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#1919148 - 06/26/12 10:12 PM Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: DoelKees]
Minnesota Marty Online   content

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 6051
Loc: Rochester MN
Kees

Is your temperament in USD or CAD?
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#1919150 - 06/26/12 10:16 PM Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: Emmery]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3036
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: Emmery
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT


Helmholtz' theoretical frequencies, the Braide-White book and all of the other tuning books that had been written during the 20th Century along with Isacoff's "Temperament" and his identification of ET as the "final solution" have served to solidify the notion in most people's minds that ET is the one and only way to tune a piano and the foundation for virtually all music. It is simply not true!


You seem to forget the fact that 99.9% of people who have come to accept ET as the final solution also had ears, they didn't just go on a website, read a few favourable ET pitches from what most folks see as marketing stooges, and call it "final".
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT

During the 19th Century, as temperaments became milder and edged closer to the ET theoretical model, virtually any temperament where all tonalities were useful and accessible, they were considered to be "equal" even though by today's standards they would not be.


This is a supposition, not fact. I have not seen any proclomation from any tuner, or read from any book that any temperament other than ET is "equal". You can't change math and physics of sound on strings.

Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT

For authors such as Braide-White and others to deliberately ignore and suppress knowledge about the many temperament ideas that actually worked and were used, in an effort to promote their ET only crusades, the tactic had a quite unintended effect. It caused people to believe that any attempt they made at ET was, in fact, ET.


It was not a tactic Bill. Its reality. They preferred to stay within the confines of what the maximum allowable stretch for an octave is....and 99% of tuners still follow this. Stretching an octave to get the intervals more pure is not a brainchild invention, even Pythagorus was aware of it 500 years BC. Its just nobody has had the gall to try and re-define what "acceptable" is...that is untill now.

Also, you are the only person on the internet preaching that the majority of ET tunings are reverse well. For many people like myself who were initially trained by proffesionals, the topic of reverse well was introduced very early on and we were instructed exactly how to avoid it. I am not sure why you are so naive to think that the majority of tuners are not aware of reverse well. I am not sure why you would assume that those ETD only or hybrid tuners would deliberately sabotage their temperament aurally to reverse well. The ETD's certainly are not programmed to produce it.

Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT

Many of the technicians who participate in this forum are highly skilled and are among the elite who actually can construct ET aurally. That, I know. However, as I have said many times, my experience in helping people learn to tune and participation in tuning exams has shown me that at least half, if not a majority of professional tuners cannot really tune ET at all! Most depend upon an ETD to do that for them.


In many peoples view, this just simply means that you attract these types of techs around you. I guess that sucks. My experiences and other techs I talk to, disagree with your assertations. We all have experienced following up behind other techs. Your stats are highly dubious. I can say with pretty strong certainty that at least half the techs out there in North America have ETD's, and this by default means they are not tuning reverse well. If the possible other half (aural only)are all tuning reverse well, you must be in a different dimension.

Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT

Creators of ETD's and the software also worked with ET as a model and of the four people whom I have known personally that created those devices and software, they also firmly believed in ET as the one and only correct way to tune a piano. It was only the demand from a relatively small group of people that they also included a way to tune a piano in some other way.

Not sure what your point is Bill. I highly doubt we will have an ETD out there with a historical temperament as the default setting. This just isn't going to happen.
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT

It has taken the long and slow process of re-introduction of non-equal temperaments to the public, those who actually play the piano and listen to the music produced by those pianos for the inherent beauty found naturally in the Cycle of Fifths to once again captivate people's attention.


That is until they play a B and an f# together...then they look for music without that interval to play, or come to accept a 5th that beats more than twice as fast as a fourth does in ET.


Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT

...That is the reason why, at least on this Piano Tuner-Technician Forum, we see so many postings of non-equal temperaments. With those, there is at least something to evaluate...


It is also the reason why many high caliber tuners who used to frequent here, no longer do. The sites they do frequent, contain no discussions of the non ET malarky I often see here.

I have not had a single person who has listened to any of the recordings here differentiate between which ones are ET and not. Fellow techs I've talked to, have found the same thing. I have two identical pianos in my living room with one of them tuned ET and the other to EBVT3. Piano teachers, several musicians/composers and numerous music afficiandos cannot tell which ones which. They mostly feel that they are both ET but the EBVT3 one sounds poorly tuned and "somewhat strange". Its ludicrous to think lesser informed people have the capacity to differentiate on notes that are altered by fractions of a cent and pick up on it in a musical context with any real idea of whats going on.

Bill, please don't imply here that some snowball effect is happening with EBVT. All the postings and musings in this forum alone come from the same few cohorts as they originally did.

A good temperament that effectively helps convey music, stands on its own and needs no town cryers suggesting its usefullness. This is how ET got established to where it is now. The public spoke and the public validated it. If something better comes along, it should be able to find its viability on its own merits, not smoke and mirrors recordings, marketing hype from a few followers...and last but not least, ludicrous ascertations that the majority of tuners are not actually tuning ET.



Thank you for continuing to offer free advertising for my business.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1919155 - 06/26/12 10:23 PM Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: Ryan Hassell]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3036
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: Ryan Hassell
"Randomly Beating Frontier Temperament"!!!!! That's funny stuff right there!!! LOL!!!!!!


LOL, I saw on one thread where it must have been a pianist who wondered what ET and EBVT meant. I don't know if anyone answered him but I was tempted to make a joke of it too but decided not to.

Anyway, if you simply Google EBVT, somewhere down the list, you get an Acronym definition. I was tempted to say this:

ET = Extra Terrestrial

EBVT = Exterior Ballistic Verification Projectile

Oddly enough, I think those two definitions actually apply!
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1919158 - 06/26/12 10:29 PM Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: Ryan Hassell]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3036
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: Ryan Hassell
Alright, I'm going to be brave here. I posted a recording of me playing a piano I tuned today at a church. It is a Baldwin Grand, I believe it is an "M" from the mid 1960s. Lots of miles on this piano, but it still has a pretty sound.

I tuned it with Tunelab (iPhone app) with 8:4 octaves in the bass and 4:2 in the treble and the offsets for EBVT 3 layered on top of the tuning curve that Tunelab calculated for that piano.

Please try not to be too harsh, I've never really had one of my tunings critiqued by other tuners, except my mentor of course. :-) It is NOT a professional recording, all I did was set my iPhone on the music rack and record.

I'm interested to know what you all think. The song is "Jesus Keep Me Near the Cross" and was in the key of "F"

http://www.hassellspianotuning.com/recordings

Yes, that is the creak of the pedal at the very end...I guess I need to fix that for them. LOL!



Thanks Ryan,

I certainly did enjoy that. I would much rather hear that than the Reverse Well that I heard at my niece's church in Los Angeles the last time I was there.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1919160 - 06/26/12 10:32 PM Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Ryan Hassell Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/07/09
Posts: 413
Loc: Farmington, MO
Bill,

Was it even close to the way you tune the EBVT3? I have always really liked the sound, but have always wondered if I'm even close to the way you tune it.
_________________________
Ryan G. Hassell
Hassell's Piano Tuning
Farmington, MO
www.hassellspianotuning.com
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Hassells-Piano-Tuning/163155880804
ryanhassell@hotmail.com

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#1919165 - 06/26/12 10:41 PM Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: Ryan Hassell]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3036
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: Ryan Hassell
Bill,

Was it even close to the way you tune the EBVT3? I have always really liked the sound, but have always wondered if I'm even close to the way you tune it.


Ryan, since you asked for my opinion, yes, I do recognize the distinct key of F in your recording. However, I think the unisons could use improvement. They are really the hardest to perfect, so don't take that comment too harshly. I don't really know the piano you are working on but some Baldwins can be very difficult to make sound really clean as far as unisons go. Keep in mind that what I just said was what Kamin said about Andy's piano. I can't make that piano have clean sounding unisons no matter what I do!

I did hear a really nice sounding high treble at the end. I encourage you to keep working on it and post some more recordings, for sure.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1919167 - 06/26/12 10:45 PM Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: Loren D]
Ryan Hassell Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/07/09
Posts: 413
Loc: Farmington, MO
Thanks Bill!
_________________________
Ryan G. Hassell
Hassell's Piano Tuning
Farmington, MO
www.hassellspianotuning.com
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Hassells-Piano-Tuning/163155880804
ryanhassell@hotmail.com

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#1919169 - 06/26/12 10:47 PM Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: DoelKees]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3036
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Originally Posted By: Loren D
Hey, what's DoelKees13? If you have the sequence, I'd like to try it. smile Is it anything like JTTPA XXXIV?

The offsets are below. It based on a 1/13' interpretation of Bach's scribble, in a different order than Lehman. There is a prominent harpischordist player that has independently arrived at the same temperament.

C 4.96
C# 0.60
D 1.65
D# 2.71
E -1.65
F 6.62
F# 0.45
G 3.31
G# 0.75
A 0.00
A# 4.66
B 0.30

Kees


Kees, have you got a graph from Jason Kanter on this yet? If not, I would encourage it. If so, please post it. I would love to see it. Better yet, post your temperament and the Lehman side by side. That should be interesting.


Edited by Bill Bremmer RPT (06/26/12 10:54 PM)
Edit Reason: additional comment
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1919173 - 06/26/12 10:57 PM Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
beethoven986 Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 3295
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
I don't really know the piano you are working on but some Baldwins can be very difficult to make sound really clean as far as unisons go.


Definitely true! Mine has A LOT of false beats, which I blame on the person who rebuilt it. It bothers me to the point that it will become my first bridge recapping/restringing job when I have the funds (and space) to spare. Baldwin bridge pinning can also be pretty sloppy from the factory, from what I've seen.


Completely unrelated, though.... Bill, one of the recordings on your website is incorrectly labeled as Brahms (in the Ampico section); it is a Schubert impromptu smile
_________________________
B.Mus. Piano Performance 2009
M.Mus. Piano Performance & Literature 2011
PTG Associate Member
Certified Dampp-Chaser installer

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#1919175 - 06/26/12 11:02 PM Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: beethoven986]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3036
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: beethoven986


Completely unrelated, though.... Bill, one of the recordings on your website is incorrectly labeled as Brahms (in the Ampico section); it is a Schubert impromptu smile


Thanks for the heads up. I don't have any direct control over what is posted on there. It does need to be updated but I really have not have time to do anything about it for about a year now.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1919176 - 06/26/12 11:02 PM Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1540
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Originally Posted By: Loren D
Hey, what's DoelKees13? If you have the sequence, I'd like to try it. smile Is it anything like JTTPA XXXIV?

The offsets are below. It based on a 1/13' interpretation of Bach's scribble, in a different order than Lehman. There is a prominent harpischordist player that has independently arrived at the same temperament.

C 4.96
C# 0.60
D 1.65
D# 2.71
E -1.65
F 6.62
F# 0.45
G 3.31
G# 0.75
A 0.00
A# 4.66
B 0.30

Kees


Kees, have you got a graph from Jason Kanter on this yet? If not, I would encourage it. If so, please post it. I would love to see it. Better yet, post your temperament and the Lehman side by side. That should be interesting.

No. Basically it's like Bach-Lehmann but in BL the worst key is E major, which I don't like. In this scheme C# major is the worst key which makes more sense.

I like the temperament, but for F minor the Lehman tuning is better. I think Bach intended it to be read two ways, depending on the music you play. But I have no proof of this whatsoever.

As as side note, the "Bach organ" in Leipzig Germany (where Bach was Cantor) is tuned almost like this.

Kees

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#1919187 - 06/26/12 11:26 PM Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: DoelKees]
Cinnamonbear Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3722
Loc: Rockford, IL
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Originally Posted By: Loren D
Hey, what's DoelKees13? If you have the sequence, I'd like to try it. smile Is it anything like JTTPA XXXIV?

The offsets are below. It based on a 1/13' interpretation of Bach's scribble, in a different order than Lehman. There is a prominent harpischordist player that has independently arrived at the same temperament.

C 4.96
C# 0.60
D 1.65
D# 2.71
E -1.65
F 6.62
F# 0.45
G 3.31
G# 0.75
A 0.00
A# 4.66
B 0.30

Kees


Kees,

I just want you to know that a harpsichord is coming my way later this summer, at which time I will happily try your temperament 13 (and others!). At one point, when my dad walked the earth, he built it from a kit with one of his piano students (whose dad was a harpsichord builder), and it has been in storage by a friend of mine for a number of years, now. My wife says, "No more pianos come into the house until an equal number of pianos go out of the house." I say, "It's not a piano!" grin

--Andy
_________________________
I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.

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#1919208 - 06/27/12 12:19 AM Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
beethoven986 Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 3295
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
Originally Posted By: beethoven986


Completely unrelated, though.... Bill, one of the recordings on your website is incorrectly labeled as Brahms (in the Ampico section); it is a Schubert impromptu smile


Thanks for the heads up. I don't have any direct control over what is posted on there. It does need to be updated but I really have not have time to do anything about it for about a year now.


I hear ya! Since it seems like I'm being forced into self-employment (And I do mean forced. I want to work for a shop, but with this economy....), I'm building a website, and it's a pain.
_________________________
B.Mus. Piano Performance 2009
M.Mus. Piano Performance & Literature 2011
PTG Associate Member
Certified Dampp-Chaser installer

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#1919215 - 06/27/12 12:33 AM Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: beethoven986]
Cinnamonbear Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3722
Loc: Rockford, IL
Originally Posted By: beethoven986
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
Originally Posted By: beethoven986


Completely unrelated, though.... Bill, one of the recordings on your website is incorrectly labeled as Brahms (in the Ampico section); it is a Schubert impromptu smile


Thanks for the heads up. I don't have any direct control over what is posted on there. It does need to be updated but I really have not have time to do anything about it for about a year now.


I hear ya! Since it seems like I'm being forced into self-employment (And I do mean forced. I want to work for a shop, but with this economy....), I'm building a website, and it's a pain.


Self-employment has its advantages, B9! Every day is a faith proposition, to be sure, but guess what? Do a good job for one fussy customer, and your phone will continue to ring. All the best to you as you make your way!!!
_________________________
I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.

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#1919297 - 06/27/12 07:03 AM Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: Loren D]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2545
Loc: PA
I love being self-employed! 2014 will be 30 years, and I wouldn't have it any other way.
_________________________
DiGiorgi Piano Service (1984-2013)
http://www.digiorgipiano.com

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#1919301 - 06/27/12 07:28 AM Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: Loren D]
Mark R. Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 1865
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
I'd like to add two cents to this thread.

1) Loren, I'm glad you like EBVT III. I've tried to tune it - albeit on a harpsichord. I followed Bill's instructions as closely I could, even e-mailed him directly about my problems, but in the end I lost a long battle to get Ab maj. and F# maj. to sound at all pleasant to me. (Subsequently, another forum member wrote to me that the G#-C M3 is difficult to keep from going too wide.) According to you,

Quote:
When tuned correctly, nothing is dissonant.


That either means I did something incorrectly (although each step checked out with Bill's instructions and supplementary tips), or is it perhaps conceivable that your statement is a bit too absolute, because different people have have different concepts of consonance and dissonance?

2) About the partisanship Phil mentioned: Bill may see all of this as "advertisement", but for beginners who are eager to learn from everyone, this is very unfortunate. It appears that any contrary opinion or critique, clearly and systematically as it may be presented, will immediately be seen as a personal affront. (In fact I'm already worried because I've just said I found the "spicy" keys unpleasant.)
_________________________
Autodidact interested in piano technology.

1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

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#1919310 - 06/27/12 07:39 AM Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: Mark R.]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2545
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: Mark R.
I'd like to add two cents to this thread.

1) Loren, I'm glad you like EBVT III. I've tried to tune it - albeit on a harpsichord. I followed Bill's instructions as closely I could, even e-mailed him directly about my problems, but in the end I lost a long battle to get Ab maj. and F# maj. to sound at all pleasant to me. (Subsequently, another forum member wrote to me that the G#-C M3 is difficult to keep from going too wide.) According to you,

Quote:
When tuned correctly, nothing is dissonant.


That either means I did something incorrectly (although each step checked out with Bill's instructions and supplementary tips), or is it perhaps conceivable that your statement is a bit too absolute, because different people have have different concepts of consonance and dissonance?



I'd say it's either the latter or perhaps a combination of both? Whether something is dissonant or not is certainly going to be subjective, so it's possible we just have different degrees of tolerance in what we call dissonant.

That said though, you are absolutely correct that Ab and F# are the standout keys; I've noticed that also and may have even mentioned it earlier in the thread (or a different thread).

Per my ear, I've not heard them sounding "wrong," though. Certainly opinions on that will come into play though from listener to listener.
_________________________
DiGiorgi Piano Service (1984-2013)
http://www.digiorgipiano.com

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#1919355 - 06/27/12 09:28 AM Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: Loren D]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3036
Loc: Madison, WI USA
The A-flat Major and F# Major M3's in the EBVT III are both 16 cents wide. That is only 2 cents wider than they are in ET. They would, of course be wider than ET in any Well Temperament. Therefore, in Mark's case, I believe that either he must somehow be making them wider than they should be or even a mere 2 cents is wider than he can tolerate.

I developed the EBVT entirely by ear, using my own sense of what would be either too wide or not wide enough for M3's for what I deemed the "contemporary ear" to be able to tolerate. Certainly, there are a very few people who are so attuned and sensitive to ET that the very slightest departure from it sounds "wrong" to them. However, given what I know about the kinds of errors that most aural tuners can make, a 2 cent error in a M3 would certainly be within the range of errors that many aural tuners would make.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1919454 - 06/27/12 12:02 PM Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: Loren D]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
I find it funny that one person says 99.9 % of tuners don't like EBVT III etc., yet, 99.9% of the people AND tuners in this thread and others, DO like it and "we" do use it. grin
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#1919464 - 06/27/12 12:11 PM Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: Jerry Groot RPT]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4182
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
Originally Posted By: Jerry Groot RPT
I find it funny that one person says 99.9 % of tuners don't like EBVT III etc., yet, 99.9% of the people AND tuners in this thread and others, DO like it and "we" do use it. grin


Not much in the way of a yardstick for measurement; a few members of an obscure forum in one corner of the planet. What is the total maybe 50-100 people?

Even 5 thousand would still be too small a sample worldwide to make any significance in numbers.
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1919480 - 06/27/12 12:27 PM Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: Loren D]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
Obscure? hardly...

Well, then, let's use the yardstick of people that I know personally that do use it and do like it. Including techs and pianists. The number of people that like it and do use it, is a lot more and it is catching on rather quickly.

Let's also use the yardstick of people that know of other techs that personally use or prefer EBVT III as well... That too, will be a much larger yardstick or number.

If there were 10,000 piano tuners world wide and 2,000 of them liked it, and/or used it, then that becomes 80/20. Either way, I believe, the number of users and "likes" is much, much, lower than 99.9 %.

Attend a PTG convention and ask once.... The difference may surprise you. It did me.
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#1919494 - 06/27/12 12:47 PM Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: Loren D]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4182
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
This is a pretty obscure forum Jerry. 300 million in the US and 35 million in Canada which makes up most of North America. And this is not counting the population of Europe which would drive the percentages down even farther….….

How many members in this place? Maybe 60-70 thousand now? What is that percentage out of the entire population of the planet? An even less percentage wants this kind of tuning?

From what I see here only a very small percentage of people know or want this kind of abstracted tuning in their life.

Attending a PTG convention and asking a question such as this is not a good representation for any kind of in- depth survey.

I wouldn’t spend the time to even ask as this issue is of little importance to me, and further, I can see it is of little importance to many, as we can all witness very few in the way of PW members participating in these continual threads about one particular way of tuning.

Have fun with your numbers. Of all the things to do and accomplish in life this is not very important.

But any way you see it is just fine with me.

_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1919505 - 06/27/12 01:05 PM Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: Loren D]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
If it is not very important, they why do you always dispute me in such matters as this?
It is my opinion and it is also what I see and what I have learned from other tuners as well. Where does Emmery get his 99.9 % number? There is no such number.

I am simply pointing out that the figure of 99.9 % is inaccurate. Nobody knows the numbers for sure. But, we do know that more and more people are using it.

Asking other tuners is most certainly a viable answer as to how many other tuners use it and/or, what they do use. We are the ones using or, not using it and a PTG convention where you may have around 1,000 tuners there, is an excellent place to ask this question.
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#1919524 - 06/27/12 01:27 PM Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: Loren D]
ClsscLib Online   content

Platinum Supporter until Jan 02 2013


Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 1589
Loc: Northern VA, U.S.
I'm just an outside observor of this debate, and while it is perhaps being conducted in "an obscure forum in one corner of the planet," that forum seems pretty popular among piano enthusiasts from around the world.

Anyway, on one hand appear to be those who say, "we've tried EBVT and we really, really like it." On the other hand are those who seem to say, "EBVT is wrong and shouldn't be tried."

If it's all the same to you folks, I think I'll try it myself and make up my own mind.

Bill, your critics have gotten you another customer.
_________________________


"People may say I can't sing, but no one can ever say I didn't sing."

-- Florence Foster Jenkins

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#1919533 - 06/27/12 01:35 PM Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: Jerry Groot RPT]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4182
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
Originally Posted By: Jerry Groot RPT
If it is not very important, they why do you always dispute me in such matters as this?
It is my opinion and it is also what I see and what I have learned from other tuners as well. Where does Emmery get his 99.9 % number? There is no such number.

I am simply pointing out that the figure of 99.9 % is inaccurate. Nobody knows the numbers for sure. But, we do know that more and more people are using it.

Asking other tuners is most certainly a viable answer as to how many other tuners use it and/or, what they do use. We are the ones using or, not using it and a PTG convention where you may have around 1,000 tuners there, is an excellent place to ask this question.



I find it very interesting that when you post an opinion it is your opinion. Then if Emmery or myself post a rebuttal opinion it is considered a dispute or badgering.

Do you see the partisanship there that Phil mentioned on the last page?

Are we not having a discussion with differing points of view?
Using your thought process and your suggestion to attend and complete an in depth survey at the PTG convention thing then I should attend a beer convention in Bavaria and say;

“Hey guys I just invented a new kind of beer. Want to try?”
Would any of the beer makers say no? I wouldn’t think so.

It is the same as going to a piano tuner convention and saying ;

"Hey I have a new temperament. Wanna try?" Of course they are going to be interested. But that does not translate into the new sequence becoming rapidly popular amongst the general public.

Your thinking is flawed there. But once again no-one is denying your enthusiasm for something you like.

You just cannot deny anyone else their opinion of the matter.

As I stated previously in the scheme of life, this is not a burning issue for most people.

_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1919566 - 06/27/12 02:36 PM Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: Loren D]
Ed Foote Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 970
Loc: Tennessee
>>How many members in this place? Maybe 60-70 thousand now? What is that percentage out of the entire population of the planet? An even less percentage wants this kind of tuning?
From what I see here only a very small percentage of people know or want this kind of abstracted tuning in their life.<<

Greetings,
Well, you see a very different world than I do. It is a bit strawish to start including the world population in the sample of which the temperament debate is applicable. How about just the piano playing public? Total them up if you like, but I prefer to take percentages of local users.

I can only describe what I experience, and that is the majority of my customers have left ET behind. The majority of the new customers either ask about the "difference" they have heard about my tuning or don't care about anything beyond octaves and unisons. There is an increasingly widespread use of these temperaments, and all the modern, programmable machines have gone to some effort to serve that population of tuners.
>>I wouldn’t spend the time to even ask as this issue is of little importance to me, and further, I can see it is of little importance to many, as we can all witness very few in the way of PW members participating in these continual threads about one particular way of tuning.<<

There might be a lot more lurkers than you know. Which is not surprising, since the debate between mono-temperament techs and multi-temperament ones is tedious without there being a couple of instruments to compare. It is sort of like arguing what a banana should taste like. We can talk all day and never communicate as much as 3 seconds of tasting one. I specifically used a temperament for Beethoven's "Pathetique" on our first CD that used a 21 cent tonic third in the second mvt. It is easy to find out people's perspective when that passage is as dreary as possible, and Ab in a 18th century tuning is about as dreary as it gets. I hope to get that CD up on the web at some point, (but still working getting the later one up sooner).

There are significantly more tuners and customers involved in non-ET tuning than there were 17 years ago. A lot more. We don't all use one non-ET temperament, there are several that are very valuable for their improvement without noticeably changing the pitch of any one note, and I am finding more and more professional musicians (Nashville is full of them), that really like the variety.
Regards,

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#1919579 - 06/27/12 03:02 PM Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: Loren D]
Minnesota Marty Online   content

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 6051
Loc: Rochester MN
Well Mr. Silverwood, all that you have stated above is your opinion. Why shouldn't Jerry be able to express his?

I wonder what your opinion is about the number of musicians as opposed to the number of piano tuners on the planet?

Now my opinion:

Musicians hear things differently than tuners. I include more than just pianists. Orchestras and choirs perform in UT. The Bach B-minor Mass would not be performed the same way if it were in B-Flat minor. It certainly would be different in C-minor.

Musicianship and musicality takes precedence over stretch and cents to a performing musician. Myself included. This pianist prefers his pianos tuned to EBTV, and no, I don't know which version. Each one of the three may be slightly different, and frankly, I don't really care about the nuts and bolts of how it was done. That is what tuners do. I play.

It has been pointed out that I should not make comments in this forum as I am not a member of the trade. However, the trade exists to perform service to musicians. If my opinion is not of interest to you, so be it. It will not cease the statement of my opinions. Please remember that the Tuner-Technician Forum is just a very small part of Piano World. Please don't live in a closed box.

I have learned a great deal in this forum. I have greater appreciation for all that is involved in the tuning and maintenance of my pianos. Having a piano rebuilt was a wonderful learning experience.

We all have much to learn from each other.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#1919587 - 06/27/12 03:22 PM Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: Loren D]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4182
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada

Thanks for posting your local experiences Ed. This does indeed confirm that we all have clients with differing wishes and can share those experiences here with others.

For myself I would have to state that I don’t see a lot of requests for this kind of thing locally. I do tunings occasionally for local early music societies that ask for harpsichord tunings and things of that nature. They ask for Victorian sequences for which I oblige.
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1919600 - 06/27/12 04:08 PM Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: Loren D]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2328
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
I can certainly agree with one thing that has been posted by numerous people sitting on both sides of the fence. Its the fact that the average public does not have the ears to tell the difference between ET and an alternative temperament that varies from it by a few cents here and there. Heck, even techs with good ears would mistake EBVT for a sloppy ET tuning.

What this means in regards to the topic of how many prefer this temperament or that is, average people are extremely susceptable to suggestion, hype, misdirection, downplaying or ignoring the less favourable intervals ect... Unfortunately when the reality catches up with them and it suddenly comes to light that only a few people "claim" to see an improvement, only a few of the (often) same people hype it online, only a few of the same people post endless recordings ect... it begins to take the same shape and form of what all "fads" are sculpted to begin as. Perhaps Bill would be happy with "fad" status, maybe he has higher asperations than this, I don't know. The marketing approach of bombarding a single forum with endless recordings and accolades with the associated numerous non related "bump postings" from a small select group of followers bears this out.

One thing for sure IMHO is that something rock solid that has few or no hidden negative characteristics is never marketed or publically discussed in such a way where questions, comments, dissenting opinions/criticisms are met with insults, labelled as berating, vitriolic or badgerring in nature. This type of response is a dead sure giveaway that a rebuttal is lacking or has no substance.

I do respect the opinions of a few who try to reason out and validate their tastes in temperaments, don't agee with them but at least they have taken a back seat approach to letting the temperament rest on its own merits...not professing to the public that 99% of the tunings out there (ET)are inferior to the one which is a slightly modified version of it.

Jerry, my 99.9% numbers came from a sample of the Toronto and surrounding area yellow page listings of tuners which number about 45, for a population of aprox 3 million people. 25 of the techs were called by phone and 22 of them did not even hear of EBVT, (obviously they don't come to this site). The rest of the techs heard about it but found it so insignificant in their business, they never bothered to tune it. The motto of "stick with what your good at" is not a bad one to follow for business if one wants to travel on a safe path. Adding that .1% in favour of EBVT Jerry, was simply a gesture of good faith on my behalf, considerring that there might be a slight chance a tech would claim to tune it, fully knowing that the customer won't be pulling out an ETD afterwards to validate it.

Even if 1% of the tunings offered by tuners worldwide take the form of EBVT and its variants, this is a remarkable achievement. Consider the fact that there are hundreds of alternative and historic temperaments out there and not one has ever taken a foothold against ET since its come into widespread use.


Edited by Emmery (06/27/12 04:08 PM)
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#1919607 - 06/27/12 04:29 PM Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: Loren D]
Minnesota Marty Online   content

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 6051
Loc: Rochester MN
And again ..... The very same Yada, Yada, Yada.

"Average people" do not consider themselves to be musicians. And certainly not proven musicians.

Emmery, you continually berate musicians. Why is this so, since you make your living from them, not from "average people?"
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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