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Topic Options
#1922822 - 07/05/12 12:37 AM Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: Loren D]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3226
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Once again, I had nothing to do whatsoever with what looks to me like a promotional graphic. I have strictly avoided the mention of the name of the temperament I developed in most of my recent posts. I never put put my own name as a label of any kind on what I do. I don't "sell" my material to anyone. I have suggested people explore virtually any non-equal temperament. Ironically however, the best "advertising" I have ever profited from has been by those who say that what I do would not work, could not work and should not be tried. So to that, I say, keep it coming. You are doing me a favor from which you will never profit but I will.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1928247 - 07/17/12 07:57 PM Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: Loren D]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
See to me, a C major triad in ET just sounds ghastly. I find that more of a "wolf" than anything I hear in EBVT. "In tune" is definitely subjective, as someone else correctly pointed out.
_________________________
DiGiorgi Piano Service (1984-2013)
http://www.digiorgipiano.com

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#1928293 - 07/17/12 11:03 PM Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: Loren D]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1724
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: Loren D
See to me, a C major triad in ET just sounds ghastly. I find that more of a "wolf" than anything I hear in EBVT. "In tune" is definitely subjective, as someone else correctly pointed out.

OK so tune your C major triad perfectly. It will sounds great.

Next play a C major scale. It won't sound good. In particular the E is lower than any singer would intonate.

So melody and harmony are have different requirements. In medieval times there was only melody and Pythagorean tuning ruled. This is still true in all non-western musics. And ET is an excellent approximation of Pythagorean temperament.

Harmony changes everything and now we care about intervals, mainly M3. Why? Because in ET P5 is almost perfect but M3 is awful. Look up the beat rates.

How to balance melodic and harmonic demands with just 12 keys is an art. ET is the mean of all those arts over all keys, but taking into account that keys are treated differently by all composers except the Viennese atonal school, the average should presumably be weighted taking into account common use, and this leads to WT.

Pro tuners resist because it requires them to expand their skill set. It is very comforting to learn to tune ET and then pretend there is no need to learn more and just tune.

Kees

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#1928318 - 07/18/12 12:24 AM Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: DoelKees]
Cinnamonbear Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3905
Loc: Rockford, IL
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
[...] Pro tuners resist because it requires them to expand their skill set. It is very comforting to learn to tune ET and then pretend there is no need to learn more and just tune.


This is what I have suspected for a while, now, after hashing through some of these contentious threads...
_________________________
I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.

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#1928319 - 07/18/12 12:44 AM Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: Cinnamonbear]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1724
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: Cinnamonbear
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
[...] Pro tuners resist because it requires them to expand their skill set. It is very comforting to learn to tune ET and then pretend there is no need to learn more and just tune.


This is what I have suspected for a while, now, after hashing through some of these contentious threads...

And from a practical point of view they are probably right.

They can fly in Bill Bremmer if they really want EBVT3, or me if they want Bach13 (as has happened on one occasion).

Kees

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#1928336 - 07/18/12 01:46 AM Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: DoelKees]
Cinnamonbear Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3905
Loc: Rockford, IL
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Originally Posted By: Cinnamonbear
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
[...] Pro tuners resist because it requires them to expand their skill set. It is very comforting to learn to tune ET and then pretend there is no need to learn more and just tune.


This is what I have suspected for a while, now, after hashing through some of these contentious threads...

And from a practical point of view they are probably right.

They can fly in Bill Bremmer if they really want EBVT3, or me if they want Bach13 (as has happened on one occasion).

Kees


[edit]: Can they fly in Kamin, too? (You are too witty for me, Kees! wink ) [/edit]

So... Practically speaking? Chuch Belknap managed to tune a very pleasant, recognizable EBVT III aurally, recently, and proved it. Jerry Groot, Patrick Wingren and Inlanding (Glen) tuned it, too, and proved it. Grandpianoman continues to tune fine EBVT III with an ETD, and Roy Peters did it that way, too.

Personally, I like open-minded tuners who, if I would happen to say, "I'd like to try Bach13 this time," would say, "Sure thing! Coming right up!" grin

--Andy


Edited by Cinnamonbear (07/18/12 03:01 AM)
Edit Reason: just got it... to wit...
_________________________
I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.

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#1928385 - 07/18/12 04:32 AM Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: Loren D]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
Kees, I agree that in ET, 3rds are awful. We are used to it. We're used to awful. I love smooth, musical 3rds. I also love clean 5ths. I know we can't have both and still expect to be able to play western music, but my ear pulls me toward those musical 3rds.
_________________________
DiGiorgi Piano Service (1984-2013)
http://www.digiorgipiano.com

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#1928901 - 07/19/12 06:24 AM Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: Loren D]
Mark R. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 2012
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
Originally Posted By: Loren D
in ET, 3rds are awful. We are used to it. We're used to awful. I love smooth, musical 3rds.


Just yesterday, Bill wrote that the sound of ET major keys is the same as A Major in a WT. So, if ET M3s are awful, do you find that A major in EBVT-III sounds "awful" too? And if it does, what about those remote keys? They are even less "smooth and musical" than A Major. By that measure, E Major should actually sound gruesome, B Major horrific, and F# major should be a right-down ghastly emetic.

Again, I ask:

How is it that busy M3s are called "spicy" when they form part of a WT, but even 14 cent M3s are called "awful" when they form part of ET?

On the other hand, if A Major sounds fine in EBVT-III, pray tell, why do you call it "awful" in ET?

If A major sounds fine in EBVT-III, then by Bill's words it is just as fine in ET. And again by Bill's words: seeing that all keys sound like A major in ET, I conclude that ET sounds fine!

(I've never seen anyone avoid A Major in a WT just because it has that "awful ET sound".)
_________________________
Autodidact interested in piano technology.

1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

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#1928908 - 07/19/12 06:58 AM Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: Loren D]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
I just like smooth 3rds. In a WT at least many of the keys are significantly smoother, leading me to hear a more musical sound overall.
_________________________
DiGiorgi Piano Service (1984-2013)
http://www.digiorgipiano.com

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#1928935 - 07/19/12 07:57 AM Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: Loren D]
jim ialeggio Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 635
Loc: shirley, MA
Originally Posted By: Loren D
I just like smooth 3rds. In a WT at least many of the keys are significantly smoother, leading me to hear a more musical sound overall.


This could be the defining difference that determines a persons "innate" bias towards what temperament sound turns them on.

Over the years I've noticed great variablity between individual musician', attraction to, and/or tolerance of sounds based on and defined by fifths, and octaves, as opposed to sounds defined more by thirds.

Although there might be a glitch in this theory, as though impressionists like Debussy use lush piles of thirds, I still prefer to hear his music with the even acceptably quiet fifth of ET. On the other hand, though his music piles up the thirds, the thirds are not used in common practice harmonic constructions, based on the cycle of fifths, leading one tonal region to the next...they are more static, "eastern", and don't necessarily leed you anywhere tonally... they are just lush sounds.

Just thinkin' out loud

Jim Ialeggio
_________________________
Jim Ialeggio
www.grandpianosolutions.com
advanced soundboard and action redesigns
978 425-9026
Shirley Center, MA

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#1928951 - 07/19/12 08:41 AM Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: Mark R.]
Ed Foote Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 1164
Loc: Tennessee
Originally Posted By: Mark R.

Just yesterday, Bill wrote that the sound of ET major keys is the same as A Major in a WT. So, if ET M3s are awful, do you find that A major in EBVT-III sounds "awful" too? And if it does, what about those remote keys? They are even less "smooth and musical" than A Major. By that measure, E Major should actually sound gruesome, B Major horrific, and F# major should be a right-down ghastly emetic.

Again, I ask:

How is it that busy M3s are called "spicy" when they form part of a WT, but even 14 cent M3s are called "awful" when they form part of ET?
(I've never seen anyone avoid A Major in a WT just because it has that "awful ET sound".)


Greetings,
For myself, the horror of ET is the sameness, not the size of the third. That 14 cent third is just another tonal value, something that can be successfully resolved to from somewhere even more expressive. It is a perfectly useful width, (or color,if you like). However, a WT has a range of values, and ET does not, which is the crux of the temperament debate. Some hear the music working with the changes in keys, others do not.

It is not unlike the "Magic Eye" pictures, in which some people are able to see the hidden, synthesized image. Those that cannot will never be convinced by hearing others describe it, they will only really grasp it when they see it. Once the sound of ET is heard in the context of a wider range of intonation, it's real nature becomes more obvious. Side by side pianos, tuned in ET and WT, will usually do this. I've done it, a lot. With rooms full of techs, or music teachers, or students. Results are always the same.
Regards,

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#1928958 - 07/19/12 08:57 AM Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: Ed Foote]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3226
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: Ed Foote
Originally Posted By: Mark R.

Just yesterday, Bill wrote that the sound of ET major keys is the same as A Major in a WT. So, if ET M3s are awful, do you find that A major in EBVT-III sounds "awful" too? And if it does, what about those remote keys? They are even less "smooth and musical" than A Major. By that measure, E Major should actually sound gruesome, B Major horrific, and F# major should be a right-down ghastly emetic.

Again, I ask:

How is it that busy M3s are called "spicy" when they form part of a WT, but even 14 cent M3s are called "awful" when they form part of ET?
(I've never seen anyone avoid A Major in a WT just because it has that "awful ET sound".)


Greetings,
For myself, the horror of ET is the sameness, not the size of the third. That 14 cent third is just another tonal value, something that can be successfully resolved to from somewhere even more expressive. It is a perfectly useful width, (or color,if you like). However, a WT has a range of values, and ET does not, which is the crux of the temperament debate. Some hear the music working with the changes in keys, others do not.

It is not unlike the "Magic Eye" pictures, in which some people are able to see the hidden, synthesized image. Those that cannot will never be convinced by hearing others describe it, they will only really grasp it when they see it. Once the sound of ET is heard in the context of a wider range of intonation, it's real nature becomes more obvious. Side by side pianos, tuned in ET and WT, will usually do this. I've done it, a lot. With rooms full of techs, or music teachers, or students. Results are always the same.
Regards,


I totally agree with ED on this one. It is not that A Major sounds bad, it is that in ET, everything sounds like A Major. Nothing comes to it nor departs from it. For me, to listen to a piano tuned in ET, there is nothing outright disturbing about it but there is a sorely missing lack of contrast and clarity. Everything has a certain indistinctness about it that is not as satisfying as a WT provides. It is worse when the High Treble is too flat and the Bass too sharp.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1929150 - 07/19/12 03:46 PM Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
chuck belknap Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/14/10
Posts: 36
Loc: Oklahoma
Bill: Amen to the last post. You have described my feelings exactly. By the way, what intervals do "sharp bass" tuners use to tune that way. We had a tuner in my area that I would follow that tunes his bass really sharp, and I could never figure what checks he might use.

C belknap

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#1929171 - 07/19/12 04:29 PM Re: EBVT - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Larry Buck Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/04
Posts: 2339
Loc: Lowell MA
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
Originally Posted By: Ed Foote
Originally Posted By: Mark R.

Just yesterday, Bill wrote that the sound of ET major keys is the same as A Major in a WT. So, if ET M3s are awful, do you find that A major in EBVT-III sounds "awful" too? And if it does, what about those remote keys? They are even less "smooth and musical" than A Major. By that measure, E Major should actually sound gruesome, B Major horrific, and F# major should be a right-down ghastly emetic.

Again, I ask:

How is it that busy M3s are called "spicy" when they form part of a WT, but even 14 cent M3s are called "awful" when they form part of ET?
(I've never seen anyone avoid A Major in a WT just because it has that "awful ET sound".)


Greetings,
For myself, the horror of ET is the sameness, not the size of the third. That 14 cent third is just another tonal value, something that can be successfully resolved to from somewhere even more expressive. It is a perfectly useful width, (or color,if you like). However, a WT has a range of values, and ET does not, which is the crux of the temperament debate. Some hear the music working with the changes in keys, others do not.

It is not unlike the "Magic Eye" pictures, in which some people are able to see the hidden, synthesized image. Those that cannot will never be convinced by hearing others describe it, they will only really grasp it when they see it. Once the sound of ET is heard in the context of a wider range of intonation, it's real nature becomes more obvious. Side by side pianos, tuned in ET and WT, will usually do this. I've done it, a lot. With rooms full of techs, or music teachers, or students. Results are always the same.
Regards,


I totally agree with ED on this one. It is not that A Major sounds bad, it is that in ET, everything sounds like A Major. Nothing comes to it nor departs from it. For me, to listen to a piano tuned in ET, there is nothing outright disturbing about it but there is a sorely missing lack of contrast and clarity. Everything has a certain indistinctness about it that is not as satisfying as a WT provides. It is worse when the High Treble is too flat and the Bass too sharp.


+1
_________________________
Has Anyone Seen My Glasses ?

E. J. Buck & Sons
Lowell MA 01852
978 458 8688
www.ejbuckpiano.com
facebook.com/E. J. Buck & Sons Performances

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