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#1917387 - 06/22/12 05:44 PM Re: Valentina Lisitsa at Royal Albert Hall [Re: Hakki]
Damon Online   happy
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6223
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: Hakki

Let me put it this way.
For example, Pogorelich, carey, Vica are true pianists.
I am an amateur.
And Mrs.Lisitsa is somewhere in between.


Some forum members are true pianists and some aren't? Angelina is a student, I thought, and one whose recordings you have criticized in the past. Can't you define this a little clearer. Your example makes it more confusing. Carey and Vica have also posted very good recordings but...? Do you know more about them personally than an average forum member would? Do they all play for money? I do but I'm not as good as any of you.
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#1917392 - 06/22/12 05:50 PM Re: Valentina Lisitsa at Royal Albert Hall [Re: suniil]
debrucey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 2606
Loc: Manchester, UK
The watch again video hasn't been edited, it's exactly what was broadcast live.

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#1917394 - 06/22/12 05:52 PM Re: Valentina Lisitsa at Royal Albert Hall [Re: Damon]
Hakki Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2722
Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: Hakki

Let me put it this way.
For example, Pogorelich, carey, Vica are true pianists.
I am an amateur.
And Mrs.Lisitsa is somewhere in between.


Some forum members are true pianists and some aren't? Angelina is a student, I thought, and one whose recordings you have criticized in the past. Can't you define this a little clearer. Your example makes it more confusing. Carey and Vica have also posted very good recordings but...? Do you know more about them personally than an average forum member would? Do they all play for money? I do but I'm not as good as any of you.


My definition has nothing to do with money.
It is more in the line of a "she sounds like an amateur" thing.
The moment I listen to any of our above members, I can clearly hear that they are not amateurs.
Hope this makes it more clear.
_________________________
Put in one of IMO, I think, to me, for me... or similar to all sentences I post

http://www.youtube.com/user/hakkithepianist

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#1917404 - 06/22/12 06:01 PM Re: Valentina Lisitsa at Royal Albert Hall [Re: suniil]
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
To me, amateur just means you aren't doing it as your primary source of income. It doesn't mean that you are a less than aesthetically pleasing musician.


Mark_C is exactly what I would define as an amateur pianist. He's a head shrinker by day (sorry, I had to), and just happens to be serious about music too.
_________________________
Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.

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#1917411 - 06/22/12 06:08 PM Re: Valentina Lisitsa at Royal Albert Hall [Re: Hakki]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19582
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Hakki

Even if she had played note perfect, I would still find the review she had tweeted very generous.
IMO, she is not a true pianist/musician. She really can't listen to what she is playing.
How can you possibly know if she can listen to her playing? You may not like things about it, but those may be very conscious choices based on a great ability to listen to herself.

As far as her playing note perfectly, I'm very familiar with most of the pieces she played and didn't hear many mistakes. Certainly not enough for this to be an issue. Your comment implied that there was a problem in this area.


Edited by pianoloverus (06/22/12 06:15 PM)

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#1917415 - 06/22/12 06:13 PM Re: Valentina Lisitsa at Royal Albert Hall [Re: suniil]
dolce sfogato Offline
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Registered: 03/29/10
Posts: 2660
Loc: Netherlands
Missed notes are to be 'allowed' for in live performances, we are no machines, but I was rather surprised to watch her feet doing the legato instead of her fingers, throughout that is, esp. in the Chopin op.27/2 it was rather disturbing, as was her speed. The extra's in the op.9/2 are well known and very not-supposed-to-be-original, but for a change, why not?
_________________________
Longtemps, je me suis couché de bonne heure, but not anymore!

Mussorgski tableaux d'une exposition/Ravel miroirs

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#1917418 - 06/22/12 06:16 PM Re: Valentina Lisitsa at Royal Albert Hall [Re: suniil]
Cherub Rocker Offline
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Registered: 02/11/06
Posts: 475
Loc: North Carolina, USA
I was trying not to say anything but I don't think she can really hear what she's doing. When I listen to this performance I don't sense that she really knows what she's trying to say. Where's the phrasing? The singing tone?

It's so puzzling to me because I don't see anything in her technique that would hinder her musicianship, nothing wrong there.

I also don't believe true musicians are always paid more or get more recognition. It's much more than just about being a 'professional' or an 'amateur'. It has more to do with having something to say and knowing how to communicate it. In my definition Pogorelich, carey, and Vica are closer to what I would consider to be true 'professionals'. Why so much focus on money?
_________________________
Schubert: Impromptus Op. 90, Nos. 2 and 4
Chopin: Etudes Op. 25, Nos. 10-12
Scriabin: Sonata No. 2

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#1917423 - 06/22/12 06:28 PM Re: Valentina Lisitsa at Royal Albert Hall [Re: Cherub Rocker]
Damon Online   happy
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6223
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: Cherub Rocker

I also don't believe true musicians are always paid more or get more recognition. It's much more than just about being a 'professional' or an 'amateur'. It has more to do with having something to say and knowing how to communicate it. In my definition Pogorelich, carey, and Vica are closer to what I would consider to be true 'professionals'. Why so much focus on money?


Because that's what professionals do. They make money.

What Hakki is saying makes no sense to me. You may not like what she has to say, and that's valid, but she is definitely saying something with a technique I haven't heard from the forum members mentioned. (whose recordings I also enjoy, BTW!)
_________________________
It's been scientifically proven that Horowitz sucks.

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#1917424 - 06/22/12 06:28 PM Re: Valentina Lisitsa at Royal Albert Hall [Re: Cherub Rocker]
Hakki Offline
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Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2722
Originally Posted By: Cherub Rocker
I was trying not to say anything but I don't think she can really hear what she's doing. When I listen to this performance I don't sense that she really knows what she's trying to say. Where's the phrasing? The singing tone?

It's so puzzling to me because I don't see anything in her technique that would hinder her musicianship, nothing wrong there.

I also don't believe true musicians are always paid more or get more recognition. It's much more than just about being a 'professional' or an 'amateur'. It has more to do with having something to say and knowing how to communicate it. In my definition Pogorelich, carey, and Vica are closer to what I would consider to be true 'professionals'. Why so much focus on money?


+1

I think Mrs.Lisitsa really needs a teacher.
It is never too late.
_________________________
Put in one of IMO, I think, to me, for me... or similar to all sentences I post

http://www.youtube.com/user/hakkithepianist

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#1917425 - 06/22/12 06:29 PM Re: Valentina Lisitsa at Royal Albert Hall [Re: dolce sfogato]
Damon Online   happy
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Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6223
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: dolce sfogato
but I was rather surprised to watch her feet doing the legato instead of her fingers,


Me too! I didn't have a problem with the speed until "La Campanella"
_________________________
It's been scientifically proven that Horowitz sucks.

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#1917433 - 06/22/12 06:45 PM Re: Valentina Lisitsa at Royal Albert Hall [Re: Damon]
Hakki Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2722
Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: Cherub Rocker

I also don't believe true musicians are always paid more or get more recognition. It's much more than just about being a 'professional' or an 'amateur'. It has more to do with having something to say and knowing how to communicate it. In my definition Pogorelich, carey, and Vica are closer to what I would consider to be true 'professionals'. Why so much focus on money?


Because that's what professionals do. They make money.

What Hakki is saying makes no sense to me. You may not like what she has to say, and that's valid, but she is definitely saying something with a technique I haven't heard from the forum members mentioned. (whose recordings I also enjoy, BTW!)


Well, you might be impressed by her technique. But to me it is just superficial playing and I am not that impressed.
She can get through some Rachmaninoff with it (lots of pedal etc.), still very unmusically though. But I am not convinced by her Liszt. I am in great doubt whether she knows what is going on in Erlkonig.
Mozart, Beethoven, Chopin are all played childishly.
_________________________
Put in one of IMO, I think, to me, for me... or similar to all sentences I post

http://www.youtube.com/user/hakkithepianist

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#1917435 - 06/22/12 06:48 PM Re: Valentina Lisitsa at Royal Albert Hall [Re: Hakki]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19582
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Hakki
I think Mrs.Lisitsa really needs a teacher.
It is never too late.
What's the point of your long series of negative comments? It gives me the impression there is some personal animosity involved. If not, why not just say once you personally don't like her playing and be done with it?

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#1917440 - 06/22/12 06:53 PM Re: Valentina Lisitsa at Royal Albert Hall [Re: pianoloverus]
Hakki Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2722
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: Hakki
I think Mrs.Lisitsa really needs a teacher.
It is never too late.
What's the point of your long series of negative comments? It gives me the impression there is some personal animosity involved. If not, why not just say once you personally don't like her playing and be done with it?


With all respect, do I have to answer this?
_________________________
Put in one of IMO, I think, to me, for me... or similar to all sentences I post

http://www.youtube.com/user/hakkithepianist

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#1917446 - 06/22/12 07:02 PM Re: Valentina Lisitsa at Royal Albert Hall [Re: pianoloverus]
lilylady Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 4981
Loc: boston north
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: Hakki
I think Mrs.Lisitsa really needs a teacher.
It is never too late.
What's the point of your long series of negative comments? It gives me the impression there is some personal animosity involved. If not, why not just say once you personally don't like her playing and be done with it?


"Like"

We get it. Your opinion that is, Hakki. And it is now getting tiring.
_________________________
"Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination, and life to everything."

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#1917449 - 06/22/12 07:07 PM Re: Valentina Lisitsa at Royal Albert Hall [Re: Hakki]
Damon Online   happy
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6223
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: Hakki

Well, you might be impressed by her technique. But to me it is just superficial playing and I am not that impressed.


I think her technique is sufficient to at least earn the title "pianist". There are more respected names than hers whose musicality I find detestable.

Originally Posted By: Hakki

Mozart, Chopin are all played childishly.


I'm in full agreement here (especially with my edit, I didn't think the Beethoven was that bad), but despite his popularity among pianists, Chopin isn't played well by very many. (IMO)
_________________________
It's been scientifically proven that Horowitz sucks.

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#1917489 - 06/22/12 08:49 PM Re: Valentina Lisitsa at Royal Albert Hall [Re: suniil]
Andromaque Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/08
Posts: 3886
Loc: New York
I think that Hakki is being a bit too harsh I did skip to the Nocturne that Hakki pointed out and I found it to be utterly.. not to my taste. But perhaps a bit more seriously worse than that: it looses most of Chopin's spirit, lacks elegance and- what I would define as-musicality . With all due respects to Ms. Listsa.
I would be curious to hear what others thought of it.

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#1917499 - 06/22/12 09:09 PM Re: Valentina Lisitsa at Royal Albert Hall [Re: suniil]
Cherub Rocker Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/11/06
Posts: 475
Loc: North Carolina, USA
Her playing/technique also lacks a certain level of finesse and refinement that can be found in that of extremely high level pianists. She pushes her technique too far outside of her physical limitations and that makes her sound amateurish to be honest. For comparison:



_________________________
Schubert: Impromptus Op. 90, Nos. 2 and 4
Chopin: Etudes Op. 25, Nos. 10-12
Scriabin: Sonata No. 2

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#1917507 - 06/22/12 09:40 PM Re: Valentina Lisitsa at Royal Albert Hall [Re: suniil]
albynism Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/29/10
Posts: 321
I have to agree with Hakki that she seems to be disappointed right after the moonlight sonata before the intermission, the 3rd mov wasn't her best and she was tensed. but regained herself after the intermission. What constitutes a real pianist or not is debatable so I won't go into that. I think it takes a lot of courage to take all that risks and I have great respect for Ms Lisitsa and no doubt she will learn a lot from this experience.

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#1917818 - 06/23/12 06:54 PM Re: Valentina Lisitsa at Royal Albert Hall [Re: Damon]
Entheo Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/04
Posts: 1117
Loc: chicago, il
Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: Hakki
Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: Hakki

IMO, she is not a true pianist/musician. She really can't listen to what she is playing. She is somewhere between an amateur and a true pianist.


Amateurs can't be true pianists? Your bar seems pretty high. I don't know how you can have very many true pianists in your world. 5 or 6 at least, I hope!


No, they can't. That is why they are amateurs. Otherwise they wouldn't be amateurs anymore.
Hope I am as clear as I can be.


So true pianists get paid? Or are true pianists people who get paid and play the way you like? How good and how much money before you cross the (your) line? I consider you a good pianist despite your claim of amateur status. No offense but I think Lisitsa is better. I think we are working with different definitions here, making the conversation unnecessarily difficult.


yes, if the definition of a professional is "a person who is paid to undertake a specialized set of tasks and to complete them for a fee" then poor van gogh was an amateur as well since his brother was unable to sell any of his paintings during his lifetime. smirk
_________________________
diary of an amateur pianist

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#1917820 - 06/23/12 07:02 PM Re: Valentina Lisitsa at Royal Albert Hall [Re: Entheo]
Damon Online   happy
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6223
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: Entheo

yes, if the definition of a professional is "a person who is paid to undertake a specialized set of tasks and to complete them for a fee" then poor van gogh was an amateur as well since his brother was unable to sell any of his paintings during his lifetime. smirk


Yes, if Van Gogh received no money (or financial advantage) then he was an amateur painter. Expert ≠ professional.
_________________________
It's been scientifically proven that Horowitz sucks.

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#1917824 - 06/23/12 07:20 PM Re: Valentina Lisitsa at Royal Albert Hall [Re: Andromaque]
sophial Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 3485
Loc: US
Originally Posted By: Andromaque
I think that Hakki is being a bit too harsh I did skip to the Nocturne that Hakki pointed out and I found it to be utterly.. not to my taste. But perhaps a bit more seriously worse than that: it looses most of Chopin's spirit, lacks elegance and- what I would define as-musicality . With all due respects to Ms. Listsa.
I would be curious to hear what others thought of it.


I likewise was very unimpressed by the Chopin Nocturne. I can forgive mistakes but the clunkiness (sorry , but that is the best description I can come up with) of her interpretation was a real problem. It was not a performance I would have expected from someone commanding this kind of venue and audience. She might have been extremely nervous, but this looked more to me like a failure of artistry, not technique. I found her mouthings a bit offputting as well but again, would overlook any mannerisms if the musicianship was compelling. I kept thinking this was more like an Andrea Bocelli concert for the piano.


Edited by sophial (06/23/12 08:34 PM)

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#1917900 - 06/24/12 01:47 AM Re: Valentina Lisitsa at Royal Albert Hall [Re: suniil]
debrucey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 2606
Loc: Manchester, UK
The scriabin was the highlight for me. I had no problem with the chopin.

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#1918110 - 06/24/12 02:36 PM Re: Valentina Lisitsa at Royal Albert Hall [Re: suniil]
slipperykeys Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/03/12
Posts: 382
Loc: Dorset, England
There is a chance she played too fast from nerves, there is the probablity she may have played wrong or missed notes, she wasn't perfect and it appears anything less than perfection was either going to disappoint many, or provide the tool they have been aching to grab and bash her with.

I think she is brilliant and I loved every second. Here is a professional concert pianist who has actually let me watch her practice, how fantastic and entertaining was that?

She played 2 and a half hours of, at times, fiendishly difficult pieces without any sheet music.

As I understand it you are saying there are three levels,

1 True concert.
2 Less good but managing somehow.
3 The rest.


I have seen some of your posts on youtube and have no intention of criticising your excellent playing, I wish I was as good. However, I believe Valentina Lisitsa is considerably more than 1 level above yourself.

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#1918120 - 06/24/12 03:13 PM Re: Valentina Lisitsa at Royal Albert Hall [Re: Hakki]
Quaver Pyjama Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/26/11
Posts: 114
Originally Posted By: Hakki
Originally Posted By: Cherub Rocker
I was trying not to say anything but I don't think she can really hear what she's doing. When I listen to this performance I don't sense that she really knows what she's trying to say. Where's the phrasing? The singing tone?

It's so puzzling to me because I don't see anything in her technique that would hinder her musicianship, nothing wrong there.

I also don't believe true musicians are always paid more or get more recognition. It's much more than just about being a 'professional' or an 'amateur'. It has more to do with having something to say and knowing how to communicate it. In my definition Pogorelich, carey, and Vica are closer to what I would consider to be true 'professionals'. Why so much focus on money?


+1

I think Mrs.Lisitsa really needs a teacher.
It is never too late.

+2
No teacher will solve things, if she doesn't feel the music.
I may sound stupid because I wrote the same thing weeks ago, but for me the artist must play a melody as if he were singing it. Some do it better than others, but I only connect if I feel the artist's voice, so to speak. For example, I may argue that Argerich is sometimes too rushed - nevertheless I do feel touched by her personality, she feels the music and thus she moves me.
I just use the example of singing the melody to separate artists and non-artists, in a simple way. There are other things that I could say about her that would be related to that lack of feeling.

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#1918121 - 06/24/12 03:21 PM Re: Valentina Lisitsa at Royal Albert Hall [Re: slipperykeys]
Quaver Pyjama Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/26/11
Posts: 114
Originally Posted By: slipperykeys
There is a chance she played too fast from nerves, there is the probablity she may have played wrong or missed notes, she wasn't perfect and it appears anything less than perfection was either going to disappoint many, or provide the tool they have been aching to grab and bash her with.

I think she is brilliant and I loved every second. Here is a professional concert pianist who has actually let me watch her practice, how fantastic and entertaining was that?

She played 2 and a half hours of, at times, fiendishly difficult pieces without any sheet music.

As I understand it you are saying there are three levels,

1 True concert.
2 Less good but managing somehow.
3 The rest.


I have seen some of your posts on youtube and have no intention of criticising your excellent playing, I wish I was as good. However, I believe Valentina Lisitsa is considerably more than 1 level above yourself.

No she isn't smile
(in my humble opinion of course)
She only has more technique.
Listen to some of his videos and i'm sure they touch you more than Lisitsa's playing!

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#1918132 - 06/24/12 03:45 PM Re: Valentina Lisitsa at Royal Albert Hall [Re: Quaver Pyjama]
slipperykeys Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/03/12
Posts: 382
Loc: Dorset, England
Originally Posted By: Quaver Pyjama
Originally Posted By: slipperykeys
There is a chance she played too fast from nerves, there is the probablity she may have played wrong or missed notes, she wasn't perfect and it appears anything less than perfection was either going to disappoint many, or provide the tool they have been aching to grab and bash her with.

I think she is brilliant and I loved every second. Here is a professional concert pianist who has actually let me watch her practice, how fantastic and entertaining was that?

She played 2 and a half hours of, at times, fiendishly difficult pieces without any sheet music.

As I understand it you are saying there are three levels,

1 True concert.
2 Less good but managing somehow.
3 The rest.


I have seen some of your posts on youtube and have no intention of criticising your excellent playing, I wish I was as good. However, I believe Valentina Lisitsa is considerably more than 1 level above yourself.

No she isn't smile
(in my humble opinion of course)
She only has more technique.
Listen to some of his videos and i'm sure they touch you more than Lisitsa's playing!


Did you read what I wrote? I have listened, thank you. You have every right to your opinion, but please, don't tell me what I like.
PS, Love the use of the word, "only".

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#1918137 - 06/24/12 03:56 PM Re: Valentina Lisitsa at Royal Albert Hall [Re: suniil]
Kuanpiano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/10
Posts: 2151
Loc: Canada
Sad that nobody commented on her playing the Scriabin etude, op.65 no.1, and playing it very well! That piece is harder (and probably more physically impossible) than everything else on her programme (excluding probably the Totentanz and the Rachmaninoff Etude-Tableau).
_________________________
Working on:
Chopin - Andante Spianato and Grande Polonaise Brillante
Rachmaninoff - Preludes op. 23 nos. 3,4,6, op. 32 no.12
Franck - Violin Sonata

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#1918202 - 06/24/12 07:02 PM Re: Valentina Lisitsa at Royal Albert Hall [Re: Kuanpiano]
PianogrlNW Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/22/11
Posts: 305
Loc: Seattle, WA
I have been listening to her concert on YT and I quit after she played two heartless back to back Rach preludes. Ouch - it hurt to listen to her. Her playing underwhelms me. If her YT exposure gets people who are unfamiliar with classical piano to listen and learn, all the power to her.
_________________________


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#1918570 - 06/25/12 04:23 PM Re: Valentina Lisitsa at Royal Albert Hall [Re: suniil]
babama Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/15/08
Posts: 801
Loc: Netherlands
It has to be said that her youtube videos of pieces she played at the concert are quite a bit better than her concert performances.


Edited by babama (06/25/12 04:26 PM)

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#1918578 - 06/25/12 05:01 PM Re: Valentina Lisitsa at Royal Albert Hall [Re: suniil]
Andromaque Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/08
Posts: 3886
Loc: New York
So the link to the concert is no longer functional. I am assuming Decca inactivated it in view of the upcoming release on DVD?? But in looking for it, I came across this clip,; it left me incredulous, and I relaly do no tlack a sense of humor.
Title "Official Release PArty for the Royal ALbert Hall Recital", the self-deprecating clip features Ms. Lisistsa interviewing a ?cockroach (I think or a similarly disgusting creature). Said creature sits in her hand all the time, and is actually alive. I am cockroach-o-phobic and could not stomach the whole thing. But I find the clip to be kind of tasteless regardless of my bug disinclination.. what am I missing??

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