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#2128865 - 08/06/13 09:35 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Loren D]
Mark R. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 2043
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
He is using sandpaper shims.
_________________________
Autodidact interested in piano technology.

1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

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#2128873 - 08/06/13 09:56 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Johnkie]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Johnkie
If he was using the metal shims Max ... it just doesn't work ! They are terrible and he would be better off using sandpaper or your preferred cardboard.

or your preferred cardboard. It's great!
Thank,Johnkie. About the fact that Erik used the metal shims I'm seen. And it's does not work.
I also realized that he made a tighten using a sandpaper and it is satisfies him . But about the cardboard I did not read anything there
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2128876 - 08/06/13 10:00 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Mark R.]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Mark R.
He is using sandpaper shims.

Thank you Mark R,I understood so it. He set sandpaper shims and he turns pin into a pinblock
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2134628 - 08/18/13 01:12 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Loren D]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
"Is it possible to patent an invention in Russia?"

It's been 3 years, but the Russian Forum technicians, led by the moderator Alexy have mocking laugh about the cardboard of Max. He ( moderator) even created a topics: "Is it possible to patent an invention in Russia?"
But Max is not discouraged, because he believes in cardboard shim because it's help repair hopeless piano


ALEXY
Скоро будет 5 лет, как я принимаю участие в нашем форуме.
Высказано много интересных мыслей, проходят необычные решения, предложения по конструкциям фортепиано, по восстановлению их, по материалам и орудиям труда.
Некоторые изобретения явно могли быть зафиксированы , как авторская находка.
Кстати , это касается и всех мастеров , работающих на ниве создания, обслуживания и восстановления музыкальных инструментов.
Был ли подобный опыт , вот в чем вопрос


ALEXY
It will soon be five years since I participate in the forum.
Expressed many interesting ideas, are unusual solutions, proposals for repair piano, to restore them, the materials and instruments of labor.
Some inventions can be clearly recorded, as the author's repair.
By the way, this applies to all technicians working in the field of creation, maintenance and repair of musical instruments.
Was this experience, that is the question


Tuner
Алексей!
Это опасный путь, ведь так можно запатентовать закрепление строя шкуркой, бумагой, пластмассой и все, что угодно - поскольку все это "патентно чисто".

Кто будет экспертом, определяющим патентную чистоту? Либо тот, кто ничего не понимает в фортепианном деле и совершенно формально проверяющий иностранные патенты, либо точно такой же "изобретатель", уже засветившийся в патентном бюро и потому ставший "экспертом".

Tuner
Alexy!
This is a dangerous way, is not it can be patented a tighten abrasive cloth, cardboard paper, plastic and any - because everything is "purely patent."


Who is an expert in determining the purity of the patent? Or the one who does not understand anything in a piano case and quite formally validating foreign patents, or exactly the same, the "inventor" is who have blat at the patent office, and therefore become the "expert."


erisipilloid
Вопрос многогранный, но все же.А чего Вы от патента хочите -то? Можно и картон запатентовать, и никакого "чистого" патенства ненужно, как раз за бугром, Вы можете любую ересь запатентовать, и никому до этого дела нет.. Главный вопрос кому нужна эта Ваша ересь?, гофрокартон например? Ответ-никому!


erisipilloid
A multi-faceted issue, but still. And what do you want from a patent ? You can would patent cardboard and there is no "pure" patent is unnecessary as the time abroad. You can patent any heresy here, and nobody no deal .. The big question who needs this your heresy? A corrugated cardboard for example? The answer is none!

http://www.forumklassika.ru/showthread.php?t=96168&s=af98eda330fcac54a33a822fc3263bc9
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2183842 - 11/17/13 10:09 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Loren D]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
E.Kalman . The duo Silva and Ephiny from the operetta "Silva "
This upright piano " Belarus " 1972. The fact is that in those years (71-72) in the music factory in Borisov's town were admitted technological marriage fixation of a pins . Was it due to the pins with a special compound coating of zinc, which delete peeled off from it's, and as a result there are some grease pins , which led to the absence of friction between a pin and a hole of a pinblock (bush).May be a hole of a pinblock was done incorrectly a drilling the hole under the pin and a bush, their cross section was big than usual standard . After prolonged use , "Belarus" loose these pins . Hammering pin usually does not lead to positive results. In our case , the tuner has done a sloppy procedure hammering pin . A piano was dead. Owners pianos were delivered before the fact to get rid of the non-working piano. Only thanks to the effort maxim_tuner and his install corrugated cardboard shims under part of the pins the piano again returned to life. Now Max make tuning and we are play music . Kalman sounds convincing and life-affirming sounds of " Silva " joy gives their beauty.
Glory corrugated cardboard which savior defective and ancient piano!
http://youtu.be/cC9dljInZOM
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2183936 - 11/17/13 01:57 PM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Maximillyan]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2440
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
"..Glory corrugated cardboard which savior defective and ancient piano!"

A word of warning to the cardboard Messiah. Cardboard is very much different from normal writing paper in several ways. It has a courser fibre content and typically contains acids and chemicals which are normally removed from stationary paper.

It became well known with paper documents of the past that they did not last long because the fibers deteriorates and break down due to the high acidity. The recipe for their manufacture was altered so that PH levels were neutralized or even shifted to the alkaline direction. Documents could be preserved longer. This did not happen with cardboard. Most industrial grade cardboard has high acidity and numerous treatment chemicals left in it and could deteriorate over time or effect items which they come into contact with. Not sure what effect this might have on blued tuning pins, but its highly unlikely it would be positive.

There are specialty cardboards available which are ph neutral just like writing paper and Max may want to consider using this
instead. There are also special pens available to test the acidity of paper.


Edited by Emmery (11/17/13 01:58 PM)
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#2183943 - 11/17/13 02:12 PM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Emmery]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7887
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Emmery
"..Glory corrugated cardboard which savior defective and ancient piano!"

A word of warning to the cardboard Messiah. Cardboard is very much different from normal writing paper in several ways. It has a courser fibre content and typically contains acids and chemicals which are normally removed from stationary paper.

It became well known with paper documents of the past that they did not last long because the fibers deteriorates and break down due to the high acidity. The recipe for their manufacture was altered so that PH levels were neutralized or even shifted to the alkaline direction. Documents could be preserved longer. This did not happen with cardboard. Most industrial grade cardboard has high acidity and numerous treatment chemicals left in it and could deteriorate over time or effect items which they come into contact with. Not sure what effect this might have on blued tuning pins, but its highly unlikely it would be positive.

There are specialty cardboards available which are ph neutral just like writing paper and Max may want to consider using this
instead. There are also special pens available to test the acidity of paper.


That is eventual good information.

I would not think of using cardboard to shim tuning pins (I would use wood or even brass foil) but I tune a 1900 grand Steinway with original block and the pins just one size up.

Many pin's hole are "plugged" with 2 carboard shims, some of then even by simple thick paper.
The first times I tuned that piano I thought that the tuning would not hold well, as the feel was really sloppy and lack the wanted firmness. But today after may be 5 tunings, I have one pin that I feel too soft, all the others are firm and the piano, played professionally, exhibit not large loss of pith or the infamous string that doe snot stay put where the pin cannot be set.
This is not corrugated cardboard but standard grey cardboard of unknown quality.

The new firmness is of course due to the pin setting method but the cardboard does not make that impossible as I thought.

Hey if eventually some acidity is corroding the pin inside the block, that could even add some friction don't you think ?

I wonder if parchment would do well for that use.



Edited by Olek (11/17/13 02:22 PM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2183945 - 11/17/13 02:18 PM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Loren D]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7887
Loc: France
It have no much to do with any Messiah, and the value of corrugated cardboard hardly can be proved, as the user does not tune really at a level allowing to hear that the piano hold tuning correctly, we cannot judge the quality of the pin setting and are obliged to trust him.

I tested in a soft woodblock and the feeling with corrugated carboard was not that bad. less bad than I thought. Now how does it stay in time,I dont know. It is also more time consuming, as when using cardboard shims or wooden ones the pin is hammered in the block, not screwed.
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


Top
#2183955 - 11/17/13 02:42 PM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Olek]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2440
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Originally Posted By: Olek
It have no much to do with any Messiah, and the value of corrugated cardboard hardly can be proved, as the user does not tune really at a level allowing to hear that the piano hold tuning correctly, we cannot judge the quality of the pin setting and are obliged to trust him.

I tested in a soft woodblock and the feeling with corrugated carboard was not that bad. less bad than I thought. Now how does it stay in time,I dont know. It is also more time consuming, as when using cardboard shims or wooden ones the pin is hammered in the block, not screwed.


I had used paper and cardboard many years ago and its not bad. I know several oldtimer techs who recommended it with similar results. It is hard to judge how much is too much and I often worried about splitting a block apart farther if it showed a tendancy towards this. I haven't used it in years because for minor/cheaper fixes, CA Glue works well, and for everything else I use over sized pins. The pins are known fixed sizes and with experience you learn to go 1 or 2 sizes over for varying amounts of looseness, sometimes accompanied with some truing up/sizing with a reamer. I find its more foolproof for getting eactly the torque I'm looking for on that pin.


Edited by Emmery (11/17/13 02:44 PM)
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#2184388 - 11/18/13 08:58 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Emmery]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Emmery
"..Glory corrugated cardboard which savior defective and ancient piano!"

A word of warning to the cardboard Messiah. Cardboard is very much different from normal writing paper in several ways. It has a courser fibre content and typically contains acids and chemicals which are normally removed from stationary paper.

It became well known with paper documents of the past that they did not last long because the fibers deteriorates and break down due to the high acidity. The recipe for their manufacture was altered so that PH levels were neutralized or even shifted to the alkaline direction. Documents could be preserved longer. This did not happen with cardboard. Most industrial grade cardboard has high acidity and numerous treatment chemicals left in it and could deteriorate over time or effect items which they come into contact with. Not sure what effect this might have on blued tuning pins, but its highly unlikely it would be positive.

There are specialty cardboards available which are ph neutral just like writing paper and Max may want to consider using this
instead. There are also special pens available to test the acidity of paper.

Dear Emmery, I can not disagree with you. Indeed cardboard manufacturers all world use different chemical compositions. There will be a variety of acidic and alkaline. This can influence bad both the wood and the metal pin. However I do not suppose that this will a significant factor and lead to a negative effect, because it has a small percentage of these substances.
Thanks for your the scientific approach in criticizing Max's cardboard shim.
Sincerely, Max
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2184395 - 11/18/13 09:09 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Olek]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Olek
Originally Posted By: Emmery
"..Glory corrugated cardboard which savior defective and ancient piano!"

A word of warning to the cardboard Messiah. Cardboard is very much different from normal writing paper in several ways. It has a courser fibre content and typically contains acids and chemicals which are normally removed from stationary paper.

It became well known with paper documents of the past that they did not last long because the fibers deteriorates and break down due to the high acidity. The recipe for their manufacture was altered so that PH levels were neutralized or even shifted to the alkaline direction. Documents could be preserved longer. This did not happen with cardboard. Most industrial grade cardboard has high acidity and numerous treatment chemicals left in it and could deteriorate over time or effect items which they come into contact with. Not sure what effect this might have on blued tuning pins, but its highly unlikely it would be positive.

There are specialty cardboards available which are ph neutral just like writing paper and Max may want to consider using this
instead. There are also special pens available to test the acidity of paper.



Hey if eventually some acidity is corroding the pin inside the block, that could even add some friction don't you think ?


I wonder if parchment would do well for that use.

"that could even add some friction don't you think ?"
I think "YES"
In 14-15 c. its use for repair pin of harpsichord
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2184396 - 11/18/13 09:12 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Olek]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Olek
I tested in a soft woodblock and the feeling with corrugated carboard was not that bad. less bad than I thought. Now how does it stay in time,I dont know. It is also more time consuming, as when using cardboard shims or wooden ones the pin is hammered in the block, not screwed.

Thanks,Isaac
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

Top
#2184401 - 11/18/13 09:22 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Emmery]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Emmery
Originally Posted By: Olek
It have no much to do with any Messiah, and the value of corrugated cardboard hardly can be proved, as the user does not tune really at a level allowing to hear that the piano hold tuning correctly, we cannot judge the quality of the pin setting and are obliged to trust him.

I tested in a soft woodblock and the feeling with corrugated carboard was not that bad. less bad than I thought. Now how does it stay in time,I dont know. It is also more time consuming, as when using cardboard shims or wooden ones the pin is hammered in the block, not screwed.


I had used paper and cardboard many years ago and its not bad. I know several oldtimer techs who recommended it with similar results. It is hard to judge how much is too much and I often worried about splitting a block apart farther if it showed a tendancy towards this. I haven't used it in years because for minor/cheaper fixes, CA Glue works well, and for everything else I use over sized pins. The pins are known fixed sizes and with experience you learn to go 1 or 2 sizes over for varying amounts of looseness, sometimes accompanied with some truing up/sizing with a reamer. I find its more foolproof for getting eactly the torque I'm looking for on that pin.

I agree with every your word. Every medal has two sides. Any thing has both a positive and a negative side. Cardboard in the hole still positive, I think
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2184894 - 11/19/13 01:44 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Olek]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Olek
Originally Posted By: Emmery
"..Glory corrugated cardboard which savior defective and ancient piano!"

A word of warning to the cardboard Messiah. Cardboard is very much different from normal writing paper in several ways. It has a courser fibre content and typically contains acids and chemicals which are normally removed from stationary paper.

It became well known with paper documents of the past that they did not last long because the fibers deteriorates and break down due to the high acidity. The recipe for their manufacture was altered so that PH levels were neutralized or even shifted to the alkaline direction. Documents could be preserved longer. This did not happen with cardboard. Most industrial grade cardboard has high acidity and numerous treatment chemicals left in it and could deteriorate over time or effect items which they come into contact with. Not sure what effect this might have on blued tuning pins, but its highly unlikely it would be positive.

There are specialty cardboards available which are ph neutral just like writing paper and Max may want to consider using this
instead. There are also special pens available to test the acidity of paper.


That is eventual good information.

I would not think of using cardboard to shim tuning pins (I would use wood or even brass foil) but I tune a 1900 grand Steinway with original block and the pins just one size up.

Many pin's hole are "plugged" with 2 carboard shims, some of then even by simple thick paper.
The first times I tuned that piano I thought that the tuning would not hold well, as the feel was really sloppy and lack the wanted firmness. But today after may be 5 tunings, I have one pin that I feel too soft, all the others are firm and the piano, played professionally, exhibit not large loss of pith or the infamous string that doe snot stay put where the pin cannot be set.
This is not corrugated cardboard but standard grey cardboard of unknown quality.

The new firmness is of course due to the pin setting method but the cardboard does not make that impossible as I thought.

Hey if eventually some acidity is corroding the pin inside the block, that could even add some friction don't you think ?

I wonder if parchment would do well for that use.


Dear Isaac , I'm with particular trepidation read your message about the 1900 Grand Steinway. I dare to assume that the previous tuner guided my video about to tighten pin with a cardboard shim. Especially nice to read "but today, after maybe 5 tunings , I have one conclusion, which I feel is too soft , the rest of the firm and piano, played professionally ." This proves once again that the cardboard or as you wrote , " but it's not the standard corrugated cardboard gray unknown quality " has the right as a means to tighten pin . The only difference from my installation it's " with 2 cardboard shims simple thick paper " is a pin hole " hammered " here. Some of my followers have written to me that they use a thin cardboard shims less than 2mm . They screwed pin by 2-3 turns , then "plugged " it's. I suppose such an operation possibility , but personally I'm still slowly twist pin with shim to standard height above the plate .
Once again, many thanks for your scientific approach to a theme
Regards, Max
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2184952 - 11/19/13 06:30 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Loren D]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7887
Loc: France
There are 2 strips of cardboard each pin.

The tactile feedback in the lever was poor initially, and the tuning pins not very firm, but now it is more firm, this is due to the tuning technique, the cardboard strips make it possible.

That piano is still in need of repairs.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6GjQDkF_AMQV0d1dmZUNFpJeVk/edit?usp=sharing

In France I always have seen the use of wood veener for such repair of the pin. Then some are too tight. Carboard and paper can be used with different thicknesses, that is the case on that piano.

The cardboard repair have been done about 20 years ago, sorry, it was not seeing your videos (To be honest the technicians cannot trust much your results because your unison / tuning are not clean enough, so it does not look much professional.)

It is not enough to have a pin that does not turn back with the wire tension, the notes have to be tuned, also.

Work your tuning, I see no reason you could not learn to do more firm tunings.
best regards



Edited by Olek (11/19/13 10:34 AM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2185004 - 11/19/13 09:08 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Olek]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Olek
There are 2 strips of cardboard each pin.

The tactile feedback in the lever was poor initially, and the tuning pins not very firm, but now it is more firm, this is due to the tuning technique, the cardboard strips make it possible.

That piano is still in need of repairs.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6GjQDkF_AMQQWM2Y0R1aHNQOEE/edit?usp=sharing

In France I always have seen the use of wood veener for such repair of the pin. Then some are too tight. Carboard and paper can be used with different thicknesses, that is the case on that piano.

The cardboard repair have been done about 20 years ago, sorry, it was not seeing your videos (To be honest the technicians cannot trust much your results because your unison / tuning are not clean enough, so it does not look much professional.)

It is not enough to have a pin that does not turn back with the wire tension, the notes have to be tuned, also.

Work your tuning, I see no reason you could not learn to do more firm tunings.
best regards


Dear Isaac , thanks for the music that you taped with this piano .I listened and to me it sounds nice and perfectly tuned grand piano.Isaac,good job.I can not believe that cardboard "works here" . The fact that in France the wood veener for such repair of the pin is used correctly. This additional rigidity for each pin . However, I have concerns that the use of wood makes it difficult when rotate the handle of a hammer.
I believe that there is no reason not to believe in a cardboard Max's shim just because " it unison / settings are not clean enough , so it does not look very professional ." Sounds must tuning correctly and Max slowly but surely moving in this direction also . He is full of strength and energy to go on. A install shim this is not a whim of Max, but a vital necessity to restore clunkers piano worldwide.
Regards, Max
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2187940 - 11/25/13 07:54 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Emmery]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Emmery
Originally Posted By: Olek
It have no much to do with any Messiah, and the value of corrugated cardboard hardly can be proved, as the user does not tune really at a level allowing to hear that the piano hold tuning correctly, we cannot judge the quality of the pin setting and are obliged to trust him.

I tested in a soft woodblock and the feeling with corrugated carboard was not that bad. less bad than I thought. Now how does it stay in time,I dont know. It is also more time consuming, as when using cardboard shims or wooden ones the pin is hammered in the block, not screwed.


I had used paper and cardboard many years ago and its not bad.


Again an endless stream dirt pours against Max's shim at Russian forum "Classic." For more than two years, as he was expelled and banned all talk about his shim but today moderator closed the theme just because one technician restorer used the method cardboard shim when made refurbishing own piano.
Some extracts the charges members of forum here.
Upright piano W.Hoffmann (1900-1910 years) revivification
Graffity

Modestly 'll put my 5 cents , about the progress of cases. Finally finished glued work. With the bass region had to work hard - there was brutal , pinblock drilled through here was huge deep cracks . I generally pour epoxy into the holes - and she as a black hole how not much flood of a glued all leaked . As a result, in one go is the resin was over a total of 200-300 ml poured there offhand to fill all the gaps , and I suspect that corpus taped together in a couple of places with resin oozed onto the floor.
Oh, and the hole in the bass filled almost to the top and so left - from large cracks resin may leak if pumped her full of holes .
Now I understand that it was possible from the beginning to dissolve liter resin and just pour all that is possible at once. Holes are drilled easily after hardening resin walls do not suffer splitting screwed / unscrewed resin does not adhere to them all as the doctor ordered.
Tomorrow I'll take standart drill 6.5 limiter , in the bass leave "extra " depth of the holes filled with resin.
Tried to twist a pin with cardboard , holds tightly very hard , I'm not ever tuning new pianos , but the effort to turn it's no less than hammering pin downed with slight hints break a pin or a hammer . I hope all crack withstand .

19.11.2013, 07:48 # 74
kraskyun

Welcome Dmitriy. As your repair pinblock business? Interested by your promise,, screwing,, with cardboard or without. You already defined as going to insert a pin in a pinblock? On this subject there is an interesting discussion with MT (Maxim-Tuner) Max, you can read?

19.11.2013, 16:38 #75
Graffity
I want to try the old pins with cardboard, because if you put the new, will have to drill deeper, and I think that the wood should be the minimum impact, given his age and status. Watched all the videos on YouTube Max's shim cardboard and all his acts is convincing. In practice I'm one pin screwed, and a normal flight, as I wrote above. The last couple of days too busy, not to the piano, I hope these days continue

Shuh
Message from Graffity
Watched all the videos on YouTube with Max's cardboard fix
You look nothing???


ALEXY
Message from Graffity
I want to try the old pins with cardboard, because if you put the new, will have to drill deeper, and I think that the wood should be the minimum impact, given his age and status. Watched all the videos on YouTube Max's shim cardboard and all his acts is convincing. In practice I'm one pin screwed, and a normal flight, as I wrote above. The last couple of days too busy, not to the piano, I hope these days continue


Due to the fact that the author of the topic smoothly, after several attempts, went on to discuss the conduct of work in no way connected with the restoration of piano but rather with its destruction, the theme is closed.
http://www.forumklassika.ru/showthread.php?t=97501

http://youtu.be/ZpUIfXI6Jnc
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#2221210 - 01/27/14 12:28 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Loren D]
Maximillyan Offline
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Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Argentine man wrote me:
thanks ,max, I will register there later.
The trick I told you about loose tuning pins is to use the footwrap technique that you use but using a little strip made of a piece of sandpaper fiber disk. I will make a video of it later. Have you ever heard about that?
Pins just get really tight. It is awesome and I didn't saw it anywhere on the internet. It is a secret that a fellow technician told me. It is awesome. I saved my piano that way. Couldn't tune it even to A=400 and it was a piano from 1890. It is a really cheap solution for people that cannot import oversized tuning pins. It cost me about 4 dollars to tight the entire piano to A=440

Link here: http://youtu.be/yMxJt4E5l7o


Edited by Maximillyan (01/27/14 12:29 AM)
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#2247731 - 03/17/14 12:46 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Loren D]
Maximillyan Offline
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Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
3 years ago Max was banned at forum "Classic". But a forum moderator writes about Max as stupid upstart. Who gave him that right?
A controversy starts on a forum especially clearly when someone is not too conscious of itself in the craft or overestimate of itself begins to conduct their own line.
Bright example, corrugated cardboard


#64 17.06.2013, 13:20 ALEXY

http://www.forumklassika.ru/showthread.php?t=93456&page=7


Edited by Maximillyan (03/17/14 12:55 AM)
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#2249344 - 03/20/14 08:12 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Loren D]
Raskaa Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/14/13
Posts: 1
Dear Max,

I read your posts about cardboard amd i think that this is not effective.
1) Because this is not for long period and not relible.
2) what is a reason of repairing salvage piano?


Regards,
Akylbek


Edited by BB Player (03/20/14 08:58 AM)
Edit Reason: Personal comment deleted

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#2249351 - 03/20/14 08:27 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Loren D]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7887
Loc: France
AKylbek, you should edit your post.

Attacks on the aspect of someone are unacceptable.

ABout the longevity of those shimming process, what we want is gaining resiliency and tightness, from old wood that is soft because the elasticity have migrated from around the pin to father regions.

Possibly the holding is not that long, did yoiu test that ?

Actually if one knows how to stabilize a piano, no need to have extremly tight pins. If they can be braked and set firm enough it works.
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#2249443 - 03/20/14 11:57 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Loren D]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
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Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4215
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
Here is the Russian forum thread translated to English.

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ru&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.forumklassika.ru%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D97501


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#2250240 - 03/22/14 12:05 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Raskaa]
Maximillyan Offline
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Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Raskaa
Dear Max,

I read your posts about cardboard amd i think that this is not effective.
1) Because this is not for long period and not relible.
2) what is a reason of repairing salvage piano?


Regards,
Akylbek

Hi,Akylbek
In both your points negative of a relation to the cardboard is the key to a understanding of a problem.
Because a cardboard used for clunker piano. Yes, I agree with the outside it looks barbaric. I'm believe it is not costly and effectively sometimes.
Are you Kazakh man or Kirghiz because your name Akylbek? Now it's method using cardboard shim there are in the former Soviet Union, I know
Regards,Max
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#2250244 - 03/22/14 12:10 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Olek]
Maximillyan Offline
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Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Olek

1 Attacks on the aspect of someone are unacceptable.

2 Possibly the holding is not that long, did yoiu test that ?

3 If they can be braked and set firm enough it works.

Thanks,Isaac.Thank you very much for your view
Regards,Max
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#2250328 - 03/22/14 06:02 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Loren D]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7887
Loc: France
many say that the wrap of sanding material on a strong support are efficient "foot wrap" I am unsure of the material used, linen sanding cloth may not be firm enough. polyester back or other nylon are may be the ones.

My thought is we need something hard to reinforce the soft woo that is around the tuning pin in the hole, so the resiliency of the block, locate farther, can became a little active again (the foot wrap being more a transmission between pin an farther wood in the block.
Just a theory. sanding material ((aluminium oxyde, etc) is not compressible.

Some colophon added or a product that help with friction too (why not Max cardboard, if that is the case). could be tested, making a sandwich with one composite that reinforce soft wood,allow the pin to recreate a thread (if any still there on the pin) and one that help with friction (I do not believe that nylon or polyester is that good for friction).

Not sure it will be possible to screw a pin without tearing the sandwich but you may get the idea.

Pins are renewed because of the block wear but also because the thread on the pin disappear in time, new thread are then more efficient (assuming the pin is round -not oval) enough quality, expensive, unfortunately)











Edited by Olek (03/22/14 06:04 AM)
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#2250415 - 03/22/14 10:38 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Olek]
Maximillyan Offline
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Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Olek
could be tested, making a sandwich with one composite that reinforce soft wood,allow the pin to recreate a thread (if any still there on the pin) and one that help with friction (I do not believe that nylon or polyester is that good for friction).

Not sure it will be possible to screw a pin without tearing the sandwich but you may get the idea.

Isaac , if I understood correctly need to do shim-sandwich. Where a shim-sandwich is something soft wood material around a pin, and the outer side to make of a harder material. In theory it is good, but it is necessary to make practical experience. I am afraid that when screwing it, as you write sandwich may be tearing .
But if the hole is huge and has an oval shape, why not to be?
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#2277338 - 05/17/14 05:14 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Loren D]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
indianajo gave link Our Forum for faa2010 . May be he will use a cardboard. I don't know
http://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=54106.0
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#2281176 - 05/26/14 09:31 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Loren D]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Loren D
His method of repairing loose tuning pins by inserting corrugated cardboard, to be precise.

Now, I'm thinking.....what really is a valid reason as to why it wouldn't work? I understand that the cardboard will eventually disintegrate, but it will take many, many movements of the pin before that would happen. In other words, years of tunings.

Second....let's say it does disintegrate. It's still leaving the fiber in the hole between it and the pin.

I know it seems like an unorthodox repair that a lot of us just summarily dismissed, but when really thinking about it, I'm not sure I can come up with a real reason why it wouldn't work.

Many repairs we take for granted today were unorthodox at one time (CA glue in piano repair, for instance).

So.....?

Today marks exactly 2 years , how do you wrote this post . We can not speak objectively " cardboard " is good or bad?
I also do not know the exact answer . Many Russian-speaking people write to me that this used metod. In some cases it works.
Over the years I have done a lot. I own forces to trying to help the laity to do their pianos service in my city. Recently I starting feel myself growth of a piano tuning craft proper . I hope that my clients also.
All this was due to a help our forum.
Dear Loren D , I express my gratitude to you personally . I wish you good health and well-being.
Regards, Max from Kazakhstan
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#2281995 - 05/27/14 08:37 PM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Maximillyan]
Strings & Wood Offline


Gold member until Dec. 2012


Registered: 05/22/08
Posts: 1839
Loc: USA
I have read some of this thread, but not all of it.
I am wondering if anyone has tried pine tar or rosin as a source of renewed grip between pin and wood. It seems to me, as a "natural" choice. It is the grip of choice in the Major Leagues.
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#2282064 - 05/28/14 12:57 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Strings & Wood]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Strings & Wood
I have read some of this thread, but not all of it.
I am wondering if anyone has tried pine tar or rosin as a source of renewed grip between pin and wood. It seems to me, as a "natural" choice. It is the grip of choice in the Major Leagues.

Hi,Strings & Wood
Thank you for reading it's topic and that you trying to understand the problem. For me it is very important. But there is a huge gap between the understanding of the problems of a loose pin piano and a practices. If should you read here you will find that many of the technicians wrote about the possibility use a chalk, a clay and a rosin. They are use such materials some technicians to rub a pin before it's installing in a pinblock
However, important for us only positive result. Your suggestion to use " pine resin or rosin " is allowed to be used in practice. But how? If we removed the pin then poured the liquid pine tar into the hole , the question " how to pour it here ? ",
" To Pour the entire circumference of the hole , or only selectively on the edge of a hole? ". If we shall hammer a pin immediately after pouring , it is possible to fill the resin of a voids and microcracks . But very great friction between the hole and the pin is bad for the tuner's job . If shall screwing it's resin is also bad because excess resin is expelled from both edges of the hole and then it is part of the " freezes " in the rear wall . This will lead to the fact that it is impossible to adjust the pin, I think so. If you give the resin to dry it's and then shall hammering a pin so the resin from hammer blows it's collapsing and ruin the wood hole more. I feels so much doubt in these experiments use of a liquid pine tar in pinblocke of a piano. But this is only my subjective opinion. To say "FOR" and "AGAINST" can creating experience only.
"Natural selection in the Major League Leagues " any tree resin is only nice fairy tale , I think so , because have need practice.
Regards, Max
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