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#1911471 - 06/10/12 02:14 PM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Olek]
Maximillyan Offline
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Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1494
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Kamin

I recognized that I had some friction (in a blok of pine wood) with that cardboard insert. That does not mean it will stay put in time, but at last it explained to me way Maxims was so entitled in his process. Then as I tend to be honest on those matters I acknowledged that. But whenever I have a little more time I will do real tests with torque/meter, and manipulations.
The cardboard once turned to dust may do like the wood shims and begin to be inefficient after some time.


If properly understood, did Kamin tested the method of Maxim? For me, I say this quite frankly, my Great respect for You . Thank for your positive review.
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#1911475 - 06/10/12 02:25 PM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Loren D]
accordeur Online   content
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Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 1168
Loc: Qubec, Canada
Max, have you even tried to find CA glue in Kazakhstan?
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#1911476 - 06/10/12 02:31 PM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Olek]
Maximillyan Offline
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Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1494
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Kamin


If the trick with cardboard works because of some resin or something which is added to the cardboard, this could be a possibility to experiment, for instance some kind of resin could be used as it is done to repair woods .

Wholesome grains in it is, but we do not know how much resin take in every hole. It's need finely smudge here. If only there to immerse the probe camera. And then do an analysis of destruction pinblock
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#1911479 - 06/10/12 02:43 PM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: accordeur]
Maximillyan Offline
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Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1494
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: accordeur
Max, have you even tried to find CA glue in Kazakhstan?

Unfortunately, I ordered one of his last winter my friend in Moscow. He said he did not find it's even in specialized glue's shop. This week a friend traveled to Samara and also could not buy.
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#1911483 - 06/10/12 02:54 PM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Loren D]
Maximillyan Offline
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Posts: 1494
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Loren D
Originally Posted By: Johnkie
While using cardboard, veneer, sandpaper or any other type of substance may enable a loose wrestpin to grip with enough firmness to hold, it can only ever be thought of as a quick cheap fix!


I think there is merit to the argument that an already stressed, dry, cracking block can be made worse by hammering. At the very least, it's going to jar other pins out of tune also, if those pins are going.

still say a shim is a shim is a shim.

And I say:"YES,Loren D!"
"Одно лечим, другое калечим!"
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#1911687 - 06/11/12 01:31 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Johnkie]
Maximillyan Offline
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Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1494
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Johnkie
While using cardboard, veneer, sandpaper or any other type of substance may enable a loose wrestpin to grip with enough firmness to hold, it can only ever be thought of as a quick cheap fix! It appears that Max is heck bent on using this forum to promote his own personal methods, and not to learn and take advice from the vast pool professionals who try to coach him.

He disagrees with hammering in wrestpins, saying that it causes damage ...... it doesn't cause damage .... it may be the last straw for surrounding wrestpins that are at the point of giving up the ghost. In which case they too need seeing to !

The removal of wrestpins generates heat .... turning them out slowly by hand can often leave them so hot that they can't be handled .... However, if removed quickly, using a power drill, they are nowhere near as hot, and because the process is so rapid, the plank suffers less heat damage.

If using cardboard is his only method (because of availability of materials and costs), then slowly screwing in the wrestpin ... which is now very much tighter, will generate a great deal of heat that can only be a bad thing for an already "soft" plank. Hammering in pins is by far the best practice of stringing .... it's quick ... and more to the point ... it causes MUCH LESS heat and potential damage to the plank.

You are all turned upside down,Johnkie. Do you not know that the fast speed of an electric drill is more harmful phenomenon for the pinblock in moment screwing. Ancient people made this such a way to born fire . They fast rotated wood stick as fast as allowed their physiology. Yes, in my video I really do it quickly, because it is very limited in time. But I explain in Russian, that the whole process should go as slowly as possible, so as not burned pinblock. In my experience, this never happened . This is possible only in theory. Do it's the slower and then the problem does not exist. Re setting the pin (and then slowly screwing in) - "Hammering in pins is by far the best practice of stringing .... it's quick ... and more to the point "score is total world practice? Whom it has been proved as the best. You can show technical calculation of different brands of pianos, which is the denial of screwing. You wrote that it is quick! Bravo! Russian proverb: "Fast, only cats are born" (быстро, только кошки родятся) Fast is not always reliable and good quality. I declare that any process, even with a hammering pin must be explained in terms of physics, if it is only right. If we hammered (with shim or oversize pin), then the following happens:
1 Power load from hitting on walls of pinblock acts more destructive than screwing. Existing cracks in the walls will inevitably increase. Because we act blindly.
2 When hammering, since pin made from steel, it will choose their location so as to penetrate into the soft and cracked wood fiber. Therefore, in practice new re placing hammering pin are not parallel to each other.
3 As a result of hammering on the pins re placed capable to completely destroy one of the sector of pinblock.
4 Do not go into details, I wrote earlier that the suffering neighbor pins, which still worked before.
The fact that the "Max is heck bent" is your right to say so, if you you consider possible for yourself lexicon talk the opponent about.
I have the honor, maxim_tuner
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#1911715 - 06/11/12 05:20 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Loren D]
Johnkie Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/04/11
Posts: 688
Loc: England
Max :

You exhibit a desire to have not the slightest intention of listening to advice, and I'm not inclined to waste any further time on your posts. Why bother using this forum if you have no interest in learning from the wealth of experience on offer.
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#1911738 - 06/11/12 07:02 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Loren D]
Olek Online   content
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Registered: 03/14/08
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He is highly unnerving !!
most blocks dont hold because the wood is crushed and the resiliency have migrated from around the pin to farther regions, cracks happens but this is not the main problem .

Hammering a pin while the rest of the block is loaded with all those metal pins cannot do harm unless the block is cracked and there the solution is new wood, not shims.

BUT you need to have the correct tools to drive the pin straight.

When mounting new pins I even use a pneumatic "palm nailer" to drive pins, it provides a good fit, and ask me no effort.

We all meet pianos where some strings have been changed by making the coils on the inserted pins (by a tech that never learned to make the coil externally or who is lazy) .
The grip lower a lot because of heat, but also because it is the same as sanding the inside of the hole.

Those pins are the first to be defective when the piano is aging.

If one want to turn the pin he have to wait 5 minutes after every 2 turns so the pin get cold enough... it is really more than time consuming ...
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#1911747 - 06/11/12 07:45 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Olek]
Maximillyan Offline
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Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1494
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Kamin

If one want to turn the pin he have to wait 5 minutes after every 2 turns so the pin get cold enough... it is really more than time consuming ...

Why would you put this replic for me is not clear? You repeat with marked regularity well-known all a things. I think to it's known for piano's technicians. One of thing you are right, it's about the inevitability of time to stretch it's for high-quality operation screwing a pin. This industrial-technological requirement for this method.
"He's very nervous" (Не дождётесь)
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#1911748 - 06/11/12 07:49 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Loren D]
Loren D Offline
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Loc: PA
I'm sure driving pins in also generates heat, so it's not like saying one way creates heat while the other doesn't. Yes, there differences in the coefficients of sliding friction vs. rolling friction (that's as far as I'll go, as it's been years since my high school physics class!), but there is friction in either case.
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#1911749 - 06/11/12 07:54 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Johnkie]
Maximillyan Offline
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Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1494
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Johnkie
and I'm not inclined to waste any further time on your posts.

Believe me it is not very great desire to answer your mistakes here. However, you do forces it and I must need to answer
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#1911754 - 06/11/12 08:06 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Loren D]
Maximillyan Offline
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Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1494
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Loren D
I'm sure driving pins in also generates heat, so it's not like saying one way creates heat while the other doesn't. Yes, there differences in the coefficients of sliding friction vs. rolling friction (that's as far as I'll go, as it's been years since my high school physics class!), but there is friction in either case.

I agree with you,Loren D. The coefficient of friction is directly related to the density or partial it's absence between pins and wood. Perhaps if we hammering the coefficient less. But I do not think that difference is great.
In the case with corrugated cardboard shim is promotes like hot flatiron(iron) as if we ironed rolling pin from inside wood hole . Since almost for all heat it is directed on thin layers of the surface hole bush and cellulose particles of


Edited by Maximillyan (06/11/12 08:21 AM)
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#1911771 - 06/11/12 08:42 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Loren D]
Mark R. Offline
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Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 1938
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
Originally Posted By: Loren D
I'm sure driving pins in also generates heat, so it's not like saying one way creates heat while the other doesn't. Yes, there differences in the coefficients of sliding friction vs. rolling friction (that's as far as I'll go, as it's been years since my high school physics class!), but there is friction in either case.


The friction type is sliding friction in both cases. I posit that the difference rather lies in the effective distance for which the metal is dragged across the wood. With driving, it's a distance of 1 1/2", at most 2". With turning, there are perhaps 10 turns, if not more, each of which covers a circumference of about 1", so the effective distance is 10", possibly more.
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#1911773 - 06/11/12 08:51 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Loren D]
Loren D Offline
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Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
I'm not up on physics by a long shot, but now that I think of it, you're right. I was equating the turning of the pin in the block to a tire rolling on a road, but then it hit me that in the tire, there is also forward (or backward) motion.

You're right, in the case of the pin it's sliding friction both times since the pin is not also moving in the directional plane of the turning.
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#1911872 - 06/11/12 12:02 PM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Loren D]
molehill Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/25/07
Posts: 47
Loc: Historic Lebanon, Ohio
Already learned a lot from this thread!

No one has asked smooth surface cardboard vs. using a couple layers of the rippled interior alone and therefore maybe more original glue surface for better grip.

What if you combine the above with CA glue?

May I have permission to add these to the trial examples for Roy Rogers?

I misspoke, it is "Zap-A-Gap" (airplane modelers’ glue) I use. Important to mention its age is a concern. Discussed with other modelers. Always securely cap AND use the larger outer cap as well. Repairing even bare wood to wood a well capped older bottle bond is not always strong, especially on 1” scale dollhouse furniture legs, or chair arms. So please be suspect of a repair made with previously opened CA. I use and sell the ½ oz bottles for my small scale repairs.

Yes, I agree it has a glass-like surface. Successfully used that fact as a way to camouflage repair/refinishing of wood, resin and china. But would that glassy surface plus friction heat add to the deterioration of the bond? Maybe the fuzzier surface interior cardboard would compensate?

Drawn here to see if missing cardboard boat. I too believe only wood to wood and fabricate pieces myself. Other professional dollhouse builders use poster cardboard, or corrugated. I always called it “the weakest link”. But have used framing mat board as drywall to hide electrical wiring.

I also have experience behind my remarks. Reputed total perfectionist. Know which glues for what job, etc. Tools in my hands before my teens. BUT I AWAYS LEARN SOMETHING ON PIANO WORLD! That is why I joined this thread.
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It is never too late to be what you might have been. George Eliot

1919 Weber Duo-Art upright, Roland RD-700GX,
1918 Chickering Ampico 5'8" grand


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#1911875 - 06/11/12 12:04 PM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Loren D]
molehill Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/25/07
Posts: 47
Loc: Historic Lebanon, Ohio
To all, sorry about previous long post, very depressed, decompressing. Wish made 2, piano damage and story behind it. Yes, should have gotten experienced tech but thought I was.

To Max, thank you for replying. At 20 you are far too young to feel your dreams have not been fulfilled. That is why at 57 ½ always eager to learn something new. Taking piano lessons, and hope to receive my tuner today. Thanks also for wishes I succeed at tuning, Will think of your encouragement often. Wish could give you a hug in person and a bottle of CA from my shop.
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It is never too late to be what you might have been. George Eliot

1919 Weber Duo-Art upright, Roland RD-700GX,
1918 Chickering Ampico 5'8" grand


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#1912160 - 06/12/12 02:43 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: molehill]
Maximillyan Offline
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Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1494
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: molehill
But would that glassy surface plus friction heat add to the deterioration of the bond?

Dear molehill, thank you for your comments and suggestions on the topic of our discussion of the process of corrugated cardboard and glue different materials. Your doubts about the necessary rigidity between the pins and the glass side of wood after the use of CA is really correct. I see that CA is able to provide the necessary bond between the pins and CA will be able to provide reliable hard fixation treated wood glue. The temperature does not count here. However, I think that after treatment with wood and glue is a firm grip. In fact we glue a pin with the hole of block and bush. While using the cardboard in the repair we increase small layer from cellulose for treatment wood the ruined surface block. If after a period of time we will need to turn the pin when the string is upset, goes down, I'm afraid that the peg will slide in the hole. However, this is just my guess
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#1912162 - 06/12/12 02:50 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: molehill]
Maximillyan Offline
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Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1494
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: molehill


May I have permission to add these to the trial examples for Roy Rogers?

molehill,you can't even imagine how I would be happy!
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http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#1912167 - 06/12/12 03:04 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: molehill]
Maximillyan Offline
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Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1494
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: molehill

Maybe the fuzzier surface interior cardboard would compensate?

If I understand you correctly molehill, you propose to paste shim corrugated board in the hole. Preliminary to inflict CA on it and only then tighten the pin. It should be very reliable and tough. Sorry, I do not have this capability. Dear technicians, if possible, try the do it's test. To publish the results here
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#1912227 - 06/12/12 07:43 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Loren D]
Loren D Offline
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Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
I'm still not convinced about CA glue, even though it's widely accepted now.

Here's why: We all agree on the incredibly high capillary action of the stuff. I speculate that because of this, most of it wicks into the first porous material it finds, and in most modern pianos, that would be the pin bushing (I know not all makes have them, but I said "most.")

I think essentially what happens is that you glue the tuning pin to the bushing. I'd love to experiment on an old clunker with it once or twice.

Another thing I worry about would be liability. Those fumes are pretty nasty. If someone would wind up with an asthma attack, or be overcome by the fumes, that would not be good. Something to consider since this work is usually done in the customer's home. Remember the smell of Schaff's Garfield center pin solution? I wouldn't even use that in the customer's home, because of how bad it smelled.
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#1912240 - 06/12/12 08:41 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Loren D]
Ed Foote Offline
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Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 1101
Loc: Tennessee
[quote=Loren D]I'm still not convinced about CA glue, even though it's widely accepted now.
Here's why: We all agree on the incredibly high capillary action of the stuff. I speculate that because of this, most of it wicks into the first porous material it finds, and in most modern pianos, that would be the pin bushing (I know not all makes have them, but I said "most.") /quote]

Greetings,
I have used CA for the last 6 years, once, even treating an entire piano that was being restrung,(no money for the block). It tunes like any other good piano. I was amazed. It consistently adds 15-30 lbs of torque to loose pins, which has always been plenty of tension to tune well with. I have never seen a loose pin in a bushing that didnt' have a small gap at the back, which is all that is needed to let it run down the pin.
The only skeptics I have seen are those that have little or no experience with CA. Try it on blocks that are in for replacement, try it on scraps of pinblock, etc.
Become familiar with the speed, ease, and results, and most reasonable people will see it as a vast improvement. I was trained in the most traditional ways of piano technology, and CA is "new", but it is so far ahead of the rest of the "restorers" that I wouldn't consider anything else.
If there wasn't sufficient torque with CA, it is a simple matter to go up a pinsize. The CA application doesn't hurt anything.
Regards,

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#1912245 - 06/12/12 08:59 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Loren D]
Loren D Offline
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Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
What about when someone goes to rebuild and finds the pinblock has been CA'd to the plate?
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#1912258 - 06/12/12 09:25 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Loren D]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
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Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4187
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada

Melt it with alcohol based solvent.
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#1912273 - 06/12/12 09:59 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Loren D]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7247
Loc: France
You did it , Dan ? You cannot melt cured CA as easily in my opinion (I recall when I had to clean the door lock that someone had gently poured with CA, it took 3 days (sorry, 5 days) with highly volatile solvents (Aceton, methyl ketone MEK). Alcohol did not do anything (but now I know how to do if the same "joke" happens again).

The problem of old mushy block is that we need 2/10 thickness of a highly resilient material to hold the original pîn, which BTW is not anymore having good threads usually. Also all the metal dust which is in the whole, mixed with the cardboard dust, will not hold the pin for very long unless one is able to tune it once every 5 years.

Cardboard is done with very soft wood, while pinblock is done with very hard one (not so hard but way more than the cellulose of the cardboard)

Then if it is possible to gain some grip with some anti adhesive product, plus a minimal holding, the tuning can be restored for a few years.

When I tested normal CA, it makes a bearing around the pin that where turning more easily after than before, so the grip capacity of the cured CA surface escapes me. When tuning that will probably also fall in dust, may be that dust is what makes the CA thing works, from your witnessings.






Edited by Kamin (06/12/12 10:08 AM)
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#1912277 - 06/12/12 10:06 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Loren D]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1494
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Loren D


I think essentially what happens is that you glue the tuning pin to the bushing.

because of how bad it smelled.


You're probably right Loren D, if the composition of this CA is acrylic thing re-screwing pin is placed now in a new bush. In fact, as if we put pin in a hole the half glass tube (flask). For me the question this way. Initially, metallic pin placed in the wood material. After repairing pin (metal)+ wood+ the lower part of the glass. Would it have a new connection to be reliable for several years it's work?
Loren D,how long is it is aired the smell from the room of week, month?
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#1912292 - 06/12/12 10:27 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Olek]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1494
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Kamin


The problem of old mushy block is that we need 2/10 thickness of a highly resilient material to hold the original pîn, which BTW is not anymore having good threads usually. Also all the metal dust which is in the whole, mixed with the cardboard dust, will not hold the pin for very long unless one is able to tune it once every 5 years.

Cardboard is done with very soft wood, while pinblock is done with very hard one (not so hard but way more than the cellulose of the cardboard)

Then if it is possible to gain some grip with some anti adhesive product, plus a minimal holding, the tuning can be restored for a few years.

Thank you Kamin, for the discussion of corrugated cardboard. Victory may be considered for me if the pin is in the "new hole screwed" hold out and a string don't be weakened at least six months.
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#1912296 - 06/12/12 10:36 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Loren D]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7247
Loc: France
I am sorry Max but you miss totally the point there, , if you customers cannot pay you much you better repair the more that you can in a durable way, there is so much to do on most pianos.

Sometime I read you as if you had passed 40 years without any recognizing of your efforts and value, so you need to write youself how good you are.

Dont worry the services you give to your customers are valued, if not with money, by other means, and providing the best one is the only way, to me.

Gaining 6 months or even 2-3 years may be not enough under certain circumstances. And no fight there, old wire (after 10 years so to say) need very little pin friction to hold pitch normally, but then dryness and humidity are moving all the setup, that is why it does not stay put as well.

Old wire can be tuned in a poor holding block with some success once you get an adequate pin setting technique. Then it may hold for 6-months or a year without any shim (if not brutalized)
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#1912304 - 06/12/12 11:07 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Olek]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1494
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Kamin


Sometime I read you as if you had passed 40 years without any recognizing of your efforts and value, so you need to write youself how good you are.

Dont worry the services you give to your customers are valued, if not with money, by other means, and providing the best one is the only way, to me.

Perhaps unfortunately, I still didn't something very good and meaningful (me 40 years). So write about myself that I am super it would be indiscreet, wrong and arrogant. All my life I am turning pin of verticals and grateful customers pay a little money. I'm trying to learn new methods of tuning, but as you noticed me is not got nothing new and all my a tests vain
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#1912554 - 06/12/12 10:58 PM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Ed Foote]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1494
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Ed Foote
[quote=Loren D]I'm still not convinced about CA glue, even though it's widely accepted now.
Here's why: We all agree on the incredibly high capillary action of the stuff. I speculate that because of this, most of it wicks into the first porous material it finds, and in most modern pianos, that would be the pin bushing (I know not all makes have them, but I said "most.") /quote]

adds 15-30 lbs of torque to loose pins, which has always been plenty of tension to tune well with. I have never seen a loose pin in a bushing that didnt' have a small gap at the back, which is all that is needed to let it run down the pin.

Ed Foote,I am pleased that CA provides a margin of safety to the torque is good for pin. How do you tested measures a lost pin? Or is your personal feeling of your hand? I would like to learn more about it's. I have a question. If the CA gives adds 15-30 lbs of torque to loose pins, to result I think that a corrugated cardboard shim is not much less. I do not know how make need tested it


Edited by Maximillyan (06/12/12 10:59 PM)
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#1912566 - 06/12/12 11:34 PM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Loren D]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1494
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Loren D
but there is friction in either case.

In our case, when a heat received as result the excessive friction after the installation of additional corrugated cardboard solvable only works for the benefit. As I wrote before it warms up some particles of starch or silicate glue and under high pressure evenly pieces cellulose to gradually pressed into the wall of hole (pinblock) and bush. But that process a screwing we can use the T-bar is not fast, and thus create the ideal temperature inside the timber. To reduce the temperature needs to be done several times and did not knock at full strength when we do hammering on the pin . But what I saw on YouTube, so no one does. There's technology of hammer beats is fast and strong .
In both technologies, re-install of a pin, we can control the friction force
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http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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