Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Teachers Forum Can passion be "taught?"

Hi Teachers,

I didn't know where else to turn, but I'm at my wit's end with my 9-year old. She started out so passionate about piano 3 years ago. She practiced all the time on her own and made very rapid progress. After about a year, she's lost interest and just kind of has been "plodding along" with level 2, level 3 repertoire. I've told her that she could've been at a much higher level if she practiced on her own.

Don't get me wrong. As a parent (who's also a player), I've gone into streaks where I'd oversee her practice, but then as all of you other parents here know, "life happens." Often times, I can't supervise the practice, and then she falls back into patterns of not practicing on her own...or at all. Lately, in her practice she just sounds like she's "going through the motions", and not even trying to play the piece musically.

Now....her current teacher is about to start college so we'll probably be looking for another teacher soon. Her teacher has been great - herself, a competition pianist - and gave her great fundamentals. But...is there something that's missing?? She's just a kid and not trained in piano pedagogy. Is there an element of teaching where the student can "learn" how to be passionate, and want to practice on their own? Again, I know all about this, because I used to be just like my daughter...no passion. I've quit at things Like any parent, I don't want her making the same mistakes and having the same regrets.

Anyway, thoughts and comments are welcome. Thanks in advanced.

I'm pushing 50 and I still don't like to practice. It's work.

However, I love to play, so therefore, I practice.

Your daughter doesn't yet have this maturity, so she needs some structure and some encouragement.

Part of her current problem may have to do with the teacher, but I cannot say this for certain. In looking for a new teacher, it's important to consider some of the following ideas (I'm sure others will chime in):

- Find someone who clicks with your daughter's personality
- Find someone who has demonstrated success at working with students this age
- Find someone who has the knowledge and background to structure your child's curriculum help her be successful in her practice. Success breeds success.

This means you will have to interview with several teachers. Start with your local music teachers association. You don't say where you live, but you can find links at www.mtna.org or, in California, www.mtac.org

Good luck.

Hi CebuKid,

Here are my thoughts about whether passion can be taught.

I found out that "passion" is from the Ancient Greek verb pashkho meaning "to suffer". Passion can be defined as an intense emotion, compelling feeling, enthusiasm or desire for something. In other words, something you're willing to suffer for.

No doubt that passion is intrinsic. But what could be external motivators? Someone may know how to practice playing an instrument, but it doesn't necessarily mean they are motivated to do it. Feeling satisfied and fulfilled with something builds passion for it. To some extent a teacher can influence how much fun student is having playing music.

We could also compare passion for piano to falling in love. You can't MAKE yourself fall in love. Sometimes everything clicks and it's love at first sight. It's just there. (But it will take effort to keep the passion alive.) OTOH, by arranging a situation in which 2 people meet regularly and do enjoyable things together, love may develop between them.

Just my 2 cents.

I think it's important to do a few things in this situation:

#1 -- Stop worrying. Kids at age 9 are going through lots of changes in their lives and she may just be going through a lull. I've found in 18 yrs of teaching that ages 9-13 are the toughest.

#2 -- You didn't say much about "what" she's studying, but maybe you need to find a teacher that can help her explore some new musical genres. Perhaps your daughter just needs some varied repertoire. I hated to practice, but if I liked the music then I enjoyed playing. As the poster above stated there is a *big* difference between "practice" and "playing"

I find that usually a highly varied repertoire that intermingles current music with more technical pieces is a good way to keep a students interest during these tough preteen years. Now you just have to find a teacher who can do it all!

No need to be at your wits end about this situation. I'd guess that most 9 year old kids need a parent to remind them to practice. And kids lose interest as pieces get too difficult for them...and level 3 has a lot more demands than primer and level 1.

Instead of setting your heart on your child feeling passionate about piano, perhaps you can both be happy is she has a mild interest and will practice daily with parent reminders.

I remember that after winning 7 gold medals Mark Spitz commenting that he never wanted to step into a pool again.

I think passion is linked to a ' love ' for something....maybe it's the way the music makes you feel, maybe it's how people feel if they hear you play and are highly encouraging.....maybe it's something you were born to do.

So many parents want for their children what they missed [ for instance staying with the piano]but even if you are able to push your child they will make their own choices when they can.

I hope she is able to play pieces she likes and that encouragment keeps her interest....

rada

Thanks for the advice, and I agree with what you say. I'm at my wit's end because I hate to see her "throw away her talent" away, and again, she *does* practice, but doesn't practice well unless I'm supervising her. She often just goes through the motions. Again, I'm a player too, so I know what exactly what her teacher has her working on and I know what she needs to accomplish with her pieces and practice routine.

I guess it would help to give you guys some perspective and background. She breezed through the level 1 primer (Alfred's) in less than a month and in month 3, played a beginner level version of "The Entertainer"...not a child beginner's piece - especially at age 6. I'm not saying she's a prodigy, but she definitely exhibits natural ability - more so than I had at age 9.

Currently, she can play "The Happy Farmer" by Schumann, which I'm very proud of. She can also do most of the Hanon exercises which most kids her age can't do. I guess I'm frustrated because I know she can do better, and yes, frustrated because she doesn't "love piano" and tends to go through the motions.

I've given her speeches and lectures about how she has a talent, and that how piano sets her apart from her peers, and also how she needs to start practicing on her own. I also know she's got a tendency to not try hard at something unless she loves it. I also understand that it's typical "kid behavior."

Anyway, enough of my rambling. Yes, I admit I want much more for her, and don't want her making the same mistake I made. What parent doesn't?! We will find another teacher for her soon, so this may change her work habits. Her current teacher is quite lax (because she herself is a kid), so I'm guessing that there isn't that "fear factor" of disappointing the teacher.

Thanks again, everyone.

I hate mindless repetition. "Practice" can easily become that, and I think it's a mind-killer. I spend so much time teaching, the only thing that can motivate me to push myself is absolutely fascination with something. If I want to play something, and I can't yet play it, if the PROCESS of working to master this "new thing" is interesting, sometimes pulling apart the new thing, deciding how to master it, making a strategy, and perhaps having a race or competition with myself (can I learn this faster than I have ever learning things in the past) all goes together to make the process fun.

But even if the "work" is also fun, great fun, it is also HARD. Concentrating that deeply, even for a short time, is quite exhausting.

Question: how much of "passion" comes AFTER a good degree of success?

Well, there's intrinsic motivation and extrinsic motivation. Some kids are super-motivated by medals, ribbons, trophies, and all sorts of mementos given out at festivals and competitions. For some kids, really cool stickers will do the trick. Some kids (yes, I know they exist!) play piano because they are GETTING PAID to practice. I am not making this up. This actually happened.

For intrinsic motivation, there's really not much anybody can do to help. You can be extra encouraging and get your daughter's peers to partake in piano (good luck with that one!), but at the end of the day intrinsic motivation is something that the kid has to find in herself. You can open up channels like recommending certain Youtube videos or taking her to some concerts, but that will only go so far.

Ah. Is that wise?

AZN: Kids getting paid to practice?!?!? Yikes! I mean really WOW! My sons are getting stickers from a teacher to do some homework and I have to say that I REALLY don't like it, since it takes away the whole idea of 'studying in order to get better' or either way 'study because you have to'... There's no stickers in real life! But getting paid!??! This is beyond reason!

passion cannot be taught, I think, but it can easily be shown, displayed and have the kid be jealous! . It could very well be that your kid is missing the link between practising, doing something good and then receiving the results (playing nicely in a recital, moving ahead to new works, etc).

I am afraid to say, I think that that is not an encouraging approach for a kid your daughter's age. Not the "speeches and lectures" part, but the "setting her apart from her peers" part. Kids don't want to be set apart from their peers.

I believe that passion can be taught, or transmitted. But that demands a veritable passion on your part, and generosity and availability that are never exhausted and that continue through the highs and the lows.



Don't forget: she's only 9 years old, she needs you.

I wonder if she would be more passionate if she were getting ready to perform the pieces. Lots of little recitals/sharing times can be set up.

For Sunday afternoon family time
For grandparents
For shcool
For friends
For community
For church

One need not wait until there is a yearly piano recital!

Having goals gives more excitement to practicing.

And no payments please, I agree.

Thanks Ann in Kentucky for the education on Greek origin of “passion” meaning “to suffer” (ouch!) ...not exactly the right snake-medicine to entice kiddy-winks to play the piano.

But why do some loving Mums imagine that they are authors of the latest Mozart?

Heck ... a 9 year old is likely to be battling to memorize the keyboard piece at hand, and dreading the thought of having to tackle a new work ... it’s the name of the game ... sight-reading acumen takes a lifetime (not for the faint-hearted) ... as some so rightly say ... it’s only when the mind-blowing labour of diligent practice is welcomed (albeit grinding one’s teeth) that passion bears fruit (mostly in adults).

A 9-year old wants fun ... riding a bike or kicking a ball ... piano at that age can so easily degenerate into a drudge and get put on the back-burner.

Any adult persistence to stay with lessons (lots of hang in there gusto!) can so easily miscarry and result in a positive hatred for the piano ... beware Madam!!

Cebukid, in telling of what your child has learned in lessons, you have listed pieces and studies. I'm getting no picture of what she has been taught other than the external pieces and studies which in the beginning she whizzed through.

Music has depth to it. If you have natural ability then it is easy to whiz through at the surface because everything is easy. My path is a bit different because I had no teacher until well into adulthood, but there may be clues. I learned easily. Without anyone to guide me, I did a lot of exploring. Later I discovered that I picked up music theory without names for anything. I created things (improvised - by ear composing) using what I found, and it helped me see things in music. These were interesting and motivating things, and with an unimaginative teacher I might have missed this. One possible clue?

Second: I had lessons on a new instrument as an adult. I advanced rapidly like your child and was soon playing advanced music. But because I didn't need basic things like studying intervals, meter, and a dozen other things, I also didn't get them. Increasingly as I advanced in grades I was losing motivation - missing something. There was no depth in what we were doing: it was just harder and harder music. There were two problems with this. 1. It's the foundations gotten in a real way that allow you to put something into advanced music. 2. The things that fascinated me were the things being left out because supposedly they "bored" students. Eventually I learned of them, of course.

When I put these two things together, I wonder whether your child rode the surface of music and didn't get the depth, which leads to exploration and creativity. Again, you have listed pieces and studies, but not what was happening in them, or what kinds of things your child actually learned and did. Could this be a clue?

I'd also question that approach. Everyone, sooner or later, will find out that some other people are better than they are in a particular field of study. If the passion is based on the hope to set oneself apart from others, it won't last long anyways.

You're welcome.
I got a kick out of the origin of the word. But also it seems that "passion" is the new buzz word. I think it's overused and the depth of the meaning is glossed over. It reminds me of how the word "awesome" is overused. As in "I'm attending the event on Sunday." and the response is "Awesome!". (Ugh!) So that's why I added the origin.

I have an 11 year old that plays the piano. I'm not a teacher FTR! If it makes you feel any better, I still sit down and practice with my 11 year old most of the time (or maybe it will make you feel worse!). His teacher encourages that for as long as a kid needs it to stay on task and for many kids that will go on until age 14 or 15. I'm sure some piano teachers would think that is crazy, but that's the age many kids get proficient at managing their own school work and taking decent notes at school. I'm sure there are highly motivated kids that take that all on sooner, but personally I think it's fine for an interested and enthusiastic parent to be involved for a while.

My 11 year old was similarly precocious early on. I think he played Happy Farmer at age 6/7. He's gone in waves of interest, but we keep chugging away at it. Personally, we use a very experienced teacher w/a PhD and college teaching experience. I don't think a less experienced and invested teacher would have worked for my own kid. If you really are using a high school kid as a teacher, that's the first thing I would consider changing. Our teacher teaches in a well rounded way and lays out very clear objectives and goals.

I feel like at this stage, my son is building foundational skills for LIFE and not just piano. He's learning to work at something incrementally, learning to work with a mentor, learning to come back to something day after day even when it's hard. If he wants to do more with piano specifically when he's older, that's going to be up to him to decide. He needs to decide where his greatest interests lie (and he has many). Childhood is a marathon, not a sprint. I'm not a huge fan of the word "passion" either.

Thanks KCK. This is the best, "non-judgmental" advice given yet. I do think you're right about her teacher. The intent with this teacher was to give her (and my younger daughter) a "foundation" and go through the beginner books for 2-3 years. Her teacher didn't expect her to advance either as quickly as she did. She's been great for these past 3 years, but I think you're right...a teacher trained in pedogogy would be more ideal at this point. Also, a teacher who teaches the "depth" of the music (as Keystrings put it) would help. I personally don't think a 6-year old understands this, but maybe a highly qualified teacher can teach that.

As I said earlier, I do supervise her practice, but just can't do it all the time - which is why I do wish she had passion. I don't care, but I'll continue to use that word. It's passion that makes people love to practice - young or old. My daughter was like that when she first started. Practice can't be looked upon as drudgery, and neither should the desire to accomplish a goal (ie playing a piece). Once one loses the desire for both, they lose their passion.

And for you guys who think that it's wrong that I'm teaching my daughter to set herself apart from her peers, I say this: is it really wrong that I want my daughter to be better than the average pre-teen who goes on playdates, talks on the phone, plays video and computer games, doesn't play an instrument, but participates in non-value added activities like soccer, for example?? Yes, I mention soccer because it's an over-rated "sport" which is known to give kids 10th place trophies, and one that many parents force their non-athletic kids into to "make them feel like winners."

I don't want her to be *that kid*. Really, what is so wrong about wanting her to be better than average, and then teaching this value to her??!!! By the way, I'm Asian, and this same message is preached in many an Asian household, and I was brought up the same way. We encourage our kids to take up musical instruments because it adds value to their brain and helps them excel in academics. And I think the ability to play piano and play it well does set one apart from others - young or old. For us adults, isn't it great to have such an enriching activity in life, instead of going to the bar, watching TV, eating bon-bons, etc? I think piano sets even us apart from our "average" peers.

PS-this thread's been brought up before, but you guys need to read "Tiger Mom". She takes Asian parenting to another level, and brought her kids up the same way - to be better than average, excel at music, and set themselves apart from other kids. I am actually extremely Western compared to her.

PPS- This is all I'm going to write about my way of parenting. I know some of you will get offended and post some type of retort, and I will not answer any of these.

Well, personally I can take pleasure in lots of different activities, including socialising and thoughtful engagement with televisual media as well as playing several musical intruments.

I'm interested to know if people see the the instrumentalism (forgive me) of a 'value-added' approach (something you do to improve academic performance rather than something done for its own sake) as antithetical to producing a life-long love of music. I'm conflicted.