Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Teachers Forum HANON exercises is a waste of time...?

It's impossible to play a keyboard instrument without using forearm rotation. Understanding it's use is another matter.

As for the photo, well it was meant to illustrate the opposite of what the hand should look like. She was a wonderful artist; I studied baroque interpretation with one of her students. Do we know if her hand felt the way it looked? I wonder...

This is for another time, but I am convinced that people are taught "out of" doing what is natural, at least in many cases. Think only of the old "balance a coin on the hand while playing" idea. How WRONG can any concept be?

Did you watch the video? Normally such severe curvature would give me a tense feeling. For instance, when I watch Gould play, it makes me feel uncomfortable. Solokov is another who makes me cringe. I love his playing, but the way he achieves it makes me feel very uncomfortable.

But I did not get that feeling with Landowska. She looked utterly at ease, totally natural. And again, she was about 75. Her BODY did not look 75. If she taught as well as she played, I would wager that her students did not necessarily play as she did. No good teacher fails to take into account individual differences in body and hand.

It is quite possible for someone who doesn't know what he is doing and has a poor understanding of the body (or is afraid to use it) to do weird stuff. If you don't have a competent teacher to observe and guide you, and especially if you are self-taught, then if you do weird stuff while playing varied things you may get into some poor habits and maybe injure yourself a little bit. But if you do an exercise where you are repeating the same motions over and over, the risk of injury or at least quite ingrained habits is much greater. I am writing as a student and have a t-shirt to sell. I LOVE repetitive exercises when there is something that I want to get solid by doing it over and over, provided that I'm not doing something freakish without knowing it. I know it does not have to be perfect, but if it is off track and going in the direction of harmful, I want to be redirected. While I was forced to work on my own I stayed away from repetitive things for that reason.

I have only today re-read the first two sentences of his preface.

The first is arguable, the second extreme and inaccurate, IMO, perhaps it was right in his day but he seems a bit tough. I can imagine many a frail young thing leaving his house in floods of tears after another difficult and unhappy lesson, I hope I am wrong.

I personally am a huge fan of his exercises, but my goodness, he held some fairly unusual views!

I will also add that I never find the exercises boring because I vary notes to emphasise and speeds and so on.

I have never yet played one exercise to my satisfaction.

I've been using Hanon exercises in my own practicing for the last 6 months, and I have definitely noticed an improvement in my technique, however I suspect, as you mention, I could have had the same (or better) results by spending that 30 min a day playing Mozart or Haydn sonatas!

I've always had a lot of tension in my ulnar nerve, which creates that "british pinky" sticking up in the air when I'm not relaxed. I use Hanon to concentrate on staying relaxed while playing quick passages. Sometimes I have to slow it right down before my pinky finger can relax, and then I will speed it back up again.

I can do the same type of practicing with my sonatas (and I do), but I have to admit that sometimes it's nice to just be brainless and play Hanon.

Yes, I've seen L. play. It makes my hands ache. Notice how she pulls her fingers up and away from the keyboard and holds them there. This takes considerable effort, an effort that works against her intention, which is to put the key down. "Dear, my teacher would say, the piano is down. We only go up in order to come down." I suspect this approach comes from playing the old harpsichords with the shortened key, requiring the fingers to be curved in order to avoid the "black" keys. But her music making is exemplary.

You are right about students being unwittingly misguided. Given half a chance, the body will choose a natural movement over an unnatural one. Stretching and pulling to extremes are not natural in piano playing.

I agree that Hanon is an extremely useful tool when use properly. My university piano professor had me used Hanon to focus on developing knuckle support. These exercises are the perfect repetition to be able to play something and yet not have to worry about what notes are coming, thus leaving the performer with the ability to focus on knuckle support! I went from collapsing knuckles to almost perfect knuckle support when I played.

Use it for specific purposes and they will prove to be worthwhile.

"Ask not what Hanon can do for you, but what you can do with Hanon."

Or something.

I had a thought on this subject the other day, when teaching a recent late-intermediate transfer student. I had avoided using Hanon with him, so far, because he came to me already suffering with some RSI. Now he has settled down, I showed him the first couple of exercises, and we both agreed that they could be tremendously useful to him, so long as he is careful.

I came to the conclusion that the question isn't so much "Should I do Hanon's exercises?" but rather "Can I play Hanon's exercises properly, and if not, why not?".

I don't mean the entire set, either - even No.1 is incredibly revealing of fundamental technique. The point being, that any student of this level *ought* to be able to play the first exercise at a decent, even tempo, with good hand-shape and posture, consistent tone, clean legato and good L/R coordination. If they can't, then there is good reason to practise said exercise until they can, IMO.

Okay, I'll bite. What will the student have accomplished when he/she's perfected the exercise that he couldn't have accomplished in repertoire, say Mozart K. 284, mm 7-8, for example?

I find that Hanon is useful because the student doesn't have to concentrate on reading or rhythm. They memorize the exercise and can be fully attentive to the technical gesture they are trying to learn -- what it looks like, what it feels like. It becomes automatic more quickly and can, therefore, be applied in the repertoire more efficiently.

There are so many other considerations when you are working with repertoire. I use Hanon primarily with transfer students who have had inadequate technical instruction. I don't use it at all with students who begin with me because I build in those gestures right from the start.

Nicely put. I use it for the same purpose...especially with brand new students who stumble trying to remember the fingering for a scale, and are absolutely nowhere near able to play an etude or repertoire for technique improvement.

@NeilOS

Nothing to add to what Minniemay and rocket88 have so eloquently put, as they both echo my exact thoughts on the subject.

My neck is taking sore, as I watch, once again, as the ping pong ball is batted furiously from one side of the Hanon table to the other. Talk about a way to acquire an RSI! And for what.

Most of the assertions taken up really could, legitimately, be argued on either side except for the screaming caution to ignore the nonsense about 'lifting the fingers high,' for that is outmoded and outright dangerous. I could chime in on some aspects, but I don't know that the topic needs a couple more pages.

Well... maybe, about strength and endurance. The finger and arms, you know, are not the only muscles put in play, by play. Or playing; practicing. Think of the spine, the shoulders, the belly, the neck, the legs, the butt. Where would we be as performers without them! And the brain--- it tires from use, and from concentration; it acquires stamina from exercise.

The book(s) go(es) beyond mere finger exercises. The author--- actually, as far as I can make out, Hanon was as much a compiler of already-existing technical drills as a composer of them--- specifically recommended the book for people who have been away from the piano for awhile, or for people who have lacked breadth and wish to advance in technique. Taking it for a whole lifetime would be like eating spinach three meals a day for life. As good for us as it might be...

Do the first twenty of Hanon and then move onto Dohnanyi. That built up my piano muscles fast!

Dinu Lipati could get kicked in the groin, blindfolded, and then drink half a bottle of tequila and.....

He would still wipe Lisitsa, Previn, Arrau and all those guys off the keyboard!

So would Art Tatum!

Or, as in the case of Dohnanyi, ripped the muscles right out of your hands.

Can you describe the technical gestures they are trying to learn? What do you tell them if they can't play the exercise the way you think it should be played? Do you tell them to keep practicing until they get it or can you show them the techniques they need? If you can show them the techniques here, then why not in music? Are you saying they couldn't quickly memorize 2 measures in a Mozart sonata that contains a similar passage (K. 284)? I don't mean to sound critical and you don't need to answer these questions for me, only for yourself. If you're satisfied with what you are doing and don't want to look further, so be it.

Figures similar to those in Hanon occur very rarely in piano solo repertoire. That is, figures with parallel patterns. Of course, the shapes occur often in separate hands and can be taught that way. I learned about shaping, for example, in K. 333 when I was already advanced. But students can learn this in preparatory pieces, too. I sometimes copy the few measures that I want the student to focus on, showing them what the techniques are and how to practice them. (The parallel figures similar to those found in Hanon can appear sometimes in concertos and collaborative sonatas, particularly Beethoven "Spring" and the C minor violin sonatas, the Trout Quintet and other chamber works. )

I fear that teaching Hanon as you describe is an avoidance technique. Unless you feel that Hanon is needed for strength training or endurance (I hope not), then I urge you to think through your approach in more detail. It's hard for me to justify spending precious time learning X, when what I want to play is Y. Student practice time is limited.

Rotation, circular wrist motions, efficiency of movement, alignment



I've never had the experience where the student, after me demonstrating the gesture, could not reproduce it. The exercise, when they follow through on it, becomes a reflexive action. Some repetition is necessary.



Of course they could, but Hanon is simpler. I generally teach it by rote. I don't have to pull out a score and it keeps the focus better. I have taught and still do teach technique right in the repertoire, but I find Hanon to be a real shortcut.




Neither do scales, at least the way most of us teach them, but we still teach them.

I'm teaching the principles of gesture that go beyond any one specific piece of repertoire.




I happen to find it more direct and universally applicable. I've been using it for almost 30 years and have great success.

This is important. I can see about a zillion wrong assumptions being made here. I can't see what you teach, and you can't see what I teach. The demonstration factor is HUGE. So much of what we see as we learn to play efficiently comes from what our teachers show us, and I continue to stress that much of it is non-verbal and intuitive.

We SHOULD assume that the teachers we talk to are teaching efficient, practical things that work until somehow it becomes crystal clear that something is wrong.

If anyone insists, for instance, on playing patterns and scales with a coin balanced on the top of the and, my assumption is that great damage is being done. But other than seeing something that is obviously so wrong, I try to give people the benefit of the doubt.

Here is just one example that will not come across in words:

It is my natural way of playing to use a minimum of movement. I would use Rubenstein as a model of this, in his later years. But when students are stiff, I recommend to them to MOVE in ways that are simply not necessary for me, and if those movements result in their playing in a more relaxed way, lead to greater facility, more control, etc., that's the right thing to do.

I don't know why this thread is still alive. I don't like Hanon. I will probably never teach it (the exercises), but to then go to the next level and say that Hanon is not a good thing when taught in a different way by other teachers is close-minded, arrogant and rigid.

Hanon is a tool. Why shouldn't we all assume that you use this tool wisely?

I teach more like you, most likely, than like Minniemay. But the tone of your post is that MM is satisfied with what she is doing and does not want to look further.

That may be accurate, or it may be totally unfair. Instead of telling other people why what they are doing is wrong, or may be wrong, or is less good than what you believe to be a better way, why not just describe what you do?

And I may need to be careful about that too - I can get rather argumentative on bad days when I am working hard to make a point.

My own idea, which I think is similar to yours: for every instance where both hands play scales, four octaves, or even a couple, as they are presented in traditional teaching, is relatively rare.

On one hand we can mention the nasty scale section of the Tchaikovsky Piano Concerto right before the end of the last movement, but then we run into the chicken/egg question: practice scales for years to play such passages? Or study such passages as their OWN self-teaching exercises?

In general I stress hands separate practice of scale patterns for the simple reason that - as you mentioned - both hands are so often called upon to play different patterns.