




Wikipedia is collaborative and may chnge definitions dpending of the day. But what is learneef in some colleages is certainly no more scientific truth so your argument is irrelevant wink
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#1908653 - 06/05/12 08:12 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Olek]
Loren D Offline
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Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: Kamin
Originally Posted By: Loren D
Originally Posted By: Mark R.
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
I am a musician. To me, equal temperment is nothing more than a pure octave (Hz X 2 = Octave) with 11 subdivisions in between. It is purely mathmatical. It does not sound very good in reality.


That may be ET to you, fine. But don't expect your understanding to hold true as a general and universal definition!

I am also a musician. And I submit to you that if you want to discuss temperament, especially on a piano forum, you widen your horizons, and possibly correct your (mis)understanding.

For starters (but by no means the only source), you might go to Wikipedia:

Quote:
An equal temperament is a musical temperament, or a system of tuning, in which every pair of adjacent notes has an identical frequency ratio.


No mention of any interval size there. Simply a geometric progression of frequencies - that's it.

In fact, there are infinitely many equal temperaments, of which your understanding (octave = 2x Hz / x Hz, with 12 semitones, i.e. semitone ratio equals 12th root of 2, often called 12 tone equal temperament, 12-TET) is only one. To my knowledge, ET is neither restricted to the use of the octave (2x/x) as defining interval, nor does the defining interval have to be divided into 12 equal parts.

Some other ETs that have pretty similar semitones to 12-TET, are 19th root of 3 (pure twelfths spanning 19 equal semitones) and 7th root of 3/2 (pure fifths spanning 7 equal semitones, Pythagorean tuning). But then there are also those ETs that have much larger or smaller (semi)tones, e.g. 7-TET (7 equal tones in a 2x/x octave) or 19-TET (19 equal semitones in a 2x/x octave). In fact, there is a whole continuum of equal temperaments, as shown further down that Wikipedia page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Syntonic_Tuning_Continuum.jpg

And all of these equal temperaments have not even taken inharmonicity into account! The fact that octaves are stretched on a piano, in order to obtain a better matching of partials, doesn't make the temperament any less equal.

There is no discrepancy between the maths, the physics and the musicality of a piano.

Just my grad - umm, schisma - umm, 2 cents, give or take...


Wikipedia? Seriously? The encyclopedia that ANYONE can edit and every other "fact" has *citation needed* appended to it, meaning there is nothing backing it up? Right.

Wikipedia is a place where good questions get bad answers. It is not reliable. At the college where my daughter teaches, it's not even allowable as a reference source for that reason.

Btw, his definition of ET is correct. It divides the octave into 12 equal semitones. Without it, F# and Gb are no longer the same note.




Wikipedia is collaborative and may chnge definitions dpending of the day. But what is learneef in some colleages is certainly no more scientific truth so your argument is irrelevant wink


Not so. In a college, someone doesn't just walk in off the street and starting teaching a class. Colleges use text books where information is sourced and referenced. Does scientific understanding and knowledge change? Yes, of course. But it's a result of greater understanding, not because someone who doesn't know what he's talking about decided to present information as fact.
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#1908654 - 06/05/12 08:13 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Loren D Offline
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Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
*citation needed* means just that. It's not backed up or referenced. If you feel comfortable with that, go for it!
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#1908660 - 06/05/12 08:22 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
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Gentlemen,

This thread has now come to the premiss of what I have been stating throughout this thread.

Equal Temperament is, in fact, not equal. If an ocatve is no longer a doubling of Hz, it is no longer an octave. The definitation of "octave" has been changed in your understanding.

May I propose that what you refer to as ET should actually be called AET.

Please proceed with tuning pianos to Adjusted Equal Temperament. Or if you prefer, call it Stretched Equal Temperament. SET would be better, anyway.
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#1908664 - 06/05/12 08:33 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Loren D Offline
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Marty, we are talking about the properties of the acoustic string and its associated anomalies (inharmonicity) which require that stretch.

Tune an electronic organ, and the stretch goes away, making mathematically correct octaves possible. Both are equal temperament. One has partials that run sharp of the fundamental, while the other doesn't.

Call it what you want, but the temperament octave on which the whole tuning is based is a system where 12 semitones are equally spaced.
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#1908671 - 06/05/12 08:59 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Mark R. Offline
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Originally Posted By: Loren D
Who's raking you over the coals? I responded to your assertion that If A4 is 440 and A5 is not 880, it's not equal temperament. If I misread or misunderstood, sorry!


Well, your reaction to my earlier post, while ignoring completely what I'd written, contained essentially two parts:
1) A long part, saying that Wikipedia is #$%^&*!
2) A short part, saying that Marty's definition of ET is correct. (Do you still think so?)

The 220/440/880 post was not my assertion, but based on his definition of an octave.

I'm still wondering: is P12 = 19 equal semitones (Stopper-Stimmung) an ET, or isn't it? By Marty's definition, with which you agreed earlier, it can't be. But by Ron's rubber ruler analogy, with which you apparently also agree, it is! According to Bernhard himself, it's certainly an ET. So what will it be?

You said that I'm mixing iH-related stretch with temperament - as though the two could really be separate on a piano. But can they ever? I've never heard of a (piano) temperament with 2:1 temperament octave. To my knowledge, it is already stretched at least to 4:2 to allow for iH.

In Bernhard's case, the amount of stretch corresponds to P12 = 19 equal semitones. And that's all I tried to say in my Wiki-containing post: I think it's pointless and frankly wrong to speak of a strict 2:1 octave when defining ET for the piano. One of the things I like about Bernhard's approach is that he applies only this one yardstick, perfect 12ths, from A0 to C8. The temperament octave is no different from any other on the piano. In a certain sense, this is "more equal" than 4:2 in the temperament, 6:3 in the bass, "mindless" in the treble and possibly 2:1 in the high treble.


Edited by Mark R. (06/05/12 09:08 AM)
Edit Reason: changed C88 to C8
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#1908673 - 06/05/12 09:06 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: alfredo capurso]
RonTuner Offline
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Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso
Originally Posted By: RonTuner
Alfredo, perhaps you are unfamiliar with "the blues"???

Ron Koval


Ron, can you expand on that? What is it that you mean to say?


The Blues is an American musical style that comes from pain and suffering... It is common to use notes not available on the keyboard - forcing pianist to play two chromatic notes next to each other to approximate the effect.. I was responding to your statement about tonal temperaments being "out of tune", which (outside of unisons and octaves) is a cultural and learned phenomenon. While many tuners would like to think that equal temperament is universal, it is actually a very small subset in the music world; it only really exists on keyboard instruments, as well as some fretted instruments - and then only if the tuning follows very strict parameters that many ET technicians have admitted not really following...

The idea of the Blues brings up a concept that often gets lost in these discussions. The idea of "sounding better" or "sounding worse" shouldn't really be the focus. I like to think of it as offering a range, or expanding the palette available to the composer.

One of the early demonstrations I went to (before I was interested in anything other than ET) included an old piece of music that was written after the death of the composer's wife. Played in ET, it was sad - kindof "I hit my toe on the dresser and it hurts pretty bad". When it was played in the other temperament (don't know what) The pain and anguish made possible by the tuning made me squirm in my seat. I wish I knew the composer and piece now!

Ron Koval
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#1908675 - 06/05/12 09:09 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Loren D Offline
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Wikipedia IS *$^%&$. I stand by that. smile

Stretch vs. temperament. Yes, they are two different things. As I said, tune an organ, skip the stretch. No need to stretch since you are not dealing with the inharmonicity inherent to a vibrating string. Again, using the electronic organ, there is your 2:1 octave, working well within equal temperament.

Inharmonicity is something piano tuners must deal with, but it is still separate from temperament. Stretch or not (piano or organ), the octave is still divided into 12 equal semitones. Stretching causes the tones to get wider as we progress up and down, but relative to each other, they are still equally spaced.
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#1908682 - 06/05/12 09:23 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Emmery Offline
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Gentlemen, I don't understand why the topic of octave stretch, be it natural or artificial, raises questions about temperament. You are discussing apples and oranges.
The temperament refers to what is happening within the octave (generally), the rest is simply an expansion of that to the extents of the keyboard. For the purposes of tuning, some folks expand the temperament octave slightly, but ending up 35 cents sharp of theoretical on the highest note is not tempering, its stretching.

From a dictionary....
equal temperament....the system commonly used in keyboard instruments, giving a scale based on an octave divided into twelve exactly equal semitones
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#1908687 - 06/05/12 09:32 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Mark R.]
Cinnamonbear Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mark R.
Loren,

If we're both in agreement with Ron, why are you raking me over the coals? [...]



I think we reached a point in these threads a while ago where just about everybody is ready to rake anybody over the coals. grin It's like putting a whole bunch of grown cats in a small room, and even cats that would otherwise get along fine are hissing and spitting at each other. eek If I could bring a bit of Pianist Corner into the Tuner/Tech forum today, it would be to say, "WHAT AN AWESOME THREAD!" wink
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#1908708 - 06/05/12 10:12 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Loren D]
Minnesota Marty Offline

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Originally Posted By: Loren D
Marty, we are talking about the properties of the acoustic string and its associated anomalies (inharmonicity) which require that stretch.

Tune an electronic organ, and the stretch goes away, making mathematically correct octaves possible. Both are equal temperament. One has partials that run sharp of the fundamental, while the other doesn't.

Call it what you want, but the temperament octave on which the whole tuning is based is a system where 12 semitones are equally spaced.


I couldn't agree more and I understand all that has been stated in this thread.

However, please go back to the very beginning of this thread. I prefer to have all three of my pianos tuned to a temperament other than ET. Are the octaves stretched? Certainly. Are the intervals in between based on an absolute mathematical progression? No, they are not. The derivation, measured in cents, is miniscule when compared to absolute ET. The result, perceived by me, is the generation of tonal color.

My musical ear wants to hear the differentation between keys. I prefer to perceive a tonal difference between D-Maj and D#-Maj. If needed or desired, I can always transpose a composition. The new key will then have a different tonal color than the original. That is the point.

There is much discussion of ET as a theoretical concept which has, through evolution, become the norm. In practice, it really doesn't exist with anything other than fixed tone generators. It is the inharmonicity, overtones, partials, which bring life to any given pitch. Single pitch, and not an interval. It is the interaction of intervals to then form our concept of intonation. From there, it becomes layer upon layer as more notes are added. The concept holds true for any scale, diatonic or not.

It all boils down to what we percieve aurally. I prefer a temperament choice which emphasizes key color rather than trying to negate it. Some temperaments suit a given piano better than others. That is where the tuning skill (art) of a gifted tuner comes into play.
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#1908719 - 06/05/12 10:35 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Emmery Offline
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Unfortunately Marty, anything other than ET will proportionally create inequalities of increased consonance and dissonance if a musician freely works in all keys. Folks who favour UT's have either developed an audio filtering of some sort to eliminate that dissonance, or have restricted themselves from playing in certain keys. Folks who adhere to ET, can pick up any piece of music and play it without resorting to transposing or mentally blocking out highly disproportionate dissonance. The concept of fully appreciating any art intrinsically involves increasing ones perception, not filterring it or pretending to not notice things that are present.


Edited by Emmery (06/05/12 10:37 AM)
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#1908740 - 06/05/12 11:03 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Emmery]
Ed Foote Offline
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Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 1228
Loc: Tennessee
Originally Posted By: Emmery
Unfortunately Marty, anything other than ET will proportionally create inequalities of increased consonance and dissonance if a musician freely works in all keys. Folks who favour UT's have either developed an audio filtering of some sort to eliminate that dissonance, or have restricted themselves from playing in certain keys. Folks who adhere to ET, can pick up any piece of music and play it without resorting to transposing or mentally blocking out highly disproportionate dissonance. The concept of fully appreciating any art intrinsically involves increasing ones perception, not filterring it or pretending to not notice things that are present.


Greetings,
You are dead wrong. However in the spirit of universal typecasting....

Folks who favor UT's are folks that can appreciate the increased complexity of music that uses more than one universal size third, and who have increased their musical horizons to at least consider the more plausible intonation of the past. They find beauty in the contrast of dissonance and consonance.

Folks that consider only ET to be in tune are those that have restricted themselves to one tonality and are not capable of finding musical value in anything more highly tempered than ET. Their optimum musical value for a third is 14 cents, which is wildly out of tune. Anything more tempered than that is objectionable, leading to the logic that the ET purist prefers every third to be tuned at the absolute limit of dissonance, just so they are all the same!

In the total effect, ET creates far more dissonance than Wt's in the music that has been written, unless the pianist plays the same amount in all 12 keys,
( which I have never seen happen).

Regards,

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#1908744 - 06/05/12 11:04 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Emmery]
Minnesota Marty Offline

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Registered: 05/15/12
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Originally Posted By: Emmery
Unfortunately Marty, anything other than ET will proportionally create inequalities of increased consonance and dissonance if a musician freely works in all keys. Folks who favour UT's have either developed an audio filtering of some sort to eliminate that dissonance, or have restricted themselves from playing in certain keys. Folks who adhere to ET, can pick up any piece of music and play it without resorting to transposing or mentally blocking out highly disproportionate dissonance. The concept of fully appreciating any art intrinsically involves increasing ones perception, not filterring it or pretending to not notice things that are present.


Say What?

You have attempted to discredit any concept of tonal color. I don't "filter" what I hear. It is that very dissonance that is so appealing.

Have you ever listened, really listened, to a fine orchestra or chorus? ET it ain't!
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#1908755 - 06/05/12 11:15 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
RonTuner Offline
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Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Originally Posted By: RonTuner
Picture a ruler with all of those equally spaced markings...

Now picture that same ruler printed on a stretchy piece of rubber. Pull on the ends (change the octave width) and all of the markings are still equally spaced...

Ron Koval


That is the point and you have just illustrated what I am saying. You are attempting to change what an octave is and inserting semitones between an interval which is not the original octave. It still forms a geometric relationship, but it is no longer based on the starting defined Hz. So, all you have done is to raise the pitch of the stretchy rubber. If the fundimental pitch of your hypothetical octave was C, you might now have an octave with the fundimental of C#. (or D, or D# ...) Even though, visually, it appears to be stretching an octave, it is merely raising the pitch and the semitones in between.


Wait, wait... Assume the ruler has a mark in the middle (A4). That doesn't move as you pull on both ends. Everything else moves, but there is still the same number of divisions between the octaves. A4 is set in stone at 440 - the other A's are stretched to make the best match with that A4...

Ron Koval
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#1908760 - 06/05/12 11:16 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Roger Ransom Offline
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Registered: 01/19/05
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I think this whole discussion started with a question about whether a tuner should discuss or tell a customer if they are tuning the piano in some temperament other than ET.

While it's certainly interesting and some is over my head, I don't don't know any of the customers that I work with that even know what a 'temperament' is.

If I started asking them what temperament they would like or would it be OK if I tuned it in EBVT3, their eyes would glaze over and they would probably say something like "Just tune the damn thing, it sounds awful" smile.

If any were acutely aware of temperaments, they may very well bring it up themselves or I might introduce the topic.

In spite of all the arguing, it is certainly interesting stuff and emphasizes that the natural world is not as neat and orderly as we would like.

Incidentally, the High School I worked in, taught that Wikipedia, although remarkable, is not a reliable reference source and should not be used for research.

I'll go back in the background now



Edited by Roger Ransom (06/05/12 11:17 AM)
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#1908761 - 06/05/12 11:16 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Emmery]
Cinnamonbear Offline
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Originally Posted By: Emmery
Unfortunately Marty, anything other than ET will proportionally create inequalities of increased consonance and dissonance if a musician freely works in all keys. Folks who favour UT's have either developed an audio filtering of some sort to eliminate that dissonance, or have restricted themselves from playing in certain keys. Folks who adhere to ET, can pick up any piece of music and play it without resorting to transposing or mentally blocking out highly disproportionate dissonance. The concept of fully appreciating any art intrinsically involves increasing ones perception, not filterring it or pretending to not notice things that are present.


Emmery, your conclusions here show that you have no idea what you are talking about in regards to the favoring of tunings other than ET. It is not a "filtering out" of sound, it is an "embracing of life" in the sound. The increased consonances and dissonances can allow musicians to work even more freely and deeply in any key.
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#1908789 - 06/05/12 12:03 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
woodog Offline
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Registered: 03/21/12
Posts: 423
Loc: Bowling Green, KY
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty


Have you ever listened, really listened, to a fine orchestra or chorus? ET it ain't!


My choral instructor at the University of South Carolina was Arpad Darazs, who was a student of Zoltan Kodaly. He took our choir of 40 voices in 1980 to Debrecen, Hungary where we competed in the mixed choir division of the Bela Bartok choral competition. A choir that I heard there, the Estonian Chamber Ensemble (12 voices!), under the direction of Arvo Parte, had the most beautiful sound. Dr. Darazs commented to our group that their singing was some of the finest 'mean tone' singing he had ever heard, and for us to take note as that was the sound he always tried to cultivate with us. (I think 'mean tone' was the term he used), but at any rate he tried to make us aware of the sonic differences.

Dr. Darazs would use a piano to help us learn parts if needed, but mostly he taught us the parts by solfege (hand signals) and when the lines were learned, the piano was rarely referenced after that point.

Equal Temperament is a compromise for the nature of the beast. Unequal Temperaments are also a compromise. As Duke Ellington said 'If it sounds good, it IS good'.

Play what you like, like what you play.
update, I just found this on youtube by typing in Arpad Darazs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2V-f03aF0wc

Arpad Darazs was an amazing man.
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#1908794 - 06/05/12 12:14 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: RonTuner]
Minnesota Marty Offline

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Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
Originally Posted By: RonTuner
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Originally Posted By: RonTuner
Picture a ruler with all of those equally spaced markings...

Now picture that same ruler printed on a stretchy piece of rubber. Pull on the ends (change the octave width) and all of the markings are still equally spaced...

Ron Koval


That is the point and you have just illustrated what I am saying. You are attempting to change what an octave is and inserting semitones between an interval which is not the original octave. It still forms a geometric relationship, but it is no longer based on the starting defined Hz. So, all you have done is to raise the pitch of the stretchy rubber. If the fundimental pitch of your hypothetical octave was C, you might now have an octave with the fundimental of C#. (or D, or D# ...) Even though, visually, it appears to be stretching an octave, it is merely raising the pitch and the semitones in between.


Wait, wait... Assume the ruler has a mark in the middle (A4). That doesn't move as you pull on both ends. Everything else moves, but there is still the same number of divisions between the octaves. A4 is set in stone at 440 - the other A's are stretched to make the best match with that A4...

Ron Koval


Ron, I see what you are referring to. You are looking at the stretchy ruler and I am listening to it. The A marked on the ruler will no longer be A440. It will be higher in pitch. So far so good. If you actually stretch the ruler to twice its original length, it will "sound" one octave higher. It will still have the same divisions, chromatic semitones, but visually the spacing is increasing while the heard intervals are shrinking.

It is an interesting enigma.

Has anyone ever studied the inharmonicity of a rubber ruler?

help grin
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#1908803 - 06/05/12 12:39 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Cinnamonbear]
Emmery Offline
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Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2481
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Originally Posted By: Cinnamonbear
Originally Posted By: Emmery
Unfortunately Marty, anything other than ET will proportionally create inequalities of increased consonance and dissonance if a musician freely works in all keys. Folks who favour UT's have either developed an audio filtering of some sort to eliminate that dissonance, or have restricted themselves from playing in certain keys. Folks who adhere to ET, can pick up any piece of music and play it without resorting to transposing or mentally blocking out highly disproportionate dissonance. The concept of fully appreciating any art intrinsically involves increasing ones perception, not filterring it or pretending to not notice things that are present.


Emmery, your conclusions here show that you have no idea what you are talking about in regards to the favoring of tunings other than ET. It is not a "filtering out" of sound, it is an "embracing of life" in the sound. The increased consonances and dissonances can allow musicians to work even more freely and deeply in any key.


"embracing of life"...give me a break. Are there any more completely abstract takes on it you would like to add such as "religeous or philosophical experience", "transcendental journeys" ect...

If you notice a small peice of fly poop in the center of a totally white painting, I get the impression you would find a way to comment on its importance of representing the miniscule human condition in relation to the vast expanse of the universe. Pardon me for mentioning that you would have to filter out the reality of it simply being fly poop, to do so.
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#1908809 - 06/05/12 12:59 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Emmery]
Cinnamonbear Offline
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Posts: 3981
Loc: Rockford, IL
Originally Posted By: Emmery
[...] If you notice a small peice of fly poop in the center of a totally white painting, I get the impression you would find a way to comment on its importance of representing the miniscule human condition in relation to the vast expanse of the universe. Pardon me for mentioning that you would have to filter out the reality of it simply being fly poop, to do so.


I might also say, sardonically, "What a piece of work."

"What a piece of work," said sardonically, applies to many things.

We obviously see things differently, Emmery. Nice job stirring up the pot, though.
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#1908811 - 06/05/12 01:04 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
RonTuner Offline
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Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1674
Loc: Chicagoland
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Originally Posted By: RonTuner
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Originally Posted By: RonTuner
Picture a ruler with all of those equally spaced markings...

Now picture that same ruler printed on a stretchy piece of rubber. Pull on the ends (change the octave width) and all of the markings are still equally spaced...

Ron Koval


That is the point and you have just illustrated what I am saying. You are attempting to change what an octave is and inserting semitones between an interval which is not the original octave. It still forms a geometric relationship, but it is no longer based on the starting defined Hz. So, all you have done is to raise the pitch of the stretchy rubber. If the fundimental pitch of your hypothetical octave was C, you might now have an octave with the fundimental of C#. (or D, or D# ...) Even though, visually, it appears to be stretching an octave, it is merely raising the pitch and the semitones in between.


Wait, wait... Assume the ruler has a mark in the middle (A4). That doesn't move as you pull on both ends. Everything else moves, but there is still the same number of divisions between the octaves. A4 is set in stone at 440 - the other A's are stretched to make the best match with that A4...

Ron Koval


Ron, I see what you are referring to. You are looking at the stretchy ruler and I am listening to it. The A marked on the ruler will no longer be A440. It will be higher in pitch. So far so good. If you actually stretch the ruler to twice its original length, it will "sound" one octave higher. It will still have the same divisions, chromatic semitones, but visually the spacing is increasing while the heard intervals are shrinking.

It is an interesting enigma.

Has anyone ever studied the inharmonicity of a rubber ruler?

help grin


Hmmm... I'm still not getting the point across. The ruler stretches a minute amount in representing the piano stretch, so to make the A5 and A3 match the A4, (which IS 440; go ahead and nail it to the table to make sure the mark doesn't move) we would see the stretch, (via an electronic measure) but the ruler "sounds" normal - that is, listening to the A3-A4-A5, all of the octave matches sound "pure". The "good" tuners can make this happen from A0 to A7 on decent pianos - you can't hear any stretch, but if you measure, the ruler does show that it has been pulled away from the simple doubling of Hz.

As others have written, this is a different topic than temperament, though they are certainly intertwined in practice.

Ron Koval
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@ronkoval

my piano videos:
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#1908812 - 06/05/12 01:04 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Roger Ransom]
Emmery Offline
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Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2481
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Originally Posted By: Roger Ransom
I think this whole discussion started with a question about whether a tuner should discuss or tell a customer if they are tuning the piano in some temperament other than ET.

While it's certainly interesting and some is over my head, I don't don't know any of the customers that I work with that even know what a 'temperament' is.

If I started asking them what temperament they would like or would it be OK if I tuned it in EBVT3, their eyes would glaze over and they would probably say something like "Just tune the damn thing, it sounds awful" smile.

If any were acutely aware of temperaments, they may very well bring it up themselves or I might introduce the topic.

In spite of all the arguing, it is certainly interesting stuff and emphasizes that the natural world is not as neat and orderly as we would like.

Incidentally, the High School I worked in, taught that Wikipedia, although remarkable, is not a reliable reference source and should not be used for research.

I'll go back in the background now



Roger, I agree with you completely about customer naivity in regards to temperament. My experiences are much the same.

If a temperament gets substituted for ET and a customer does not notice, one, or possibly two things occured. The temperament is not much different from ET for it to be noticed musically, or the person is not entirely aware of what to listen for.

Try and spring an UT on a recording studio or a particularily fussy concert pianist who does not want it, and see where that gets you. Have we relegated other customers into a lower status that does not deserve the same consideration, openess, or honesty in what we are giving them?
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#1908824 - 06/05/12 01:37 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Emmery]
Roger Ransom Offline
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Registered: 01/19/05
Posts: 1282
Loc: SouthWest Michigan
Originally Posted By: Emmery

"embracing of life"...give me a break. Are there any more completely abstract takes on it you would like to add such as "religeous or philosophical experience", "transcendental journeys" ect...

If you notice a small peice of fly poop in the center of a totally white painting, I get the impression you would find a way to comment on its importance of representing the miniscule human condition in relation to the vast expanse of the universe. Pardon me for mentioning that you would have to filter out the reality of it simply being fly poop, to do so.

+1
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#1908828 - 06/05/12 01:42 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Loren D]
ClsscLib Offline

Platinum Supporter until Jan 02 2013


Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 1819
Loc: Northern VA, U.S.
Originally Posted By: Loren D
In a college, someone doesn't just walk in off the street and starting teaching a class. Colleges use text books where information is sourced and referenced. Does scientific understanding and knowledge change? Yes, of course. But it's a result of greater understanding, not because someone who doesn't know what he's talking about decided to present information as fact.


What an idealistic view of what is taught at a college!

You'd be amazed what gets into college and university syllabi that has little or nothing to do with "greater understanding" -- quite the opposite in many cases. As for people who don't know what they're talking about presenting misinformation or personal opinion as fact, you get a fair bit of that too.

At least in Wikipedia, someone with contrary facts has a chance to insert them in the discussion. Try that in some college classes, and you can kiss your academic career goodbye.
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"People may say I can't sing, but no one can ever say I didn't sing."

-- Florence Foster Jenkins

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#1908833 - 06/05/12 01:51 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Emmery]
Roger Ransom Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/05
Posts: 1282
Loc: SouthWest Michigan
Originally Posted By: Emmery


Try and spring an UT on a recording studio or a particularily fussy concert pianist who does not want it, and see where that gets you. Have we relegated other customers into a lower status that does not deserve the same consideration, openess, or honesty in what we are giving them?


I agree with this completely. I tune pianos mostly for people who have old worn out pianos that can barely be tuned anyway. Temperament means nothing to them and I don't mean to insult them at all.

If/and/or when I run into more knowledgeable customers I would certainly discuss the options with them and would not make assumptions. That's the way I was taught to work by my Dad and it has served me well all my working years in other jobs as well. Open communication helps eliminate misunderstandings and unwanted surprises.
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#1908843 - 06/05/12 02:04 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: RonTuner]
alfredo capurso Offline
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Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1085
Loc: Sicily - Italy
Originally Posted By: RonTuner
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso
Originally Posted By: RonTuner
Alfredo, perhaps you are unfamiliar with "the blues"???

Ron Koval


Ron, can you expand on that? What is it that you mean to say?


The Blues is an American musical style that comes from pain and suffering... It is common to use notes not available on the keyboard - forcing pianist to play two chromatic notes next to each other to approximate the effect.. I was responding to your statement about tonal temperaments being "out of tune", which (outside of unisons and octaves) is a cultural and learned phenomenon. While many tuners would like to think that equal temperament is universal, it is actually a very small subset in the music world; it only really exists on keyboard instruments, as well as some fretted instruments - and then only if the tuning follows very strict parameters that many ET technicians have admitted not really following...

The idea of the Blues brings up a concept that often gets lost in these discussions. The idea of "sounding better" or "sounding worse" shouldn't really be the focus. I like to think of it as offering a range, or expanding the palette available to the composer.

One of the early demonstrations I went to (before I was interested in anything other than ET) included an old piece of music that was written after the death of the composer's wife. Played in ET, it was sad - kindof "I hit my toe on the dresser and it hurts pretty bad". When it was played in the other temperament (don't know what) The pain and anguish made possible by the tuning made me squirm in my seat. I wish I knew the composer and piece now!

Ron Koval


..."The Blues is an American musical style that comes from pain and suffering... It is common to use notes not available on the keyboard - forcing pianist to play two chromatic notes next to each other to approximate the effect."...

Ron, were we talking about "notes not available on the keyboard"? Perhaps if I tell you that I've been playing guitar since I was eleven… Blue notes (that are not available on the keyboard) have nothing to do with "good intonation" and the sense of harmoniousness that you may get from "in tune" chords. If this was not true, blues players would not bother to "tune" their voice or their guitar or what so ever. As you say, Blues is a music stile, and it is not the only music stile (in the world) that uses notes not available on a semi-tonal keyboard.

..."I was responding to your statement about tonal temperaments being "out of tune", which (outside of unisons and octaves) is a cultural and learned phenomenon."...

I have to correct your citation, I would never say that "tonal temperaments" are "out of tune", as I consider your idea that "WT's are tonal" and "ET is atonal" already wrong. Historically, the word "Tonal" was born precisely within the compositional context (you could check) and it is abusive suggesting the above distinction. The history of temperaments (and simple maths) would tell you that WT's were still trying to manage the "wolf"… but really, I've acknowledged that history, simple maths, logics, common sense and - above all - "good intonation" means little for many of you so… what should we talk about? Blues? Do you play Blues? Serious… tell me what is your favorite blues, I shall record it with my (in tune) guitar and offer it to you.

..."While many tuners would like to think that equal temperament is universal, it is actually a very small subset in the music world;"...

Live that aside, for what I can see here the problem is much wider, it looks like a mix of ignorance, manipulative intents, business interests and the kind of simplicity that often results from superficiality.

..."it only really exists on keyboard instruments, as well as some fretted instruments - and then only if the tuning follows very strict parameters that many ET technicians have admitted not really following..."...

But then, how can you say whether ET exist or not? And which are those "very strict parameters"? And who do you share them with? VT's users? So many questions, arising every second sentence… and no way to hold one single concept firm and steady.

..."The idea of the Blues brings up a concept that often gets lost in these discussions. The idea of "sounding better" or "sounding worse" shouldn't really be the focus."...

In my case, I focused on "sounding perfect", in tune and sound intonation, which in any case are not meant to be exclusive.

..."I like to think of it as offering a range, or expanding the palette available to the composer."...

So, if a customer complains you say… ehi, I'm expanding your palette!

..."One of the early demonstrations I went to (before I was interested in anything other than ET) included an old piece of music that was written after the death of the composer's wife. Played in ET, it was sad - kindof "I hit my toe on the dresser and it hurts pretty bad". When it was played in the other temperament (don't know what) The pain and anguish made possible by the tuning made me squirm in my seat. I wish I knew the composer and piece now!"...

The only one time a bass player made me notice that F1 was out of tune I could only agree and wanted to vanish in shame.

Regards, a.c.
.
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alfredo

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#1908859 - 06/05/12 02:37 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Ed Foote]
Emmery Offline
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Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2481
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Originally Posted By: Ed Foote
Originally Posted By: Emmery
Unfortunately Marty, anything other than ET will proportionally create inequalities of increased consonance and dissonance if a musician freely works in all keys. Folks who favour UT's have either developed an audio filtering of some sort to eliminate that dissonance, or have restricted themselves from playing in certain keys. Folks who adhere to ET, can pick up any piece of music and play it without resorting to transposing or mentally blocking out highly disproportionate dissonance. The concept of fully appreciating any art intrinsically involves increasing ones perception, not filterring it or pretending to not notice things that are present.




Greetings,
You are dead wrong. However in the spirit of universal typecasting....

Folks who favor UT's are folks that can appreciate the increased complexity of music that uses more than one universal size third, and who have increased their musical horizons to at least consider the more plausible intonation of the past. They find beauty in the contrast of dissonance and consonance.

Folks that consider only ET to be in tune are those that have restricted themselves to one tonality and are not capable of finding musical value in anything more highly tempered than ET. Their optimum musical value for a third is 14 cents, which is wildly out of tune. Anything more tempered than that is objectionable, leading to the logic that the ET purist prefers every third to be tuned at the absolute limit of dissonance, just so they are all the same!

In the total effect, ET creates far more dissonance than Wt's in the music that has been written, unless the pianist plays the same amount in all 12 keys,
( which I have never seen happen).

Regards,


Ed, I understand what you are saying, but you must realise that in the end, ET vs UT is simply a comparison of thresholds and values for two systems that spread dissonance in different ways.

Any arguement purporting that we have a common sense of "taste" amongst each other cannot be used in favour of UT...the grand majority of people have embraced ET with its 14 cents....not the other way around. This is the reality.

You have a very narrow view of why ET proponents prefer it over UT and it is mired in your bias towards non-ET. The main reason I prefer ET is that if I pick up my Beatles Complete music book for example, with over 120 pieces in it, I want to be able to open to any page and play that song and have it sound decent. I want to have it sound decent without the need to alter my pianos tuning for it. I don't want to transpose everything to the key of C and have that particularly annoying "beginners" sound which is associated with the key of C, regardless of how pure its tempered. Jazz will often move in chromatic shifts, that favours equally dissonant thirds over haphazard pure ones mixed with others that are more dissonant than ET.

Versatility, has been, and always will be ET's ace in the hand.
_________________________
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#1908865 - 06/05/12 02:46 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: ClsscLib]
Loren D Offline
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Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: ClsscLib
Originally Posted By: Loren D
In a college, someone doesn't just walk in off the street and starting teaching a class. Colleges use text books where information is sourced and referenced. Does scientific understanding and knowledge change? Yes, of course. But it's a result of greater understanding, not because someone who doesn't know what he's talking about decided to present information as fact.


What an idealistic view of what is taught at a college!

You'd be amazed what gets into college and university syllabi that has little or nothing to do with "greater understanding" -- quite the opposite in many cases. As for people who don't know what they're talking about presenting misinformation or personal opinion as fact, you get a fair bit of that too.

At least in Wikipedia, someone with contrary facts has a chance to insert them in the discussion. Try that in some college classes, and you can kiss your academic career goodbye.


Can we at least agree that someone who is teaching chemistry at the college level has a degree in chemistry?

And can we also agree that someone who knows absolutely nothing about chemistry can edit a chemistry article on Wikipedia?

This has nothing to do with idealism at all. Go through and look at Wikipedia history on some articles and see how much vandalism, cleaning up, deletions, etc. you come up with. If you're comfortable relying on that, have at it, man. smile
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#1908873 - 06/05/12 03:00 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: alfredo capurso]
RonTuner Offline
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Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1674
Loc: Chicagoland
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso

..."Music is all about contrasts -"...

Ron, perhaps music is all about... many things, perhaps even contrasts but, has nobody explained you that contrast is perceived through different chords and melodies? Nothing to do with poor intonation and tunings? Would you ever sing out of tune, so that you can finally obtain contrast?



You made me go back and look at it again. Here is your quote about poor intonations and tunings and singing "out of tune" for contrast that led to my citing the Blues and playing/singing notes not available to keyboard players...

Ron Koval
_________________________
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#1908884 - 06/05/12 03:25 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Loren D]
ClsscLib Offline

Platinum Supporter until Jan 02 2013


Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 1819
Loc: Northern VA, U.S.
Originally Posted By: Loren D
Originally Posted By: ClsscLib
Originally Posted By: Loren D
In a college, someone doesn't just walk in off the street and starting teaching a class. Colleges use text books where information is sourced and referenced. Does scientific understanding and knowledge change? Yes, of course. But it's a result of greater understanding, not because someone who doesn't know what he's talking about decided to present information as fact.


What an idealistic view of what is taught at a college!

You'd be amazed what gets into college and university syllabi that has little or nothing to do with "greater understanding" -- quite the opposite in many cases. As for people who don't know what they're talking about presenting misinformation or personal opinion as fact, you get a fair bit of that too.

At least in Wikipedia, someone with contrary facts has a chance to insert them in the discussion. Try that in some college classes, and you can kiss your academic career goodbye.


Can we at least agree that someone who is teaching chemistry at the college level has a degree in chemistry?

And can we also agree that someone who knows absolutely nothing about chemistry can edit a chemistry article on Wikipedia?

This has nothing to do with idealism at all. Go through and look at Wikipedia history on some articles and see how much vandalism, cleaning up, deletions, etc. you come up with. If you're comfortable relying on that, have at it, man. smile


Thanks, but I won't completely rely on anyone else's work in researching a topic important to me.

Subject to that qualification, I find Wikipedia to be a very useful resource.

.
_________________________


"People may say I can't sing, but no one can ever say I didn't sing."

-- Florence Foster Jenkins

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#1908888 - 06/05/12 03:36 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: ClsscLib]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: ClsscLib
Originally Posted By: Loren D
Originally Posted By: ClsscLib
Originally Posted By: Loren D
In a college, someone doesn't just walk in off the street and starting teaching a class. Colleges use text books where information is sourced and referenced. Does scientific understanding and knowledge change? Yes, of course. But it's a result of greater understanding, not because someone who doesn't know what he's talking about decided to present information as fact.


What an idealistic view of what is taught at a college!

You'd be amazed what gets into college and university syllabi that has little or nothing to do with "greater understanding" -- quite the opposite in many cases. As for people who don't know what they're talking about presenting misinformation or personal opinion as fact, you get a fair bit of that too.

At least in Wikipedia, someone with contrary facts has a chance to insert them in the discussion. Try that in some college classes, and you can kiss your academic career goodbye.


Can we at least agree that someone who is teaching chemistry at the college level has a degree in chemistry?

And can we also agree that someone who knows absolutely nothing about chemistry can edit a chemistry article on Wikipedia?

This has nothing to do with idealism at all. Go through and look at Wikipedia history on some articles and see how much vandalism, cleaning up, deletions, etc. you come up with. If you're comfortable relying on that, have at it, man. smile


Thanks, but I won't completely rely on anyone else's work in researching a topic important to me.

Subject to that qualification, I find Wikipedia to be a very useful resource.

.


Sooner or later you need to seek information, even if you're doing your own research. I would hope the information you end up relying on is at least sourced, referenced, and reliable.
_________________________
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#1908895 - 06/05/12 03:45 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Emmery]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
Originally Posted By: Emmery
I don't want to transpose everything to the key of C and have that particularly annoying "beginners" sound which is associated with the key of C


If you are transposing to C and it has a "beginners" sound, it means that you are playing on a piano tuned with UT. Otherwise there would be no difference in "sound."

So, if you are playing something by Rachmaninov in D-minor and you transpose it to C-minor, it will have a beginner's sound? So much for the deep sonorities of the 3rd Concerto.

No matter what temperament the piano has, the orchestra would not be playing in ET.

(You never did answer my previous question, BTW)
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Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#1908913 - 06/05/12 04:18 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Loren D]
ClsscLib Offline

Platinum Supporter until Jan 02 2013


Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 1819
Loc: Northern VA, U.S.
Originally Posted By: Loren D
Originally Posted By: ClsscLib
Originally Posted By: Loren D
Originally Posted By: ClsscLib
Originally Posted By: Loren D
In a college, someone doesn't just walk in off the street and starting teaching a class. Colleges use text books where information is sourced and referenced. Does scientific understanding and knowledge change? Yes, of course. But it's a result of greater understanding, not because someone who doesn't know what he's talking about decided to present information as fact.


What an idealistic view of what is taught at a college!

You'd be amazed what gets into college and university syllabi that has little or nothing to do with "greater understanding" -- quite the opposite in many cases. As for people who don't know what they're talking about presenting misinformation or personal opinion as fact, you get a fair bit of that too.

At least in Wikipedia, someone with contrary facts has a chance to insert them in the discussion. Try that in some college classes, and you can kiss your academic career goodbye.


Can we at least agree that someone who is teaching chemistry at the college level has a degree in chemistry?

And can we also agree that someone who knows absolutely nothing about chemistry can edit a chemistry article on Wikipedia?

This has nothing to do with idealism at all. Go through and look at Wikipedia history on some articles and see how much vandalism, cleaning up, deletions, etc. you come up with. If you're comfortable relying on that, have at it, man. smile


Thanks, but I won't completely rely on anyone else's work in researching a topic important to me.

Subject to that qualification, I find Wikipedia to be a very useful resource.

.


Sooner or later you need to seek information, even if you're doing your own research. I would hope the information you end up relying on is at least sourced, referenced, and reliable.


I need information all the time. It's my business. I'm pretty good at it, but thanks for your advice.
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"People may say I can't sing, but no one can ever say I didn't sing."

-- Florence Foster Jenkins

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#1908918 - 06/05/12 04:28 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2481
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Originally Posted By: Emmery
I don't want to transpose everything to the key of C and have that particularly annoying "beginners" sound which is associated with the key of C


If you are transposing to C and it has a "beginners" sound, it means that you are playing on a piano tuned with UT. Otherwise there would be no difference in "sound."

So, if you are playing something by Rachmaninov in D-minor and you transpose it to C-minor, it will have a beginner's sound? So much for the deep sonorities of the 3rd Concerto.

No matter what temperament the piano has, the orchestra would not be playing in ET.

(You never did answer my previous question, BTW)


Sorry Marty, my aversion to C has nothing to do with temperament. I have a keen sense of what is unfortunately often called "perfect pitch". The key of C and its associated scaling has a specific color to me as opposed to varying shades of frequency. When I hear C, I know its C. C minor does not bother me so much. I am not inspired to seek a temperament that favours this key to others. It limits me right off the bat.

I'm not sure what question you referred to. If it was about listening to orchestras ect...yes I understand your point. However we are in a piano forum talking about pianos which are universally tuned in ET, or occasionally tuned to something else.


Edited by Emmery (06/05/12 04:37 PM)
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#1908931 - 06/05/12 05:03 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Emmery]
RonTuner Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1674
Loc: Chicagoland
Originally Posted By: Emmery
However we are in a piano forum talking about pianos which are universally tuned in ET, or occasionally tuned to something else.


I'd revise that to say that we are talking about pianos that are rarely played ET, though are sometimes purposefully and carefully tuned to ET, while more musicians and owners are finding that a "better" option is having them tuned to something other than ET...

Ron Koval
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#1908935 - 06/05/12 05:05 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Cinnamonbear]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2481
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Originally Posted By: Cinnamonbear
Originally Posted By: Emmery
[...] If you notice a small peice of fly poop in the center of a totally white painting, I get the impression you would find a way to comment on its importance of representing the miniscule human condition in relation to the vast expanse of the universe. Pardon me for mentioning that you would have to filter out the reality of it simply being fly poop, to do so.


I might also say, sardonically, "What a piece of work."

"What a piece of work," said sardonically, applies to many things.

We obviously see things differently, Emmery. Nice job stirring up the pot, though.


Well stirring the pot in a civil way is sometimes what is needed to get people thinking or talking. Otherwise a site like this, primarily for piano technicians, will begin to take on the appearance of a bunch of Ferrari mechanics sitting around discussing oil changes.
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#1908952 - 06/05/12 05:39 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Emmery]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
Originally Posted By: Emmery
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Originally Posted By: Emmery
I don't want to transpose everything to the key of C and have that particularly annoying "beginners" sound which is associated with the key of C


If you are transposing to C and it has a "beginners" sound, it means that you are playing on a piano tuned with UT. Otherwise there would be no difference in "sound."

So, if you are playing something by Rachmaninov in D-minor and you transpose it to C-minor, it will have a beginner's sound? So much for the deep sonorities of the 3rd Concerto.

No matter what temperament the piano has, the orchestra would not be playing in ET.

(You never did answer my previous question, BTW)


Sorry Marty, my aversion to C has nothing to do with temperament. I have a keen sense of what is unfortunately often called "perfect pitch". The key of C and its associated scaling has a specific color to me as opposed to varying shades of frequency. When I hear C, I know its C. C minor does not bother me so much. I am not inspired to seek a temperament that favours this key to others. It limits me right off the bat.

I'm not sure what question you referred to. If it was about listening to orchestras ect...yes I understand your point. However we are in a piano forum talking about pianos which are universally tuned in ET, or occasionally tuned to something else.


Ah yes,

Using the temperament of an orchestra or chorus to make a comment about ET in a tuner/tech forum is not appropriate.

In the future, I shall only discuss fly poop on Ferraris.
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Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#1909003 - 06/05/12 07:28 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
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Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
Marty, with this group, you might as well just give it up. They will never admit fault, never address anything that is a valid point, instead, they just pass right on by it and always want the last complaint and just have to be right. Talk about not being open minded...

I like Coke. That means, they like Pepsi. So, now I like Mountain Dew too. ha
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Piano Technicians Guild
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www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#1909018 - 06/05/12 07:58 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Johnkie Offline
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Registered: 06/04/11
Posts: 737
Loc: England
Daddy why am I going around and around in circles ? "Be quiet or I'll nail the other foot to the floor" crazy
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and Member of the Pianoforte Tuners' Association (London)
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#1909027 - 06/05/12 08:17 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
You guys behave yourselves now because......................................



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Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#1909072 - 06/05/12 09:51 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
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Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3296
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Believe me Marty, I have read and appreciate your comments but I refuse to add fuel to the fire.
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Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1909149 - 06/06/12 12:59 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
OperaTenor Offline
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Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2445
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
Hey if anyone needs pot stirring or coal raking, let me know. I'm available...
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#1909155 - 06/06/12 01:21 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Olek Offline
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Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
There is a very reputed reording stuoin Paris, where the harpsichprd is tuned with acoustivally pure 5ths.
melodicoctaves are perfect. the beating in octaves anddoubles, shtrangely,did not bother me. Probably because the higher harmony amd sensation of justness was overpassing the non conform aspect.
The day I noticed that makes me more open to aoccept that our definition of intonation is certainly restrictive.
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#1909182 - 06/06/12 04:20 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Mark R. Offline
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Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 2069
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
ClsscLib, thanks for trying to bring a short moment of sanity into the Wikibashing. (And yes, I know first-hand the consequences of trying to correct misinformation in a college class. One of the reasons I left academia.)

Methinks I should summarily have deleted the word "Wikipedia" from my first post - that would probably have saved us half the noise on this thread. In fact, in terms of actual content, e.g. ET being a geometric progression, the rate of which corresponds to the chosen stretch, I see very little disagreement between my posts, those of Loren and those of Ron. But I used the wicked W-word... so what I wrote must be wrong!

Outta here...
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#1909221 - 06/06/12 07:02 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
alfredo capurso Offline
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Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1085
Loc: Sicily - Italy

Some of you was mentioning Wikipedia, related sources, reliability etc...

This early morning, searching the web, I opened a page titled Historical Temperaments. There, under the FAQ's appearances, I happened to find a sort of WT's manifesto signed by Ed Foote RPT.

Along with the "expert" sounding verbiage narrating the whole scenery, please countercheck and see if you manage to find any scientific source.

http://www.piano-tuners.org/piano-forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1320

Marty and all Gentlemen, perhaps you know the saying "Cui Prodest"?

That page (point 11) may give you an answer:

"Tuners are now able to provide them (HT's). The tuning community has, in the last decade, been able to combine the research of Owen Jorgensen with the modern programmable tuning machine. This combination makes the recreation of a wide range of historical temperaments easily available to the working technician. As a result, pianists are being
given an opportunity to hear the piano music in more than one tuning. Once a pianist plays music on temperaments that were in use when the piece was written, they often find a greater depth and expression in the sound."

We could well order the potential recipients:

Tuners: like ice-cream, ...there are of all kinds;

The tuning community: ...we get many ideas in PW;

Modern programmable tuning machine: like for tuners and ice-cream, ...what you get is not always what you expect;

Pianists: like for tuners, ice-cream and tuning machines, ...can be challenging;

Piano music: like for tuners, ice-cream, tuning machines and pianists, ...might require a dedicated approach;

Greater depth and expression in the sound: like for tuners, ice-cream, tuning machines, pianists and piano music, ...if it is for free, it might all be welcome.

As a tuning community, do we need amateur/non referenced advertising? Could we not organize an "Ice-cream for free" party? cool

Regards, a.c.
.
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#1909222 - 06/06/12 07:08 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Mark R.]
Loren D Offline
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Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: Mark R.
ClsscLib, thanks for trying to bring a short moment of sanity into the Wikibashing. (And yes, I know first-hand the consequences of trying to correct misinformation in a college class. One of the reasons I left academia.)

Methinks I should summarily have deleted the word "Wikipedia" from my first post - that would probably have saved us half the noise on this thread. In fact, in terms of actual content, e.g. ET being a geometric progression, the rate of which corresponds to the chosen stretch, I see very little disagreement between my posts, those of Loren and those of Ron. But I used the wicked W-word... so what I wrote must be wrong!

Outta here...


The reason I called you on it is because you told the other poster that he was misinformed, and suggest he check Wikipedia to learn more about it. I was just pointing out that he could do that and still be misinformed, because it's not a reliable source for information. Sorry if that bothers you! I don't accept anything using W as a source because anyone can edit it.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm off to add my 2 cents about nuclear physics. laugh

*edited for further clarification*


Edited by Loren D (06/06/12 07:39 AM)
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#1909391 - 06/06/12 12:43 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Jerry Groot RPT]
Emmery Offline
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Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2481
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Originally Posted By: Jerry Groot RPT
Marty, with this group, you might as well just give it up. They will never admit fault, never address anything that is a valid point, instead, they just pass right on by it and always want the last complaint and just have to be right. Talk about not being open minded...

I like Coke. That means, they like Pepsi. So, now I like Mountain Dew too. ha


Jerry, what "group"? Over 15 contributers to the thread including yourself.

"Open mindedness" is not my concern nor the concern of 99.9% of the techs out there who tune ET...its an issue for the .1% who are trying to sway the vast majority away from accepted norms. Your upset that we are not making an arguement in your favour?

Jerry, are you open minded about say, child porn being acceptable? Would you accept somebodies arguement that your close minded about it, if they can't sway you in favour of their opposing views on the matter?

Well, I've witnessed the inadequacies EBVT and UT's addressing the issue of moving through all keys without issues.

I've witnessed the inadequacies of trying to tune temperaments with ETD offsets alone.

I've witnessed the inadequacies of the present incomplete aural sequence for setting EBVT.

I've witnessed an irate customer who had EBVT sprung on them without prior consultation.

But in regards to open mindedness, I and several other techs who choose to discuss ET vs non-ET, are more open minded about it (by discussing it) than the 10's of thousands of techs who choose to simply ignore it, and just go on tuning ET.

ET is as much an accepted norm amongst customers as a person expecting their coffee to be hot when ordering from the coffee shop. So we have moved to a period where UT's are being sprinkled into the mix just like the recent trend for ice coffee. I have no issues with the new kid on the block (EBVT) being promoted or marketed to customers, as long as the customers are informed or given a choice before hand.
To do any different is both dishonest, and a gamble.

Even products that are altered or improved have some kind of information on their labels indicating "new" or "improved" to let the brand loyal customers know they are plopping down money for something that is different from what they have come to expect in the past.

Every person I have asked, including recent customers of mine, have all commented that if they are paying for a service, they expect to know ahead of time, if that service is different from what they would expect or had in the past, of if that service involves a "gamble".
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#1909471 - 06/06/12 02:43 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Emmery]
Minnesota Marty Offline

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Registered: 05/15/12
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Loc: Rochester MN
Originally Posted By: Emmery
Originally Posted By: Jerry Groot RPT
Marty, with this group, you might as well just give it up.


"Open mindedness" is not my concern

are you open minded about say, child porn being acceptable?


Your Emmeryness,

This might be the first thing that you and I have agreed upon. It is quite obvious that you are not concerned with openmindedness.

Lets see here, you are now equating UT to child porn? Or are you saying that closed mindedness cannot be pornographic? Or do you consider any temperament other than your form of ET to be abusive?

I authored this thread to be a Non-Rant. I do not thank you for bringing your pet rant here. Being open minded, I will tolerate it, however. Others can make their own assessment.


Jerry - There have been other participants who have contributed to the discussion. Others have merely remained closed minded and taken an 'I'm right, you're wrong' attitude.
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It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#1909473 - 06/06/12 02:47 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Emmery]
Ed Foote Offline
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Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 1228
Loc: Tennessee
[quote=Emmery
>> "Open mindedness" is not my concern nor the concern of 99.9% of the techs out there who tune ET...its an issue for the .1% who are trying to sway the vast majority away from accepted norms. Your upset that we are not making an arguement in your favour? <<

.1% ? Where do you get that number from? Out of 1,000 techs only ONE is going to be using a variety of temperaments? That is totally out of the reality that I live in. And I am not trying to sway anyone from accepted norms, (unless those other 99.9% are trying desperately to hide behind the status quo).
>>Well, I've witnessed the inadequacies EBVT and UT's addressing the issue of moving through all keys without issues. <<

Have you witnessed the destruction of harmony in Mozart played on ET?

>> I've witnessed the inadequacies of trying to tune temperaments with ETD offsets alone.

I have seen far more inadequacies in aural tuning of anything than I have seen in comparisons of offset tunings vs aural well temperaments.

>>ET is as much an accepted norm amongst customers as a person expecting their coffee to be hot when ordering from the coffee shop.

Not around here. And that is a pretty thin analogy, since most customers know what coffee is, and few piano owners know what a temperament is. I am constantly gaining new customers because I tune a wide variety of temperaments. These pianists are not locked in to the status quo, they are making decisions with their ears and their wallets. And they are not dilettantes with a spinet in the living room, ( who, I suppose, get the full explanation of why ET is being put on their spinet, which has never had a compostion in F# played on it in its life.)

ET is a beautiful construction. Like a crescent wrench, it fits everything equally, but does nothing with the full emotional expression that music is capable of. It is good for those that listen intellectually, a disaster for others with a broader range of musical taste.
regards,


Edited by Ed Foote (06/06/12 02:48 PM)

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#1909477 - 06/06/12 02:50 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
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Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
Quote:
"Open mindedness" is not my concern nor the concern of 99.9% of the techs out there who tune ET...its an issue for the .1% who are trying to sway the vast majority away from accepted norms. Your upset that we are not making an arguement in your favour?


Obviously, open mindedness has never been a concern of yours.

Being right 100 % of the time along with trying to prove someone else wrong IS a very strong concern of yours.

You are wrong about the 99.9 %. Most people are very open minded. You're grasping at straws now.

I said, in another part of this thread that some people like Steinway. Some like Bosendorfer, some like Yamaha. It is a matter of preference. Accepting that someone else might like something different, or prefer something different is being open minded. I am that. If you only want to tune in ET. Who cares? Do it. If someone else wants to tune using 5 different methods, I say, GREAT!

Quote:
Jerry, are you open minded about say, child porn being acceptable? Would you accept somebodies arguement that your close minded about it, if they can't sway you in favour of their opposing views on the matter?


Don't be an ass Emmery. That statement is utterly ridiculous and totally unacceptable. You are showing your true colors now. For that you get the flying monkeys!!! wow

I know Marty, I was only referring to a couple in here, you know who... smile


Edited by Jerry Groot RPT (06/06/12 03:06 PM)
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#1909482 - 06/06/12 02:59 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Emmery]
Ed Foote Offline
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Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 1228
Loc: Tennessee
Emmery writes;

>>Any arguement purporting that we have a common sense of "taste" amongst each other cannot be used in favour of UT...the grand majority of people have embraced ET with its 14 cents....not the other way around. This is the reality. <<

There is no common taste. What is common is human's reaction to stimuli, such as consonance and dissonance. We cannot control the emotional alteration when we hear these things, and that really bothers some people. The grand majority of people have not embraced anything, they have simply never known there was a choice, and this ignorance is often promulgated by those tuners that don't want complicating factors in their livelihoods.


>>You have a very narrow view of why ET proponents prefer it over UT and it is mired in your bias towards non-ET.

I have a view of temperament. It includes a lot of them. ET is a specialized version, and has its place, but its "place" is shrinking. I sell a lot of ET, it is a good money-maker, and it is totally risk free, as long as the customer doesn't know of the alternatives.

>>The main reason I prefer ET is that if I pick up my Beatles Complete music book for example, with over 120 pieces in it, I want to be able to open to any page and play that song and have it sound decent. <<

ET is good for Beatle music.However, there are only 11.5 hours of that music in existence. What about the rest of Western music? Jazz pros around here have caught on to WT's. There are some changes they are enjoying because of it. Same goes with a number of song-writers. These people are listening to what they are playing, and for some reason, 200 year old tunings are attractive.

>>Versatility, has been, and always will be ET's ace in the hand.

And its greatest drawback. If 14 cents is the maximum acceptable amount of tempering, then I have to infer that the ET enthusiast wants everything as far out of tune as possible,(and that third IS out of tune). The sum total of dissonance would be the same in both temperaments if all 12 keys were used equally as much. However, that is not how the world of music is organized...
Regards,


Edited by Ed Foote (06/06/12 03:00 PM)

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#1909569 - 06/06/12 05:18 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
alfredo capurso Offline
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Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1085
Loc: Sicily - Italy

Marty, this is about "ET", its expanding outside the mid-range, ETD's, language barrier and what Bill Bremmer RPT understood of that, almost three years ago. Do not worry about the lenth and PTGees, that seems to go with style:

#1220568 - 06/21/09 02:35 PM Re: CIRCULAR HARMONIC SYSTEM - CHAS [Re: BDB]

Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
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Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 2558
Loc: Madison, WI USA

Rafael, the definition of ET is a temperament in which all intervals are tempered equally. It is as simple as that. I learned that from Kent Swafford. I also learned from Kent that it doesn't matter how wide or narrow the octave is. Since he had explained it to me, I heard it from other sources as well. With further work in techniques for constructing an ET, I learned that the scaling of the piano does not matter either.

Please, let us not mention "CTE" too much. No one who has that authority is allowed to "advertise" it. Only one member of any master tuning committee is required to have that title. PTG members who become inactive with tuning exams lose that title. It is only meant to be used for the purposes of conducting an official PTG tuning exam and is not meant to represent a level of skill. It has to do more with the administrative skills than it does with tuning skills. It is well known, however that to qualify to train in that area, the person must possess a higher standard of aural tuning skills than is required to become an RPT.

Therefore, there has been some suggestion within PTG that those who do possess these skills, whether they work with exams or not, be recognized for it. It may come about eventually but presently, there is no title which PTG bestows other than RPT.

So, let's be sensitive as well to those who are not PTG members, especially to those who may, in fact, have superior aural tuning skills. Anyone can use an ETD to test aural tunings by using the exam program which comes with them, if they care to learn how to do it. Anyone can set up a "reference" tuning either by themselves or with assistance from a more highly skilled technician, PTG member or not and regardless of whether that person ever worked as an examiner or not.

I can say, however that when an aural ET is being refined to its ultimate perfection such as during the construction of a Master or reference tuning, the people doing that look for the same amount of tempering in all intervals. There can be no "fudging", no favoring of any one kind of interval over another.
This is true regardless of octave type, size or width, however you may like to think about that. PTG does not have any specifications for that, even for the exams.

If anyone used Bernhard Stopper's model for a PTG exam and did the midrange aurally as required with sufficient accuracy, it would pass the exam. Any other octave width, even a slightly narrow width would work just as well. What matters is consistency, maintaining the same concept throughout. That is not to say that favoring one kind of interval over another may produce pleasing results in some circumstances, that is what I do every day. "To be or not to be ET, that is the question".

Regarding whether 5ths and 12ths become wide or not, they do, I am convinced of that. I learned that very long ago from Steve Fairchild who demonstrated it at a PTG convention. Now, I take what Kent said about my post to heart but the figures as I posted them still suggest as much.

Anyone can do what I do routinely in constructing octaves from F5 to the top and they will see that what I say is true. Beginning on F5 and with the ETD set on F5 (Partial 1), play the F3 and A#3. If you first stop the pattern when F3 is played, then play A#3, the pattern will roll slightly sharp. If you adjust F5 on the ETD so that the pattern rolls equally sharp and flat when F3 and A#3 are played alternately, you will find an ideal spot for F5 to be tuned. The double octave will be slightly wide and the 12th, slightly narrow, each by a very small amount, nearly imperceptible to the ear.

That is the basic "mindless octaves" concept. If by ear, the double octave is made to sound beatless, the 12th will beat noticeably. If the 12th is made beatless, the double octave will have a noticeable beat that may be considered unacceptable. However, when there is an exact compromise between both the double octave and the 12th, both intervals sound apparently in tune, the beat is so slight as to not be really noticeable, especially in a musical context.

That is why I dubbed the concept as "mindless" because if either the double octave or the 12th beats, it sounds "wrong" but when there is that exact compromise between the two, it sounds "right". This proved to be true for me even when tuning an unequal temperament.

Now, if you continue this technique upwards, you will inevitable find a point where both the double octave and the 12th will both stop the pattern and to the ear, both will sound perfectly in tune. When you continue upwards, you will find the exact opposite of what you found at F5. When the 12th stops the pattern, the double octave will be wide, when the double octave stops the pattern, the 12th will be narrow, still each by a very small amount.

This means (at least by my reasoning), that the 12th has become wide and therefore the 5th as well. However, at this point, the coincident partials for the 5th may well be out of hearing range and therefore, however wide they may be won't matter because they cannot be heard. In any case, a slightly wide 5th is not unpleasant to the ear, especially that high up where the sustain is so short. The same applies to single octaves: a slight or even slightly rapid beat in a single octave does not offend the ear, particularly in a true musical context.

I have now long taken to the practice of tuning pure double octaves and 5ths from F6 to the top. Sometimes, I don't start that until C7, it all depends on how wide the single octave sounds. If it is just too crazy, I go back to the double octave and 12th compromise until the single octaves can sound reasonable. So, I may start the pure double octave and 5th idea anywhere between F6 and C7 or maybe even a little higher but eventually, I get to 6:1 octaves in the high treble. I tune the low bass basically the same way. I let the piano tell me what it can take.

To me, this is a far better way to tune the extremes of the piano than to depend on a calculated stretch curve. (The totally advanced features of the Verituner notwithstanding). That curve is based upon assumptions instead of what the piano may really offer. Even if I use a calculated tuning for the middle, I change my partial selection and tune by direct interval at either extreme end. It doesn't take that much more time to do it that way but the results are certainly worth the time and effort.

That is one of the several reasons why I chose to use the SAT over the other choices of ETD which are available. For me, direct interval tuning is my preferred concept because I tell the ETD what I want, it does not tell me. I am in complete control of the results to the very highest and lowest notes and that is the way I want it. I do believe that for those who are used to using the other devices and software, a direct interval method of tuning the high treble and low bass are just as accessible as with an SAT.

I have met and had discussions with Bernhard Stopper and have also heard his tuning. It has a remarkably clear character to it. While I still do not fully understand it, I did gather from what he has said that the 12ths also become wide at some point in his tunings as well.

Others have long ago suggested pure triple octaves including Jim Coleman, Sr. and Virgil Smith. If one considers that 12ths and double octaves converge, then reverse at some point, then so would double octaves and 12th and triple octaves. I would suggest, as my own practice has told me that by the time one reaches the top end of the 7th octave, that is the point where double octaves and 12ths and triple octaves are both pure or at least so close to each other that the difference is insignificant.

I give Alfredo the benefit of the doubt that his concept lies somewhere within a structure that may be a composite of what I describe above. There is, after all, an obvious language barrier. Any manipulation of octave width and/or temperament will have some kind of effect. It cannot be said that one idea is right and the other is wrong, only that any two ideas are different and produce differing effects as a result.

We should all try to understand and be able to try and implement these differences depending on the goal of the tuning at hand. Passing the PTG tuning exam is one goal but creating a more pleasing effect for a different kind of circumstance is another.

- . - . - . -

This is about "Open mindedness" and the way Jerry Groot RPT understood tunings, less than three years ago:

#1220599 - 06/21/09 03:33 PM Re: CIRCULAR HARMONIC SYSTEM - CHAS [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]

Jerry Groot RPT Online content
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Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 5959
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
Nicely put Bill.

Gadzar,

I do not recall ever saying that I did not understand the ET. ET is what I've used my entire life until I purchased RCT. Even now, the best tunings that I have saved on RCT are all my own tunings done using ET. I can tune a piano very well with that method thank you very much. smile

I am just NOW learning Bill's method or, trying too. That to me, is a bit more confusing, learning a completely new and different method after 40 years of tuning one way... Perhaps that is to what you are referring.

What does not matter to me at all, is the mathematical theoretical stuff (that I do not bother to read by the way) that is spewed back and forth in here. All that is to me, is one person trying to impress another and it does not impress me one bit. It doesn't mean that one can hear it... All that shows is one can talk it... wink Proving it is an entirely different matter.

- . - . - . -

Regards, a.c.
.
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#1909581 - 06/06/12 05:38 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
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Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
I'll take that as a compliment Alfredo, thank you!

I'm just trying, to say, that there is more than one way to arrive at a satisfactory ending. ET. EBVT or ET go home. One way or the other, whatever blows your hair back and is satisfying to whomever is using and listening to it. smile
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#1909586 - 06/06/12 05:45 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Loren D Offline
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Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
I still say most people who call to have a piano tuned have no idea what a temperament even is.
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#1909608 - 06/06/12 06:22 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Loren D]
alfredo capurso Offline
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Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1085
Loc: Sicily - Italy

Originally Posted By: Loren D
I still say most people who call to have a piano tuned have no idea what a temperament even is.


((((Shhh, Loren, people may want to know about... us.)))-

So, Marty, Loren, Emmery, Gadzar, shall we organize that party?

We only need a place, it could well be your house or any place where we can also play some music (and of course our tunings). While I'd bet Bill, Kent, Jerry and Ed would (no-problem) go for it, one thing is, I would like to make sure that Isaac and Johnkie, Jake and perhaps others have (in some way) a taste for ice-cream (alternatively, I know that Isaac doesn't mind Japanese).

And each one of us could make an ice-cream for all the others, and we could all sing Beatles and Mozart, Mexican and Canadian folk music and see which sounds best?

Regards, a.c.


Edited by alfredo capurso (06/06/12 07:02 PM)
Edit Reason: correct language + adding and re-ordering
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#1909631 - 06/06/12 07:03 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Johnkie Offline
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Registered: 06/04/11
Posts: 737
Loc: England
Alfredo :

The idea of the party sounds great ....if only it were possible frown

Being someone that has never used an ETD I have little understanding of all the numbers being thrown backwards and forwards, and haven't a clue what all the arguments are about. I have always considered the first 12 notes of the scale to be of paramount concern, after which I concentrate on octaves that leave the 4th & 5th smooth and the 3rds & 6ths progressive. My "ice-cream" seems to have satisfied musicians from just about every walk of life and every class of musicianship for over 4 decades.It has enabled me to make a very worthwhile living and rub shoulders with some very eminent people .... but hey ... who's to say that other flavours aren't just as satisfying wink
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#1909643 - 06/06/12 07:26 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Johnkie]
alfredo capurso Offline
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Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1085
Loc: Sicily - Italy

Originally Posted By: Johnkie
Alfredo :

The idea of the party sounds great ....if only it were possible frown

Being someone that has never used an ETD I have little understanding of all the numbers being thrown backwards and forwards, and haven't a clue what all the arguments are about. I have always considered the first 12 notes of the scale to be of paramount concern, after which I concentrate on octaves that leave the 4th & 5th smooth and the 3rds & 6ths progressive. My "ice-cream" seems to have satisfied musicians from just about every walk of life and every class of musicianship for over 4 decades.It has enabled me to make a very worthwhile living and rub shoulders with some very eminent people .... but hey ... who's to say that other flavours aren't just as satisfying wink



Really nice post, Johnkie, thank you. I would enjoy listening to you, tuning.

Watch out though because question marks add up easly... ha

Is your voice's register a bass?
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#1909645 - 06/06/12 07:30 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Johnkie Offline
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Registered: 06/04/11
Posts: 737
Loc: England
It's a great pleasure Alfredo, I think we have much in common with our views . My voice ....... yes it is Bass ....... but sadly more like the fish than the lower voice register. I think you could say "I sing like a nighting pig" rather than "nightingale" smile
_________________________
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#1909656 - 06/06/12 07:54 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Johnkie]
alfredo capurso Offline
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Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1085
Loc: Sicily - Italy

Originally Posted By: Johnkie
It's a great pleasure Alfredo, I think we have much in common with our views . My voice ....... yes it is Bass ....... but sadly more like the fish than the lower voice register. I think you could say "I sing like a nighting pig" rather than "nightingale" smile


Ok, but that is before or after the party? smile

John, I think (edit: I hope) we are going to meet sometime.

Best wishes,

Alfredo


Edited by alfredo capurso (06/06/12 07:57 PM)
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#1909698 - 06/06/12 09:39 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
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Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
You forgot Elvis!!!!!!!!
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We love to play BF2.

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#1909774 - 06/07/12 01:42 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Ed Foote]
Cinnamonbear Offline
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Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3981
Loc: Rockford, IL
Originally Posted By: Ed Foote
[...] The grand majority of people have not embraced anything, they have simply never known there was a choice, and this ignorance is often promulgated by those tuners that don't want complicating factors in their livelihoods. [...]


Oh, Ed! You have put words to my thoughts!
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#1909781 - 06/07/12 02:09 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Olek Offline
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When the castle is in cardboard it is still fun to play within.

I had to learn to tune meantone on organs and harpsichords and I like it in its context. I would not propose anything that tend to lower the stability of the piano, to a pianist.

The problem with a good ET is that the defects and flaws of the instrument can be noticed and are then to be corrected if possible. A lousy tuning is way more forgiving.

The only ET I know which is much forgiving to the instrument is Chas, as it overpass the lack of ringing with its own consoning behavior (while keeping some life in the 5ths and 12ths that could sound dry in other situations.

nice postings Johnkie and Alfredo! we will have to wait a few days so the weather is ok for vanilla ice creams!


Edited by Kamin (06/07/12 02:41 AM)
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#1909785 - 06/07/12 02:20 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Emmery]
Cinnamonbear Offline
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Originally Posted By: Emmery
[...] "Open mindedness" is not my concern nor the concern of 99.9% of the techs out there who tune ET...its an issue for the .1% who are trying to sway the vast majority away from accepted norms. Your upset that we are not making an arguement in your favour?

Jerry, are you open minded about say, child porn being acceptable? Would you accept somebodies arguement that your close minded about it, if they can't sway you in favour of their opposing views on the matter?

Well, I've witnessed the inadequacies EBVT and UT's addressing the issue of moving through all keys without issues.

I've witnessed the inadequacies of trying to tune temperaments with ETD offsets alone.

I've witnessed the inadequacies of the present incomplete aural sequence for setting EBVT.

I've witnessed an irate customer who had EBVT sprung on them without prior consultation.

But in regards to open mindedness, I and several other techs who choose to discuss ET vs non-ET, are more open minded about it (by discussing it) than the 10's of thousands of techs who choose to simply ignore it, and just go on tuning ET.

ET is as much an accepted norm amongst customers as a person expecting their coffee to be hot when ordering from the coffee shop. So we have moved to a period where UT's are being sprinkled into the mix just like the recent trend for ice coffee. I have no issues with the new kid on the block (EBVT) being promoted or marketed to customers, as long as the customers are informed or given a choice before hand.
To do any different is both dishonest, and a gamble.

Even products that are altered or improved have some kind of information on their labels indicating "new" or "improved" to let the brand loyal customers know they are plopping down money for something that is different from what they have come to expect in the past.

Every person I have asked, including recent customers of mine, have all commented that if they are paying for a service, they expect to know ahead of time, if that service is different from what they would expect or had in the past, of if that service involves a "gamble".


Emmery,

You are tying too hard. Plus,

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#1909825 - 06/07/12 05:01 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Olek Offline
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Personally I am very open minded I have had surgery once or twice yet... (or is it open brained ?)


Edited by Kamin (06/07/12 05:02 AM)
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#1909892 - 06/07/12 09:09 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Olek Offline
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An now, a few words from our sponsor :

http://www.ina.fr/art-et-culture/musique...demodee.fr.html
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#1909904 - 06/07/12 09:29 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Ed Foote]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ed Foote





I am constantly gaining new customers because I tune a wide variety of temperaments. These pianists are not locked in to the status quo, they are making decisions with their ears and their wallets. And they are not dilettantes with a spinet in the living room...


Indeed, I gained one new Steinway L customer yesterday and referred a new customer to ED a few days ago as a direct result of Emmery's very effective advertising campaign.
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#1909907 - 06/07/12 09:34 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Ed Foote]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ed Foote
[quote=Emmery
>> "Open mindedness" is not my concern nor the concern of 99.9% of the techs out there who tune ET...its an issue for the .1% who are trying to sway the vast majority away from accepted norms. Your upset that we are not making an arguement in your favour? <<

.1% ? Where do you get that number from? ...



Out of the thin air of his own mind. That is why I don't bother to refute anything he says on here. Suffice it to say that he does not know what he is talking about from the beginning to the end of each and every rant.
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#1909952 - 06/07/12 11:41 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
BDB Online   content
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I think it is far less of a rant than complaining that pianos, with unisons so badly out of tune that one could not possibly determine what sort of temperament the piano is in, were tuned to some cesspit of temperaments called "reverse well."

What Emmery is saying makes sense. If you are given a certain amount of time to tune a piano which was supposed to be tuned before delivery, as often happens to me, there is nothing worse than to find it had been tuned in some way it was not supposed to be tuned. I have had that happen to me, and it was no fun.
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#1909958 - 06/07/12 11:49 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
alfredo capurso Offline
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Bill,

In my view, you have All been able to make your point and I do not see any other valuable argument being added for further clarification.

Before being told the same by a moderator sensitive to intonation, shocked would you mind telling me what's your favorite ice cream flavor? And your individual portion, how much cream should I order, I ought to know that in advance. cool Should we fix a maximum number of customers we can take we us? And parents? You see, lots to do, please let me know.

Regards, a.c.
.
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#1909967 - 06/07/12 12:05 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: alfredo capurso]
DoelKees Offline
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Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso

In my view, you have All been able to make your point and I do not see any other valuable argument being added for further clarification.

Before being told the same by a moderator sensitive to intonation, shocked would you mind telling me what's your favorite ice cream flavor? And your individual portion, how much cream should I order, I ought to know that in advance. cool Should we fix a maximum number of customers we can take we us? And parents? You see, lots to do, please let me know.

?

Kees

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#1909984 - 06/07/12 12:35 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: BDB]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
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Originally Posted By: BDB
If you are given a certain amount of time to tune a piano which was supposed to be tuned before delivery, as often happens to me, there is nothing worse than to find it had been tuned in some way it was not supposed to be tuned. I have had that happen to me, and it was no fun.


If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.
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#1909993 - 06/07/12 12:52 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
BDB Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
Originally Posted By: BDB
If you are given a certain amount of time to tune a piano which was supposed to be tuned before delivery, as often happens to me, there is nothing worse than to find it had been tuned in some way it was not supposed to be tuned. I have had that happen to me, and it was no fun.


If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.


I do not understand what you mean by that. Do you expect me to lower my standards? That may be all right for you, but it is not for me.
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#1910017 - 06/07/12 01:28 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: BDB]
Ed Foote Offline
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[quote If you are given a certain amount of time to tune a piano which was supposed to be tuned before delivery, as often happens to me, there is nothing worse than to find it had been tuned in some way it was not supposed to be tuned. I have had that happen to me, and it was no fun. [/quote]

If you run into a Mean Tone, you would have a fairly unstable situation. However, 1-4 cents change scattered around an octave, (some up, some down, so the overall tension isn't skewed) has never introduced any more instability in my tuning than staying at the same temperament.

If you are tuning a piano from a Victorian era WT, (as in no notes more than 4 cents away from ET), there should be no problem switching temperaments. I've done it innumerable times, going the other way.
And it is easy to see one reason for some tuners' reluctance in introducing a customer to WT. It brings a lot of focus on the tuning. It asks the customer to listen more closely than normal. It makes every unison and octave liable to be examined by someone looking for something.
It is scrutiny, I tell ya. Keeps one on their toes, putting the bright light on the tuning. Not for the timid, for sure.
Regards,
Regards,

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#1910025 - 06/07/12 01:40 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
alfredo capurso Offline
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Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
Originally Posted By: Ed Foote
[quote=Emmery
>> "Open mindedness" is not my concern nor the concern of 99.9% of the techs out there who tune ET...its an issue for the .1% who are trying to sway the vast majority away from accepted norms. Your upset that we are not making an arguement in your favour? <<

.1% ? Where do you get that number from? ...



Out of the thin air of his own mind. That is why I don't bother to refute anything he says on here. Suffice it to say that he does not know what he is talking about from the beginning to the end of each and every rant.


Hi Kees,

What is it that you do not understand?
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#1910103 - 06/07/12 04:31 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: alfredo capurso]
DoelKees Offline
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Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
Originally Posted By: Ed Foote
[quote=Emmery
>> "Open mindedness" is not my concern nor the concern of 99.9% of the techs out there who tune ET...its an issue for the .1% who are trying to sway the vast majority away from accepted norms. Your upset that we are not making an arguement in your favour? <<

.1% ? Where do you get that number from? ...



Out of the thin air of his own mind. That is why I don't bother to refute anything he says on here. Suffice it to say that he does not know what he is talking about from the beginning to the end of each and every rant.


Hi Kees,

What is it that you do not understand?


Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso

In my view, you have All been able to make your point and I do not see any other valuable argument being added for further clarification.

Before being told the same by a moderator sensitive to intonation, shocked would you mind telling me what's your favorite ice cream flavor? And your individual portion, how much cream should I order, I ought to know that in advance. cool Should we fix a maximum number of customers we can take we us? And parents? You see, lots to do, please let me know.


Kees

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#1910113 - 06/07/12 04:55 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: BDB]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
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Registered: 08/21/02
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Originally Posted By: BDB
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
Originally Posted By: BDB
If you are given a certain amount of time to tune a piano which was supposed to be tuned before delivery, as often happens to me, there is nothing worse than to find it had been tuned in some way it was not supposed to be tuned. I have had that happen to me, and it was no fun.


If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.


I do not understand what you mean by that. Do you expect me to lower my standards? That may be all right for you, but it is not for me.


From what I have seen you write, I thought you understood everything. What are your standards?
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#1910244 - 06/07/12 10:07 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Sparky McBiff Offline
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I've been following the various "discussions" about ET and EBVT for some time now and can see valid points of those on both sides of the temperament fence.

Theory and mathematical explanations are nice but I've simply decided to get my piano tuned to EBVT3 in my upcoming tuning and play on that for a while to see how it sounds to me personally.

I may notice a difference, I may not notice a difference, or I may only sometimes notice a difference, but I'm definitely interested in taking it out for a test run.

If I decide that I don't like it then no biggie, I'll just get my tuner to set me back to ET for the next tuning.
If it really irritates me I'll just get him to do it that much sooner.
Either way he'll get paid twice and I'll have a freshly tuned piano each time. laugh

A piano tuning doesn't cost much really and since I started out playing early analog synthesizers I'm used to experimenting with radically different sounds so a slightly different temperament will not freak me out and it will be nice to be able to experience a bit of variation with my grand for a change.

I'm looking forward to it.
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#1910264 - 06/07/12 11:15 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
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Oh WOW!!! Somebody in Emmery's area wants their piano tuned in the EBVT!!! This is truly unprecedented! I have never known an advertising campaign to be so effective!
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#1910317 - 06/08/12 03:46 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Sparky McBiff]
Olek Offline
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Originally Posted By: Sparky McBiff
I've been following the various "discussions" about ET and EBVT for some time now and can see valid points of those on both sides of the temperament fence.

Theory and mathematical explanations are nice but I've simply decided to get my piano tuned to EBVT3 in my upcoming tuning and play on that for a while to see how it sounds to me personally.

I may notice a difference, I may not notice a difference, or I may only sometimes notice a difference, but I'm definitely interested in taking it out for a test run.

If I decide that I don't like it then no biggie, I'll just get my tuner to set me back to ET for the next tuning.
If it really irritates me I'll just get him to do it that much sooner.
Either way he'll get paid twice and I'll have a freshly tuned piano each time. laugh

A piano tuning doesn't cost much really and since I started out playing early analog synthesizers I'm used to experimenting with radically different sounds so a slightly different temperament will not freak me out and it will be nice to be able to experience a bit of variation with my grand for a change.

I'm looking forward to it.



The reports I had is that part of it is good and part of it irritating wink

On a piano like yours ( does it have a plain wood soundbord) you may be limited in spectra richness so only a much inspired tuner may help. Did you record your piano ?

To me. The use of the even beating of 12 & 15 is what differs from most usual et stretchs, and provide a stronger consonance than octave based stretch.

It helps then to open the unisons . That 12 15 ratio is the strongest theoretical concept find in piano tuning lately, while. Many where yet using it partly.


But talking about stability, good to you if you can pay for tunings often, most of my customers prefer some maintenance and tunings less often. 6 months for the ones that play. A lot, but way less once the instrument is. Stable for many of them.
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#1911470 - 06/10/12 02:12 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Tribbs Offline
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I recently had a brief discussion with a RPT about tuning a "new" Shigeru to a non-ET temperament. It was told to me that "new" pianos are designed and built for ET and I should not consider any other.

Does this advice have any merit?

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#1911481 - 06/10/12 02:47 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Tribbs]
Loren D Offline
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Originally Posted By: Tribbs
I recently had a brief discussion with a RPT about tuning a "new" Shigeru to a non-ET temperament. It was told to me that "new" pianos are designed and built for ET and I should not consider any other.

Does this advice have any merit?


In my opinion, no.
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#1911521 - 06/10/12 04:39 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
RonTuner Offline
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Ha! No, that's just silly...

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#1911525 - 06/10/12 05:01 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Olek Offline
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They speak of the correspondence of partials that allow for a fuller tone , probably

(not of the tensions difference or instability, even if by evidence changing the tuning style makes a stable piano in an instable one until it have been tuned the same 3 or 4 times by a competent tuner.....)

So, you opinion ...
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#1911527 - 06/10/12 05:03 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Loren D Offline
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Pianos are not designed for a single temperament.
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#1911637 - 06/10/12 10:29 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Loren D]
Tribbs Offline
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Thanks for all the replies. It was exactly the same as what my instinct told me. But, not being a PT I wanted to be certain. It dismays me to hear otherwise from a member of a family of alleged respectable RPTs.

I have been spending most of today reading an earlier March thread and listening to the recordings there posted by Grandpianoman. I am genuinely intrigued with EBVT III and hope to invite Bill over someday to have a go.

thumb


Edited by Tribbs (06/10/12 10:30 PM)

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#1911666 - 06/11/12 12:07 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Olek Offline
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for sure it is intriging. but dont trust the ready to go sentences neither. pianos, particularly Japanese ones ARE computed from a basic ET with attention to the correspondence between partials (ih) that is supposed to provide ease of tuning, which is the case on most of them. I am astonished to have to answer to such comments wink .
That part of the aspect is demayed, to me Ut would me more accepted on an old piano with very " impure " tone ( the pianos that gave most of the users of UT ) with the Even Beating part of that desequilibrium is fighted. the pleasing effect heard in EBVT is mostly based on the 12 15 even beating. pay a chromatic scale of major or minor chords in EVBT someone if you want to proove your point wink


Edited by Kamin (06/11/12 12:27 AM)
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#1911667 - 06/11/12 12:11 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Loren D]
DoelKees Offline
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Originally Posted By: Loren D
Pianos are not designed for a single temperament.

As Loren says.

Kees

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#1911674 - 06/11/12 12:32 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Olek Offline
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What Loren state is not prooved. any temperament can be tuned on a piano without breaking strings but the designer aim for a consistency in logarythmic progression when choosing strings lenght and diameter.
If you dont mind having a Shigeru more instable than it is yet you can give a try. after all we only live wink
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#1911675 - 06/11/12 12:34 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Olek Offline
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What Loren state is not underlaid by reflexion. any temperament can be tuned on a piano without breaking strings but the designer aim for a consistency in logarithmic progression when choosing strings length and diameter.

If you don't mind having a Shigeru more instable than it is yet naturally (particularly with string's plane) you can give a try. after all we only live once wink

A Shigeru is a special piano that is in need of a first class tuner, somebody that will strive for long term stability before anything.
Once stability begins to install keeping the voicing , plane level/hammer mating good begins to be easier and the technician have more time to do so. (but to my knowledge very few techs are trained to voice those type of pianos as they prefer smooth hammers with lacquer as a mean to have much power at the expense of voice, in my opinion)

Shigeru voicing (with spectra analysis):


PS Also, regulation wise , there is One and only way to regulate those actions, that is a huge difference with most grands, and if you don't know how you will leave the action a step lower...

So I would be ready to tune an UT on an older piano where the tone have not been purified as it is the case on the modern ones, when I tried a few Wells tuning on concert Steinway, the only comment I had from the musicians was that the piano was poorly tuned, they find no advantage in that.

But I like meantone (on an organ) Valotti on an harpsichord, or others, simply not my daily practice.



Edited by Kamin (06/11/12 05:18 AM)
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#1911676 - 06/11/12 12:41 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Olek Offline
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the main effect of reussite of EBVT is the inexperimented tuner who believe he tuned THE EBVT because there is no possibility to verify that. Very rewarding, and well you dont even need to know how to tune a decent unison then.
just from what I could hear until now.
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#1911742 - 06/11/12 07:27 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Loren D Offline
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Kamin, a piano IS NOT DESIGNED FOR A PARTICULAR TEMPERAMENT. Period! Simple as that! Ten paragraphs not need, seriously!
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#1911752 - 06/11/12 08:02 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Tribbs]
Loren D Offline
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Originally Posted By: Tribbs
Thanks for all the replies. It was exactly the same as what my instinct told me. But, not being a PT I wanted to be certain. It dismays me to hear otherwise from a member of a family of alleged respectable RPTs.

I have been spending most of today reading an earlier March thread and listening to the recordings there posted by Grandpianoman. I am genuinely intrigued with EBVT III and hope to invite Bill over someday to have a go.

thumb


It's a very nice temperament if you like personality between the keys!
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#1911756 - 06/11/12 08:13 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Mark R. Offline
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So, shouting makes a point more valid, but referring to Wikipedia (as one of many possible sources) doesn't?
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#1911764 - 06/11/12 08:31 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Mark R.]
Loren D Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mark R.
So, shouting makes a point more valid, but referring to Wikipedia (as one of many possible sources) doesn't?


Shouting doesn't make a point more valid, and neither does Wikipedia, to answer your question!
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#1911770 - 06/11/12 08:41 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
"This article does not cite any references or sources. Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (July 2009)"

Sounds like something I'd bank on for sure!
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DiGiorgi Piano Service (1984-2013)
http://www.digiorgipiano.com

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#1911780 - 06/11/12 09:10 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Loren D]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Loren D
Kamin, a piano IS NOT DESIGNED FOR A PARTICULAR TEMPERAMENT. Period! Simple as that! Ten paragraphs not need, seriously!


Loren you are admirable with your simple sentence your simple trusts and your few words sentences (may I add your simple everything...).

I wonder if you have the slightest idea on how a piano is designed, I should not.

You dont seem to have much curiosity for those questions anyway.
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#1911794 - 06/11/12 09:38 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
You know, Kamin, someone who knows what he's talking about knows how to get a point across in as few words possible. I would suspect that someone without a clue has to ramble on and on and on (and on!) in an attempt to impress others.
_________________________
DiGiorgi Piano Service (1984-2013)
http://www.digiorgipiano.com

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#1911816 - 06/11/12 10:23 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Tribbs]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3296
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: Tribbs
I recently had a brief discussion with a RPT about tuning a "new" Shigeru to a non-ET temperament. It was told to me that "new" pianos are designed and built for ET and I should not consider any other.

Does this advice have any merit?


Whoever said that is one of those people who is eternally stuck on the concept of ET only. There are plenty of them out there. The principle reason they hold on to that position will never be admitted for what it really is: fear. Fear of the unknown. Fear of howling wolves and blood curdling dissonances. Fear of having to go back to re-tune a piano for free! Fear of having to learn something new. Fear of having to change the way they have always worked for so many years.

They will say almost anything to support their position and can claim any number of resources to back them up. You'll find plenty of that on here, including a recent angry and vitriolic topic that was self titled a "rant". The intent of that topic was to make the idea of using the Well Temperament that I designed 20 years ago (or any other non-equal temperament, for that matter) appear foolish and misguided.

Completely unfounded statistics such as "99.9% of pianos are tuned in ET" are pulled out of thin air. Perhaps one might say that was only hyperbole but then again, just about everything that is said while trying to denounce the use of non-equal temperaments turns out to be an emotionally charged attack without any foundation in fact or experience. Unfortunately for the people who engage in these denunciations, the tactics have a way of backfiring on them. Their efforts only end up creating more interest and curiosity about a subject they wish would just go away.

I have seen the same thing happen over and over for 15 years now, ever since I first got a computer and began to write on piano technology forums. My own study and use of non-equal temperaments began long before that, so I always knew what I was talking about, at least fundamentally. Of course, I have also learned much more along the way. I have learned much from other technicians who practice the non-equal temperaments and I have also learned to identify those who rant and rave against their use for whom they are are and why they do so.

The truth is that any piano, built today or since the modern piano came into existence well over 100 years ago, has its scale design based upon theoretical Equal Temperament. That is merely a basic framework from which to start and does not in any way mean that the piano must or should be tuned to those theoretical frequencies. If it is, it won't sound very good at all and every technician on here knows that.

It is also true that the manufacturer of any high end instrument such as the Shigeru Kawai, Steinway, Fazioli, Bechstein, Bösendorfer, etc., recommends and desires their instruments to be maintained only by highly experienced and qualified technicians. Having the same tuning applied time and again by the same technician using the same techniques does, in fact, lend itself to the instrument maintaining its stability.

That being said, in the kind of climate that prevails over most of North America, the pitch of any piano naturally changes over the course of every year. The actual difference between a properly executed ET and the EBVT III in which you have shown an interest is far smaller than the changes a technician must typically make when correcting a piano that has gone out of tune due to seasonal changes. This is especially true for new pianos which have a tendency to lose pitch for the first several years.

So, any of these warnings or admonitions against having your piano tuned in the EBVT III or any other mild Well Temperament, Mild Meantone or Modified Meantone, that it will somehow damage the piano or any music to be played upon it are completely without foundation. Those statements are made by people who have no experience in crafting non-equal temperaments for general use on the modern piano.

In making these statements, they are not looking out for your best interest; they are only trying to prevent the inevitable day when someone asks them to tune a piano that way. They don't want to do it, they think they would not like how it would sound to them (and don't even consider your interest and desire) and will do or say anything to keep you from exploring the many beauties that the piano has to offer solely for their own selfish reasons.

The choice of how you would like to have your piano tuned should be up to you, not your technician. Whether or not you understand all of the theory or techniques, be they in tuning, voicing, regulation, etc., is not what matters either. What matters is whether you are pleased and satisfied with the way your piano sounds and performs under the maintenance of the technician you choose.

If you are not satisfied with the way one technician services your piano and he/she is not responsive to you for any desired changes, then you certainly have the right to choose another and not be concerned about doing so. It happens all the time. In the community where I live, there are many fine technicians and we each have our own clientele and people who recommend us for one reason or another.

The choice you make should be your own decision. It would be better for a technician who only wants to tune ET to say that he/she simply does not practice or engage in the use of non-equal temperaments and leave it at that. A person in business will naturally want to offer the services which are most in demand.

For example, I do not service electronic keyboards, organs, player pianos, modern player systems nor do I do finish touch-up or repair, or many of the other services that a piano technician might offer is there were enough demand. I have enough business doing what I know how to do well. I refer other requests to other technicians.

It would be a far better idea for those technicians who do not choose to tune non-equal temperaments to do likewise rather than to try to suppress the idea with false and unfounded claims.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1911823 - 06/11/12 10:36 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
Anyone that is willing to the key word here is l e a r n something new can. Anyone that is open to learning something new can. That is the only reason that your RPT says what he says. He doesn't want to do it or can't. Ask some non RPTs what they know about it where u live. You'll get the same response. People learn what they want to learn. Just look at how stubborn a few non RPTs in here are towards it? Haha
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#1911838 - 06/11/12 11:00 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
Internet up here SUCKS! I didn't know anything about the EBVTIii either and didn't care until a few years ago when I started listening and learning more about it. I still couldn't learn it. Just one of those guys that is a slow slow learner so I had Bill B come to my house to teach it to me. Now I can use it if and when I need to do so or whenI want to do so. I think that is very important personally, to be able to do something like that if the customer asks for it. So long as it pertains to our profession. .

As Bill states too, there are many things that some people choose not to do too such as tuning pipe organs. Whie I can, because my family used to tune them, I choose not to do it because I don't want to do it. I don't like it.

Imam typing on an iPad 3 so mistakes galore.
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#1911853 - 06/11/12 11:24 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Jerry Groot RPT]
Cinnamonbear Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3981
Loc: Rockford, IL
Originally Posted By: Jerry Groot RPT
[...] Imam typing on an iPad 3 so mistakes galore.


Looks like you're learning lots of new things, Jer! Whoa, man! Slow down! You're making me tired just watching you! laugh
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but at least I'm slow.

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#1911867 - 06/11/12 11:42 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
Yeah! I'm supposed to be on vacation. The keyboard is dinky. Hah. I can use the voice microphone too but, for some reason, whenever I do that everyone looks at me like I'm talking to myself or something!?


Edited by Jerry Groot RPT (06/11/12 11:45 AM)
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#1911909 - 06/11/12 01:18 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
Originally Posted By: Tribbs
I recently had a brief discussion with a RPT about tuning a "new" Shigeru to a non-ET temperament. It was told to me that "new" pianos are designed and built for ET and I should not consider any other.

Does this advice have any merit?


Those statements are made by people who have no experience in crafting non-equal temperaments for general use on the modern piano.



I might add that those same people have no experience in designing modern pianos either!

Has anyone ever seen their names on the fallboard of an instrument which they have designed?

Since starting this "Non-Rant" thread, it has been filled with many rants. Nothing which has been said convinces me that ET is superior to UT. I find it just the opposite. I hear EBVT to be superior.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#1911912 - 06/11/12 01:21 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Jerry Groot RPT]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
Hey Jer,

Think Vacation and go catch me some perch!
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#1912268 - 06/12/12 09:46 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
Ok! Vacation! Vacation! Vacation! Perch! Mmmmmmm.
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#1912340 - 06/12/12 12:25 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
chuck belknap Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/14/10
Posts: 36
Loc: Oklahoma
Just returned from a trip to OKC yesterday where one of my favorite customers recently moved with her gorgeous Schimmel
Grand.

I introduced her to EBVT III several years ago when she lived in my city, and since she moved, she insists that I continue to tune for her. After tuning I told her that if she did not want to wait for me in scheduling to make the 100 mile trip that I could introduce her to two or three of the greatest tuners I know from our chapter that would take great care of her piano. She asked if they would tune her "special temperament", and I told her that they would only tune ET.

She told me that she will always gladly wait till I can schedule her.

Her piano teacher actually comes to her house for lessons, something she does only for her, and her teacher inquired if I would tune her piano like hers. A good friend tunes for her, and I will not invade on him, but the point is that EBVT makes pianos so much more clear that people playing it immediately notice, and have a great impression of the instrument.

Just sayin'

Charles Belknap

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#1912382 - 06/12/12 02:04 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: chuck belknap]
Tribbs Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/13/12
Posts: 43
Loc: Madtown
Originally Posted By: chuck belknap

[...] the point is that EBVT makes pianos so much more clear that people playing it immediately notice, and have a great impression of the instrument.
[...]


Last night I received and listened to...



While listening to the last two tracks of Mozart, Fantasia for piano in D minor,

track 12 [Prelleur, 1731]
track 13 [Eqaul]

I can easilly relate to the "cleanliness" you and your client are refering. I am beginning to dislike the "jittery" sound of ET. Now that I am cognisant of the differences, ET is unnerving to me.
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#1912403 - 06/12/12 03:07 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Tribbs]
Ed Foote Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 1228
Loc: Tennessee
Originally Posted By: Tribbs


Last night I received and listened to... (Six Degrees of Tonality)
While listening to the last two tracks of Mozart, Fantasia for piano in D minor,
track 12 [Prelleur, 1731]
track 13 [Eqaul]
I can easilly relate to the "cleanliness" you and your client are refering. I am beginning to dislike the "jittery" sound of ET. Now that I am cognisant of the differences, ET is unnerving to me.


Greetings,
Well, I did put a warning on the back that pure intervals can be habit forming! Some people thought I was just trying to be facetious, but no, a shift of perspective has occurred to many upon their introduction to the sound of a well-tempered piano.

It can leave your ET recordings sounding a little less attractive than they did before. (at least, I have been told that, also, several times..)
Anyway, I am glad you like it.

( I have been trying to get it placed for commercial download, selling it by the sonata, with the Mozart comparison given away for free. The services don't like to give anything away for free, so what does the crowd think? Would it be worth 25 cents to hear a Mozart composition in three different tunings, on the exact same piano, same mics, etc?

I am pretty naive about marketing, so would welcome anybody's previous experience. I have sold almost all of the original pressings, and so far, only lost about 2 dollars apiece on them, ( It's a good thing I didn't sell more!!!).
Regards,

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#1912431 - 06/12/12 04:43 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Ed Foote]
Tribbs Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/13/12
Posts: 43
Loc: Madtown
at minimum 96kHz/24bit? By all means!
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The People's Cube


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#1912455 - 06/12/12 05:47 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Welcome Trtibbs , it is good to see new people on the forum
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#1912510 - 06/12/12 08:49 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Sparky McBiff Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/10
Posts: 1112
Loc: Toronto, Ontario
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
Oh WOW!!! Somebody in Emmery's area wants their piano tuned in the EBVT!!! This is truly unprecedented! I have never known an advertising campaign to be so effective!


Totally uncalled for Bill.
_________________________
Hailun 198







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#1912515 - 06/12/12 09:09 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Olek]
Sparky McBiff Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/10
Posts: 1112
Loc: Toronto, Ontario
Originally Posted By: Kamin

The reports I had is that part of it is good and part of it irritating wink


Well I've had "reports" from people about movies or songs or cars which people have liked or disliked and I've always found that their "reports" often had nothing to do with my own subsequent "report".

Remember, a "report" is nothing more than a personal "opinion" and when it comes to myself I only decide something after researching or experiencing an issue personally.


Quote:

But talking about stability, good to you if you can pay for tunings often, most of my customers prefer some maintenance and tunings less often. 6 months for the ones that play. A lot, but way less once the instrument is. Stable for many of them.


Considering that any piano in ET that gets somewhat out of tune is often further out than EBVT3 is from ET I don't see how any of this insinuation of a "lack of stability" is going to fly.

I may not be a professional piano tuner personally (although I regularly tuned my old Emerson upright myself) but I have taken several university Physics courses in Sound Theory so I am very much interested in experiencing something other than ET on my piano in order to see how it sits with my brain PERSONALLY.

Although my tuner prefers ET personally he has stated that he has absolutely no problem tuning it EBVT for me if I so wish.
_________________________
Hailun 198







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#1912531 - 06/12/12 09:54 PM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
Sparky, funny that you say that. Often times I hate movies that end up getting good reviews, and end up liking ones that got totally panned.
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#1912650 - 06/13/12 03:20 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
I also prefer something true to somethong perfect. If you where kerping concert pianos in tune you would understoo what I mean about stability.

Having the wire and the tuning pin in its prefered place ( ever noticed how pin and wire seem to come back to a previously knokn place when tuning, Loren? ) is a long task and tuners are attentive not to change too drastically a concert piano.
But any experience is possible without real harm.. no problem there.

In The main problem of a generation of tuners there is that thir tuning method directly address beats, leaving the whple tone apart. Hopefully many tuners dont really listen and simply tune the piano.
The need for logical explanations and a simplified method makes those strange tunings nzmed ET in some part of the world. They are often poorly consonant for a reason that escapes me but that I suppose is what I said above. Then any new harmony would be prefered. In regions where tuninv is more learned by doing. the result is more surprizing to the ear and no need for added contrast between tonalities is perceived.
Sorry to say that most tunings I heard have the aspect of good tuning but the body and heart is rare. It may be easier then for tthe tuner to work from an UT.
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#1912715 - 06/13/12 08:19 AM Re: Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist [Re: Olek]
Tribbs Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/13/12
Posts: 43
Loc: Madtown
Originally Posted By: Kamin
Welcome Trtibbs , it is good to see new people on the forum
Thank you for your welcome, Kamin.
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