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#1908949 - 06/05/12 05:34 PM Re: Kawai K8 fell over during delivery [Re: Smiles466]
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
i would hire a lawyer maybe,, and insist the piano be taken back.. i believe you paid for a working piano.. right?

REFUSE TO ACCEPT IT.
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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#1908951 - 06/05/12 05:39 PM Re: Kawai K8 fell over during delivery [Re: Smiles466]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21299
Loc: Oakland
Let us not leap to conclusions. There may be no seriously damage to the piano. Pianos are pretty tough, and they do not fall as fast as you might think. (I know by experience, and when it happened, I broke its fall by letting it fall on top of me. I just ended up embarrassed, because I could not get it off me by myself.)

Pedal rods can come undone in a normal move. They can be replaced fairly easily. That is all that we know is wrong with the piano.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#1908995 - 06/05/12 07:09 PM Re: Kawai K8 fell over during delivery [Re: Smiles466]
ventil Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/15/11
Posts: 145
Loc: TX
Smiles,

My $0.02, based on personal experience: send it back - do not delay.

A very similar situation happened to me about 6 months ago, upon delivery of my new grand. Swivel wheel dolly slipped as they were setting it up and the piano dropped 10"-12" to the floor. A 6' grand can leave a nice dent in a solid oak floor, let me tell you.

Fortunately, my dealer, who also owned the delivery company, handled it with utmost integrity. They took all the initiative in making it right, before I even asked. Here's what they did.

First, the delivery crew immediately loaded the piano on the truck and took it back. Their tech (actually a respected contract RPT, but "theirs" nonetheless) checked it out very carefully during the next two weeks. He found one minor problem, unrelated to the fall.

In the meantime, a new piano of the same make/model/finish had arrived at their store. They then set up both pianos side by side in the showroom, asked me to play them both and select the one I preferred. The second delivery went off without a hitch.

They also reimbursed me for the floor repair, within 2 days of faxing over the floor guy's invoice.

So...send it back. Yes, it's a pain, but sometimes bad things happen to good pianos. A good dealer will take care of you.


Edited by ventil (06/05/12 07:16 PM)
_________________________
David M. Boothe, CAS

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#1909066 - 06/05/12 09:39 PM Re: Kawai K8 fell over during delivery [Re: BDB]
TX-Dennis Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/05
Posts: 4126
Loc: Texas
Originally Posted By: BDB
Yes, but you are in Texas. The entire state is flatter than Oakland! Believe me, you do not want swivel wheels when there are hills.


Of course, Texas is flat. For example:

[img]http://www.flickr.com/photos/tx-dennis/7297019598/in/photostream[/img]

[img]http://www.flickr.com/photos/tx-dennis/6984660838/in/photostream[/img]

[img]http://www.flickr.com/photos/tx-dennis/7130714481/in/photostream[/img]

[img]http://www.flickr.com/photos/tx-dennis/6842468436/in/photostream[/img]

[img]http://www.flickr.com/photos/tx-dennis/6988584179/in/photostream[/img]

[img]http://www.flickr.com/photos/tx-dennis/6988578763/in/photostream[/img]

[img]http://www.flickr.com/photos/tx-dennis/6988571993/in/photostream[/img]

I shot all these photos in Texas in the last couple of months.

EDIT: guess I can't embed photos from flickr . . . . They are clickable, though. frown


Edited by TX-Dennis (06/05/12 09:44 PM)
_________________________
Dennis

flickr


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#1909084 - 06/05/12 10:32 PM Re: Kawai K8 fell over during delivery [Re: Smiles466]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21299
Loc: Oakland
Looks like the yards of the houses across the street.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#1909110 - 06/05/12 11:25 PM Re: Kawai K8 fell over during delivery [Re: Smiles466]
Furtwangler Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 1523
Loc: Danville, California
How 'bout this?



Texas Hill Country

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#1909115 - 06/05/12 11:31 PM Re: Kawai K8 fell over during delivery [Re: Smiles466]
Furtwangler Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 1523
Loc: Danville, California
Here's another'n:


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#1909161 - 06/06/12 01:43 AM Re: Kawai K8 fell over during delivery [Re: Eric Gloo]
jivemutha Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/05/06
Posts: 528
Loc: Portland, OR
Originally Posted By: Eric Gloo
Originally Posted By: jivemutha
When they recently had my new 5'8" grand (Yammy C2) moved up a difficult tight U-shaped stair case, out of their own pockets (the move was thrown into the deal) they hired FIVE guys to do the move


You can be sure that you, not they, paid for the move. smile


Actually it may not be quite what you think. Of course they factored "a move" into the equation before agreeing to a price. However, the assessment that led to upping the number of movers to 5 came after the dollar figure was agreed to. So arguably a piece of the additional cost came from what was to have been their profit.

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#1909164 - 06/06/12 02:08 AM Re: Kawai K8 fell over during delivery [Re: BDB]
Smiles466 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/15/12
Posts: 40
Loc: Texas
Originally Posted By: BDB
Let us not leap to conclusions. There may be no seriously damage to the piano. Pianos are pretty tough, and they do not fall as fast as you might think. (I know by experience, and when it happened, I broke its fall by letting it fall on top of me. I just ended up embarrassed, because I could not get it off me by myself.)

Pedal rods can come undone in a normal move. They can be replaced fairly easily. That is all that we know is wrong with the piano.


While it is true that pianos are tough, it still bothered the heck out of me that it felled over. The dealer kept saying "oh piano get move/ship all the time so they are okay" I kept having to say "moving/shipping is different from falling over". They gave me a name of a local RPT, who was referred by the Kawai US main technical guy, to come and check it out. It turned out she used to work with him. She came tonight and spent almost 3 hours taking it apart inspecting the entire piano. She was very impressed with the build and quality of the piano, of course smile Anyway, her conclusion was that this piano is in great shape/condition, the bridges, soundboard, rails, rods, pedals are all okay. She said all the inside seems undamaged. She did some minor tuning; however, she wanted to do a full tune up within two weeks to make sure all is right with the piano and another tuning in 3 months. From talking to her, I realize that she rarely see a K8 in this area; she is mainly a Steinway and Yamaha person. I have scheduled with another RPT on my own and will have him give it a once over tomorrow to see what he has to say.

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#1909166 - 06/06/12 02:10 AM Re: Kawai K8 fell over during delivery [Re: Furtwangler]
Smiles466 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/15/12
Posts: 40
Loc: Texas
Originally Posted By: Furtwangler
Here's another'n:





I did my post-grad in San Antonio. Texas hill country is beautiful. I always love driving around the area. Thanks for sharing the pic.

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#1909235 - 06/06/12 08:03 AM Re: Kawai K8 fell over during delivery [Re: ventil]
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10349
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
Originally Posted By: ventil
Smiles,

My $0.02, based on personal experience: send it back - do not delay.

A very similar situation happened to me about 6 months ago, upon delivery of my new grand. Swivel wheel dolly slipped as they were setting it up and the piano dropped 10"-12" to the floor. A 6' grand can leave a nice dent in a solid oak floor, let me tell you.

Fortunately, my dealer, who also owned the delivery company, handled it with utmost integrity. They took all the initiative in making it right, before I even asked. Here's what they did.

First, the delivery crew immediately loaded the piano on the truck and took it back. Their tech (actually a respected contract RPT, but "theirs" nonetheless) checked it out very carefully during the next two weeks. He found one minor problem, unrelated to the fall.

In the meantime, a new piano of the same make/model/finish had arrived at their store. They then set up both pianos side by side in the showroom, asked me to play them both and select the one I preferred. The second delivery went off without a hitch.

They also reimbursed me for the floor repair, within 2 days of faxing over the floor guy's invoice.

So...send it back. Yes, it's a pain, but sometimes bad things happen to good pianos. A good dealer will take care of you.


This is the right course of action for the dealer. This is the right course of action for you.

Just my opinion, of course.
_________________________
Grotrian 192 #156455

https://www.youtube.com/user/dhfeld/videos

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#1909264 - 06/06/12 09:07 AM Re: Kawai K8 fell over during delivery [Re: Smiles466]
Cmajor Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/03/11
Posts: 229
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Smiles466
Unfortunately I paid with a check because they did not want to take a credit card for such a big payment and especially when they gave me a really nice price i.e. almost $3K less than the local guy. If the whole thing were on a credit card then yes I would have put a stop to it.

"Most people do not like controversy, or confrontation/conflict, myself included. If you can muster up the courage, contact the dealer again and tell them you do not want to follow the “let’s wait and see what the PRT says” approach. Tell them you insist on having another piano delivered to your home and to pick that one up and take it back. Then, the dealer can have it inspected and decide if he wants to resell it as new to an unsuspecting buyer."

I will tell him this. Thanks Rick.


They didn't want to pay the percentage points to the CC company. Selling for the lowest price requires some cuts in services... it's inevitable.

For what it's worth I will share a bit of knowledge I got from my general contractor family background...

Never take the lowest bid. Never take the highest bid. Toss both of those in the trash then evaluate the middle bids and go with one of those. You may think you're paying a bit more but, in the end, you are saving money and aggravation.

Most of us tend to forget we have cameras and recorders in our cell phones. A picture of the piano on it's side would have been worth the price of admission. I am so sorry you have to go through all this unpleasantness. I wish for you only the best outcome.

If these folks fail to make good on their mistake you would be doing all of us a favor by posting the name of the dealer so others may avoid them.

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#1909324 - 06/06/12 11:12 AM Re: Kawai K8 fell over during delivery [Re: Cmajor]
monads Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/23/12
Posts: 161
Loc: CA
Originally Posted By: Cmajor
For what it's worth I will share a bit of knowledge I got from my general contractor family background...

Never take the lowest bid. Never take the highest bid. Toss both of those in the trash then evaluate the middle bids and go with one of those. You may think you're paying a bit more but, in the end, you are saving money and aggravation.


100% true! And one should have 3 bids at a minimum. I can tell you I did not go with the lowest bid for my piano, and opted for the middle bid.

Originally Posted By: Cmajor
Most of us tend to forget we have cameras and recorders in our cell phones. A picture of the piano on it's side would have been worth the price of admission.


Photos would've been nice. I'm sure they were all in shock after witnessing the fall.

Originally Posted By: Cmajor
If these folks fail to make good on their mistake you would be doing all of us a favor by posting the name of the dealer so others may avoid them.


They're actually a nice dealer. I provided Smiles with a list of local dealers to check out. He ended up going with this particular one. I imagine everyone was trying to make a deal, dealer gave an unbeatable low price probably not making much profit in the end. Now the move goes bad and it's on the dealer to fix. What a mess. Smiles probably shouldn't have accepted the piano after it fell. Unless he contributed to the fall?

Best not to facilitate any piano mover with the actual handling/moving of your piano to avoid these types of situations.
_________________________
My music_website at http://www.OdysseyofaG.com

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#1909395 - 06/06/12 12:53 PM Re: Kawai K8 fell over during delivery [Re: Smiles466]
Rickster Online   content


Registered: 03/25/06
Posts: 8422
Loc: Georgia, USA
Please forgive me, but I’m still more sympathetic to Smiles than I am the dealer or the movers. And what about the damaged floor/tile?

The piano may well be okay and no real harm done… but this experience will always be in the back of Smiles mind and the joy of buying his new piano is somewhat diminished.

I wish the best outcome possible for all concerned.

Rick

_________________________
Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel

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#1909398 - 06/06/12 12:58 PM Re: Kawai K8 fell over during delivery [Re: Furtwangler]
akita Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/25/12
Posts: 54
Wow Furtwangler. Did not know such a beautiful green, hilly scenery existed in Texas!

Although friends from Austin said it was nice "around there", but never seen a photo.

when I hear Texas, I think of tumble weeds and roadrunners on a dusty interstate stretching for miles without even a gas station in sight...

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#1909418 - 06/06/12 01:20 PM Re: Kawai K8 fell over during delivery [Re: Rickster]
akita Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/25/12
Posts: 54
Originally Posted By: Rickster

The piano may well be okay and no real harm done… but this experience will always be in the back of Smiles mind and the joy of buying his new piano is somewhat diminished.



Piano falls flat, and no one worries about a cracked soundboard, etc? Even if the crack isn't visible, there is high likelihood of some microcracks that is not visible to the naked eye that can eventually propagate and separate. not to mention all those strings i high tension... I just shudder to think!!! (or may be I'm just overreacting..)

Are pianos really that tough to survive this sort of thing?

My piano movers had two metal frame dollies.. each with humongous rubber wheels (cushioned) with big, puffy rubber pads on the flatbed area not to scratch the piano. To get it up the concrete stairs (20 steps!) they first tipped the piano onto one dolly so you can see the entire bottom of the piano (sight I've never seen before...). When they did that, my heart stopped. They obviously knew what theyw ere doing, but I was a nervous wreck (they put the piano on its side on one dolly, then put another dolly on the stairs, and then lowered the piano on its bottom on the dolly on the stairs.. so they don't have to lift one side of the piano to get it on the incline).

only thing I was a bit miffed is that when they got to the top of the landing, they let the piano down on the concrete (the dollly got stuck so they had to get the piano off the stairs first and then re-position.. no way to get the blanket on the concrete patio since the guys had their hands full). so the brass casters on the piano got pitted :-( but since the piano is on a shag carpet, it's essentially buried, so I can't see it.. so i haven't thought about it much after delivery..

But to see the piano actually go over on its side.. I'd start crying (or screaming), and reaching for the phone to call the dealer in hysterics...

I'm no technician, but once dropped, I would opt for a brand new replacement piano. there may be microcracks you can't see that won't show up until years later after the wood has gone through several cycles of swelling/shrinking. My profession is in electronics reliability, and that is one thing we test.. drop it few feet, then go through temperature cycles. it's amazing how things that look fine after the drop, after few thermal expansion/contraction things start cracking and popping off...

Wood is more flexible and fiberous, so may be it doesn't get microcracks... dunno. but I'd be wondering... forever...

perhaps since it was in a shipping crate, it was much better protected (things do get rattled around in those freighters.. no stabilizers like those large cruise ships, so if the wave is high, it goes with it.. believe me.. it's not a mild ride). but the impact would be pretty substantial...

so as someone said, get the serial number (take a photo), and get a new one delivered. The mover's insurance would definitely cover it (assuming they are fully insured...), so the loss shouldn't be to the dealer. and if they take the old one back the same time they deliver your new one, you know you got a new one. 11 years from now you don't want to be wondering if the life of the piano is shorter than what it should be because of the drop..

There is no need to be confrontational about this.. just a simple, "you know.. I've been thinking about this, and I really don't feel comfortable keeping this piano after being dropped like that. I really would like to get a new replacement." Be cordial, friendly, and business-like. MOst of the time, if you're being reasonable, and using a conversational, "please help me" type of approach, things don't get too heated in a situation like this.

the actual delivery guys, who dropped the piano, is another matter.. but you shouldn't be dealing with them directly anyway (unless the moving company is not wise enough to send the same crew to you). You'll be talking to the dealer, who would be talking to the moving company, sooo... very emotionally disconnected.. just a business transaction. so it won't be so uncomfortable.

just my $0.02

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#1909440 - 06/06/12 01:52 PM Re: Kawai K8 fell over during delivery [Re: Smiles466]
re22 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/04/11
Posts: 147
This week my old grand is being moved out and my new one in. If the new piano was dropped I wouldn't have to think twice about sending it back. The piano was a lot of money (for me) and I wouldn't want to risk any hidden damage. Even if the warranty on the piano would cover all the repairs in the future it would just be too much of a risk and a potential headache.

Best of luck to you! Hopefully this gets sorted out quick and easy. Please keep us updated! smile


Edited by re22 (06/06/12 01:52 PM)
_________________________
Private Piano Teacher

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#1909688 - 06/06/12 09:22 PM Re: Kawai K8 fell over during delivery [Re: akita]
TX-Dennis Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/05
Posts: 4126
Loc: Texas
Originally Posted By: akita
Wow Furtwangler. Did not know such a beautiful green, hilly scenery existed in Texas!

Although friends from Austin said it was nice "around there", but never seen a photo.

when I hear Texas, I think of tumble weeds and roadrunners on a dusty interstate stretching for miles without even a gas station in sight...


We've got that, too. And dense forests and miles of beaches, and the second largest canyon in the U. S. (after the Grand Canyon), and 3 of the ten biggest cities in the U. S., and pretty much any other kind of scenery you might want. Texas is a pretty big and diverse place.
_________________________
Dennis

flickr


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#1909690 - 06/06/12 09:27 PM Re: Kawai K8 fell over during delivery [Re: Smiles466]
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
again.. i would not accept a piano that had fallen. in the nicest way.. it's just not an option.. you are in the right.. you deserve a piano that has not fallen down.
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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#1909762 - 06/07/12 12:47 AM Re: Kawai K8 fell over during delivery [Re: re22]
Smiles466 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/15/12
Posts: 40
Loc: Texas
Originally Posted By: re22
The piano was a lot of money (for me) and I wouldn't want to risk any hidden damage. Even if the warranty on the piano would cover all the repairs in the future it would just be too much of a risk and a potential headache.


You are right about that even though I got it at a good price, it was still a pretty good chunk of change wink I sent an email to him, advised him exactly what you and many other wrote, and that I would like to exchange for a new one. Will wait and see what he has to say.


Edited by Smiles466 (06/07/12 12:50 AM)

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#1909865 - 06/07/12 07:39 AM Re: Kawai K8 fell over during delivery [Re: Smiles466]
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
i would save copies of all written correspondence. ... put everything in writing and do not agree to talk over the phone.
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

Top
#1909992 - 06/07/12 12:49 PM Re: Kawai K8 fell over during delivery [Re: Smiles466]
Cmajor Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/03/11
Posts: 229
Loc: USA
This is what they do for a living so we have to assume the dealer knows the risks of running on a razor thin profit margin. The least little thing that goes wrong tilts the whole transaction into the red ink column. Unless they opened their business the prior day, the dealer should have known better. Being nice is nice but now they have to step up and make it right. The delivery agent was obviously inexperienced and ill equipped. This is one of those times when cutting costs comes back to bite you in the butt.

In the family general contracting business, in every branch, and for three generations, has hung a very pertinent cartoon blown up to poster size on the wall of the reception area... it depicts two obviously destitute individuals sitting on a bench feeding the pigeons and one remarks to the other "Yep, we always had work because I was low bidder on every job".

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#1910003 - 06/07/12 01:01 PM Re: Kawai K8 fell over during delivery [Re: Smiles466]
Jeff Clef Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 4414
Loc: San Jose, CA
"...i would save copies of all written correspondence. ... put everything in writing and do not agree to talk over the phone...."

The first part of Apple's advice is spot-on. Practically speaking, you're probably going to have to talk to the seller on the phone. While nothing important should depend solely on a phone conversation, I think it's ok as long as you keep a log with the date and time of the call, name of the person you speak with, and the substance of your conversation. This should be followed up by a letter or e-mail that summarizes what was said.

The main thing is to have an accurate record, to come to a meeting of the minds, and to avoid misunderstandings. Your record should, by the way, include photos of the damage to your home, and an estimate from a vendor of your choice to cover repairs--- the kind of thing an insurance adjuster would want.

It was an unfortunate accident, no more and no less. The seller's and carrier's risk is probably covered to some extent by insurance, and part of the purchase price goes toward funding the overhead of warranty service--- it is not free to the buyer! Don't let the process drag out; an exchange of one brand-new unit for another is a simple matter, compared to repairing or weighing the value of a used piano damaged in shipment.

In the end, the seller will probably retail the piano at a reduced price, or possibly send it out as a rental. I don't think their financial suffering will be very great. The K-8 is a nice upright, and in the end I think you will be very happy... with the 'new' new one.

PS-
And we want to see some pictures, when it gets there. We love pictures of new pianos in their new homes.


Edited by Jeff Clef (06/07/12 01:02 PM)
_________________________
Clef


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#1911219 - 06/09/12 09:47 PM Re: Kawai K8 fell over during delivery [Re: Smiles466]
j&j Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/24/09
Posts: 444
Loc: Southwest
I'm so sorry this happened to you on what should be a joyous day. If the piano dealer hired the movers and you paid $500 for delivery, have the dealer give you another K8. The dealer and the delivery company can settle on who pays who for supplying you with an undamaged new piano. That's what you bought, that's what you should get! And document and record everything as Apple suggested.

Good Luck!
_________________________
J & J
Yahama C3 PE
Casio Privia PX-330
"Inspiration exists, but it has to find you working." Pablo Picasso

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#1936325 - 08/02/12 12:16 PM Re: Kawai K8 fell over during delivery [Re: Smiles466]
monads Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/23/12
Posts: 161
Loc: CA
Any update to this sad story?
_________________________
My music_website at http://www.OdysseyofaG.com

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#1936579 - 08/02/12 09:10 PM Re: Kawai K8 fell over during delivery [Re: monads]
Rafterman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/10/12
Posts: 407
Loc: New York
Yes I want the ending as well! (Another K8 concerned owner here!)

I bet it turned out good.

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#1936819 - 08/03/12 10:20 AM Re: Kawai K8 fell over during delivery [Re: Smiles466]
Jeff Clef Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 4414
Loc: San Jose, CA
I hope so; if it hadn't, I would imagine the OP would still be complaining.
_________________________
Clef


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#1937113 - 08/03/12 10:34 PM Re: Kawai K8 fell over during delivery [Re: Smiles466]
pianovoce Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/06/10
Posts: 75
Loc: New Orleans, LA
A little negative Yelp review goes a long way these days, as well...

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#1937393 - 08/04/12 05:47 PM Re: Kawai K8 fell over during delivery [Re: Smiles466]
KurtZ Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/13/10
Posts: 852
Loc: The Heart of Screenland
Yelp is a corrupt joke. Anyone who relies on it to chose anything more serious than a hot dog stand might as well seek the advice of a fortune teller.

Kurt
_________________________
I just wanted to be just "a" guy. That's enough of a life.

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#1937420 - 08/04/12 07:04 PM Re: Kawai K8 fell over during delivery [Re: KurtZ]
Jonathan Alford Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/10/11
Posts: 358
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: KurtZ
Yelp is a corrupt joke. Anyone who relies on it to chose anything more serious than a hot dog stand might as well seek the advice of a fortune teller.

Kurt


I agree - I have left positive feedback on experiences in the past only to discover my feedback has been deleted - leaving just negative feedback about some retailers. Seems Yelp has other motives other than providing truthful reviews.

Jonathan

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Mason & Hamlin BB with Live Performance
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07/31/14 12:50 PM
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compositional methods
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