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>>Someone actually video taped us playing 'Wave' at this last gig so I was able to actually study what was going on
Do share, even if that means the walmart smiley face

Beeboss, the main stylistic thing I was pointing out that when he plays the wide intervals (Intervallic playing), he's able to make some melodic connection rather than just random wide intervals in the scale. It's really hard to hear that. I'm not sure he's actually ever been able to explain that. Anyway, the only point is that he sounds different.

When he played this one below, we actually worked out EVERY device that occurred here. There were so many. He was a compendium on variation. In fact, it was a goal of his to not have a recognizable lick. When he plays in a class setting, I can hear his devices. When he plays out, and he's more focused, it's like a whole different sound. I can't recognize a pattern.

Anyway, the only reason I posted these was because a bunch of us are watching him tonight and I just saw all these on Youtube.

LOL - it's on my Facebook.

Beeboss, now that I listen to Con Alma again, I heard what sounded like Atonal mimicking of Bebop

must be private, I don't see it. ++

You don't need to see it Didn't I just explain how bad I thought it was. LOL.

Beeboss, I'm so focused on your Metronome Exercise. I probably spent hours on it now. Whew!


So tell me how your time historically was and when it did it become really good. And maybe explain what you did to push it up. Or was it just slow improvement the whole way.

Lots of neural connections to build here to eliminate even microsecond time lapses.

I was watching the Pasqua/Erskine concert last night and these guys are just massively accurate in their time.

Glad you are getting into it




When I started playing the piano seriously I was already quite proficient on the bass guitar so it was my technique that initially let down my rhythm on the piano. I could hear how I wanted it to go but just couldn't play it. As my technique got better it caught up with my sense of rhythm and now they get better together, although both will always needs a lot more work.

The only thing to do is to keep working away at all kinds of rhythmic exercises and rhythmic music and gradually the sense of rhythm gets better. Cross rhythms are good, as are different time signatures, or slow pulse exercises, co-ordination exercises or just quality listening. There are a million things to practice but it pays to focus on the basic things and work hardest on the things you are weakest at.

One thing I've started to do is comp a tune, again and again, pushing and slowing down the tempo (I've started to use the Paul Carman tracks) keeping a steady riff all the way through. After a while "things" will start to emerge, a fill and then another. Maybe a lick or two, then back to comping. When I feel that the pulse is within me I start to solo a couple of bars then back to comping, solo a couple of bars more, then back . . . etc.

+1 on cross rhythms.

Thanks for the advice guys.

I think there are two separate issues (or more).

1. Having a fixed internal pulse that's very solid

2. Having the ability to stay with the pulse technically without being distracted by cross rhythms (other subdivisions), and technical issues like fingerings/leaps, Finger 4/5 weaknesses etc.

...At least that's what I noticed. I made some major inroads in #2 and it allowed me to play 16ths and switch to triplets 8 or 16, etc. without losing the beat. But I'm sure, there are microtiming things that are still not withing reach. Like the precision that Beeboss has is very, very advanced.

Now the internal pulse thing is really hard at slow tempos. I was watching Peter Erskine do a slow hit on the cymbals and I bet it would be precise if he had a metronome going. He was in deep concentration though so it must not come easily.

How good is your pulse at the really slow tempos like 50bpm, hitting 2 & 4 only (that's really like 25bpm)?

I am a beginner in comparison with the masters.

Check this out, on a 16 beat cycle...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtRPB8xHP8M&feature=related

I can't even follow where the pulse is a lot of the time.

I truly don't get that. It sounds like it's speeding up and slowing down.

Zakir probably has one of the most developed senses of rhythm on the planet so I think we can safely assume he isn't speeding up. I think what he is doing is messing with the subdivisions of the beat.

This exercise shows what I mean …

Put the metronome on slow (say about 40 bpm). Just click along with the beat. Then put another imaginary click in so you are dividing the beat in 2. Then another, so you are clicking 3. Now try imagining music along with this rhythm, say a fairly slow jazz 3/4 swing. Then try improvising in triplets and duplets and cross rhythms with this 3/4 as the basic pulse. Next change the basic pulse to 4 subdivisions and do the same.
Gradually the change between the imaginary subdivisions becomes easier - it is pretty difficult to do accurately at first.
I think this is what Zakir is doing, dividing up a slow pulse into 7's and 5's etc and then improvising over that imagined pulse using plenty of complex cross rhythms. When he makes the change between subdividing in 7's to 6's it sounds as though it is slowing down, and indeed the sud-divisions are, but the basic slow pulse remains unchanged (although in a lot if Indian music this gradually speeds up as well over the whole performance). I may be wrong though.

I imagined he was doing something like that with such fine subdivisions. But maybe the kind of music is strange to me since the perception of the listener is that you slowed down and you catch up. Not my cup of tea I guess. Must be a cultural thing.

I found a nice Iphone App that was similar to yours. It's called "Time Trainer". I found out I'm getting better as I can hit it right on the money at 40bpm with or without subdivisions. It's great practice since I can do it with my iphone anywhere. As long as people around me don't get upset about the tapping.

I tried interchanging RH/LH like drums. Makes it more difficult. Then at the high end of speed, I tried to see how fast I can tap a single finger on a beat. Pretty hard at 200bpm on a pinky for example.

I did exercises too like change subdivisions (8ths, 16ths, triplet combinations). This used to be so difficult. Not so anymore unless the issue is a higher tempo.

What other exercises would be good? It was addicting. I've spent hours on this.

I also found a better metronome Iphone App that has odd meters.

Time Trainer looks like a cool metronome I'll give it a whirl.

Paradiddles are a great hand interchange training.


Btw: have you guys read this?
JAZZ-TODAY AND TOMORROW (1964)
a round table discussion with:
Cannonball, Dave Brubeck, Dizzy, Mingus, S Kenton, Gerry Mulligan, George Russell, etc.
http://www.cannonball-adderley.com/article/playboy2.htm


Interesting personalities all together, makes me wish I was there!

Paradiddles it is then...

Chris, you dig out some cool stuff! That will be an entertaining read for earlier.

I don't know if I shared this before. These are notes by Lee Konitz. But what's interesting if you scroll down to the bottom, those are handwritten notes by Monk!

https://www.box.com/s/d20f7e7993a2b993b5c2

Well I can't do this without a piano...

I was using the Time Trainer AWAY from the piano.

I'm on vacation all next week so I can focus on Time exercises.

Anybody play 'Con Alma'?

This might be a good one to really dig into.