Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Teachers Forum Can passion be "taught?"

OK, well, if you insist. Passion cannot be taught. It is either there or it isn't.

(Unlike discipline, which can be instilled by parents).

There is nothing wrong with wishing your child had passion for piano. The question is how do you deal with the disappointment when you see she does not have that passion.

BTW, I did not intend to sound judgmental. I just like playing around with words and had fun looking up the origin of the word passion. I think you are taking an interest in your child's education and want the best for her. Nothing wrong with that.

"The passion for piano" and "the passion for setting oneself apart/being better than average" are different, I guess most people who answered were answering to the former.

I think piano sounds relegated to the same level as homework for your daughter. It's hard to be passionate about homework. I do think passion can be encouraged. But I don't think it can be forced.

My daughter has a sport that parents invest a lot of money and time into. Sometimes the child no longer wants to suffer for the sport (they suffer; it's painful, requires dedication, skipping the things other girls do after school and weekends and 5am wake up calls). What happens when parents push because passion is lost are mental blocks, loss of confidence and injuries.

Make piano fun again and she will probably rediscover why she wanted to play in the first place. Help her determine HER goals with piano without making them YOUR goals. The Happy Farmer makes you proud, but maybe it means very little to your daughter.

I am finding being a more relaxed parent (also an Asian household) is more freeing. For my older child I was much more of a pressure parent and it led to a lot of issues where his identity was tied to success. I wish I had learned to step back without heartache lessons.

Oddly, by stepping back with my daughter, she has also excelled - but she doesn't identify herself as being a success or failure based on grades or piano level or her sport level. There is joy in the process - practice, effort, energy.

Personally, I don't think passion can be taught. At all.

I do, however, like to think that it can be inspired. In fact, I would say that much of what I try do accomplish as a teacher is to light that spark in my students, and to fan the flames on a constant basis..

Passion can also be killed.

Many parents want their kids to be above average. Promoting competition in sports gets general approval.

I think American parents have no problem with doing everything they can to help their kid excel at sports. But somehow when it comes to competing intellectually, they back off and say it's crude to try to be better than your peers. For example, those who want their kids to get into math magnet schools, take action to promote their kids math skills, but they don't freely admit it.

We accept parents orchestrating promotion of physicality, but see it as inappropriate intervening to promote intellect and artistry.

Double standard.

Other than that, there are just differences in what parents value. If a person's choices are working for them, then so be it. If the parent choices are causing family conflict, then maybe it's time to re-evaluate priorities/values.

Competition in academics can be as deadly to real learning as it is in music. It can also kill passion for the subject. As I wrote before, passion can be killed if it was there originally. A number of things can do that.

What I was implying in my previous post were: 1) one can do well in many areas, but it’s not necessary to do well in EVERY area. Life is short, putting time and effort in a certain area means putting less time and effort in other areas. The point is to find the area that one wants to excel in (where the passion is), then work hard. 2) Piano study will be most fruitful if the passion is for piano and music, not simply using piano as a means to distinguish oneself. Many people have a burning desire to distinguish themselves, but when it comes to actual work, few can actually endure the hard work that is required for years and years. It’s because the passion is not for the particular type of work, but only for the status that the work will lead them to.

As to the contrast between “American” and “Asian” parenting stereotypes… As an Asian parent myself with kids who have great passion for learning (including piano) and are learning the work ethics to develop their passion and talent, I have to say that the stereotypes are really just stereotypes. The reality and the types of parenting both in America and in Asia are much, much more complex. I know, for example, many American parents who are no less fierce than stereotypical Asian parents when it comes to academics and arts. The stereotypes arise from specific economic, cultural and social circumstances, have their own strengths and shortcomings, and if carried out to the extreme, are detrimental to the children.

I agree with what you say childofparadise.

I'm just commenting on an attitude that I think is prevalent. All the talk of "There is no 'I' in the word team" etc. It's seems taboo to say the word "I". In sports the individual can hide behind working hard for the team. But the artist/intellectual is seen as flying solo and therefore as being selfish.

That's my impression of attitudes here in the U.S. I'd say many folks view great parental attention to promoting intellect and artistry in their kid as being un-Christian. No approval for those who try to set themselves apart/excel at anything that is not physical. Again with sports all is OK. And with attempts to improve physical appearance (all the boob jobs and other enhancements) are just fine.

Of course I am exaggerating a bit for fun.

I thought it was only in Lake Woebegone that all of the children are above average.

Seriously, while I don't think passion can be taught, I do think it can be *caught* -- or inspired, as noted above. How to manage that is way beyond my knowledge, though.

But while I don't believe passion can be taught, I do agree with others that it can be quashed, and that has to be the greatest challenge for any parent or teacher -- how to provide a situation where passion has the best chance of developing without pushing so hard as to kill it.

This is also the hallmark (one of them) of Asian culture. Many Asian people would think that the American society is the home of individualism.

And quite easily.

A popular example:

Student loves music.
Student has a hard time reading music, but enjoys figuring things out by ear.
Teacher wants student to learn to read music.
Teacher spends 90% of the lesson time/energy on reading.
Student spends 90% of the lesson time frustrated.
Passion dies.

I don't think so.

I don't have any evidence for this. Only anecdotal evidence -- specifically about my son.

He played both piano and violin while growing up. We took him to symphony concerts, piano recitals, and the opera. He heard me playing the piano and listening to music in the home. But once he went off to college he stopped playing his instruments and rarely listens to music. I don't think it is that important to him whereas I can't live without it.

Chacun son goût.

This also depends on how the teacher tries to transmit those skills. The above example can actually be done effectively and intelligently, if the teacher is able to balance things well. Such teachers are rare.

Another example is:
Student loves music. Teacher let's student 'advance' quickly without giving skills, and also criticizes student's "mistakes". Student's efforts yield few results because of the missing skills, making student feel like a failure.

I'll offer my own experience since that was the age I quit piano and I still have vivid memory like it was only yesterday.

I started learning piano since I was 5 or 6 and stopped around 3rd grade. My piano teacher was my music teacher at school so we had lessons in school pretty often. I remeber that day I was having my lesson and one of my classmate poked her head in and asked me "What you doing here? We are all playing outside." Right then I started to doubt about learning piano. Couple weeks later I told my mom that I want to stopped piano lesson and that was it.

If you ask me if I regret quitting it, honestly I would say yes. But if I can go back in time, I would still make the same decision. Because at that time, learning piano did set me "apart" from my friends and I didn't want that. However I am grateful that I had a good foundation so I am able to appreciate music and pick it up again after all these years.

And it goes the same for my son. He told me that he doesn't like to talk about learning piano in his class because none of his classmates is interested. But he also told me that he enjoys chatting with another boy on the bus who also plays piano. So maybe you will be able to fuel your daughter's passion again if you can find her some companions.

Since you mentioned the Tiger Mom book, I would like to offer my own view. I don't think she meant the book to be a manual of bringing up children but rather a look back of her own parenting style. I am Aisian myself and was brought up the similar way. I suggest you take the book with a grain of salt. Not every child could be raised the same way even Chua adimitted in her book. You can read more about it on her own web site: http://amychua.com/

I read "Tiger Mom" cover-to-cover. I realize this wasn't a guideline but rather a memoir. Kudos to her, as she is an extremely devoted mother juggling a career as a professor at Yale, and forcing both her kids to practice even while on vacation. I was amazed at how a non-musician like her knew so much about music theory and how she herself would tell both of her daughters how to interpret music or how to play a phrase or a measure.

Let me tell you guys that I ain't no "Tiger-Dad" by any means, but I do expect my kids to "give it their all" when they practice. I didn't mention that my younger daughter is also a piano student, but more on the average side in terms of ability. But even though she has less natural ability than the 9-year-old, she works her tail off at her level 1 pieces, which she's been on for over a year now. Further, I let me daughters be normal also - they get to play computer games, watch movies, and have sleep-overs and playdates. I gave the 9 Y.O. the "speech" about setting herself apart because even she herself realizes that she's different than her classmates. She even told me that most of her classmates who are in piano lessons are still playing, what she calls, the "baby books." I also told her that if she considers herself a "pianist", then she better start practicing like one. This past week, she has stepped up her game, I'm happy to say, and has been practicing on her own...

Those of you who recommended a change of teachers are also probably correct. Maybe she needs a trained teacher who will bring out the best in her and make her want to try harder, and also teach her the depth to be found in piano pieces. I don't think the "passion" can come from her alone, so I do think it's possible that it can be taught! Yes, I change my stance on this, and I guess I was thinking too much about myself when I made the statement that passion can't be taught.. I'll admit, I've lost a little of my own passion because I've achieved what I wanted to with piano, and am sort of in a been-there-done-that mode. Believe me, I have no aspirations to play a Chopin etude, and am content with my current level. Alas, it is I who can't learn passion, but my daughter has her whole life ahead of her.

PS- For those that know me, I hang out mostly in the ABF, and am an adult "re-starter". I regretted quitting at age 12, and was happy to relearn piano on my own 4 years ago, and to play at my current level. Like jc111, I had an excellent childhood foundation to work from. However, I'm still not excellent at it, and if I hadn't quit, maybe I would've been excellent, so like any parent, I want my daughter to be excellent at something....again, to be better than average and to "set herself apart."

thanks for listening...

Been there, done that.

These students are also the ones who want to play Fur Elise by lesson 10 and refuse to practice more than 5 minutes per week.

They will also progress at a snail's pace and be frustrated by the fact that everyone else is flying way past them in terms of keyboard skills and level of repertoire. They'll be playing level 1 music after 5 years of painful lessons, while beginners who start with the same teacher will have played level 4 music by the end of year one.

IMO, of course.