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#1909566 - 06/06/12 05:14 PM Re: Advice about unison tuning. [Re: plns]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: plns
Sorry guys. I've been away from the computer most of the day.

Here are four links.

Temperament:

https://www.box.com/s/7dde52d33b40ebcf5d3f


1st Octave:

https://www.box.com/s/2e700fd12cf065d07222


Higher octave:

https://www.box.com/s/f383967ba3ae94d067c1


Lower octave:

https://www.box.com/s/03d54a468ff1aff6e7a0



The piano was a half tone flat. Last week I simply raised everything sharp and now tuning for real.

AS Kamin said, I was tuning the first octave against three strings but only on the first 2 or 3 I realised this and switched to tuning one on one from the temperament.



Hello ,
difficult to say something constructive. Seem to me that you want to "turn" that pin way too much and you move the note too high, too low.

I would suggest that you use earplugs so you are less agressed by the tone, play a little more often but regularly, and try to do like you do on that G3# where I hear you chasing for tone on the first doublet , at that note you seem to tune at the good moment What misses then is a test blow once you finished a note.

The piano seem to have a relatively impure tone, not very easy to train on.

To refresh your ears when you feel tired, try plucking a few high treble wire, if freshen the ears (if not they tend to close)

Your touch is not bad ,not harsh, but you could try to provoke more the rebound of the hammer, may be that would help the tone and help to tune, so try to play without bottoming heavily, when you want to listen to the attack, should be frank but light at the same time , how to say ? the hand may be very quiet even if you play strong.

Short strokes and varying touch may be can help. (I mean, play as if you play stacatto, but with the full lenght of the tone, attack stacatto and let the hand fall so the dampers are up.

PS "temperament" to me is a temperament sequence, so it is difficult to understand what you do without seeing.
It is good yet that you can tune soon enough in the tone.

For the initial string just try to bring it there with the playing hand more than with the lever, then set the piano, it will go too low but you may raise it a it more the next time (ETD are more or less useless to learn that because you only can see what happens with some delay, while your ears have heard it yet... How much to raise above the justness to have the good setting ? the ETD never could help me to ascertain that in real time.

I will try to say more tomorrow, now.

Best regards








Edited by Kamin (06/06/12 05:17 PM)
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#1909675 - 06/06/12 08:49 PM Re: Advice about unison tuning. [Re: plns]
Weiyan Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/11
Posts: 773
Loc: Hong Kong
Thank you for all the advice.

Tuned some notes. With slower rhythm, try to move at the same time attack. Not sure I do it correctly. Final check with longer sustain.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/unison-7-june-2012

Tuned it 2 by 2: Left string with center, then right string with center.

As you hear there are "noise", its

Cicadidae singing.

Thank you!


Edited by Weiyan (06/06/12 08:54 PM)
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#1909682 - 06/06/12 09:02 PM Re: Advice about unison tuning. [Re: Johnkie]
Weiyan Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/11
Posts: 773
Loc: Hong Kong
Originally Posted By: Johnkie
Weiyan :

I think you are playing the notes too repeatedly and too quickly to enable yourself to hear when the unison is spot on. Try playing the note only once, and let it sustain while you work with the pin ... if the unison is still off, then repeat the process until it becomes pure. The speed at which you tune doesn't give you any chance of listening to hear any "beats" less than one might get from a rough "pitch raise" type of tuning. What I'm trying to say is that if a unison is out by less than 1 beat per second, then it's pointless sounding the note for less than 1 second, and if it is even closer ... say 1/4 beat per second ... then you will need to listen to the sustained note even longer. Many tuners get into a bad habit of double striking when tuning unisons, and when tuning octaves, they strike the bottom note first before the octave above .... this tends to confuse the ear and leads to loose octaves. Play the two note of the octave together and listen while manipulating the wrestpin ... this gives a much clearer picture of what is going on.


Johnkie,

Thank you. I am not sure if I understand your writing well. Is it hear the long sustain note, then tune it in nest blow, then hear the sustain again. Otherwise may be tune it when beat occur. For example, if there is a 1 bps beat, then tune it after 1 second.

If you could post a sound file is great helpful.

Thank you.
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#1909814 - 06/07/12 04:15 AM Re: Advice about unison tuning. [Re: Weiyan]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Weiyan
Thank you for all the advice.

Tuned some notes. With slower rhythm, try to move at the same time attack. Not sure I do it correctly. Final check with longer sustain.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/unison-7-june-2012

Tuned it 2 by 2: Left string with center, then right string with center.

As you hear there are "noise", its

Cicadidae singing.

Thank you!


Nice Cicadidae (cigale) ! Are there people that have some in their homes too ?
On the G , you stop the tone too early in regard of what you are tuning (the dwell is strong on that note so you can tune longer) , you tune a good begin of the tone but then in the second doublet, as the high range of partials are not really tuned you can hear them making a rainbow of coupling one following the other, at the edge of a moaning)

in your tuning unisons, I rarely hear you tuning since the attack, while it is almost good (I talk of the moment where you manipulate the hammer) at 2:34 . I would tune that note playing it 1 times/second so to catch soon in the sound production. You may play at an more even rhythm (even if it is better) . Force yourself in even rhythm even if it sound more difficult. At some point you can listen longer, but that playing rhythm is very important (and at the same strength)

For the E, I imagine tuning that note at fast rythm 1/second, or slow rhythm once every 2 seconds, but in both cases the steady rhythm is important.(it may be broken from time to time if it begin to be boring/sleeping)

It is important for the ear, that can adjust to the attack moment better. and fro the hand coordination at the lever.

I dont know how to explain the effect you may be listening for, as you are well cleaning the tone, but still without working the attack enough on the first notes.

I hear you wait for a thickening of the tone, with a more even rhythm you should be focused more easily.

Better job on note F since 2:34 , more synchronized to me. You are almost there but still something escapes to you (may be only due to your playing a little timidly).

May be you should play more frankly , in any case for listening the the note totally you may need a little more strength. I am sorry, but as I am a pianist I can hear your playing hand is somewhat restrained, you can have a more full tone without stress if you stay quiet and calm as you are there , but allow more for your playing arm to land in the bottom of the keyboard. that will fullfill the tone and will give you more things to listen to.

Use more of your natural weight to tone the note. the thick tone will be stronger and longer, and the attack will be enlarged and not hard on your ears.

Some extreme demonstration : At some point if you use something to play the note, as a wood rod with some felt on it, you can hear how the tone can be strong without being really harsh, as this will be a natural move to allow the arm to fall with that thing in hand, that could explain the success of some "key strikers" that have helped some tuners a few years ago. Unfortunately it strikes always too strong and we need to play softly often so it is not easy to use that goodie, also it takes out any tactile feedback...

The hand may play the note with authority, frankly, even when playing lightly. Piano tuners have often a good tone when they play because they are used to produce a somewhat frank tone.

Yes that F at 3:30 is about perfect, I dont hear much tone projection but it sound clean (then part of the tone is lost in the recording)

About tactile feedback, I suggest you train to feel the key tinkling under your finger in some bass notes ( in the 2 strings regions there are generally enough. Then try to focus on that sensation while going up in the keyboard, and try to notice how tuning can change that effect (on 2 strings) .

I am not saying we should us that as a primary mean to control our unison, but that tinkling is perceived under the finger, even when it is light, and my guess is that I am used to that perception and I use it while tuning, in complement of the ears of course.

on that F, you are staying too long may be you miss the point partly because you are not listening to the thickening of the fundamental enough . In the end it is not bad, but your last doublet may have a 0.4 cts difference that makes it tone a little nasal.
To me the tone of that note is stabilizing/projecting at 1/6 sec, that is the moment where it can be tuned (as you do at some moment)

Recordings are compressed (plus due to the "cigales") and may be real situation is very different from what I hear...

Try to strive for a very even playing, rhythmically


That F, I would have played it twice a second to get the projection and body, then once a second to open it and clean the partials.


I'll try to record the same note.

When I tune I am regulating the strength of the note I play and the speed at which it is played, depending of the instrument, its voice, the acoustics of the room, and the quality of the rendering.

Even rhythmical playing for tuning, sharp blows to move the string or to control. one shot playing to listen to the final result (but not to manipulate the hammer that I want to move only during a certain frame of tone)

Yes it is possible to tune in the last seconds of sustain, but only when the foundation is set correctly.

With a note that have 4 seconds sustained tone I would not care about a beat in 4 or 5 seconds as soon as this is not heard as a beat There are probably plenty of unheard beats in an unison, if one want to see the frequencies shifts, so I believe what we are focusing on is the coupling quality and delay.
Unstable partials are "straightened" it may be some physical effect due to the bridge/soundboard, or even air, influencing the way the frequencies play together.

The problem is that the "projection" of the tone sound like the beginning of a beat, while it is not, so one have to learn to recognize both.








Edited by Kamin (06/07/12 07:34 AM)
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#1909938 - 06/07/12 10:58 AM Re: Advice about unison tuning. [Re: plns]
Weiyan Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/11
Posts: 773
Loc: Hong Kong
Issac,

I really controlled the play hand to play softly, may be the key not touch the keybed. The F3, G3 are very difficult to tune. They always sound strange.

I am going on practice unisons as well as CHAS.
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#1910586 - 06/08/12 02:57 PM Re: Advice about unison tuning. [Re: plns]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Hello Weiyan , here is a little record I made to show you what I mean with rhythmically playing.

Here the exercise was (from notes who where not particularly badly tuned) , to focus only on the energy sensation I talked of, the tinkling of the key under the finger, and use that to get the more strong one, not paying attention (not much, and not focusing) on any beat or partials.

This should be better on a good grand indeed, but it may prove that if one focus on the envelope, the coupling the energy treatment, the tone can clean by itself. we are not obliged to focus on a partial or to try to get rid of beats, this is done naturally (the ear of course is doing that I don't pretend it could be done without them, but trying to focus on the playing hand more than on the listening the result can be attained too. That is the same when Alfredo say he focus on the pin torque behavior and don't listen "really"

I believe that it can be heard that to raise the energy I am obliged to work the tone almost immediately (you can hear the change of tone during the first tenths of seconds of stabilization (if not milliseconds)

http://soundcloud.com/olek-4/unison-attack

That exercise oblige the tuner to have a very quiet and sensitive hand. Then the tone is more musical, it is not hard on the ear despite the many repetitions...

No "cigales there, in fact there are even less birds than last year, or they would have eat yet all the cherries wink
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#1910865 - 06/09/12 03:36 AM Re: Advice about unison tuning. [Re: plns]
Weiyan Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/11
Posts: 773
Loc: Hong Kong
Cigale can not keep in home. They sing in summer.

This is today's unison exercise:
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/unisons-9-june-2012

Thank you.

Have nice weekend.
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#1910931 - 06/09/12 08:57 AM Re: Advice about unison tuning. [Re: plns]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Hello Weiyan, excellent !
you have some very good unisons there. (I will say more on note by note basis later, but yet some notes show the good thickening since the attack and they couple strong when the 3 strings are heard)

Your progresses are amazing (I would say may be a little early to open a bottle of champaign as you did at 1:15 , but well, I am not opposed to that , cheers !) wink

The rhythm and the moment you tune are far better, the touch seem to correspond well to what I show, (try to not accelerate too much, but it sound good, probable that this F was a little difficult, hence faster rhythm)

Did you feel the energy in your playing hand ? (in the medium and treble that is mostly imagination, but in the basses that is easy)

Now I believe you have all the wanted foundation, beginning with that full tone if you wish to listen to the way the higher partials are acting in the spectra you can adjust them, modifying the global tone from the energy focused on the attack as here to an energy slightly delayed (suffice to tune a hair later) I am proud of your work !

A comment : important, when you work from a note which is too false and not really set, from the start, I hear you use the "test blow" too early.
The idea to have real optimum pin set is to tune up to the good moment (from above, go a very very tiny hair under it, just enough for the pin elasticity to raise back the note when you leave the hammer. Then you can use the test blow to verify.

Seem to me that you test blow exactly at the wanted pitch or a hair above (so you cannot verify that the pin is set to its optimum) .

The way I did in my example I am unsure it is heard but if I push on the lever, the note raise, if I pull on it it lower but hardly (it raise more than it lower) At the level of mastering of the hammer you are you can begin to work on that more, I believe. ! Thank you for your willingness ! you are running !

Best regards ! Isaac
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#1910934 - 06/09/12 09:01 AM Re: Advice about unison tuning. [Re: plns]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
ALso, for stability, when tuning unisons chromatically like that it is good to tune the lefst side of the note above, before tuning the right side of the note you tune. It will move less then (eventually it will not move)
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#1910967 - 06/09/12 10:17 AM Re: Advice about unison tuning. [Re: Olek]
jim ialeggio Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 746
Loc: shirley, MA
Originally Posted By: Kamin

The way I did in my example I am unsure it is heard but if I push on the lever, the note raise, if I pull on it it lower but hardly (it raise more than it lower) At the level of mastering of the hammer you are you can begin to work on that more, I believe.


Isaac,

I'm working this aspect of the stability, ie lever manipulation to proof the pin/string set.

In the quote above "push on the lever, the note raises"?? Are you tuning left handed, or is this stated backwards?

In any case, the aspect of the set that I am concentrating on at this point is the final lowering motion, where one brings the pitch to target or perhaps just a little low of target. You describe this as intended to release torque within the pin and I would say front segment.

In tight pin blocks, I finds this final move somewhat hard to read. Not pitch-wise, as I get it exactly where I want it, but reading the position of the pin and foot is not at all clear in these tight blocks.

Any comments on this difficulty?

Jim Ialeggio
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#1910977 - 06/09/12 11:02 AM Re: Advice about unison tuning. [Re: jim ialeggio]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Hello Jim,

thanks for your feedback.
I agree hard too tight blocks are sometime "impossible" to tune.

Assume we talk of vertical pianos there...
That make me recall how we , as "floor tuners" where jerking and nudging like heck those new pianos, expecting the torque to lower a little and the tuning to be easier next time (it works to some point)

In those blocks may be you can tune from below with a hard blow that is overtensing the string (if it is difficult top get the torque from the pin, a hard blow will send it to the wire segment in front of it)

Then if you need or want to have that pin torque I believe you are obliged to allow for it only in an upper region of the pin, the bottom being way too difficult to master.

In any case , the first result I want is to have that damned bottom of the pin where I want (where I imagine it must be)
Then etablishing the tension relation in front segment/pin region can be done by any mean.

Very slow pull on a very tight block ? the idea is that the pin is so much torqued it eventually move too much when it "c can move too much when it "cracks" in the block (the impression is to have some sort of long stiff spring that I manipulate by bending it so at some point it brakes the friction... but you know all that)

I am right handed, and I use a fair abuse of putting pressure on one side or the other of the hole , for instance if a pin is moving too easily, I put pressure on the top/right side of the hole so to brake the upper region of the pin a little until the bottom is moving (also using different lever position so to torque more or less the pin )

On a very tight block, today I would may be try to hold the lever at 10:00 - a left handed tuner is advantaged there as the effort is not good in that position if you are right handed.
That posture "unlock" immediately any previous pin setting and allow to work more directly the bottom of the pin (but I find it inadequate for the final pin setting as all the force /pressure is applied directly on the "bed" of the tuning pin)

I am right handed and I tune at 13:00 14:00, more on the right side with pianos having wood bushings, (more twist to the pin) more vertical on pianos that have none , then I use reverse torque and pin setting mostly with the lever vertical.

When I say push or pull, I talk of bending the pin, not at all a turning pressure . Lets say the lever is vertical, wen I push (front) on it with a finger, the tone raise, then back, if I pull toward me, the tone lowers, but less than in the other direction. I may be able to move those 2 directions, if not the note is prone to raise after sometime, it is the mean to control the tension of the pin and the one of the front segment.

There are differences in pin steel, some are really a tad feeling mushy while others are really springy; the wood in the block is also certainly more or less "springy".
Anyway the optimal setting of the pin is clearly heard as the tone is cleaned ans strengthened. This is very easy to demonstrate. In the end that plays a role in the speed at which ghosting is done (hence "crispness of the tone", or the attack of tone)

I was said also that if a string raise, this is less noticed than the opposite (concert)...

Best regards

Isaac
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#1911293 - 06/10/12 04:35 AM Re: Advice about unison tuning. [Re: plns]
Weiyan Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/11
Posts: 773
Loc: Hong Kong
Thank you for all valuable advice.

With an authenticated left play hand, I can experience the slow pull technique is this video.



Edited by Weiyan (06/10/12 04:36 AM)
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#1911401 - 06/10/12 11:49 AM Re: Advice about unison tuning. [Re: Olek]
jim ialeggio Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 746
Loc: shirley, MA
Originally Posted By: Kamin
When I say push or pull, I talk of bending the pin, not at all a turning pressure . Lets say the lever is vertical, wen I push (front) on it with a finger, the tone raise, then back, if I pull toward me, the tone lowers, but less than in the other direction. I may be able to move those 2 directions, if not the note is prone to raise after sometime, it is the mean to control the tension of the pin and the one of the front segment.


Isaac,

So you are talking here(I think)about "proving" the position of the pin and string without the forceful test blow. This is an approach that I've always been partial to, and which I've tried to develop in my technique.

You are saying that in "proving" the set, on a vertical, a slight push would raise the tone slightly, and a slight pull would lower the tone, but not as much as the pull.

In my own approach to this, which is still developing, I have been aiming at a position where a slight pull or push, (that is a force which adds no clockwise or counterclockwise torque to force, only bending...flexing), produces no change in pitch either up or down. How does the slight change in pitch that you describe "prove" the set of the pin/string?

Jim Ialeggio
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www.grandpianosolutions.com
advanced soundboard and action redesigns
978 425-9026
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#1911414 - 06/10/12 12:12 PM Re: Advice about unison tuning. [Re: Olek]
Inlanding Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/05/09
Posts: 1744
Loc: Colorado
Issac~
To add to Jim's inquiry.
I've seen the "bending" of the pin to ever so slightly raise/lower the pitch used in many cases. It does have an affect on the pitch.

I've also seen the technique abused to the point it creates a direct "flagpoling" effect of its own, prematurely enlarging the holes in the pinblock. The string originates towards the bottom of the pin, so there's not as much bending as one might think. Some tuning pins are more brittle and some are more pliable. It seems one must be careful and proceed with caution while using that technique. What say you? wink

Glen
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#1911423 - 06/10/12 12:21 PM Re: Advice about unison tuning. [Re: plns]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
jim I say pitch for simplification. If 2 strings are open you hear the tone changing more when pushing than when pulling. It may come where it was origimally in the rnd.
frankly I will use that check more on grands pianos, as on verticals the segment of strong is short and I can feel how much torque is in the pin more easily.

I did not try to evaluate how much the 'pitch " is changing. it may be very little. also the check is used if you unsure on a string when refining unisons. The wire may be more free immediately when you are tuning, probably it settle in time and the test ust is lrss effiient then..

Also there are different types of pins.
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#1911427 - 06/10/12 12:29 PM Re: Advice about unison tuning. [Re: Inlanding]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Inlanding
Issac~
To add to Jim's inquiry.
I've seen the "bending" of the pin to ever so slightly raise/lower the pitch used in many cases. It does have an affect on the pitch.

I've also seen the technique abused to the point it creates a direct "flagpoling" effect of its own, prematurely enlarging the holes in the pinblock. The string originates towards the bottom of the pin, so there's not as much bending as one might think. Some tuning pins are more brittle and some are more pliable. It seems one must be careful and proceed with caution while using that technique. What say you? wink


Absolutely Glen, thanks for saying so. It may be seen as a somewhat advanced technique, if the pin does not allow much effect better leave it aside.
also refrain to the tendency to use that to go a hair lowet, for instance.

But the brakink of the pin on a lesser important part if the hole may be useful in low torque situations where we want just a little more and the pin is well in its "bed"
The main advantage of slow pull is that it gives you a so clear reading of the pin position that those tests are less necessary.
Glen
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#1911428 - 06/10/12 12:32 PM Re: Advice about unison tuning. [Re: plns]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
sorry I write on a telephone. The worst for the block is the permanent flagpolling and jerking. it can provide you a neat control on the pin motion by breaking friction, but the hole is 'sanded' by the tuning pin. If I need to jerk I push on the top-right a little, and I try to avoid anyway ;)4
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#1911434 - 06/10/12 12:42 PM Re: Advice about unison tuning. [Re: Olek]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Jim sorry, It put in light the elasticity relation between the pin / block and the wire.
if you have the same tone move up or down, your pin is not stressed by the wire it is in a neutal position. many tuners aim to that, but then there is no reserve against a too strong blow.
also I imagine the string is keeping the tuning pin in its torqued posture. and it is not imagination, as this sort of setting is very hard to move when tuning again. it doenot move down it is often better to torque a little more to unlock the setup.
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#1911456 - 06/10/12 01:33 PM Re: Advice about unison tuning. [Re: Olek]
jim ialeggio Offline
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Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 746
Loc: shirley, MA
Originally Posted By: Kamin

if you have the same tone move up or down, your pin is not stressed by the wire it is in a neutal position. many tuners aim to that, but then there is no reserve against a too strong blow.


OK

Originally Posted By: Kamin

also I imagine the string is keeping the tuning pin in its torqued posture. and it is not imagination, as this sort of setting is very hard to move when tuning again. it does not move down it is often better to torque a little more to unlock the setup.


Don't quite get this. Are you referring to the neutral position I described, or the torqued position you described?

If you are referring to the torqued position you referred to, are you following the feel of the foot in block, rather than the position of the final pitch?

Just for clarity, I'm referring to pitch as a frequency, which, in my take, when approaching the sweet tonal spot is a very very tiny change in frequency.

Jim Ialeggio
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#1911465 - 06/10/12 01:56 PM Re: Advice about unison tuning. [Re: plns]
Olek Offline
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Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
I want the foot a hair too high so I can stress (torque) the pin.
there is no other way to ascertain than the pin is at a suffisent torque to be in equilibrium with the string, than to check with that method. In fact that may mean than the pin is taking some 70 kg of torque so the wire can pull its side with similar strenght.

I will try to describe that better but the idea that the styring hold the tuning pin in pllace is accepted. As said some tuning pins are more soft than others. and I suppose also that the wood resiliency may play a role there.
the slow pull, because you work with bend springs is raising well the sensityvity on that aspect.
I agree sometime the pitch does not seem to move. it is probably because the front segment is not zs bended as it could, then it will adbsorb your pin flex.
if the pin moves soon when turned the torque is low possibly I noticed it raise after a few compldete manipulations to obtain the torqued lock. possibly some pins are so s soft they only can be torqued minimally...
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#1911571 - 06/10/12 06:35 PM Re: Advice about unison tuning. [Re: Olek]
jim ialeggio Offline
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Registered: 06/03/05
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Loc: shirley, MA
Originally Posted By: Kamin
I want the foot a hair too high so I can stress (torque) the pin.
there is no other way to ascertain than the pin is at a sufficient torque to be in equilibrium with the string, than to check with that method. In fact that may mean than the pin is taking some 70 kg of torque so the wire can pull its side with similar strength.


Hmmm... I was thinking that the pin/front segment would be stable when it was, as I visualized it, "at rest"...meaning pin no residual torque, and front segment no excess or slackness in tension in relation to the speaking length.

But, it occurs to me that there is no such thing as a pin, under string tension, with no residual torque. My sense of the pin "at rest" really needs to consider "at rest" as meaning foot locked, as you say just slightly suggesting the sharp side, and pin shank in a state of loaded tension, to resist the torque that the string will impose naturally.

...OR, in other words, the pin, by the very nature of the forces involved will always have a twisted differential between the foot and the upper part of the shank. Your take is to install the torque which will naturally develop anyway.

...have to chew on this...

Jim Ialeggio
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Jim Ialeggio
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advanced soundboard and action redesigns
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#1911661 - 06/10/12 11:45 PM Re: Advice about unison tuning. [Re: plns]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
That is exactly how it goes, yes wink I tuned " neutral " for years, with less stability. Difficult yo notice if the neutral posture is well done. also the test blow provide part of that, a little less firm and more uneven than if done from the start.
I would tend to think, as you say, the pin get more set in time than when it was tuned if the piano is played if the setting is neutral to begin with.

I noticed that after concerts with tuning pins that where harder to move.

differential, Thanks for the term wink

You will notice a difference in tone (individual strings) between both setups


Edited by Kamin (06/11/12 04:55 AM)
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#1911769 - 06/11/12 08:40 AM Re: Advice about unison tuning. [Re: Olek]
jim ialeggio Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 746
Loc: shirley, MA
Originally Posted By: Kamin
Difficult to notice if the neutral posture is well done.


Regarding reading whether the pre-torqued pin set is well done, as opposed to the neutral set pin:

It seems to me that the neutral set is quite easy to read. If the string pitch does not raise or lower with gentle flex of the pin that would seem to be an indication of a good neutral set.

What feedback are you using to "prove" the pre-torqued set?

With a poorly set pin, when you flex the pin, the pitch will move up and down similar to the up and down pitch movement you describe proves the pre-torqued pin set. So that really doesn't seem to me to be a reliable "proof" of the pin set.

Unless you are saying that the pitch movement is close to neutral, but very, very minor pitch movement, perceived as change in tone can be induced by the pin flex, and the amount that flex can lower the pitch is much less than the amount pin flex can raise the pitch.

Jim Ialeggio


Edited by jim ialeggio (06/11/12 08:47 AM)
_________________________
Jim Ialeggio
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advanced soundboard and action redesigns
978 425-9026
Shirley Center, MA

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#1911777 - 06/11/12 08:58 AM Re: Advice about unison tuning. [Re: plns]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
In fact I tried yesterday to measure (with tunelab on a cell phone so the precision is not enough) the difference in pitch with the change when pushing pulling on the lever.
It may be around 0.1 ct may be 0.2 , it is difficult to read as the pitch fluctuates too much.

I any case the difference is heard as a tonal change as soon there are 2 strings sounding, with only one string it cannot be heard, the ear is not precise enough.

I know no other method to check the torqued condition. If the tone raise too much or too easily, chances are that there is too much residual torque left. Also if it is not possible to move down.

You have to develop a feel for it, I am sorry no better mean than I know. That said if when you push/pull the lever the tone does not move at all , something escapes me, usually it does (again, only noticed with another string sounding).

When tuning after I am well "in" the piano I just imagine what the tuning pin is doing, the test is used sometime but certainly not at each note.

I believe that if slow pull have been used the tension in the front segment is high enough to have an audible reaction. If the pitch is "jumped" by successive steps the control on the whole lenght of the wire is not as good (that is the main advantage of slow pull, which is, to be in good contact with the full lenght of the wire at any moment) .

There may be a higher difference is string tension than I imagine, with the slow pull vs more fast method, as the reaction of the wire is really up to the pin.

Then it is easier to ascertain how much stress is in the pin compared to the wire.

I like the idea "the wire hold the pin in place" things can be seen like that, to me.

If your train on a very hard block it may be a little difficult indeed.

All the best

ISaac
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