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#1827589 - 01/19/12 01:36 AM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso]
erichlof Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 370
Thanks for the detailed explanation Alfredo. I understand now what you are trying to accomplish. I must say that I have not tried this "charging" technique before. It is very interesting and I might give it a try on an older piano that I have access to. Always something to learn! smile

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#1910029 - 06/07/12 01:46 PM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1072
Loc: Sicily - Italy

#1909239 - June 06, 2012 12:10 PM Circular Harmonic System (C.HA.S) Tuning

Weiyan Offline
Full Member

Registered: October 05, 2011
Posts: 362
Loc: Hong Kong

I am practicing CHAS tuning with the help of Issac.

I am using Afredo Capurso's Procedur.

This is my exercise today.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-6-june-2012
M3 progression

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-6-june-2012
Fourths progression

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-6-june-2012
Fifths progression

C-G / D-G, either one of these intervals too fast.

Suggestions are welcome.

Thanks you.

- . - . - . -

Hi Weiyan,

Few words in general:

1 - remember that any pitch can move a little bit at any time;
2 - after you expand your octave, you will be able to countercheck all notes from A3 to A4 and correct them even more;
3 - always relate (in your mind) one interval to another one, make a relation between intervals, never think that you are tuning one single interval;
4 - at this stage, do not look for perfection.

First consider (and tune) four notes, A4, A3, D and E (or E and D); you will need to evaluate these 4 notes (five intervals) together, evaluate their relation, because the octave, two 4ths and two 5ths will allow you to set the premises.

Leave A4 a little bit sharp (high in pitch), A3-A4 must be very very little wide, you would say it is just, beat-less, but you must be able to notice that it has some life. Play your octave and, before the sound goes off, you must be able to notice that it is going to "open", it want to grow in a sort of m…muuuuuoooooaaaa, it is not still/dead.

Tune D4 to A3 - That is a 4th, so sharpen D from just, find 1 bps (not more) and make it, if you can, just a little bit slower or leave it like that. In your rec, it is too just.

Check D4-A4, this 5th must sound almost just, very little life in it. In your rec., it is too narrow.

Tune E4 to A3 - That's a 5th, so make it narrow by lowering E4 from just. In your rec. it was quite good.

Check E4-A4, this 4th must be wide, around 2 bps. In your rec. it was too just, you needed A4 a bit higher.

So you have:

A3-D4 (4th) almost 1 bps (in your rec. it was too just)
D4-A4 (5th) almost just (in your rec. it was too narrow)
A3-E4 (5th) with a very slow beat (in your rec. (say for now) it was good
E4-A4 (4th) faster than A3-D4, almost 2 bps (in your rec. it was too just)

In bps order (from faster to slower):

E4-A4 (4th) faster than A3-D4, almost 2 bps (in your rec. it was too just)
A3-D4 (4th) almost 1 bps (in your rec. it was too just)
A3-E4 (5th) with a very slow beat (in your rec. (say for now) it was good)
D4-A4 (5th) almost just (in your rec. it was too narrow)
A3-A4 (in your rec. it was too just)

Please tell me if my English allows you to follow. If you like, make a rec. with only these five intervals. Same recording speed and method.

Regards, a.c.
.
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alfredo

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#1910153 - 06/07/12 06:11 PM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7882
Loc: France
Hello ALfredo, you say :

Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso


Of course, avoid practicing on a piano that you want to preserve.

To go through steps 1-2-3 will take one or two seconds; steps 4 and 5 may require more time/seconds, depending on the pin. Few more seconds for steps 6 and 7.

All this to say that many beginners are very concerned about the pitch, and many of them go for the pitch on its own, mainly concentrating on that. But really, in order to hear pitches and beats, after a while, you do not need to concentrate, actually you'll hear all that even if you do not want to. What I concentrate on is the pin's behavior, the amount of torque it can take and how it turns inside the pinblock.

Regards, a.c.



My experience (indeed once the technique is more or less mastered) is that at the contrary, a pianao that tend to show apoor holding and a too smooth pin rotation, will have its grip raised and way more than I was expecting.

I finally wondered if the pin does not get "twisted" some, so its grip get better.
I also noticed that on a really poor piano where the pin slips again and again, making the whole process (un charging, raising very slowly overpulling and torquing back) raise the grip after 3 or 4 times it is done.

There I wondered if when we uncharge then turn (very slowly) we are not reorienting a little the fiber inside the hole, that in the end provides a little more grip.

Naturally I would have think that the more I manipulate the pin in an old tired block, the more it get tired and slippery, but my experience was exactly the opposite.

SO working on any piano to learn the method can be done in my opinion , but care may be taken to respect well the orientation of the tuning lever so to avoid undue stress on the "bed" of the pin (the +-45°-60° part of the hole where the pin is really braked).

Best regards...


Edited by Kamin (06/07/12 06:13 PM)
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#1910266 - 06/07/12 11:20 PM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso]
Weiyan Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/11
Posts: 769
Loc: Hong Kong
Afredo:

Thank you. I can here the beats in the record. Its easier to here beats in record.

For F-A, I feel its too quiet, now confirmed my hearing. Thank you.

Your English is easy to understand, except the word "just". Sometimes its may interpret as correct in ET, sometimes it may be refer to pure interval. If the just is refer to ET, not help to me. I am not trained to tune ET aurally, although had practice ET 4th/5th for a month.

Going to today's practice session.

Thank you..
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#1910371 - 06/08/12 07:52 AM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso]
Weiyan Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/11
Posts: 769
Loc: Hong Kong
This is today's practice.

Tried to correct last tuning, but one note slipped away. So retune from ground.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-octave-8-june-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-8-june-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-8-june-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-8-june-2012

The frequency of this octave:

A3: 220.1
A#3: 232
B3: 246.7
C4: 256.9
C#4: 276
D4: 294.3
D#4: 308.8
E4: 329.6
F4: 347.3
F#4: 369.7
G4: 390.6
G#4: 413.8
A4: 441.1(Attack is 442)
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#1910378 - 06/08/12 08:09 AM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso]
Weiyan Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/11
Posts: 769
Loc: Hong Kong
Self critique:

Thirds:
A#-D: slow
D-F#: slow
D#-G: fast
F-A: slow

Fourths:
A#-D#: fast
C-F: Fast
E-F: Slower than previous intervals

Fifths:
B-F#: Fast
C-G: Fast
C#-G#: Fast

May be G-E too slow???

thank you for suggestion.
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Ragtime beginner
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#1910398 - 06/08/12 09:21 AM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1072
Loc: Sicily - Italy

Good job, Weiyan.

Honk Kong time is 9.21 pm, I am writing now so that you can read this.

I have played your recs only once, to get an idea. Let's see your first rec (octave).

These are your "base" intervals (Please notice, the second last is not A4-E4 but A3-E4):

A3-A4 - A bit too wide. Listen how you can hear some movement very soon, at the beginning, too soon, you want that to happen a little bit later.
A3-D4 - Too wide. Can you hear 2+ bps?
D4-A4 - Nice. More typical for A3-E4. Make it less narrow.
A3-E4 - Nice.
E4-A4 - Too wide. Can you hear 3+ bps?

Now you can see (next it will be "visualize" in your mind) that:

A4 is too wide for A3 and E4
D4 is too wide for A3
D4-A4 is very close

What can you do?

You put a little bit down (lower in pitch - perhaps with a forte blow) A4 and D4. Also, you want D4 and A4 less narrow, so D4 must go down (in pitch) a bit more than A4.

I will analyze attentively your other recs tomorrow, please tell me if you can follow.

"Just" is referred to beat-less, still, no-beating intervals.

Regards, a.c.
.
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alfredo

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#1910457 - 06/08/12 10:51 AM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso]
Weiyan Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/11
Posts: 769
Loc: Hong Kong
Hi Afredo,

Refresh the browser before switching off the computer, I saw your reply. Thank you.

For counting beats, I have to take more exercise to learn counting beat. I think in CHAS is easier to count beats.

A3-D4: 1bps
E4-A4: 2bps
D4-A4: nearly no beat. In the procedure sheet, its "faint beating". I guess its nearly just.

A3-E4: 1.5 beats / 3s. This is most difficult interval. So I focus on other interval. If the other three interval beats correct, this will be correct.

Counting 1 or 2 bpse is easy to count 3.5 beats in 5 second.

For hearing the beats, its easier with recorded sound. In real tuning session, if stand up in tuning position, the beats are not so clear. When seating down, the beats are clear.

The width of A3-A4 is difficult.

Its good idea to focus on the first octave and the four intervals. Will going on practice tomorrow. Hopefully I had a correct pitch piano to play on Sunday.

Best wishes to all friends here.

Weiyan
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#1910473 - 06/08/12 11:13 AM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso]
Inlanding Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/05/09
Posts: 1681
Loc: Colorado
Hi Alfredo, Weiyan~
Just tuned in to the discussion. I love this stuff!!!

Here's my suggestion. Hope it helps...

As for making A3-A4 slightly wide, compare the beat rate from F2 to each, making A3 beat ever so slightly slower than A4, taking into account you've already set A4 at 440. In a perfect world A3 beats half as fast as A4, so it needs to beat ever so slightly less than half.

Glen

Alfredo, here is a short sample tune I recorded right after a tuning in April. I hope you are doing quite well!
https://www.box.com/s/778175e3b3395ffd8264
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A Bit of YouTube
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#1910516 - 06/08/12 12:47 PM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7882
Loc: France
Say something nice Alfredo wink after one year of tuning I find Glen is at a very good level and find a personal tone. I agree 100% with his unisons and I like the global color.

How did you make that temperament , Glen ?
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#1910578 - 06/08/12 02:47 PM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: Inlanding]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1072
Loc: Sicily - Italy
Hi Glen,

I'm fine, thanks.

I really enjoyed listening to your sample, very nice playing (did you compose that piece?) and nice sound too, I like your sensitivity.

Then you know that if I were to really check a tuning I'd follow a precise procedure all across the keyboard.

It is nice to read about you here.

Regards,

Alfredo
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alfredo

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#1910712 - 06/08/12 07:39 PM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso]
Inlanding Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/05/09
Posts: 1681
Loc: Colorado
Thanks, Alfredo~
Yes, it is an on-the-fly composition - glad you like the music and sound. The idea you think that must mean the tuning is decent, and it is appreciated. I spend a great deal of focus on unisons and octaves, octaves and fifths, and two octaves from the tempered section.

Glen
_________________________

A Bit of YouTube
PTG Associate Member

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#1910766 - 06/08/12 10:03 PM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: Inlanding]
Weiyan Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/11
Posts: 769
Loc: Hong Kong
Inlanding:

Thank you.

I like your song and the tuning. I like the tuning with rich consonant, and the voice is open. How you tune your piano?

For the 3rd/10th checking, Alfredo had not mentioned in the procedure sheet. I think CHAS octave better check by A3-D: 1bps, A3-E4: 1.5bs/3s, E4-A4: 2bps.

Its morning and birds whistle outside. I have to correct yesterday's tuning. Yesterday worked 6 hours on the 12 note. I hope today have time to record some unison tuning.

Have a nice weekend.
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Ragtime beginner
http://weiyanwo.wordpress.com

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#1910771 - 06/08/12 10:12 PM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso]
RichDHill Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 05/10/12
Posts: 10
Loc: Montgomery, Al
I have to chime in on this on. Thanks to Bill Bremmer for his input. I went to Grayson County College for a year to learn to tune by ear and have been tuning for 23 years and have tuned for some pros and non pros and have found the same results. That is, every piano is different, and I try to listen to the 4th and 5th two and three beats from pure (either below or above) and octaves at just over the pure going up the scale and below going down the scale from middle C. All those equations can confuse the ear, (in my opinion)if you tune by ear. If you use an instrument then it may be helpful to follow some equations. After I do the temperament I play a G7, Eb7, A7, and Bb7 to listen to the 6th's and 5th's. If they are too noisy I can adjust. Also I check the thirds and 6th's by them self. I have been successful using this method. Each piano is a challenge and takes time to find the right time to stop moving the string, cause you can't tune out a single strings false beat. Other factors can enter like hammers with deep groves or not striking the strings at the same time. Even a grand that has hammers that can't follow the angle of the strings will sound different than one that does. No equation will help in that kind of problem. The ear is quite unique and will compensate usually with acceptable results for most people.

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#1910775 - 06/08/12 10:24 PM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: Inlanding]
Cinnamonbear Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3925
Loc: Rockford, IL
Originally Posted By: Inlanding
[...] Alfredo, here is a short sample tune I recorded right after a tuning in April. I hope you are doing quite well!
https://www.box.com/s/778175e3b3395ffd8264


Glen,

Gorgeous sound! So mellow! Nice musical development in the improv, too! Beautiful, sensitive playing. Thanks for posting this, and happy birthday, too!!! grin

--Andy
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I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.

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#1910872 - 06/09/12 03:50 AM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso]
Weiyan Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/11
Posts: 769
Loc: Hong Kong
This is today's CHAS tuning session.

The C-G and D-G gap can't be closed. Tried several times, finally find out G# has false beat, so always C#-G# wider, finally lead to higher F, then C and G. The D-G always wider. Change the tuning sequence to avoid the false beat note appear too early. G has false beat too. May be my felt mute technique is troublesome.

The false beat appears only when there is felt mute.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-octave-9-june-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-9-june-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-9-june-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-9-june-2012

In the record, there are birds whistle.

Best wishes to all friends and have a nice weekend.
_________________________
Fake Book player
Ragtime beginner
http://weiyanwo.wordpress.com

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#1910890 - 06/09/12 05:38 AM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: RichDHill]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7882
Loc: France
Hello , thanks for shiming in .

About the advantage of equations practically :

I see that there is a justness model an at the same time an acoustical effect that can be described and heard.

Pianos depending of their own justness , will adopt more or less well those, but some processes are strong in consonance and others less. In the end more harmony makes the piano singing more , which is appreciated.

The use of the chas pretuning allow the instrument to settle in a certain resonance by itself, to conform to the progressiveness. Of intervals , and it certainly fraud the ear, which is fun in that case.

I am unsure of the relation with B. Bremmer. ?

I bet that when a piano have to conform to an acoustical effect there is no need to fight with iH it may be inclueded in the final pitch heard and just make the overall color more spicy.

Talking of confusing the ear, (or the mind wink please explain :

"fter I do the temperament I play a G7, Eb7, A7, and Bb7 to listen to the 6th's and 5th's"

Also 5ths with 2-3 bps, . Are you real ? if I tuned 5 th with 2 or 3 beats I would never enlarge the octaves !


Edited by Kamin (06/09/12 05:55 AM)
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It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#1910892 - 06/09/12 06:04 AM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1072
Loc: Sicily - Italy
Hi All, Hi Weiyan,

"Self critique" is most correct, when you have refined your self critique ability you can be your own tutor and revisor, every day, it is THE must, throughout all your career. Beats are always there, they only call for aural skill, rhythm sensitivity and honesty.

..."For counting beats, I have to take more exercise to learn counting beat. I think in CHAS is easier to count beats.

A3-D4: 1bps
E4-A4: 2bps
D4-A4: nearly no beat. In the procedure sheet, its "faint beating". I guess its nearly just."...

Yes, D4-A4 is "nearly just".

..."A3-E4: 1.5 beats / 3s. This is most difficult interval. So I focus on other interval. If the other three interval beats correct, this will be correct."...

Yes, correct (in general). We will see that all relations can be refined by adding more intervals. This comes with time.

..."The width of A3-A4 is difficult."...

Do not worry, more difficult is perhaps hammer control and stability, give yourself time. The ability to compare beats (rhythms), control the hammer (your whole body) and visualize the "interval relations map" (+ aural power) can develop in parallel, try not to force it and... if you get tired, have a rest.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-octave-8-june-2012

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-8-june-2012

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-8-june-2012

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-8-june-2012

Self critique:

Thirds:
A#-D: slow
D-F#: slow
D#-G: fast
F-A: slow

What I hear:

1 - A3-C#: slow - about 3 bps
2 - A#-D: very fast - like for a sequence of photograms, if the speed rate is very high we cannot separate beats. Remember your D4?
3 - B-D#: slow - around 2 bps
4 - C-E: fast
5 - C#-F: Ok (for now)
6 - D-F#: slow + slower than the previous (C#-F) - about 5 bps
7 - D#-G: Ok - next time you want 6 between 5 and 7
8 - E-G#: slow - you can compare with the previous
9 - F-A4: fast - same effect for A#-D

- . - . - . -

Fourths:
A#-D#: fast
C-F: Fast
E-F: Slower than previous intervals

- . - . - . -

Yes, those two intervals are fast; try to avoid very fast 4ths, like C#-F# and D-G, can you hear they are much faster?

- . - . - . -

Fifths:
B-F#: Fast
C-G: Fast
C#-G#: Fast

- . - . - . -

A3-E - Ok (for now); can you hear the beat starts at your playing? You want the beat start (show) a bit later. Stay close to this effect, close to C#-G# and D-A4.

Your self critique will get better. For now, consider also this general rule: 4ths beat faster than 5ths.
First step (at the beginning), make 4ths very similar - going from A3-D to E-A4, chas 4ths get progressively faster (wider).
First step (at the beginning), make 5ths very similar - going from A3-E to D-A4 and up, chas 5ths get slower (more and more just).

I see now more samples, I'll have a check.

Have a nice w.e. you too, a.c.

Edit: stay close to your five "base" intervals, comparing everything you can: beats, noise, tension, flavor, taste, movement.

Those birds are lovely.


Edited by alfredo capurso (06/09/12 08:50 AM)
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alfredo

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#1910896 - 06/09/12 06:28 AM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: Weiyan]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1072
Loc: Sicily - Italy
Originally Posted By: Weiyan
This is today's CHAS tuning session.

The C-G and D-G gap can't be closed. Tried several times, finally find out G# has false beat, so always C#-G# wider, finally lead to higher F, then C and G. The D-G always wider. Change the tuning sequence to avoid the false beat note appear too early. G has false beat too. May be my felt mute technique is troublesome.

The false beat appears only when there is felt mute.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-octave-9-june-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-9-june-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-9-june-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-9-june-2012

In the record, there are birds whistle.

Best wishes to all friends and have a nice weekend.



http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-octave-9-june-2012

A3-A4 Ok
A3-D too just
D-A4 beats wide (in general, check by moving your hammer gently)
A3-E Ok
E-A4 Ok

I would raise D4.

The rest... later on.
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alfredo

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#1910901 - 06/09/12 06:44 AM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: Inlanding]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1072
Loc: Sicily - Italy
Originally Posted By: Inlanding
Thanks, Alfredo~
Yes, it is an on-the-fly composition - glad you like the music and sound. The idea you think that must mean the tuning is decent, and it is appreciated. I spend a great deal of focus on unisons and octaves, octaves and fifths, and two octaves from the tempered section.

Glen


Hi Glen,

That tuning is more than decent, all together it sounded nice! Yes, good that you are focusing also onto the expansion of the temperament octave, that makes a complete good tuning.

Regards, a.c.
.
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alfredo

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#1910903 - 06/09/12 07:14 AM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1072
Loc: Sicily - Italy
#1910771 - June 09, 2012 02:12 AM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso]

RichDHill Offline
Junior Member

Registered: May 10, 2012
Posts: 2

..."I have to chime in on this on. Thanks to Bill Bremmer for his input."...

Hi Rich, thank you both.

..."I went to Grayson County College for a year to learn to tune by ear and have been tuning for 23 years and have tuned for some pros and non pros and have found the same results. That is, every piano is different, and I try to listen to the 4th and 5th two and three beats from pure (either below or above) and octaves at just over the pure going up the scale and below going down the scale from middle C. All those equations can confuse the ear, (in my opinion)if you tune by ear."...

I would never say "use equations" for tuning. Where did you get that idea?

..."If you use an instrument then it may be helpful to follow some equations."...

In my view, not even then. Instruments require only one finger for settings.

..."After I do the temperament I play a G7, Eb7, A7, and Bb7 to listen to the 6th's and 5th's. If they are too noisy I can adjust."...

Adjusting is always good. In octave 7 (C7-C8) I rearly use 5ths and 6ths. I use more octaves, 12ths, 15ths and 17ths.

..."Also I check the thirds and 6th's by them self. I have been successful using this method. Each piano is a challenge and takes time to find the right time to stop moving the string, cause you can't tune out a single strings false beat."....

Yes, it takes time.

..."Other factors can enter like hammers with deep groves or not striking the strings at the same time. Even a grand that has hammers that can't follow the angle of the strings will sound different than one that does."...

Sure.

..."No equation will help in that kind of problem."...

I agree, It would be pretty strange thinking otherwise.

..."The ear is quite unique and will compensate usually with acceptable results for most people."...

Here I would not discuss maths nor theory, but real tuning, approach and general practice. When ever you want to doublecheck, your samples are welcome.

Regards, a.c.
.
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alfredo

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#1910909 - 06/09/12 07:52 AM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: Olek]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1072
Loc: Sicily - Italy
Originally Posted By: Kamin
Hello , thanks for shiming in .

About the advantage of equations practically :

I see that there is a justness model an at the same time an acoustical effect that can be described and heard.

Pianos depending of their own justness , will adopt more or less well those, but some processes are strong in consonance and others less. In the end more harmony makes the piano singing more , which is appreciated.

The use of the chas pretuning allow the instrument to settle in a certain resonance by itself, to conform to the progressiveness. Of intervals , and it certainly fraud the ear, which is fun in that case.

I am unsure of the relation with B. Bremmer. ?

I bet that when a piano have to conform to an acoustical effect there is no need to fight with iH it may be inclueded in the final pitch heard and just make the overall color more spicy.

Talking of confusing the ear, (or the mind wink please explain :

"fter I do the temperament I play a G7, Eb7, A7, and Bb7 to listen to the 6th's and 5th's"

Also 5ths with 2-3 bps, . Are you real ? if I tuned 5 th with 2 or 3 beats I would never enlarge the octaves !


Hi Isaac,

I must believe that Rich was told about some theory, but I cannot say if he was told how to separate theory from practice.

Bill, after three years of sharing, shows no interest at all, be it Chas theory or Pre-tuning practice. I'm still puzzled and do not really know what to think.

Together, iH + tuning approximations make many checks pretty blunt, a useless misleading exercise, as iH will upset the tuning. That is why Bill says (and wrote) that octaves do not define the character of a tuning, and 12ths and 15ths end up being all over the place.

Also, 4ths and 5ths are still said to be similar and there is no acceptance of the 5ths beat rate inversion; by adding this to the above, I get an answer.

Have a nice day,

Alfredo


Edited by alfredo capurso (06/09/12 08:45 AM)
Edit Reason: addings
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#1910944 - 06/09/12 09:22 AM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso]
woodog Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/21/12
Posts: 405
Loc: Bowling Green, KY
I can add nothing to this thread except to give my thanks to all the contributors for sharing their work. I was up way late last night listening and thinking about this process. I hope to be a decent tuner one day.

Forrest
_________________________
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current studies:
Debussy: Suite Bergamasque
Bach 848, 866
Schumann Op. 15

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#1910959 - 06/09/12 09:49 AM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: woodog]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7882
Loc: France
I guess Bill want to "sell" it own method, but he is reading too (I noticed he changed his unison tuning and possibly lever method since 2 years - which is OK, anyone can change at some point, but I recall the way he was tuning that piano in the thread my piano in EBVT, could not really hold in time, while his actual tone is better wink

In fact I told to Weiyan (and to Inlanding 2 years ago) how easy I find the intervals tuning in the pretuning ; indeed I have seen that with some experience at hand, but when I see how Inlanding developed a nice tone, and how fast Weiyan is catching on unison work I ma persuaded that things will go faster by now.

We are breaking a myth there, about the so many long time necessary to learn to build a decent tuning (well it is left hours and numerous pianos to tune but the time lost looking for answers is certainly reduced).

I mostly believe incorrect explanations with no focus on the important parts, the abuse of ETD, makes the tuners way less efficiently learning, then many are simply "doing their job" without trying to learn more, as soon as the customer is satisfied - I experiment the same here with pianists that are immediately aware that the tuning does not move, that it is "solid" gives a robustness sensation, confidence in playing, to me the robustness of a tuning is something that is perceived, the lack of is more or less.

I now have seen Chas tunings a year later, and most often the relation stay put (no explanations on that)

But having some structurally comprehensible definitions, finding words and exercises, was not so easy.

Inlanding was lucky he could work in a shop tuning different pianos, hence his fast results (he also have a good musical sense that certainly makes a difference between tuners)

I believe that as soon Weyian could setup a good temperament (or pre tuning temperament, so to say), if he could work on different pianos he will progress fast.

I am persuaded that the intervals will be mastered soon.

Could you record a tuning sequence, Alfredo (may be not on a concert piano, but something that is done more fast wink

Did you notice the raising of torque on pianos that look almost un-tuneable (I hope you don't have many in your customers !)


I will tune a vertical tonight, I have PR 1 1/2 tone in January, using the pretuning method. I will record it before tuning... it is supposed to be really out of tune, but the customer , a cellist, tells me "there are a few notes" ... We will see.

Greetings
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#1910964 - 06/09/12 10:07 AM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: woodog]
RichDHill Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 05/10/12
Posts: 10
Loc: Montgomery, Al
I will have to ask Kamin and others about the 4th's and 5th's who are in this discussion. After I tune the A to 440 I tune octave below to it. Then I tune D where I have about 3 rolls above pure, ( these are slight rolls) then G to about 2 rolls above. Each 5th and 4th will be the same, G to C, C to F, I do the F octave, then F to Bb, checking also ovtave F to Bb, Bb to Eb, Eb to Ab, Ab to Cb, Cb to Gb, Gb to B, then B to E. then E should be already tuned to A, if not I will check until it works, (I can go to the sharp or flat, but I chose sharp because I come for the sharp and bring it down to set the pin). If I'm right then F3 to Bb4 will be 2 rolls flat and F4 to Bb will be 3 rolls sharp. I then tune the octaves above with just a very slight roll to sharp going up the scale from my temperament and flat going down. That gives the stretch tuning. When I get to say C6 I can hit C6 and G4 and will hear about the same roll as I do with C4 and G3. I have no problem with this tuning as I widen the 4th's or 5th's and the octaves.

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#1910966 - 06/09/12 10:16 AM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7882
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso
Originally Posted By: Weiyan
This is today's CHAS tuning session.

The C-G and D-G gap can't be closed. Tried several times, finally find out G# has false beat, so always C#-G# wider, finally lead to higher F, then C and G. The D-G always wider. Change the tuning sequence to avoid the false beat note appear too early. G has false beat too. May be my felt mute technique is troublesome.

The false beat appears only when there is felt mute.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-octave-9-june-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-9-june-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-9-june-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-9-june-2012

In the record, there are birds whistle.

Best wishes to all friends and have a nice weekend.



http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-octave-9-june-2012

A3-A4 Ok
A3-D too just
D-A4 beats wide (in general, check by moving your hammer gently)
A3-E Ok
E-A4 Ok

I would raise D4.

The rest... later on.

"breaking" of all intervals when the unisons are tuned is surprising and helps to avoid that too actives 10ths and 6ths we have in the standard method

I wonder if the "energy method" as I used in unison tuning can be used for octaves, I would suggest it can be the foundation of a good octave, then we only have to regulate the "opening" , hence the speed at which the beat begin to speak.

On a good piano the vibes of the strings are felt in the tuning hammer also.

All the best !


Edited by Kamin (06/10/12 09:37 AM)
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It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#1910970 - 06/09/12 10:36 AM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: RichDHill]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7882
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: RichDHill
I will have to ask Kamin and others about the 4th's and 5th's who are in this discussion. After I tune the A to 440 I tune octave below to it. Then I tune D where I have about 3 rolls above pure, ( these are slight rolls) then G to about 2 rolls above. Each 5th and 4th will be the same, G to C, C to F, I do the F octave, then F to Bb, checking also ovtave F to Bb, Bb to Eb, Eb to Ab, Ab to Cb, Cb to Gb, Gb to B, then B to E. then E should be already tuned to A, if not I will check until it works, (I can go to the sharp or flat, but I chose sharp because I come for the sharp and bring it down to set the pin). If I'm right then F3 to Bb4 will be 2 rolls flat and F4 to Bb will be 3 rolls sharp. I then tune the octaves above with just a very slight roll to sharp going up the scale from my temperament and flat going down. That gives the stretch tuning. When I get to say C6 I can hit C6 and G4 and will hear about the same roll as I do with C4 and G3. I have no problem with this tuning as I widen the 4th's or 5th's and the octaves.


Hello thank you for the explanations, I am sure you have no problem basically, if you can obtain reconciliation of your intervals, have everything following a given structure, in the end the piano is sounding in tune.

Looking at the speed of 5ths and 4ths you allow, I wonder if the tone is not very "greasy" with much activity. Where do you hear the intervals are the most consonant ?

Also in your temperament sequence you did not include checks of progressiveness for the fast beating intervals, which are to me the mean to keep the control on the slow beating ones.

You aim for a progressiveness of 5 ths and 4ths in the A3 A4 octave, if I follow you well

A good sequence allow for checks between chromatic , contiguous or a step apart fast beating intervals,

If you could post a few samples of your temperament sequence I like to hear them.

Something I like is that you are tuning beats in slow beating intervals, this is opposed to what many of us are trying to do i.e tend to pure 5ths or pure intervals. In the end that gives you more freeness and good listening habits may be possibly a particular tone, that can be appreciated .

The method seem to me as an somewhat old way as was told some time ago, before the trade begin to use the 3ds (it could be along time ago, as Pleyel have proposed a ladder of third based temperament.

Do you tune on one string (strip muting) ?

Best regards
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#1910986 - 06/09/12 11:13 AM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: Olek]
RichDHill Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 05/10/12
Posts: 10
Loc: Montgomery, Al
I do use a strip for the middle part of the piano and use the rubber for the bass and treble, starting with tuning the right string first and then the middle and then the left after the strip mute. That gives me the ability to use the rubber mute to have only two strings to vibrate. Going down the bass I tune the left first and then the right. Very few times will I mute the whole piano. If I do I am tying to set the middle string across the whole scale first consternating on octaves only.
I also check the 3rd's and the 6th's of the temperament. If I do it right and the piano responds the 3rd's will graduate from slow to fast beats starting from F3 and A3 to F4 to C#4. The 6th's will be the same graduated slow to faster beats.
I cannot brag on myself, but I have tuned for people like Brian Adams, Alicia Keys, Ronnie Milsap, Victor Borge, and many others and a number of Professors of music from universities in Alabama and Florida. Also studio musicians form Nashville that come down to play here in Montgomery. I have had no bad words about my tuning as to date, ( except for the piano that was available to them where they came to. Some find it hard to play on a 5 1/2 foot when they are use to a 9 foot). The way I tune I have a good built in vibrato that will sound great on a good piano. I have tuned a many bad sounding pianos that no matter what you do it sounds like it needs tuning. I find that most home pianos are, (at least around here) are very poor sounding. Mostly due to a piano sold that has not been prep. Most people do not,(to my dismay) hear the difference like I do. A few will appreciate a good tuning. Every once in a while I run across someone who hears things that I don't hear. One lady I tuned for kept telling me the Eb 6 did not sound right to her, so I did the octave and let her hear and then the unisons and she was fine for about 2 minutes. She kept going back to it. But for the most after 23 years I have been successful and got many repeat costumers. Not that I have no need to continue to hone my skills. Every piano is exercising and honing my skills to be a better tuner.

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#1911063 - 06/09/12 01:29 PM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: RichDHill]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1072
Loc: Sicily - Italy
Originally Posted By: woodog
I can add nothing to this thread except to give my thanks to all the contributors for sharing their work. I was up way late last night listening and thinking about this process. I hope to be a decent tuner one day.

Forrest


Hi Woodog,

You can well hope that, I have no doubts. Tuning can be fan, and you seem to like it.

Originally Posted By: RichDHill
I will have to ask Kamin and others about the 4th's and 5th's who are in this discussion. After I tune the A to 440 I tune octave below to it. Then I tune D where I have about 3 rolls above pure, ( these are slight rolls) then G to about 2 rolls above. Each 5th and 4th will be the same, G to C, C to F, I do the F octave, then F to Bb, checking also ovtave F to Bb, Bb to Eb, Eb to Ab, Ab to Cb, Cb to Gb, Gb to B, then B to E. then E should be already tuned to A, if not I will check until it works, (I can go to the sharp or flat, but I chose sharp because I come for the sharp and bring it down to set the pin). If I'm right then F3 to Bb4 will be 2 rolls flat and F4 to Bb will be 3 rolls sharp. I then tune the octaves above with just a very slight roll to sharp going up the scale from my temperament and flat going down. That gives the stretch tuning. When I get to say C6 I can hit C6 and G4 and will hear about the same roll as I do with C4 and G3. I have no problem with this tuning as I widen the 4th's or 5th's and the octaves.


..."I will have to ask Kamin and others about the 4th's and 5th's who are in this discussion. After I tune the A to 440 I tune octave below to it. Then I tune D where I have about 3 rolls above pure, ( these are slight rolls) then G to about 2 rolls above."...

That makes A3-D4 rolling (do you mean beating) more than D4-G4. Or perhaps you meant G3?

..."Each 5th and 4th will be the same, G to C, C to F,..."...

If that works for you, that is good. I normally prefer to position (roll-wise // beating) every interval in between other intervals, so that I can compare and check sooner (asap), before I've gone too far. For instance, looking at your sequence (which may work perfectly Ok) I would invert the beat rate of A3-D4 and D4-G4, so that the latter rolls more than the former. Then, I would make sure that C4-G4 rolls more than D4-A4 and that C4-F4 rolling is in between A3-D4 *////* D4-G4.

..."I do the F octave, then F to Bb,..."...

Which F, F3 or F4?

..."checking also ovtave F to Bb,..."...

So you go F4 Bb3… there I would make sure that this 5th rolls more (thinking in terms of progression) than C4-G4.

..."Bb to Eb, Eb to Ab, Ab to Cb, Cb to Gb, Gb to B, then B to E. then E should be already tuned to A, if not I will check until it works, (I can go to the sharp or flat, but I chose sharp because I come for the sharp and bring it down to set the pin)."...

Yes, I understand (correct?) that you go through the whole temperament section, before checking if E4 is tuned to A.

..."If I'm right then F3 to Bb4 will be 2 rolls flat and F4 to Bb will be 3 rolls sharp."...

F4 to Bb, I think you mean Bb3, then this 5th rolls more than F3-Bb4 4th? That is not my case.

..."I then tune the octaves above with just a very slight roll to sharp going up the scale from my temperament and flat going down. That gives the stretch tuning. When I get to say C6 I can hit C6 and G4 and will hear about the same roll as I do with C4 and G3."...

C6 and G4 make a 12th, that rolls as the 4th C4-G3. This is not my case. Anyway, for instance, basing on your sequence, I'd check the 10ths progression already at A3-C#5, looking for the correct similarity with F3-A4, then getting to C6 with 10ths and 12ths all in the correct order.

..."I have no problem with this tuning as I widen the 4th's or 5th's and the octaves."...

It is good that you are happy with your tuning, as it's good that you are willing to compare your procedure as well.

Regards, a.c.


Edited by alfredo capurso (06/09/12 01:37 PM)
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#1911072 - 06/09/12 02:00 PM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso]
RichDHill Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 05/10/12
Posts: 10
Loc: Montgomery, Al
I set the A first to 440 then octave A below. From that the temperament will be from F3 to F4 so all the notes will be between these two F's setting the 5th's and 4th's. So it will be tuning D from A, (3rolls sharp) G from D, (2 rolls sharp) C from G, (3 rolls sharp) F from C, (2 rolls sharp) then octave F, (above), Bb from both F's, (F3 2 rolls flat, f4 3 rolls sharp) Eb from Bb, (3 rolls sharp) Ab from Eb, 2 rolls sharp) Db from Ab, (2 rolls sharp) Gb from Ab, (3 rolls sharp) B from Gb, ( 2 rolls sharp) and then I tune E from B and it should be 3 rolls sharp and be okay from A, 2 rolls.
For me, easier done than said. When I am done I will check the 3rd's and 6th's by themselves and with the G7, Eb7, A7, and Bb7. I can hear the 6th's and any 5th's that are too wide. I will do other checks as I go if needed. As long as I get it right I will not have to go back and redo. Although sometimes i will get up or down the scale and find something not quite right and have to backtrack, but not anything too bad I can't correct easily.

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