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#1919220 - 06/27/12 12:41 AM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: woodog]
Cinnamonbear Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3904
Loc: Rockford, IL
Thank you so much, Forrest!

Originally Posted By: woodog
[...] Bach was like 3 or 4 old ladies sitting in a room with tea, and one would say this thing and another that thing, and the conversation would go like that, some days sunny and other days not, ladies with different personalities, and sometimes the cat shows up, that the musical lines have personality like that.


I totally buy that!

Originally Posted By: woodog
[...] I don't want to anthropomorphise the Lester because like most pianos, it probably hates it. [...]


LOL!!! laugh
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#1919221 - 06/27/12 12:43 AM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: woodog]
Cinnamonbear Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3904
Loc: Rockford, IL
Originally Posted By: woodog
[...] I don't want to anthropomorphise the Lester because like most pianos, it probably hates it. [...]


Still laughing! laugh
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#1919267 - 06/27/12 04:18 AM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Cinnamonbear]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7544
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Cinnamonbear
Originally Posted By: Kamin
[...] Hello, ANdy, why dont you tune unisons that give you some control on tone dynamics, those unisons are so much flowing they sound almost false, make a global slippery feel. You could tighten them and get some tone in the attack, not just in the sustain. With those unisons you tune you are saturating very soon if you play a little more strong, and you have to use the sustain pedal a lot to hide the attack.
Just tune at the moment the tone speaks, not later, not sooner. Let us listen to the way you tune unisons so we can give you some advice if you wish... thanks for the record...


Kamin, strangely enough, I trust you. However, as Bill says, please make the arrangements. I would be happy to meet you at the airport and show you some Midwestern American hospitality! Failing that, the next time I tune (which will be soon!), I will listen to the note on the attack and tune to that. (EDIT: Come to think of it, I believe that is what Bill instructed me to do! laugh )

You must know, though, that this little piano is RIDDLED with strings that beat falsely. Up AND down the scale. So unisons are mostly a compromise on many of the tri- and bi-chords. But actually, I think that is part of what I like so much about the sound of this little spinet. To my ears, the false beating works with the overall sound to the absolute advantage of the music. It is the beating and phasing, coupled with the sound of the overtones as the partials swim together, that gives the piano that mystical, shimmering depth, as well as the mysterious undulations that I like so much. I firmly believe that EBVT III fits this piano to a "T," as they say (what does that mean, anyway?--To a "t"?). Perhaps it is an acquired taste.

Still, I will try your suggestion when next I tune. Stay tuned! (Get it? That's a pun! In English... "Stay tuned!" crazy) ) smile

Thanks for listening, Isaac!

--Andy


Andy & Bill thanks for the invitation, but I cannot leave my family there for now.

On a piano who tend to some harshness you can lower the saturation in the attack by the early coupling, it may leave some false beats, but will straighten most of them.

How to say, if the tone is soon concentrated it will rule the spectra, that will be more linear.
Certainly Inlanding could explain that to you with a better language than me.

Try to have the attack musical. think of the tone you wish to hear and make it ... If the percussion of the key/hammer is yet generating some coupling the noise level lower, and you have more control on tone.
The tone will be long enough even when some energy is concentrated sooner.

I listened without the reverb, indeed you have to work on strong pin setting. The attack is not that bad, for instance the bichords are correct, to me, but you could gain some energy, be it in a more strong pin setting which tend to clean up the tone and strenghten the lower partial.

Even a piano with poor rendering and limited pin tightness can be made more sonorous with the adequate pin setting.






Edited by Kamin (06/27/12 05:27 AM)
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#1919271 - 06/27/12 04:32 AM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Cinnamonbear]
Chris Leslie Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/11
Posts: 625
Loc: Canberra, ACT, Australia
Originally Posted By: Cinnamonbear
Chris--

Here is the un-adorned track:

https://www.box.com/s/36d2333f0e69b9015e56

It is pretty much what it sounds like when I sit at the Lester and play.


Well it seems that you are overdue to get the complete French Suites score. I must admit to them being personal favourites ever since an early age when my teacher introduced them. I always seem to come back to them. Suite #6 will blow your socks off.

The unadorned version still seems to have a resonance with the piano tone. Whatever causes it is a blessing because the tone comes across as very appealing and seems to mimic early pianos to some degree,

I have one concern with the interpretation: A Gigue should be about twice as fast and be in keeping with a lively dance. This one is also moderated a little by being march-like as well, but not really slow at all I think. At least, I am used to it being much faster than you present. Some sparing pedal is OK for me, as you do quite tastefully.

BTW - The F natural query is in the Allemande third bar from the end.
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#1919340 - 06/27/12 08:57 AM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Chris Leslie]
Cinnamonbear Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3904
Loc: Rockford, IL
Originally Posted By: Chris Leslie
Originally Posted By: Cinnamonbear
Chris--

Here is the un-adorned track:

https://www.box.com/s/36d2333f0e69b9015e56

It is pretty much what it sounds like when I sit at the Lester and play.


Well it seems that you are overdue to get the complete French Suites score. I must admit to them being personal favourites ever since an early age when my teacher introduced them. I always seem to come back to them. Suite #6 will blow your socks off.

The unadorned version still seems to have a resonance with the piano tone. Whatever causes it is a blessing because the tone comes across as very appealing and seems to mimic early pianos to some degree,

I have one concern with the interpretation: A Gigue should be about twice as fast and be in keeping with a lively dance. This one is also moderated a little by being march-like as well, but not really slow at all I think. At least, I am used to it being much faster than you present. Some sparing pedal is OK for me, as you do quite tastefully.

BTW - The F natural query is in the Allemande third bar from the end.


Chris, you are oh, so right about the Allemande. It should be an F#, as the previous accidental in the measure indicates, and I would have helped myself by pencilling in a helper sharp, there! I think I got caught up in the downward trend of the musical line, and simply quit reading so closely. (I'd never heard this one before I started working on it, and ignorance being bliss, I just never noticed the error of my way... blush ) Thanks for the tip!

As to the interpretation, I absolutely intended to play the Gigue unconventionally slowly. (I am often chastised in Pianist Corner for not obeying traditions... or respecting the will of the composer by strict adherence to the score... *ahem*.) But here is why I made that interpretive choice: This piece seems to me to be largely about experiencing profound grief, and coming through a period of mourning. I considered taking the Allemande and Courante even more slowly than I did, but the tempos seemed to settle where they did. To my mind's ear (and spirit) the Allemande, Courante, and Sarabande cry, writhe, and ache (respectively) with something of the experience of the meaningful loss of a very close loved one. When, Menuet 1 comes around, it is as if the crying is done, and the tears are wiped, the way you feel after you are all cried out and it's time to move on. Menuet 2 carries on with a forward, positive, "the sun still shines and life goes on" flow, then Menuet 1 recaps with a memory of coming out of the fresh throes of grief, giving a little more distance from the raw pain of loss. I chose to play the Gigue as slowly as I did, because the music seemed to want to express the integration of the mourning with who we are after experiencing the loss of a close loved one. The grief from the loss is always there. And especially so soon after experiencing the loss, you tend to dance a little differently if you choose to dance.

I am presently working on Handel's Keyboard Suite No. 13 in Bb Maj. It is, emotionally and expressively, the exact opposite of Bach's French Suite No. 1. It is simple, light, happy, peppy, and carefree. I am a ways away from being ready to share it, but I will in due time! grin

Thanks for your thoughts, Chris!
--Andy
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#1919357 - 06/27/12 09:29 AM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Grandpianoman]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7437
Loc: Rochester MN
Just a thought, Andy

The lady's tea club is sharing the loss of a dear friend and they are exploring their various feelings of grief. The emotions ebb and flow with all of the memories and emotions.

But then...

The cat walks in and does something silly and the ladies are suddenly ROTFL. Aha, the Gigue.

As Annie says: "Tomorrow, tomorrow, there's always tomorrow. Tomorrow's another Gigue."
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#1919404 - 06/27/12 10:51 AM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Cinnamonbear Offline
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Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3904
Loc: Rockford, IL
grin thumb
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#1921011 - 06/30/12 09:29 AM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
jim ialeggio Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 631
Loc: shirley, MA
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
Originally Posted By: Inlanding


Glen,

I did not see or hear this until today. WOW! You nailed it!

BDB, I hope you hear this and finally understand what I have been saying. It can't sound like this when the piano is tuned in ET with conventional amount of stretch.


Bill,

Messing about last night I found this SOUND(!) which I thought was incredible.

Just to clarify your response, you were referring to the type of stretch being necessary for this type of sound(I agree), but with the reference to ET, were you also implying that ET could not pull this off with a proper stretch? If so, Why?

Jim Ialeggio


Edited by jim ialeggio (06/30/12 09:38 AM)
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#1921014 - 06/30/12 09:35 AM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Grandpianoman]
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21528
Loc: Oakland
Idiotic! If it is supposed to sound like a pipe organ when you play in one particular key in a particular unequal temperament, unlike equal temperament, then what does it sound like when you play it in one of the keys that is farther away from just intonation than equal temperament, a vacuum cleaner?
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#1921229 - 06/30/12 08:15 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Grandpianoman]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2345
Loc: Portland, Oregon
That is quite an incredible sound Glen!

It's amazing to me, the amount of views this posting has had since I started it back on 3/4/10. I never imagined that it would garner this many views....I would venture to say, there must be something to this EBVT III wink .....Onwards and upwards as they say!

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#1921243 - 06/30/12 09:14 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: jim ialeggio]
Chris Leslie Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/11
Posts: 625
Loc: Canberra, ACT, Australia
Originally Posted By: jim ialeggio
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
Originally Posted By: Inlanding


Glen,

I did not see or hear this until today. WOW! You nailed it!

BDB, I hope you hear this and finally understand what I have been saying. It can't sound like this when the piano is tuned in ET with conventional amount of stretch.


Bill,

Messing about last night I found this SOUND(!) which I thought was incredible.

Just to clarify your response, you were referring to the type of stretch being necessary for this type of sound(I agree), but with the reference to ET, were you also implying that ET could not pull this off with a proper stretch? If so, Why?

Jim Ialeggio


Most of what you hear with the pipe organ effect is just the massed harmonics from the lower strings that have been excited by the higher notes, which will naturally sound harmonious.


Edited by Chris Leslie (06/30/12 09:22 PM)
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#1921246 - 06/30/12 09:14 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Grandpianoman]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
Sounds good Glen!
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#1921373 - 07/01/12 09:10 AM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Chris Leslie]
jim ialeggio Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 631
Loc: shirley, MA
Originally Posted By: Chris Leslie

Most of what you hear with the pipe organ effect is just the massed harmonics from the lower strings that have been excited by the higher notes, which will naturally sound harmonious.


Right.

But is this example a real full keyboard tuning, or is it a "one chord" tuning, to see what one idealized chord could sound like. Quite lovely, but is it doable to this degree in a "real" tuning?

I've heard and tuned some very nice stretches, but not one with this level of purity.

Jim Ialeggio
_________________________
Jim Ialeggio
www.grandpianosolutions.com
advanced soundboard and action redesigns
978 425-9026
Shirley Center, MA

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#1921375 - 07/01/12 09:29 AM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: jim ialeggio]
Cinnamonbear Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3904
Loc: Rockford, IL
Originally Posted By: jim ialeggio
Originally Posted By: Chris Leslie

Most of what you hear with the pipe organ effect is just the massed harmonics from the lower strings that have been excited by the higher notes, which will naturally sound harmonious.


Right.

But is this example a real full keyboard tuning, or is it a "one chord" tuning, to see what one idealized chord could sound like. Quite lovely, but is it doable to this degree in a "real" tuning?

I've heard and tuned some very nice stretches, but not one with this level of purity.

Jim Ialeggio


It's a full keyboard tuning, Jim. If you look back through the thread, you'll see other examples posted. And if you do a PW search on "Pipe Organ Effect," you'll find it referenced (contentiously) in other threads, as well. Bernhard Stopper mentioned at some point that he could get the effect with his tuning, too.

--Andy
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I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.

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#1921378 - 07/01/12 09:42 AM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Grandpianoman]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7437
Loc: Rochester MN
I have often read the term "pipe organ effect" and was never quite sure of what it was. Hearing this single chord explained it all.

I had no idea of what to expect and my immediate reaction was that it was an organ and a piano comparison would follow. This reaction was probably within a 10th of a second. My ear told me that it was a final tonic chord based on a 16' principal with a 2' flute or a IV mixture, in a very reverberant setting.

It probably took a full second or two for me to realize that I was hearing a piano. I listened again and again. Then I tried it on my own piano and there it was. I had been hearing it all along but didn't ever apply the term to what I had been hearing.

Thank you Bill. I believe it was you who coined the term.
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Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#1921380 - 07/01/12 09:47 AM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Cinnamonbear Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3904
Loc: Rockford, IL
Here, Marty. Perhaps you would like to take this blind test. It, too, is a blast from the past (so to speak wink ).

Originally Posted By: Cinnamonbear
(Crossposted in Pianist Corner)

Back in April 2010, in this thread, I posted a couple of clips of the "Pipe Organ Effect" as displayed on my Lester spinet, to which GP replied:

Originally Posted By: Grandpianoman
[...] That pipe organ effect is quite something. I remember Bill telling me it was easier to achieve that effect on a piano that had more inharmonicity than on my M&H BB, which has low inharmonicity.


After Bill's last visit, I recorded the pipe organ effect again.

So, who is up for another listening game? smile Can you tell which clip is "The Little Lester That Could", and which clip is from an Actual Cathedral Organ playing a C major chord in Camille Saint-Saens Symphony No. 3? (Of course you can! But won't you play the game anyway?) laugh

Sample 1

Sample 2

Sample 3

Sample 4

--Andy grin


laugh
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#1921382 - 07/01/12 09:58 AM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Cinnamonbear]
jim ialeggio Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 631
Loc: shirley, MA
Originally Posted By: Cinnamonbear

So, who is up for another listening game? smile Can you tell which clip is "The Little Lester That Could", and which clip is from an Actual Cathedral Organ playing a C major chord in Camille Saint-Saens Symphony No. 3? [i](Of course you can! But won't you play the game anyway?)


Hey...no fair, Andy, the attack is edited out!...That's cheating smile...

Without the attack it's not so clear. # 4 has the reedy sound of an organ, but of the other 3 its not so clear..probably #1 is the mighty Lester...But point well made.

Jim Ialeggio
_________________________
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www.grandpianosolutions.com
advanced soundboard and action redesigns
978 425-9026
Shirley Center, MA

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#1921402 - 07/01/12 11:07 AM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Cinnamonbear]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7437
Loc: Rochester MN
In Sample 4, I was expecting to hear the low strings enter. 'Nuff said. I liked the clarity of the registration on that organ. Where was that recorded and with which orchestra? Sounds like a good issue.

Sample 1, Sample 2, and/or Sample 3 would be the Mighty Lester.

BTW - Have you ever erected the Home of the World's Most Famous Lester Spinet signs at all of Rockford exits?
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It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#1921435 - 07/01/12 01:17 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3225
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
In Sample 4, I was expecting to hear the low strings enter. 'Nuff said. I liked the clarity of the registration on that organ. Where was that recorded and with which orchestra? Sounds like a good issue.

Sample 1, Sample 2, and/or Sample 3 would be the Mighty Lester.

BTW - Have you ever erected the Home of the World's Most Famous Lester Spinet signs at all of Rockford exits?


Marty,

That C Major chord from the pipe organ is from an old CD I have of the Saint-Seans "Organ Symphony". I don't have the time to try to look up the specific information about it, however. That piece is one that I remember from my youth, where midway in the final movement, the pipe organ suddenly blasts that loud, C Major chord and then dominates the rest of the piece as a solo instrument.

That is something that had always stuck in my mind. After many years of tuning the EBVT, I noticed the particular effect one day that a broad C Major chord had when played on a piano I had tuned in the EBVT III with the particular amount of stretch which I customarily use. The effect reminded me of that sudden entrance of the pipe organ in the Saint-Seans "Organ" symphony, so it was at that moment that I dubbed the effect on the piano, "The Pipe Organ Effect".

Many attempts have been made to explain why the grand C Major arpeggio produces that effect in the EBVT III ever since. I have really only ever considered it an interesting piece of trivia. However, it never fails to impress my customers as a sign that their piano is truly very well in tune with itself.

If you ask me, the effect comes from a combination of both temperament and octave stretch. The equal beating intervals have a canceling effect, one upon the other that produces a kind of slow, phasing effect that one hears from the same chord played on a pipe organ.

Many, many years ago, I heard a recording of a piano playing a church hymn where all of the "attack" of the hammers hitting the strings was edited out. The person who made the recording suggested that the results sounded more like an organ than a piano. Indeed, they did to me too and that contributed to me calling the effect produced by the EBVT III and octave stretch, the "Pipe Organ Effect".

Once, when demonstrating who to tune the EBVT III at a seminar, I played the results of a G Major chord when I had it tuned and a member of the audience quipped that the chord sounded like that of an organ. G Major in the EBVT III also has Rapidly Beating Intervals (RBI) which cancel themselves. Perhaps for that listener, that sound also reminded him of the sound of an organ, possibly a pipe organ.

I don't feel that some of the condescending remarks which have been written such as "What if she wants the piano to sound like a piano which is what she is paying for" and others about vacuum cleaners, etc., deserve any response.
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Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1921444 - 07/01/12 01:41 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7437
Loc: Rochester MN
Thank you Bill, for providing the historical context for the term.

Searching back through this thread, I found the recordings made in 2010 at Grandpianoman's home in Washington. Listening with headphones, I closed my eyes to enjoy, and really listen to, the Reflets dans L'eau. It literally was three dimensional. Each note in a different place, a location in depth, within a sonic world. It is impossible to convey with words.

I believe it is what tonal color is all about. To experience is to understand.
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Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#1921628 - 07/02/12 03:23 AM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Cinnamonbear Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3904
Loc: Rockford, IL
Well, I dood it. I tuned my piano by my lonesome. That is to say, I used the Sanderson Accutuner with the settings that Bill left me, except that I diverged a little bit in tuning the high treble and the bass--the bass especially, because I was thinking about what Chris said about it being sharp the last time, and Bill's trick of tuning it flat and then knocking it just barely into tune. I did that on all the bi-chords and singles.

I don't want to tell you how much time I spent tuning today. Suffice it to say, I wouldn't have made any money at it. And, it's not nearly as pristine as it is when Bill tunes it (of course). In fact, it's somewhat shabby. But, ya gotta start somewhere, and I wanted to mark this day in history! grin I am not prepared to call this, "My Piano in EBVT III," until Bill hears it and says, "close enough." blush I do think I managed to get some nice resonance in there, even if some of the intervals are still a little off. But my assessment doesn't count! eek

The piece is "The Japanese Sandman" by Raymond B. Egan and Richard A. Whiting (New York: Jerome M. Remick & Co., 1920), a cute little piece in F major with lots of fourths and fifths and a quiet rolling bass. It is recorded in the usual way, and not embellished with any enhancements. Raw, raw, raw, including crappy hiss from my crappy microphones, which I usually take out using DC8 noise reduction software. But I left the hiss in this time for you to get the truest sound as possible given the equipment I have to work with.

"The Japanese Sandman", Egan/Whiting (1920)

I hope you like it! Comments and suggestions about the tuning execution are welcomed. Don't bother commenting on the playing. It's not worth it for this one! wink

--Andy
_________________________
I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.

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#1921713 - 07/02/12 09:25 AM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Withindale Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 1940
Loc: Suffolk, England
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
The equal beating intervals have a canceling effect, one upon the other ...

Bill

Would you be good enough to explain, from a listener's point of view, how equal beating affects the sound as compared with the progressions of ET (if that is the right way to put it?). Why 6 bps? Also how does this canceling effect work, and is this what you meant by noise reduction mentioned in your other posts?

I'm being lazy and haven't searched, so please me point in the right direction if already documented elsewhere.



Edited by Withindale (07/03/12 09:11 AM)
Edit Reason: afterthought
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#1922019 - 07/03/12 12:23 AM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Grandpianoman]
Inlanding Offline
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Registered: 08/05/09
Posts: 1650
Loc: Colorado
Andy!!
My own participation on PW has been a bit spotty, especially of late, but I did get a chance to stop to check out some of the Tuner-Tech, ET/EBVT3 threads to see what's new.

Congratulations on your first full tuning! I'll tell you, that is very good. You can hear some loose unisons there, but that is par for the course, especially for your first time. That ear-hand coordination takes time, and from your description, you took plenty of time to get that piano back to where you like it. For me, spinets seem to be the biggest challenge anyway.

As for the temperament, I am sure it is where you want it to be for EBVT3, but I don't have anything to compare it to. Perhaps when you play a piece that modulates into another key or takes you further out from one flat, it will be more clearly recognizable as such. Regardless, it does sound to me like the temperament has been expanded consistently and correctly to the entire register and it's musical.

I'd recommend you check out a few of the unisons that sound a bit looser to your mind's ear now that you've had a chance to listen to your piano since you tuned it, and see if you can shore them up a bit. Give yourself time for this task, even several days to let your ear hear the subtle differences as you make your way for another pass or two. My guess is that the ETD does not determine the quality of your unisons - your ear will develop that ability, plus your ear-hand coordination will improve over time. Your pin-setting will improve, too. It all starts to come together eventually.

Thank you for putting yourself out there for the world to listen. I am glad to be witness to your first full-on tuning with the ETD. Japanese Sandman is a very cute tune, well played. What can't you play, man? Good stuff, indeed!!!

Glen
_________________________


A Bit of YouTube

PTG Associate Member

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#1922134 - 07/03/12 09:14 AM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Inlanding]
Cinnamonbear Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3904
Loc: Rockford, IL
Hi, Glen! Welcome back to the thread! grin

Thank you so much for your comments and encouragement. I really appreciate it!

Originally Posted By: Inlanding
[...] I'd recommend you check out a few of the unisons that sound a bit looser to your mind's ear now that you've had a chance to listen to your piano since you tuned it, and see if you can shore them up a bit. Give yourself time for this task, even several days to let your ear hear the subtle differences as you make your way for another pass or two. [...]


Yes. I get it, now. When I was playing a different piece last night, B4 and E5 stuck out really fuzzy at me. Time to get out the wedges and open the lid! I'm sure there are others, and some that will fail because of poor pinsetting.

Originally Posted By: Inlanding
[...] My guess is that the ETD does not determine the quality of your unisons - your ear will develop that ability, plus your ear-hand coordination will improve over time. Your pin-setting will improve, too. It all starts to come together eventually. [...]


Yes, again! I did not use the ETD to tune unisons. I put in the temperament strips, then tuned the center string of the tri-chords to the ETD from A3 to E6, and then tuned the outer stings to the center string. From F6 up and from G#3 down, I tuned by octaves by ear, using the temperament strips or wedges to set the center string, then unisons. It took me quite a lot of fiddling around, and playing intervals and big open chords and what not to get things in place after I thought I was done! Ha-ha!!!, but at least now I have taken my first steps on the path, and as you say, you get good at whatever you practice. I practiced playing piano for a long time. Now I will practice tuning! grin GP warned me that getting clean unisons can be addictive, and I think he is right. You know I have studied recordings of your tunings on your Steinway O, which I like listening to a lot and which are very, very fine, indeed. (Interested readers can click on the link in Glen's sig line to hear some really pristine piano!) You and GP have set the bar very high for me! grin

Originally Posted By: Inlanding
[...] Thank you for putting yourself out there for the world to listen. I am glad to be witness to your first full-on tuning with the ETD. Japanese Sandman is a very cute tune, well played. What can't you play, man? [...]


Brahms, Schubert, Schumann, Mendelssohn, Chopin, Liszt, Debussy, Ravel, Franck, Prokovief, Paganini, Schoenberg, Boulez, etc., etc., etc., and anything with a glissando in it. wink I try to wear music that fits me. smile

--Andy


Edited by Cinnamonbear (07/03/12 09:49 AM)
_________________________
I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.

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#1922312 - 07/03/12 05:38 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Grandpianoman]
chuck belknap Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/14/10
Posts: 36
Loc: Oklahoma

I tuned a Yamaha C7 today in EBVT III. The piano had not been tuned for a year and a half, and the voicing was very brittle. I tuned the EBVT III aurally after bringing the piano down in pitch, filed the hammers, and did some Angel Shot Voicing. I recorded some improve on "In the Garden" on my Samsung S2 phone, just to hear the sound away from the piano. I came home and caught up on my Forum reading, and saw Jerry had done a posting on his piano. I thought I would throw this one out to be used or abused.

Chuck




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=803mkkkmfSE

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#1922318 - 07/03/12 05:55 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Grandpianoman]
Johnkie Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/04/11
Posts: 718
Loc: England
Certainly no reason to abuse there Chuck .... nice job wink
_________________________
Concert Tuner & Technician for the past 49 years in the United Kingdom
and Member of the Pianoforte Tuners' Association (London)
www.jphillipspianoservices.freeindex.co.uk : E-mail jophillips06@aol.com

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#1922363 - 07/03/12 08:16 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: chuck belknap]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2345
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Very nice Chuck...thanks for posting! I have come across a lot of C7's in my travels, and I always have liked the sounds they make. Chuck, did you stretch the tuning in the bass, treble, like Bill has done with my grand...my A0 is at -26 cents, and C8 is at +76 cents.

Andy, enjoyed your work as well.

I think this a positive thing you guys have started...why not have more techs, if they feel comfortable with it, posting short examples of their tuning like Jerry and Chuck, and Patrick Wingren on another thread....indeed, why not!?! smile


Edited by Grandpianoman (07/03/12 08:24 PM)

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#1922391 - 07/03/12 11:26 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Grandpianoman]
chuck belknap Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/14/10
Posts: 36
Loc: Oklahoma
Well, thank you for the compliment. That was a very simple, non-technical piece, but as I said, I originally just recorded it to see what the piano had to say from 10 feet away. I wanted to see if I had improved the voicing enough in the middle register. I LOVE Yamaha pianos, and have had one for 35 years, but they can sure get bright. My dream piano has always been a Schimmel-their unisons can be unreal clean. By working octaves 3,4,5 on a Yamaha and really softening the hammers, they can resemble the Schimmel's beautiful tone.

I did not check my tuning with the ETD, but I'm sure that the bass was close to 25 cents flat, and the treble at least 40-50 cents sharp. The first octave and a half are always close to turning into an audible beat, and the treble always has a few very high partials talking from octave 6-7.

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#1922612 - 07/04/12 01:40 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: chuck belknap]
Cinnamonbear Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3904
Loc: Rockford, IL
Chuck, that sounded great! Both the piano and the playing. Loved the hymn, loved the pace, loved the feeling. Thank you for posting that!

--Andy
_________________________
I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.

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#1922811 - 07/05/12 12:09 AM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Cinnamonbear]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3225
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: Cinnamonbear
Well, I dood it. I tuned my piano by my lonesome. That is to say, I used the Sanderson Accutuner...[snip]
--Andy


Andy,

It actually sounds pretty good! There is really, I believe only a marginal amount that those unisons could be improved. That piano does have its limitations. I could make them sound better, yes but not up to the standards that most technicians on here would expect. I know you can hear when a unison is pure but I surely understand the difficulty of making one be as pure as can be.

I read the private mail comment about turning off the ETD to tune unisons. The reason I did that is not so profound as it may seem. The fact is that it won't really help you! The ETD is designed to read one single pitch at a time. If it is presented with two pitches that are relatively close to each other, it cannot "decide" which pitch it is hearing. The ETD won't give you any more information than your ears do when trying to tune unisons. If you hear an indistinct sound, the ETD will display an indistinct pattern. It won't tell you whether the string you are trying to tune is slightly sharp or flat. It will only tell you that the unison is not in tune and you already can hear that clearly!

Having said that, I do often use the ETD when tuning unisons for the finest tuning I can possibly do but perhaps not for reasons you may expect. I don't refer to the ETD to tell me if the unison is as pure sounding as can be, no. If I have an aurally verified program for the piano as I do in the case of your Lester, I will want to know in a concert tuning situation if the whole unison with all three strings sounding, as purely as can be, still hangs on to the pitch I have prescribed for that note.

When tuning unisons, it is very easy to "pound a note flat" as many technicians will tell you will often and quite easily occur. If I have prescribed a certain pitch for a note, I want the whole unison to reflect it the best as I can. This is what makes concert piano tuning take longer than an ordinary tuning if anything does. I often have to "fight" with many notes in the upper 5th and 6th octaves to make then really hold on to the pitch that I have actually prescribed.

When I do take the time, however, that is when my tunings really "shine" and that is what makes concert artists choose to thank me publicly for what I have done for them.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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