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#1904372 - 05/28/12 11:41 AM Re: The Shout!House [Re: BDB]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4217
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
Originally Posted By: BDB
If they make enough money from the pianos to replace them when they need to, the pianos have done their job, which is, after all, to entertain people.

I hope they reinforce the lids for that sort of use, especially if they are particle board. If they break with someone on them, it could cause injury.


Yep. These pianos are used as tools in the business. Like any other often used tool, they will be used up prematurely.

I would agree with the safety issue. Big liability if someone goes through and then through the sounding board…..
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#1904401 - 05/28/12 12:38 PM Re: The Shout!House [Re: OperaTenor]
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21687
Loc: Oakland
Especially if someone gets sliced up like with a cheese cutter!
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#1904425 - 05/28/12 01:22 PM Re: The Shout!House [Re: BDB]
TunerJeff Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/22/11
Posts: 482
Loc: Oregon Coast
The only option would seem to be living with it...given the extreme use these pianos are getting.

But...if there is a rebuilder in the area who specializes in rescaling, you might try lowering the tension on the instruments, and get away from the breaking strain on the strings a bit.

I had an extreme breakage problem with one artist, all bass strings, and discussed this with JDGrandt in Canada. They suggested a rescaled bass. They moved the tension down, and the diameter of the core wire up, with a lighter wrap. No more broken strings.

A similiar approach to the plain wire might help. There is a balance between weight/size/tension in every scale, but maybe you can reduce your breakage by rescaling the pianos.

Worth a thought, anyhoo!
_________________________
Jeffrey T. Hickey, RPT
Oregon Coast Piano Services
TunerJeff440@aol.com

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#1904428 - 05/28/12 01:25 PM Re: The Shout!House [Re: OperaTenor]
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 3919
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
Now THAT might really break some strings!
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Jurgen Goering
Piano Forte Supply
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#1904650 - 05/28/12 08:45 PM Re: The Shout!House [Re: TunerJeff]
kpembrook Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/10
Posts: 1312
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: TunerJeff
But...if there is a rebuilder in the area who specializes in rescaling, you might try lowering the tension on the instruments, and get away from the breaking strain on the strings a bit.

I had an extreme breakage problem with one artist, all bass strings, and discussed this with JDGrandt in Canada. They suggested a rescaled bass. They moved the tension down, and the diameter of the core wire up, with a lighter wrap. No more broken strings.

A similiar approach to the plain wire might help. There is a balance between weight/size/tension in every scale, but maybe you can reduce your breakage by rescaling the pianos.

Worth a thought, anyhoo!


Contrary to popular opinion, reducing tension -- if done by reducing the wire size-- will not reduce the % breaking point of the string. In other words if a #22 string is at 75% breaking point, then changing it to a #18 string will result in no change in the breaking point, although there will be less tension on the system and the soundboard may be freer to vibrate (or may not, depending). You can only reduce breaking percentage for a given note by changing the speaking length.
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Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair

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#1904851 - 05/29/12 05:53 AM Re: The Shout!House [Re: kpembrook]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7901
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: kpembrook
Originally Posted By: TunerJeff
But...if there is a rebuilder in the area who specializes in rescaling, you might try lowering the tension on the instruments, and get away from the breaking strain on the strings a bit.

I had an extreme breakage problem with one artist, all bass strings, and discussed this with JDGrandt in Canada. They suggested a rescaled bass. They moved the tension down, and the diameter of the core wire up, with a lighter wrap. No more broken strings.

A similiar approach to the plain wire might help. There is a balance between weight/size/tension in every scale, but maybe you can reduce your breakage by rescaling the pianos.

Worth a thought, anyhoo!


Contrary to popular opinion, reducing tension -- if done by reducing the wire size-- will not reduce the % breaking point of the string. In other words if a #22 string is at 75% breaking point, then changing it to a #18 string will result in no change in the breaking point, although there will be less tension on the system and the soundboard may be freer to vibrate (or may not, depending). You can only reduce breaking percentage for a given note by changing the speaking length.


I dont agree, it reduce, not in a very significant way (about 1 to 3%) also the tensile strenght of thinner wire is higher (due to more annealing ?) .
Why would thinner wire tend to break more ? may be only because the pianist would play stronger to have more tone probably (while the thinner wire gives less)

I agree that some of the pianists may be hard on the pianos, and try to break strings, but not all, then if the hammers are accepting hard impacts and the tone is thickened, strings are less prone to break.
As the pianos are miked it is always possible to push the top of the spectra.

Indeed not the same than a music school ! (but dancing on the lids does not break strings usually !)

In Jazz clubs here some tuners keep the pianos in shape well, others tend to break strings, the musicians are the same in all clubs, so this may be related to the way the piano is maintained in shape. (also the design of the piano will be helping or working against you)



Edited by Kamin (05/29/12 06:00 AM)
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#1904944 - 05/29/12 09:48 AM Re: The Shout!House [Re: OperaTenor]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4217
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada


Under section 3 on size strength.

Maximum Tensile Strength
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"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1905190 - 05/29/12 05:53 PM Re: The Shout!House [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7901
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Silverwood Pianos


Under section 3 on size strength.

Maximum Tensile Strength


Merci ! that is interesting..
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It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#1905349 - 05/30/12 01:33 AM Re: The Shout!House [Re: BDB]
OperaTenor Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2413
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
Originally Posted By: BDB
I hope they reinforce the lids for that sort of use, especially if they are particle board. If they break with someone on them, it could cause injury.


If you look at the second photo in the OP, there are 1X4's screwed into the underside of each lid. Even so, the lids(laminated, not particle board) nevertheless flex so much the lid hinge screw holes get hogged out on a regular basis. In less than two years, I've shimmed those holes three times.

What surprises me is that the legs haven't blown out from under them.
_________________________
Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
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#1905352 - 05/30/12 01:37 AM Re: The Shout!House [Re: OperaTenor]
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21687
Loc: Oakland
The legs are strong enough, as long as they are on tight.
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Semipro Tech

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#1905353 - 05/30/12 01:38 AM Re: The Shout!House [Re: OperaTenor]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7901
Loc: France
Imagine they put the piano on those 3 wheels dollies you are so much using !!!! NOw that would be fun !

About liability, I suggest the people who pass a night there and have a BIG headache on the next day ! now that is sort of a concern !



Edited by Kamin (05/30/12 01:40 AM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#1905649 - 05/30/12 04:10 PM Re: The Shout!House [Re: BDB]
OperaTenor Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2413
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
Originally Posted By: BDB
The legs are strong enough, as long as they are on tight.


I guess that's a basic assumption, but I can't help but wonder if they were designed to hold an extra 400-500 lbs.
_________________________
Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
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#1905689 - 05/30/12 05:31 PM Re: The Shout!House [Re: OperaTenor]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4217
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada

The three grand legs could easily hold twice the weight they are rated for.
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
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http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1910574 - 06/08/12 02:43 PM Re: The Shout!House [Re: OperaTenor]
OperaTenor Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2413
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
Ah well, it's all moot now.

Two Brodmann 5'9" grands are set to be delivered Tuesday. I just had a talk with the dealer, and illuminated him on the future these pianos face. I'm going to be on hand at the delivery to disable the soft close mechanism on the fallboards, as well as help in whatever other way.

I wonder what will become of the old pianos...
_________________________
Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
[url=www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind]www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind[/url]

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#1910589 - 06/08/12 03:02 PM Re: The Shout!House [Re: OperaTenor]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7901
Loc: France
I would say they can be repaired as they are not so old, but indeed one may be ready to alot of work and keys may have front to back motion, capo bars are probably well marred.

New strings/agrafe, repair of the keyboards, all action work, and of course the cases.

Then the dealer can present them as "the famous pianos from the Stout house" and sell them a high price (as I have seen people buying conservatory instruments believing it was a guarantee for quality wink
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#1910652 - 06/08/12 05:16 PM Re: The Shout!House [Re: OperaTenor]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4217
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
A long time back at Cal State Long Beach an entire cement roof of a building collapsed and landed on top of a Steinway Model D. The legs held, and so did the internal structure.
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1912487 - 06/12/12 07:47 PM Re: The Shout!House [Re: OperaTenor]
OperaTenor Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2413
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
Today was new piano day at the Shout House. The old pianos received more gentle treatment today than they ever had on stage, and have been moved into storage, awaiting a decision on what to do with them(a suggestion from one of the players to charge for hammer swings to demolish them was rejected, thankfully). Some of us were a little melancholy to see them go; they had been the center of so much fun for so long...



When I showed up this morning, the floor had been cleared, and the ancillary equipment had been removed from the old pianos.



The stage left piano in the process of being moved out. I removed the fallboards because there was nothing retaining them.



We found these souvenirs stuck on the bottom of each key bed. Yes, it's gum, and each side had a trash can less than five feet from where they sat and played.



The future new stage left Brodmann coming off the truck. The road crown was pretty steep, so I played the role of tip over cushion.



I had a calm, rational discussion with these guys about lyre-tipping. Given their explanation of how they see modern piano construction, and their use of the lyre bar, I have to say I was okay with how they did it.



This was my first opportunity to really look one of these pianos over, and I have to say I was pleasantly surprised by their quality of build.



The new pianos in place, with the lids in the foreground ready for reinforcement. They're going to install rib-like supports on the underside of the lids, and from the looks of the way they're doing it, I think they'll work well. The movers were cringing as the owners went about installing the ribs, especially after going to all the trouble they did to protect the finish of the new pianos.

Those new lids are set to be danced on in about three hours...
_________________________
Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
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#1912548 - 06/12/12 10:31 PM Re: The Shout!House [Re: OperaTenor]
Eric Gloo Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/28/01
Posts: 1251
Loc: Richfield Springs, New York
Very cool! Let us know when the first new piano string breaks!
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Piano Technician
Certified Dampp-Chaser Installer
Richfield Springs, New York

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#1912611 - 06/13/12 12:39 AM Re: The Shout!House [Re: Eric Gloo]
OperaTenor Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2413
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
Originally Posted By: Eric Gloo
Very cool! Let us know when the first new piano string breaks!


I will indeed.

We checked out features like the soft close mechanism for the fallboards to see if we needed to disable them(not for now - the fallboards seem to slam up just fine), and probably going to remove the bumpers on the lids so the dancers don't trip over them.
_________________________
Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
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#1912618 - 06/13/12 01:18 AM Re: The Shout!House [Re: OperaTenor]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7901
Loc: France
good health problems for the movers! lyre tipping also only for dollies there. I would not argue with those guys for long however )
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#1912620 - 06/13/12 01:21 AM Re: The Shout!House [Re: OperaTenor]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7901
Loc: France
dont tell us they dance, they only move their bottom. no danger at all for the lid,
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#1912673 - 06/13/12 05:32 AM Re: The Shout!House [Re: OperaTenor]
wayne walker Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/08
Posts: 515
Loc: Windsor,Nova Scotia Canada
It scares me when I see movers move pianos with little or no padding on the piano.


Edited by wayne walker (06/13/12 05:32 AM)
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Walker's Piano Service
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#1912828 - 06/13/12 12:15 PM Re: The Shout!House [Re: OperaTenor]
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21687
Loc: Oakland
Padding is slippery. It should only be used when needed.
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#1912932 - 06/13/12 04:02 PM Re: The Shout!House [Re: OperaTenor]
OperaTenor Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2413
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
They were told not to worry too much about padding the old pianos. After all, people had been dancing on them for years.

I thought the new ones were sufficiently padded.
_________________________
Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
[url=www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind]www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind[/url]

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#1912935 - 06/13/12 04:03 PM Re: The Shout!House [Re: Olek]
OperaTenor Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2413
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
Originally Posted By: Kamin
dont tell us they dance, they only move their bottom. no danger at all for the lid,


Oh no, Isaac, they DANCE. At times, the pianists climb on top and jump up and down on them......SIMULTANEOUSLY.
_________________________
Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
[url=www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind]www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind[/url]

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#1912939 - 06/13/12 04:07 PM Re: The Shout!House [Re: Olek]
OperaTenor Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2413
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
Originally Posted By: Kamin
good health problems for the movers! lyre tipping also only for dollies there. I would not argue with those guys for long however )



Ha! The movers, who were quite experienced, were huffing and puffing by the end of it. They said they were used to getting a break after moving one piano - after all, they usually move one at a time - and on this job they were moving four at once.

No argument, though. It was all congenial.
_________________________
Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
[url=www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind]www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind[/url]

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#1923161 - 07/05/12 08:31 PM Re: The Shout!House [Re: OperaTenor]
OperaTenor Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2413
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
Today was my first day back after being in Taiwan for 2-1/2 weeks, and my first tuning on the new pianos(they're Brodmann CE 175's, BTW).



As I expected, no broken strings yet, since they're still so new. I was pleasantly surprised at how smoothly the pins turn on these pianos; they were a pleasure to tune.

I gave them a good cleaning and buffing when I was done. There was dust, sticky rings from drinks being set on them, and of course, show prints from the dancing, already. The piano in the foreground is clean; the one in the background yet to be cleaned.

_________________________
Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
[url=www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind]www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind[/url]

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#1923162 - 07/05/12 08:33 PM Re: The Shout!House [Re: OperaTenor]
OperaTenor Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2413
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
BTW, in the first photo you can see the ribs attached to the underside of the lid to strengthen it for the dancing. I think they did a much better job this time, and there will be less flexing in the lid(hence less hinge screw stripping).
_________________________
Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
[url=www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind]www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind[/url]

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#1925972 - 07/12/12 07:07 PM Re: The Shout!House [Re: OperaTenor]
OperaTenor Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2413
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
Back in today for my second week on the new pianos.

And. They. Already. Did. It.

One broken bass string in EACH piano.

Damn...
_________________________
Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
[url=www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind]www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind[/url]

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#1925989 - 07/12/12 07:48 PM Re: The Shout!House [Re: OperaTenor]
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21687
Loc: Oakland
It might be a good idea to order a set of bass strings for these pianos. You can exchange them when they break, and reorder spares afterwards.
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Semipro Tech

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