Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad) Pianoteq
Latest Pianoteq add-on instrument: U4 upright piano
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Topic Options
#1916609 - 06/21/12 08:02 AM C.HA.S. Model - Climates and Comments
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1053
Loc: Sicily - Italy

Hello,

In my opinion, any point of view may find an explanation and may well be considered and argued.

After some serious complaining about the length of the Chas main thread, I thought that any kind of comment may perhaps be housed here.

So I invite you to contribute to this thread, no matter which climate you prefer.

Regards, a.c.

- . - . - . -

Originally Posted By: Tunewerk
Alfredo, do you realize both of these points are invalid/incorrect? I guess not, or you wouldn't have tried to make them.

Originally Posted By: Alfredo
Those numbers prove only that cents relative approximations are not being considered, either due to ignorance or bad faith, you decide.


Do you understand how cents measurements work? If I was to use 'CHAS' relative cents, everything would line up at zero! We would derive no comparison from that, nevermind that types of cents values are irrelevant for obtaining beat rates.

If we used 'relative' cents for inharmonicity measurements, the inharmonicity would magically disappear!

Originally Posted By: Alfredo
And I've never heard of tones producing lower partials than the fundamental; in fact partials (where I live) seem to go in ascending scale order; thus, in my view, expecting top-note coincident 12ths and 15ths going down the numerical scale is pure nonsense.


Well, let's see.. a top note coincident pair of 12ths and 15ths seems to exist plenty fine in my universe:

The 4th partial of the 15th and the 3rd of the 12th below the top note, aligning with the fundamental of the top note, forms a top note pair.

If you look back at my previous posts, and those of others.. I see only one thing happening: them being extremely patient with you, while you continue to peddle your theory without answering questions. You only have created more of a 'smoke screen', which seems to mirror the level of logic in your paper.

There seems to be only one slanderer: you, in defense of your opaque, indecipherable theory.


- . - . - . -

Originally Posted By: Tunewerk
I'm not trying to prove a point or start a thread, I'm trying to make sense of yours. That's why I was here - trying to understand you.

You so far have not specifically answered a single question. You just criticized my questions, to which your criticisms were objectively incorrect.

I see that you prefer a 'climate' of those who don't question or ask you anything objective, but instead accept CHAS with wide-eyed faith.

If you call objective questioning and analysis, not accepting of other 'climates', then you are right! It calls for a clear answer, which you have not been able to provide.

I would think it would be safe to assume at this point, that you cannot provide an answer because it is not there. You must not have an analytic understanding of what you propose in CHAS, only qualitative 'feelings' of what your tuning provides.

That is valid, so you should just state that, and avoid all the superfluous theory that will deceive and mislead people.
_________________________
alfredo

Top
(ad 568) Win a Year Journal Subscription
Win a year subscription to the PTG Journal
#1917905 - 06/24/12 02:15 AM Re: C.HA.S. Model - Climates and Comments [Re: alfredo capurso]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1053
Loc: Sicily - Italy

#1917868 - Yesterday at 10:34 PM
Re: CIRCULAR HARMONIC SYSTEM - CHAS [Re: alfredo capurso]

Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso
I even wonder if 12 offsets, on paper, would work with UT models. I do not know... perhaps in practice?

DoelKees
1000 Post Club Member

..."It works quite well in theory and in practice."...

Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso
In fact, the 2:1 theoretical ratio, every 12 steps, would "double" differences-from-pure-ratio values. Then, if I understand correctly (...not sure at all), in order to expand the tuning beyond 12 UT's values, ETD's adopt an "iH model" (empirically re-shaped (?)) that (in practice) enables to correct and "regularize" the overall tuning curve, also compensating the 2:1 "doubling" effect?

..."You do not understand, because you don't know what a cent is apparently."...

Kees, I believe this new thread could house your educational too. By posting your understandings in here, you could explain at length what ever you think it is not understood.

Regards, a.c.

CHAS MODEL - RESEARCH REPORT BY G.R.I.M. - Department of Mathematics, University of Palermo - 2009, Italy:
http://math.unipa.it/~grim/Quaderno19_Capurso_09_engl.pdf

Article by Professor Nicola Chiriano - published by P.RI.ST.EM (Progetto Ricerche Storiche E Metodologiche) - University "Bocconi" - Milano, 2010 - (Italian):
http://matematica.unibocconi.it/articoli/relazioni-armoniche-un-pianoforte

Chas Tunings:
http://www.chas.it/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=64&Itemid=44&lang=en


Edited by alfredo capurso (06/24/12 04:39 AM)
_________________________
alfredo

Top
#1918562 - 06/25/12 03:41 PM Re: C.HA.S. Model - Climates and Comments [Re: alfredo capurso]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1053
Loc: Sicily - Italy
Originally Posted By: Tunewerk
I like how the replies get shorter and shorter here. wink

Probably the most effective route.

I sure would like to understand what mathematical basis Alfredo was going for here in his work. I can't understand the math in the paper because it's not correct/sufficient to explain what he qualitatively describes.

I do believe Alfredo understands something about tuning that most machine tuners do not understand. Only the best aural tuners have talked about tuning this way. There is something between machine tuning (the strict science of offset numbers) and aural tuning.. and it is a big gap for those who can hear: The difference between considering the entire partial bandwidth, instead of a point and considering all partials, instead of one at a time.

I see Alfredo going for this in his own way. There seems to be a point at which all partial expansions can be balanced to a point of best fit. Sometimes I would call this similar to Haye Hinrichsen's reduction of entropy.. but this does not describe what happens all of the time.

So aside from your confusing logic, a word of support Alfredo, for your non-reductionist ideas about tuning.

Now if you could just answer questions honestly and openly...



Well, Tunewerk, the question may be when you reduce yourself, behaving as an anonymous slanderer who spends his time with obsessive s-talking. But, I believe you got one meaning for an s variable and deviating... behavior? wink
.
_________________________
alfredo

Top
#2076608 - 05/03/13 11:43 AM Re: C.HA.S. Model - Climates and Comments [Re: alfredo capurso]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1053
Loc: Sicily - Italy

Originally Posted By: hundenapf
#2071284 - April 26, 2013 11:38 AM Re: CIRCULAR HARMONIC SYSTEM - CHAS [Re: alfredo capurso]

I have read the entire thread over the last couple of days and have to admit that I am as confused about this topic as before.
I am comparing Cordier and Chas side by side in Pianoteq by loading their scala scales and find both of these stretched octave ETs more pleasing than "regular" ET with fixed octaves but beyond this sentiment of my personal taste as a simple musician I am lost and more confused than ever now but nevertheless would like to thank all involved for elaborating on this topic so deeply and passionately.
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso

Thank you, hundenapf, for sharing your appreciation.

For me it would certainly be interesting to be able to (aurally) evaluate Serge Cordier's temperament and Chas, in the way they are being proposed in Pianoteq. Do you think it might be possible? Even a short recording would do and perhaps a simple, slow execution of some chords would be enough.

As for "confusion", I will be happy to expand on any other issue that might be somehow obscure.

Regards, a.c.
Originally Posted By: Tunewerk

#2072102 - April 27, 2013 04:47 PM Re: CIRCULAR HARMONIC SYSTEM - CHAS [Re: alfredo capurso]

This thread should really be omitted from discussion. Some of the best tuners in the world have asked questions, only to receive a charade in return. Inquiry has been met with condescention.

It's okay to be confused, hundenapf. Some of the best tuners and very bright minds have considered CHAS, trying to understand it deeper. As far as I know, everyone has come away confused.

I don't think it is okay at all to be condescending to someone asking genuine questions.



The main Chas thread - in general - is dedicated to inquiry and questions about the Harmonic Temperament, indeed.

In order to host other kind of comments, I have started this thread: here you can write about and discuss any other issue, and I can reply without making the other thread longer.

Tunewerk, when you feel like writing some kind of history, I invite you to specify always name and surname of people you mention (including yours), and possibly quote those lines that would prove your theses and statements true. Where I live, posters that do not respect that golden rule are considered defamers.

On my part, I have tried to meet your inquiring with full answers, both privately and publicly, at least until I could reasonably believe that your questions were genuine.

You think I am condescending, I think you are contorted; I am still puzzled, but.. no problem, that's still okay.



Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso
#1912159 - June 12, 2012 06:42 AM Re: Circular Harmonic System(C.HA.S) Tuning [Re: Weiyan]
alfredo capurso Online content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: July 10, 2007
Posts: 672
Loc: Sicily - Italy

Tunewerk wrote:

Hello Phil, Ian, Alfredo.

..."Thank you Phil for the most complete and honestly clear explanation I've seen yet for CHAS. With so much discussion around it, I had to assume people were seeing some basis in it."...

Please Tunewerk, help me understand, are you interested in examining people or are you saying that "discussion" around it was much, perhaps out of proportion?

..."Alfredo, my apologies. I did not mean to insult you. I take ideas on their merit and mean no personal insult to anyone behind them."...

No need to apologize, what for, why should you? I'm trying to understand how you take ideas on their merit.

..."There are errors in your mathematics"...

Hmmm, I look forward to knowing more on that. And now, as a serious expert, you must show where.

..."and in your tuning instructions,…"

Hmmm, it's good if you can point out where.

..."which led me to believe that you didn't understand completely what you were trying to convey."...

Well, this is something original, on my idea's merit. You say: I do not "understand completely what" I (myself) am (was - would be) trying to convey?

..."With a lack of rigor, I lose energetic attention on the subject."...

You see, Tunewerk (is this your real name?) you say "lack of rigor" before proving it. Isn't this lack of rigor on your part? And would we be here if you had lost "energetic attention on the subject"? Hmmm...

..."I will be honest here in what I see: CHAS is an interesting attempt at organising theory,"...

Organizing theory? Is this what researchers do where you live, or new theories organize theory? You can be honest everywhere and specify what you intend to say.

..."...which can mean only positive things for the tuning community at large. However, it would do a greater service by being more transparent, instead of intentionally nebulous and obscure. Then others may contribute to a growing body of knowledge - and maybe add to your understanding, Alfredo."...

So, the problem now is not really "lack of rigor" but the fact that I make Chas theory (actually an attempt at organizing theory) nebulous and obscure, so the "body of knowledge" cannot grow and others cannot add to my understanding??? I'm astonished, I shall have a brake.


Edited by alfredo capurso (05/03/13 12:41 PM)
_________________________
alfredo

Top
#2076695 - 05/03/13 02:32 PM Re: C.HA.S. Model - Climates and Comments [Re: alfredo capurso]
Olek Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 6369
Loc: France
My opinion, CHAS is not very sensitive to climate (if it was the subject )

If not , best regards
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

Top
#2076930 - 05/04/13 12:17 AM Re: C.HA.S. Model - Climates and Comments [Re: alfredo capurso]
Chris Leslie Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/01/11
Posts: 455
Loc: Canberra, ACT, Australia
Alfredo, you are actually asking for criticism, so here goes:

I general I have found your explanations and defence of the C.HA.S model off-putting.

Lets take your web site for discussion: The home page is inviting and attempts to lure us into a new way of creating a more harmonious sound from the piano. Selling your concept here is fine.

The next page is an overview and should succinctly summarise the essence of your model. The immediate problem, and this is at the core of my reservation, is that you have implied that up to now, equal temperament has been unharmonious because it is based on a simple division and propagation of a 2:1 octave. This is not true and I believe has never been the case for good professional tuners because quality aural tuning has always relied on consonance and sonority rather than simple theory. In recent decades due to advances in technology tuners have fortunately been aware of the physical reasons behind conscious or unconscious tempering and stretching, and methods have been formalised. You are incorrectly implying that your model is the first to incorporate tempering away from a simple theoretical tuning.

You attempt to further deride simpler ET models by using the term "algebra" in dividing out the frequencies. On the other hand, your model uses "equations" to achieve something better. This strikes me as abusing terminology to convince readers with rhetorical psychology. Also, spruiking the term "tensorial" has no meaning to the majority of readers and also appears to be trying to win support by purporting to be intellectual and mathematical.

From this point your integrity is in question as somebody who is denigrating all others and regarding yourself as being the only person who has realised the previously undiscovered secret to the ideal piano tuning method. Any desire to read further is now tainted with a feeling of pseudoscience and incredibility.

This has been my true feelings from the first day I saw you threads.


Edited by Chris Leslie (05/04/13 04:43 AM)
_________________________
Chris Leslie
Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au

Top
#2077015 - 05/04/13 06:04 AM Re: C.HA.S. Model - Climates and Comments [Re: alfredo capurso]
Olek Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 6369
Loc: France
But, Chris, I guess no one cannot argue there is a fundamental falseness in the temperament description formula, using partials and 2:1. Hopefully for pianos iH help to solve practically the problem.

I guess the modern temperaments use a model that give the piano the responsability for pitches. That is why the Chas is a good compromise, it keep the tempering. The enlarged double octave sound yet in phase (I hear it too large in Stopper)

Then Alfredo describe the shape model itself as a crystal, hence his desire to have the theoretical model and real result linked.

In that case I believe that the testing have to be done at the organ. The piano is too much modifying the pitch to be used to describe temperaments...

Cordier as well thought of its tempering as a new justness model, until he heard it on an organ and did not recognize the typical tone.

This certainly does not lower the value of the Chas , only its universalness need to be ascertain. But for pianos it is a very strong temperament and consonanc method.
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

Top
#2077102 - 05/04/13 10:24 AM Re: C.HA.S. Model - Climates and Comments [Re: alfredo capurso]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1053
Loc: Sicily - Italy

Hi Chris,

I sincerely appreciate your criticism, in that it focuses on some precise points; this helps me to acknowledge your feelings and enables me to reply and share my outlook.

Let's see your points:

..."I general I have found your explanations and defence of the C.HA.S model off-putting. Lets take your web site for discussion: ..." The immediate problem, and this is at the core of my reservation, is that you have implied that up to now, equal temperament has been unharmonious because it is based on a simple division and propagation of a 2:1 octave. This is not true and I believe has never been the case for professional tuners. Quality aural tuning has always relied on consonance and sonority rather than simple theory."...

There I am not talking about practice, i.e. aural tuning, but theory, and I am referring to our common theoretical (and reference) model, namely 12 root of two, which has the 2:1 octave as the fundamental axiom. If I think about practice and aural tuning, I can only agree with you when you say that aural tuning has not relied on theory; perhaps "consonance" is for me a different issue altogether, but let's leave this aside.

..." In recent decades tuners have fortunately been aware of the physical reasons behind their largely unconscious tempering and stretching, and methods have been formalised."...

Yes, "reasons behind......tempering and stretching", this is what I have focused on. Perhaps there you refer to iH and sequences... I am saying that, beyond iH, there was a bottom (theoretical) problem that needed to be solved, and I am sure tuners can well become conscious of that.

... "You are incorrectly implying that your model is the first to incorporate tempering away from a simple theoretical tuning."...

Well, all models (including Chas) "incorporate tempering" away from other theoretical temperaments; in departure from previous models (pure-interval models), the Chas model tempers all intervals. I am not 100% sure I understand what you mean, perhaps you say "model" meaning "method" (sequence?).

I am not used to trying to imply more than what can be proved: in other words, Chas model incorporates (theoretical) tempering of all intervals, and what is fundamental is the approach (the premises), so much so that the Chas algorithm can embrace any other model and represent our tunings in dynamic "s" terms.

..." You attempt to further deride simpler ET models by using the term "algebra" in dividing out the frequencies. On the other hand, your model uses "equations" to achieve something better. This strikes me as abusing terminology to convince readers with rhetorical psychology."...

Hmmm.. What you describe goes far beyond my intention; there I only try to underline a countersense, typical of all pure-interval models: on one side their algebraic formula, on the other side a scale based on "pure" ratios out of whole/natural numbers, no more, no less than a simple fact.

..." Also, spruiking the term "tensorial" has no meaning to the majority of readers and also appears to be trying to win support by purporting to be intellectual and mathematical."...

Yes, I guess I know what you mean and I am sorry for what it "appears to be", perhaps you can help me: I would like to share an image where all intervals, with their proportional deviations, give shape to a precise "form". I tend to translate deviations into beats, and beats into "tension", meaning the tension of any non-pure interval. That is how I see the form, as a tense and beating whole, and I would be happy if you were able to suggest a better way.

... "From this point your integrity is in question as somebody who is denigrating all others and regarding yourself as being the only person who has realised the previously undiscovered secret to the ideal piano tuning method. Any desire to read further is now tainted with a feeling of pseudoscience and incredibility."...

I am sorry for that. As mentioned, I respect all researchers and I feel grateful for their contribute. About tuning methods (temperament sequence), I do not think there exists an ideal one, although inverting fifths is fundamental. About ET models and the approach to tempering I do believe... Oh, perhaps you already know.

..."This has been my true feelings from the first day I saw you threads."

I take this of yours as a positive and concrete contribute, thank you.
- . - . - . -

Isaac, I'll reply asap.

Best regards,

Alfredo
.
_________________________
alfredo

Top
#2077311 - 05/04/13 06:12 PM Re: C.HA.S. Model - Climates and Comments [Re: alfredo capurso]
Chris Leslie Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/01/11
Posts: 455
Loc: Canberra, ACT, Australia
Hi Alfredo, I am grateful and relieved by your courteous reply. I do not wish to further defend and prolong any discussion but will leave others to make their comments. Please note that I do admire your compassion and I am very highly impressed with the detail and patience with which your are helping Weiyan.
_________________________
Chris Leslie
Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au

Top
#2077510 - 05/05/13 06:31 AM Re: C.HA.S. Model - Climates and Comments [Re: Olek]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1053
Loc: Sicily - Italy
Originally Posted By: Olek

...In that case I believe that the testing have to be done at the organ. The piano is too much modifying the pitch to be used to describe temperaments...





Hi Isaac,

I agree, if we were able to test the model on a real organ we may well be enabled to judge intonation, even if "personal taste" is often believed to limit objectiveness.

On this, I have been able to discuss tuning (to some extend) with some organ tuners, and they seemed scandalized at the idea of tuning non-pure octaves! On the other hand, when they were asked how they tune fifths, 10ths, 12ths and double-(pure!)-octaves... they literally vanished. Oh, perhaps that is... mysteries of their trade?

Anyway, that is when I decided to compare theoretical frequencies by using "simple" digital sinusoids, and made that row comparison available on the web.

For what I can say, too many times I hear M3s, fifths and 12ths on organs that sound unbearable and the idea of making some progress really thrills me.

As for pianos, as you say they are unstable indeed... the times when I was enabled to test the model reliably was when I could double-check and re-set the tuning after heavy playing.

Have a nice Sunday,

Alfredo
.
_________________________
alfredo

Top
#2077710 - 05/05/13 03:04 PM Re: C.HA.S. Model - Climates and Comments [Re: alfredo capurso]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1540
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso
Originally Posted By: Olek

...In that case I believe that the testing have to be done at the organ. The piano is too much modifying the pitch to be used to describe temperaments...





Hi Isaac,

I agree, if we were able to test the model on a real organ we may well be enabled to judge intonation, even if "personal taste" is often believed to limit objectiveness.

On this, I have been able to discuss tuning (to some extend) with some organ tuners, and they seemed scandalized at the idea of tuning non-pure octaves! On the other hand, when they were asked how they tune fifths, 10ths, 12ths and double-(pure!)-octaves... they literally vanished. Oh, perhaps that is... mysteries of their trade?

Anyway, that is when I decided to compare theoretical frequencies by using "simple" digital sinusoids, and made that row comparison available on the web.

For what I can say, too many times I hear M3s, fifths and 12ths on organs that sound unbearable and the idea of making some progress really thrills me.

As for pianos, as you say they are unstable indeed... the times when I was enabled to test the model reliably was when I could double-check and re-set the tuning after heavy playing.

Have a nice Sunday,

Alfredo
.


A good article on the pro and (mainly) cons of impure octaves on the organ can be found here: http://www.pykett.org.uk/impureoctaves.htm.

If you stretch the octave the M3's that you dislike so much are of course going to be even worse.

Kees

Top
#2077851 - 05/05/13 07:29 PM Re: C.HA.S. Model - Climates and Comments [Re: DoelKees]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1053
Loc: Sicily - Italy
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso
Originally Posted By: Olek

...In that case I believe that the testing have to be done at the organ. The piano is too much modifying the pitch to be used to describe temperaments...





Hi Isaac,

I agree, if we were able to test the model on a real organ we may well be enabled to judge intonation, even if "personal taste" is often believed to limit objectiveness.

On this, I have been able to discuss tuning (to some extend) with some organ tuners, and they seemed scandalized at the idea of tuning non-pure octaves! On the other hand, when they were asked how they tune fifths, 10ths, 12ths and double-(pure!)-octaves... they literally vanished. Oh, perhaps that is... mysteries of their trade?

Anyway, that is when I decided to compare theoretical frequencies by using "simple" digital sinusoids, and made that row comparison available on the web.

For what I can say, too many times I hear M3s, fifths and 12ths on organs that sound unbearable and the idea of making some progress really thrills me.

As for pianos, as you say they are unstable indeed... the times when I was enabled to test the model reliably was when I could double-check and re-set the tuning after heavy playing.

Have a nice Sunday,

Alfredo
.


A good article on the pro and (mainly) cons of impure octaves on the organ can be found here: http://www.pykett.org.uk/impureoctaves.htm.

If you stretch the octave the M3's that you dislike so much are of course going to be even worse.

Kees


Hi Kees,

Thanks for that link. I got to know about Colin Pykett's web site and efforts some years ago and tried to understand his outlook and reasoning. Here I do not feel comfortable reviewing his articles, but I would like to report a couple of lines.

Under the title "Impure octaves" we read:

..."If the octaves are no longer pure, the subject could easily become theoretically anarchic and entirely experiential. Any note on the keyboard could in principle take any frequency value, and the frequencies actually chosen would then arise solely through empiricism – trial and error."

Under "What does “in-tune” mean?", we read:

..."As night follows day, imposing a temperament on a keyboard instrument always means that some intervals will be better tuned than others. A perfectly tuned interval exhibits no beats between any of the harmonics of either of the two notes, thus we perceive no wavering, pulsating or throbbing as long as the notes sound."...

Please let me know if you feel like discussing those two paragraphs, which in my understanding tell us what his premises are, I think we should really start from there.

You wrote:

..."If you stretch the octave the M3's that you dislike so much are of course going to be even worse."...

Let me precise that it is not beating M3's that I dislike; actually I like their - what would you call it - calling for attention? A pure 3rd sounds loose to me, and an over-tense 3rd sounds sour; in complex chords, it is the distance between all intervals that I notice, their relation, for instance the combination of a sour 3rd and a flat (too narrow) fifth.

I don't know, perhaps I am wrong but, how do you like pure M3's, pure M6's, 10ths and 17ths?
We often talk about color... What is color if not "beats"?

Regards, a.c.
.
_________________________
alfredo

Top
#2078118 - 05/06/13 05:10 AM Re: C.HA.S. Model - Climates and Comments [Re: alfredo capurso]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1053
Loc: Sicily - Italy

Hi Kees and All,

I think I can share what I wrote to Mr. Pykett, more than three years ago, and his reply, since the content is merely technical. In this way, in case you (All) would like to discuss his approach and outlook, we can all start from a fairly even point.

----- Original Message -----
From: <Alfredo Capurso>
To: <cep@pykett.org.uk>
Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 9:32 AM
Subject: C.HA.S. - Temperament

Dear Prof. Colin Pykett,

I am writing because I would like to make known a discovery that may be of interest to you.

My work as a piano tuner technician has enabled me to carry out research on sound and beats, leading to the construction of a new model for temperament of the musical scale.

The system was presented in March 2007 at a conference in Messina, Italy: “Mandelbrot and Fractal Geometry Forty Years Later”. This February an article on CHAS was published by the Research Group for the Teaching and Learning of Mathematics (G.R.I.M.) of the University of Palermo, and can be accessed at:

http://math.unipa.it/~grim/Quaderno19_Capurso_09_engl.pdf

The main results of the research are:

- a scale combining the prime numbers 2, 3 and 5, solving an age-old problem
- a self-contained physical and geometric entity

I am seeking to promote wider understanding and application of the CHAS model. I would welcome any form of collaboration or support that you may be able to offer, and any opportunity to enhance research in this area.

Best regards, Alfredo Capurso.

24/09/2009

Thank you for the email about your CHAS tuning system.

I regret I will not be able to devote any time to collaboration with you on this matter because I am busy with other things at the moment. However, if I have understood you correctly, it is interesting because it seems to contain some of the ideas I have investigated myself for tuning with impure (detuned) octaves. One of my conclusions is that the amount of detuning should vary across the keyboard to prevent beat frequencies becoming subjectively unacceptable in certain regions. In my work this has led to what I call a "distributed temperament". There are many ways to achieve this, from the empirical ("if it sounds good it IS good" to quote Duke Ellington) to the deterministic (in which one can play around with the mathematics for ever).

Perhaps the main qualitative difference between us is that you have concentrated on the piano, where inharmonic partials exist and are important, whereas I have focused on the organ where there is no
inharmonicity. Moreover, with the organ one has the several stops making up a chorus of octavely related pitches (16', 8', 4', 2', etc), as well as stops sounding the twelfth (2 2/3'), seventeenth (1 3/5'), etc. Therefore tuning the two instruments is very different, particularly if the octaves are not pure, and any conclusions we might reach for our "preferred" instrument cannot automatically be transferred to the other without careful consideration.

Thank you again for writing and best wishes

Colin Pykett

- . - . - . -

Regards, a.c.
_________________________
alfredo

Top
#2079162 - 05/08/13 07:35 AM Re: C.HA.S. Model - Climates and Comments [Re: Chris Leslie]
pianolive Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 320
Loc: Europe
Like others I have tried to understand the chas model. As I understand it the goal should be to minimize all beats by letting the octaves beat already from the beginning, however that could work in real piano tuning where IH in many variations must be taken in account. After all we tune to please our ears.
I remember when my daughter was studying advanced mathematics and once I asked her what she was going to use that for. She said Nothing! But it´s fun!
Maybe that is what the chas model is about. "Numbers Joy" but useless for real life piano tuning confused

Top
#2079763 - 05/09/13 09:51 AM Re: C.HA.S. Model - Climates and Comments [Re: alfredo capurso]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1053
Loc: Sicily - Italy

Thanks for your feedback, pianolive, and for having tried to understand the Chas model.

It is about beats indeed, although the real goal was to "proportion" all beats more than to minimize them. Let me know if you would like to understand that more in depth.

You are right, for me too it is "numbers joy", both when I play music staying on the bit and when I tune, as I enjoy comparing beat speeds and rates, relating in a way rhythm with numbers.

I guess you enjoy tuning as well... perhaps, on our side, this is what matters.

Regards,

Alfredo
.
_________________________
alfredo

Top
#2168664 - 10/19/13 08:05 PM Re: C.HA.S. Model - Climates and Comments [Re: alfredo capurso]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1053
Loc: Sicily - Italy

Hi All,

I need to add some details to that reply of mine, for better or... for worse.

Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: Tunewerk] #2167836 - October 17, 2013 11:07 PM

Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso
Originally Posted By: Tunewerk
I agree with Ed Foote on this.

Alfredo, I'm glad that you desire to delineate what creates a great ET mathematically with your CHAS approach. However, it seems your only motive is to sell your approach and inject this into every thread that might, even peripherally, accept it.

I don't think a 'standard' needs to be made beyond what already is. In fact, it shouldn't. Ed delineated clearly how standard ET is used in the PTG to act as a test that can be clearly defined and tuned to.

What emerges beyond this dry starting point is what separates the great from the average technicians. To standardize it and further make rules would drain the life out of what makes art vibrant, free and evolving.

I have a technical background in the sciences and it is even difficult for me to define a standard in what I am doing. I am fully aware of what I am doing when I am tuning aurally, and could describe it mathematically, but the problem is: it is very piecewise and complex. It cannot be summarized in a standard model. Every ideal model is unique.

According to the spectrum of a good piano, I believe there IS NO CONSTANT that can be used to delineate stretch. A great aural tuning uses a combination of alignments in different areas of the piano to achieve a maximum resonance of the instrument.

In other words, a pure 8ves, 5ths, or 12ths tuning - or anything in between - will never be the correct tuning for an entire instrument. This is true by definition of the medium we are dealing with.



Tunewerk,

I do not think we need to agree on "why" we write in this Forum and on what is peripheral. And I am not (here) into "selling" my approach, but offering it for free.

I think that, "beyond what already is", representing a new approach may help young tuners to focus on aural tuning targets, and I try to delineate clearly how the 12 or 16 notes required for tuning the first ET are not enough, not suitable for tuning a piano as a whole. For this reason I think that the PTG's test, although "clearly defined", is far from referencing/ensuring a reliable standard.

You wrote: ...What emerges beyond this dry starting point is what separates the great from the average technicians. To standardize it and further make rules would drain the life out of what makes art vibrant, free and evolving."...

To me, your words sound like poetry out of place. During my own research I tried to be lucid (perhaps you know how beats can keep you on earth), that is what makes me feel vibrant and free.

..."I have a technical background in the sciences and it is even difficult for me to define a standard in what I am doing. I am fully aware of what I am doing when I am tuning aurally, and could describe it mathematically, but the problem is: it is very piecewise and complex. It cannot be summarized in a standard model."...

I hope you can solve your problem.

..."Every ideal model is unique."...

I agree.

..."According to the spectrum of a good piano, I believe there IS NO CONSTANT that can be used to delineate stretch. A great aural tuning uses a combination of alignments in different areas of the piano to achieve a maximum resonance of the instrument."...

Why do you mention "a great aural tuner", are you a great aural tuner? How do you aim at "maximum resonance of the instrument", is that in force of 12 root of two? Or your free artistry?

..."In other words, a pure 8ves, 5ths, or 12ths tuning - or anything in between - will never be the correct tuning for an entire instrument. This is true by definition of the medium we are dealing with."...

If you manage to find your answer, all the better. For the time being, I hope you do not mind if I keep on sharing with others.
.


Tunewerk, you wrote:..."I don't think a 'standard' needs to be made beyond what already is. In fact, it shouldn't. Ed delineated clearly how standard ET is used in the PTG to act as a test that can be clearly defined and tuned to."...

What I understand is that PTG uses a test, (as you say) something that "...can be clearly defined and tuned to.."... I guess they use one ETD to "define" "their" "PTG standard"; now, I wonder if every single ETD has its own "ET variation"... Have you been able to make a comparison between different ETD's?

..."...According to the spectrum of a good piano, I believe there IS NO CONSTANT that can be used to delineate stretch. A great aural tuning uses a combination of alignments in different areas of the piano to achieve a maximum resonance of the instrument."...

You write "...I believe there IS NO CONSTANT...", here I need to add:

a) Constant... referred to a "theoretical" scale incremental ratio...

The Chas model provides the (one) constant that combines theoretical partials properly;

b) Constant... in relation to our practice, ...different areas of the piano... maximum resonance...

That is what the "s" parameter represents, the (any) note_by_note difference.

..."...In other words, a pure 8ves, 5ths, or 12ths tuning - or anything in between - will never be the correct tuning for an entire instrument. This is true by definition of the medium we are dealing with."...

Yes, that is is also the meaning of models - in general - to improve "the medium".


Edited by alfredo capurso (10/19/13 08:16 PM)
_________________________
alfredo

Top
#2169291 - 10/21/13 07:56 AM Re: C.HA.S. Model - Climates and Comments [Re: pianolive]
David Jenson Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/22/06
Posts: 1949
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: pianolive
Like others I have tried to understand the chas model. As I understand it the goal should be to minimize all beats by letting the octaves beat already from the beginning, however that could work in real piano tuning where IH in many variations must be taken in account. After all we tune to please our ears.
I remember when my daughter was studying advanced mathematics and once I asked her what she was going to use that for. She said Nothing! But it´s fun!
Maybe that is what the chas model is about. "Numbers Joy" but useless for real life piano tuning confused


'Well said. It's funny how easy it is to wrinkle our noses by smacking into reality if we go about with a head full of theory.
_________________________
David L. Jenson
Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
-----

Top
#2169478 - 10/21/13 12:26 PM Re: C.HA.S. Model - Climates and Comments [Re: alfredo capurso]
bkw58 Online   content

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 1309
Loc: Conway, AR USA
Unless I've missed something, the provided sampling precludes meaningful evaluation. It's the same issue with the Stopper. There it's guitar sampling. With C.AH.S it's synthesized tone. Neither of these are a faithful representation of what I actually hear in toto in piano string, unisons, intervals, et al.

Nevertheless, I wish you all success.


Edited by bkw58 (10/21/13 12:27 PM)
Edit Reason: typo
_________________________
Bob W.
Piano technician, retired
Conway, AR

Piano Technic Blog

Top
#2169509 - 10/21/13 01:24 PM Re: C.HA.S. Model - Climates and Comments [Re: bkw58]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4789
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: bkw58
Unless I've missed something, the provided sampling precludes meaningful evaluation. It's the same issue with the Stopper. There it's guitar sampling. With C.AH.S it's synthesized tone. Neither of these are a faithful representation of what I actually hear in toto in piano string, unisons, intervals, et al.

Nevertheless, I wish you all success.


Even if what they are trying to succeed at is self-promotion by deluding others?
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

Top
#2169538 - 10/21/13 02:26 PM Re: C.HA.S. Model - Climates and Comments [Re: UnrightTooner]
bkw58 Online   content

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 1309
Loc: Conway, AR USA
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
Originally Posted By: bkw58
Unless I've missed something, the provided sampling precludes meaningful evaluation. It's the same issue with the Stopper. There it's guitar sampling. With C.AH.S it's synthesized tone. Neither of these are a faithful representation of what I actually hear in toto in piano string, unisons, intervals, et al.

Nevertheless, I wish you all success.


Even if what they are trying to succeed at is self-promotion by deluding others?


In principle, no.


Edited by bkw58 (10/21/13 02:27 PM)
Edit Reason: typo
_________________________
Bob W.
Piano technician, retired
Conway, AR

Piano Technic Blog

Top
#2169553 - 10/21/13 02:46 PM Re: C.HA.S. Model - Climates and Comments [Re: alfredo capurso]
Olek Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 6369
Loc: France
You need t have something to sell, to make self promotion.
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

Top
#2169715 - 10/21/13 07:15 PM Re: C.HA.S. Model - Climates and Comments [Re: alfredo capurso]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1053
Loc: Sicily - Italy

Yes Isaac, very acute, was it that we are selling! And I shall add that before a disappointment, "one" (to begin with) must have expectations.

Jeff,

You already owe me a beer... with Isaac's comment and this reminder (below - your first reply...) it makes a total of 7. Yes, :-) now it is... exponential.


Re: CIRCULAR HARMONIC SYSTEM - CHAS [Re: alfredo capurso] #1194916 - May 07, 2009 12:30 PM

Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
Alfredo:

I will study the paper with great interest. I am particularly interested in how anything can be a "dynamic, stable and perfectly resonant system." as mentioned in the abstract. Also, I am wondering what a "synchronic attractor" might be.

The theory of piano tuning fascinates me, but lately I am realizing its usefulness is limited in aural tuning. Aural tuning is all about compromises, compromises that can be heard. They don’t need to be theorized to be heard, just listened to and accepted. I am thinking that the theory is really only necessary for designing a mathematical model so that ETDs can make the compromises without actually “hearing” them. And then there is the final limit on accuracy imposed by the pinblock and rendering points. Not to mention what the next passing thunderstorm may do to a tuning!

Thanks for posting!


Edited by alfredo capurso (10/21/13 07:54 PM)
_________________________
alfredo

Top
#2169959 - 10/22/13 10:09 AM Re: C.HA.S. Model - Climates and Comments [Re: Olek]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4789
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: Olek
You need t have something to sell, to make self promotion.



Oh, my! Your odd use of the English language does point to something I hadn't considered: "selling one's self." There is a word for that. wink
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

Top
#2169964 - 10/22/13 10:15 AM Re: C.HA.S. Model - Climates and Comments [Re: alfredo capurso]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4789
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso

Yes Isaac, very acute, was it that we are selling! And I shall add that before a disappointment, "one" (to begin with) must have expectations.

Jeff,

You already owe me a beer... with Isaac's comment and this reminder (below - your first reply...) it makes a total of 7. Yes, :-) now it is... exponential.


Re: CIRCULAR HARMONIC SYSTEM - CHAS [Re: alfredo capurso] #1194916 - May 07, 2009 12:30 PM

Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
Alfredo:

I will study the paper with great interest. I am particularly interested in how anything can be a "dynamic, stable and perfectly resonant system." as mentioned in the abstract. Also, I am wondering what a "synchronic attractor" might be.

The theory of piano tuning fascinates me, but lately I am realizing its usefulness is limited in aural tuning. Aural tuning is all about compromises, compromises that can be heard. They don’t need to be theorized to be heard, just listened to and accepted. I am thinking that the theory is really only necessary for designing a mathematical model so that ETDs can make the compromises without actually “hearing” them. And then there is the final limit on accuracy imposed by the pinblock and rendering points. Not to mention what the next passing thunderstorm may do to a tuning!

Thanks for posting!


Ah, yes. My first post to you in that Topic. To be fair, shouldn't you also post my last post in that Topic? By the way, cross-posting from one Topic to another is poor etiquette.

But regardless, sure I would buy you a beer. I don't take what you say all that seriously. How could I? laugh laugh laugh
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

Top
#2169969 - 10/22/13 10:26 AM Re: C.HA.S. Model - Climates and Comments [Re: alfredo capurso]
bkw58 Online   content

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 1309
Loc: Conway, AR USA
The website accepts donations via credit cards. Whether or not the seminars are for fee or gratis does not appear.
_________________________
Bob W.
Piano technician, retired
Conway, AR

Piano Technic Blog

Top

Moderator:  Piano World 
What's Hot!!
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
-------------------
PIANO BOOKS
Interesting books about the piano, pianists, piano history, biographies, memoirs and more!
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
Download & Print Sheet Music Instantly
sheet music search
sheet music search

sheet music search
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
Who's Online
165 registered (accordeur, A Guy, 36251, Akshay, 50 invisible), 1460 Guests and 28 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
74250 Members
42 Forums
153592 Topics
2251025 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Casio PX 850
by ryand90
22 minutes 10 seconds ago
Am I Too Old?
by HatemTarek22
29 minutes 13 seconds ago
New 52" upright with 10K budget?
by WCSdancer
37 minutes 36 seconds ago
give up on old acoustics and buy a digital?
by carojm36
Today at 06:41 PM
I think I have a problem
by JoelW
Today at 05:02 PM
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission