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#1920090 - 06/28/12 12:29 PM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: UnrightTooner]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4908
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Ed:

I quite agree that those that prefer UTs, prefer pianos that sound like they are tuned differently in different keys. In other words: out-of-tune.

You posted:

"I find it amazing that people can only hear a third as "in-tune" if it is a particular distance from Just, and only that distance!"

Where did you get that idea in this Topic, or is this a straw man you are creating to knock down? You have admitted to "hanging paper" before, you know!

It seems there is a propensity for that sort of thing among UTers. It makes me suspect their motives.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1920097 - 06/28/12 12:48 PM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: UnrightTooner]
Ed Foote Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 1101
Loc: Tennessee
I posted:

"I find it amazing that people can only hear a third as "in-tune" if it is a particular distance from Just, and only that distance!"

>>>Where did you get that idea in this Topic, or is this a straw man you are creating to knock down? It seems there is a propensity for that sort of thing among UTers. It makes me suspect their motives.<<

Hmm, I got the idea from you. You posted (OP) that if a piano wasn't in ET, it didn't sound in tune. (Actually, if one preferred anything but ET, they preferred "out of tune". And since there is only one size third in ET, (measured in distance from Just), logic tells me that you only hear one size of third as "in tune"?

Let's not give straw men a bad name; go back and read your original post!

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#1920100 - 06/28/12 12:52 PM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: UnrightTooner]
Tribbs Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/13/12
Posts: 43
Loc: Madtown
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
Ed:

I quite agree that those that prefer UTs, prefer pianos that sound like they are tuned differently in different keys. In other words: out-of-tune.



You keep repeating the mantra that implies only ET is "in- tune". In other words total non-sense.
_________________________
The People's Cube


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#1920108 - 06/28/12 01:22 PM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: Ed Foote]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4908
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: Ed Foote
I posted:

"I find it amazing that people can only hear a third as "in-tune" if it is a particular distance from Just, and only that distance!"

>>>Where did you get that idea in this Topic, or is this a straw man you are creating to knock down? It seems there is a propensity for that sort of thing among UTers. It makes me suspect their motives.<<

Hmm, I got the idea from you. You posted (OP) that if a piano wasn't in ET, it didn't sound in tune. (Actually, if one preferred anything but ET, they preferred "out of tune". And since there is only one size third in ET, (measured in distance from Just), logic tells me that you only hear one size of third as "in tune"?

Let's not give straw men a bad name; go back and read your original post!


By the same token you could infer that I only hear one size of aug 4ths or diminished 27ths as "in tune." No, straw men should not be given a bad name, only those that use them!
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1920110 - 06/28/12 01:24 PM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: Tribbs]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4908
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: Tribbs
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
Ed:

I quite agree that those that prefer UTs, prefer pianos that sound like they are tuned differently in different keys. In other words: out-of-tune.



You keep repeating the mantra that implies only ET is "in- tune". In other words total non-sense.


Are you saying that both ET and UTs can be in-tune?
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1920119 - 06/28/12 01:38 PM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: Ed Foote]
Tribbs Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/13/12
Posts: 43
Loc: Madtown
Originally Posted By: Ed Foote
[...] I find it amazing that people can tolerate an unrelenting buzz of tempering that accompanies the sound of ET. (It has its own sound, distinguishable from other temperaments, to those that have listened long enough to recognize it).


I must take exception to this, Ed. It didn't take me long at all. In fact it took me all but 10 minuites after I had the recordings in hand to compare as well as other sources. Indeed, I now can easilly distinguish ET by the incessant "buzz". I have always noticed this "buzz". But like a diamond, the defects are ignored until closer inspection clearly reveals its inherent faults.

The notion that there is no other proper tuning of a piano than ET is preposterous. And to demand that no one even utter another temperament is bordering on insanity. No! It borders on dangerous.

It amazes me that for an alleged obscure temperance, that only an alleged few PT know about (what was it? 0.1%?), and even fewer pianists, that it can cause such consternation. I find the protestations against anything other than ET to be the behaviour akin to enraged followers of a strange religious sect.

Perhaps this phenomenon reflects modern society in general where a certain type of individual decides to take it upon themself to quash thoughts outside the mainstream psyche. As if any thought not congruent with theirs is considered a threat. Indeed it is. It is a threat to their conceit! We have witnessed this type of behavior before in history with disastrous results - Fate is knocking.
_________________________
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#1920124 - 06/28/12 01:42 PM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: UnrightTooner]
beethoven986 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 3320
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
Originally Posted By: Tribbs
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
Ed:

I quite agree that those that prefer UTs, prefer pianos that sound like they are tuned differently in different keys. In other words: out-of-tune.



You keep repeating the mantra that implies only ET is "in- tune". In other words total non-sense.


Are you saying that both ET and UTs can be in-tune?


Neither can be "in-tune" if your standard is just intonation (just ask any string player).
_________________________
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#1920135 - 06/28/12 01:54 PM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: UnrightTooner]
Johnkie Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/04/11
Posts: 688
Loc: England
This arguement is getting quite ridiculous - and quite child like - You either like your particular tuner's way of doing things or not. In forty odd years I've never been asked to tune to anything other than ET .... except for the odd harpsichord recital. Why all the bad feelings here? Early keyboard tuning is considerably different to that normally used on a modern concert grand .... and I have tuned 000s ...all of which were tuned in ET and have never given cause for complaint. If anyone requires something different to ET, then by all means find someone prepared to oblige, but please don't let us get caught up in this stupid "mine's better than yours" mentality.

Let's all prosper the art ...... and just move on wink
_________________________
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#1920140 - 06/28/12 02:00 PM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: UnrightTooner]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4908
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Tribbs:

From your last post (I don't see a need to always use the quote facility) I think you may be able to understand how ETers feel when the UTers, especially the WTers, make judgments about WT vs ET. How it "ruins" music, ect.

I am not making a judgment. I am pointing out what in-tune really means: one element (unison, interval, chord, key, progression, ect.) sounding like it is tuned the same as another element. By definition of what UTs are, one or more of these elements do not sound like that are tuned the same. So then they are out-of-tune with each other. And it is OK that they are out-of-tune. That is the whole idea!

But it does get down to discernment, too. What may sound like ET, to one person, may not to another. If all of these elements sound the same as the others, to that person, it therefore sounds in-tune. And of course if they sound different, then they are out-of-tune.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1920143 - 06/28/12 02:03 PM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: Mark R.]
beethoven986 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 3320
Originally Posted By: Mark R.

While UT, I venture, is a rather more crude compromise.


First, I don't think we should be using the term "unequal temperament" when we are talking about "well temperament"; yes, WT is a UT, but so is Pythagorean and meantone tuning, so for clarity's sake....

Some WTs are perhaps better conceived than others, but what is considered better is open to interpretation. Typically, the way WT works is that C major is the most consonant, followed by F and G, and so on in a predictable fashion. There is nothing haphazard about it (at least the "good" ones).

Originally Posted By: Mark R.
At least ET tries to distribute this irreconcilability as homogeneously as possible. To me, there is a sense of coherence (if not perfection) in that, which an UT can never achieve.


This philosophy of yours indicates a deep misunderstanding of the importance of temperament throughout the course of music history. You have to understand the aesthetics of the era because all temperaments were designed based on the goals of the people who developed them, and these goals were markedly different as music evolved. Has it occurred to you that, perhaps, homogeneity was unimportant, or even considered undesirable? Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, Chopin, and others used key color of WT to their advantage when composing (and this is why many of them had preferences for individual keys).

It's perfectly acceptable to tune pianos in ET; mine is tuned in ET, but don't make the mistake of diminishing WT, because that is a very.... misguided opinion.


Originally Posted By: Mark R.
So it boggles my mind how some UT proponents can write that "in ET, everything is out of tune", and at the same time, they praise an UT for the "spice and color" of its remote keys - while these are more "out of tune" than ET!

If these proponents use 13.7 cents as a yardstick for an "out of tune" M3, then by their own standards, half the keys of well temperaments are not spicy, they are badly out of tune.

I agree with Jeff, lots of double speak here...


Again. You're missing the point. Jeff claimed that "if you like a piano tuned in something other than ET, you prefer a piano that is out of tune." Ron countered that "In ET, everything is out of tune." The intent was to point out the flaw in Jeff's original argument, not some claim that WT is any more "in tune" than ET.
_________________________
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#1920145 - 06/28/12 02:03 PM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: beethoven986]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4908
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: beethoven986
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
Originally Posted By: Tribbs
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
Ed:

I quite agree that those that prefer UTs, prefer pianos that sound like they are tuned differently in different keys. In other words: out-of-tune.



You keep repeating the mantra that implies only ET is "in- tune". In other words total non-sense.


Are you saying that both ET and UTs can be in-tune?


Neither can be "in-tune" if your standard is just intonation (just ask any string player).


Then neither an augmented chord nor a diminished seventh can be in-tune. I have always wondered what they do, or think they do. And then there is the problem of playing bitonal pieces in just temperment.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1920150 - 06/28/12 02:19 PM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: UnrightTooner]
beethoven986 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 3320
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
Originally Posted By: beethoven986
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
Originally Posted By: Tribbs
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
Ed:

I quite agree that those that prefer UTs, prefer pianos that sound like they are tuned differently in different keys. In other words: out-of-tune.



You keep repeating the mantra that implies only ET is "in- tune". In other words total non-sense.


Are you saying that both ET and UTs can be in-tune?


Neither can be "in-tune" if your standard is just intonation (just ask any string player).


Then neither an augmented chord nor a diminished seventh can be in-tune. I have always wondered what they do, or think they do. And then there is the problem of playing bitonal pieces in just temperment.


I'd tell you, but I slept through all my theory classes. Oops. Lol.
_________________________
B.Mus. Piano Performance 2009
M.Mus. Piano Performance & Literature 2011
PTG Associate Member
Certified Dampp-Chaser installer

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#1920153 - 06/28/12 02:27 PM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: beethoven986]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4908
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: beethoven986
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
Originally Posted By: beethoven986
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
Originally Posted By: Tribbs
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
Ed:

I quite agree that those that prefer UTs, prefer pianos that sound like they are tuned differently in different keys. In other words: out-of-tune.



You keep repeating the mantra that implies only ET is "in- tune". In other words total non-sense.


Are you saying that both ET and UTs can be in-tune?


Neither can be "in-tune" if your standard is just intonation (just ask any string player).


Then neither an augmented chord nor a diminished seventh can be in-tune. I have always wondered what they do, or think they do. And then there is the problem of playing bitonal pieces in just temperment.


I'd tell you, but I slept through all my theory classes. Oops. Lol.


But wait a second... If the string players strive for just intonation (like us brass players do...) then the great masterpieces that were supposedly written for certain keys, because of WT, are not being played in the intonation that they were mean to be? Or is it that this whole WT thing is a will-o-the-wisp?

But really I am trying to point out what UT trully means on a piano.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1920175 - 06/28/12 03:19 PM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: UnrightTooner]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1653
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
In ET all intervals are equally out of tune. In WT some intervals are less out of tune and some are more out of tune.
Pick what you think sounds best.

Kees

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#1920181 - 06/28/12 03:33 PM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: UnrightTooner]
Ryan Hassell Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/07/09
Posts: 428
Loc: Farmington, MO
I would liken the difference between ET and the EBVT to bread. Yes, I can go to the store and buy a loaf of bread made in a factory somewhere, perfectly sliced and neatly packaged. Every slice looking just like the last one and be perfectly happy with it. On the other hand I can bake a loaf at home. It's going to taste different, the slices my not be as equal, but to me, homemade bread usually tastes better than store bought. I like things that have a hand-crafted organic feel to them. That is what I hear in the EBVT. ET is fine, but to my ears, it's just a little too sterile and bland...a little too equal, if you will. I don't hear any difference between keys. If you have not read the book "How Equal Temperament Ruined Harmony (and Why You Should Care)" you really need to. It is by Ross W. Duffin. I think I bought my copy on Amazon. Bill may disagree with this, but in my reading, as I understand it, the EVBT is similar to Bach's Well Tempered Clavier tunings. All keys playable, but each slightly shaded to give the keys distinct characteristics.


Edited by Ryan Hassell (06/28/12 03:34 PM)
_________________________
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Hassell's Piano Tuning
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#1920214 - 06/28/12 04:48 PM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: Emmery]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: Emmery
Loren, the nice thing about ET is that we dont need to use the criteria "..so for that interval...". I prefer a visual anology to the ET vs UT arguement. Dissonance is like garbage strewn on a huge otherwise pristine beach. ET has a same amount of garbage as UT, but spread out over the whole beach equally spaced far enough apart that you only see a small fragment from any one spot you stand. UT has the same amount of garbage but clumped in less piles, that are larger and more visable from anywhgere you stand.

The following photo shows a beach that has small piles of garbage all over it. Because of the perspective, the majority of it is unoticed except for the peice in the foreground. UT that has an appropriate piece of music selected for it that favours the better intervals is like this picture with the upper portion cropped out for viewing. An UT that has music played in a less favourable key will require the viewer to look at the cropped out lower portion of the photo. Except for the sand, the rest of the beach is lost in the garbage.

ET would be the equivalant of photographing this beach from a position where no highly visable garbage is close enough or large enough to be really noticed. UT followers will always have to either crop the photo (select music in appropriate keys) or find some mystical way to remove the lower portion from their sight.



Thank you! ET is "spreading the garbage around" so none of it is concentrated in one spot. This spreads the smell around so that no one key smells worse than the other.

You actually helped me out here, Emmery. Thanks!
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#1920237 - 06/28/12 06:15 PM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: UnrightTooner]
Larry Buck Offline
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Registered: 10/27/04
Posts: 2336
Loc: Lowell MA
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
If you prefer anything other than ET, you prefer a piano that sounds out-of-tune.


I disagree.

In the proper context, historic tuning makes such an important difference.

I recommend getting to a Fredrick Piano Collection performance.

Just my opinion.
_________________________
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#1920253 - 06/28/12 07:19 PM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: UnrightTooner]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
To presume that all music prior to the XXth century was played out of tune is the epitome of arrogance. And silliness!
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#1920257 - 06/28/12 07:31 PM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: Loren D]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21292
Loc: Oakland
Originally Posted By: Loren D
To presume that all music prior to the XXth century was played out of tune is the epitome of arrogance. And silliness!


It depends on your standards. By some standards, all music played in the XXth century and beyond is played out of tune, too. Even Harry Partch's.
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Semipro Tech

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#1920296 - 06/28/12 09:50 PM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: DoelKees]
Sparky McBiff Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/10
Posts: 1112
Loc: Toronto, Ontario
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
In ET all intervals are equally out of tune. In WT some intervals are less out of tune and some are more out of tune.
Pick what you think sounds best.

Kees


This STUPID thread should have been over right after this post because Kees just nails it. thumb
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#1920314 - 06/28/12 10:46 PM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: UnrightTooner]
RonTuner Offline
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Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1626
Loc: Chicagoland
Does anyone still recall the first time you tuned without realizing the ceiling fan was on? There was an unsettling beating going on, that turning the pins didn't quite change, always the same...

That's what an ET tuned piano does for me - I feel it more from the bench than from the seats; it seems easier to focus on the music rather than the tuning from the audience.

Ron Koval
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#1920328 - 06/28/12 11:34 PM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: Tribbs]
Maximillyan Online   embarrased
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1494
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Tribbs
[quote=Ed Foote] [...] I find the protestations against anything other than ET to be the behaviour akin to enraged followers of a strange religious sect.

i really liked your expression
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#1920329 - 06/28/12 11:34 PM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: Sparky McBiff]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2356
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Originally Posted By: Sparky McBiff
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
In ET all intervals are equally out of tune. In WT some intervals are less out of tune and some are more out of tune.
Pick what you think sounds best.

Kees


This STUPID thread should have been over right after this post because Kees just nails it. thumb


I would have to agree with Mr Kees quote although its general and doesn't address the severity of that out of tuneness.
Perhaps every tuner should really be called "sort of piano tuner".
_________________________
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#1920334 - 06/28/12 11:49 PM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: UnrightTooner]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3186
Loc: Madison, WI USA
I have been really busy lately and just returned from the final rehearsal for a concert that will be held Sunday night that features, in part, Baroque period instruments and Baroque music. Thankfully, there will be no modern piano in the entire concert because the Model D Steinway that the music director of that church insists upon having tuned by his favorite tuner is tuned in none other than Reverse Well! The piano was only used to provide starting pitches for rehearsal.

The pipe organ that will actually be used is at another pitch and another temperament but I could not tell exactly what temperament it was just by listening. All I know is that it is a Well Temperament. At one point in the rehearsal, when trying to refine certain elements, the music director made the statement, "What is coming from the piano and the organ are not quite the same".

What a delusional existence it would have to be to believe that ET always was, is now and forever shall be the foundation of all music! I, for one do not believe that ET ever played a part in any music of the past. I hear pitch correction technology being used in pop song recordings of today to make better what vocalists could not achieve on their own, yes. I hear electronic keyboards tuned in theoretical ET substituting for real pianos in many instances.

I also know of frozen, pre-packaged, processed "foods" being purchased by people using food stamps issued by the government. Poor people in this country are obese because of it. Much of pop music is also "obese" with pre-packaged, electronically enhanced remedies aided by the delusion of ET as a model for what is correct.

I could say a lot about what I think the history of ET actually is but I don't want to inflame things any more about that than I already have. Suffice it to say that I don't believe it was ever really practiced on a large scale until about 1990 when many technicians had become used to using ETD's to help them actually tune it. There are still many aural tuners out there in whom many people have a lot of confidence and who still tune in Reverse Well and firmly believe it to be ET and so do the people who hire them.

The author of this thread recently proclaimed that he sings in ET. That is absurd and preposterous! Nobody now or ever has sung in ET and nobody who plays any stringed or wind instrument either modern or antique ever did either.

If there ever could be any music that at all times had nothing but truly "in tune" intervals, it would surely be boring and lifeless. The temperament of a piano, whether a truly and properly executed ET or not is what provides the resonance that a piano has.

The oscillation in pitch that strings, winds and voices naturally produce when practicing good musicianship and intonation is what contributes beauty to music. I am no Baroque music expert or enthusiast, to be sure but I can tell that often, what is desired is not ET at all but Just Intonation. The desire for that purity of sound only occurs fleetingly. Nevertheless, that occasional pure sound is what contributes to musical beauty as does all of the rest of the impurity.

The resonance of a piano tuned in ET was what the late Virgil Smith taught in piano tuning for decades. He surely did believe in ET and tuned entirely by ear but he was often disappointed at the results of other aural tuners and particularly the results of ETD tunings. Nobody seemed to put the right amount of stretch in the octaves that would produce the kind of resonance that he did as his usual practice.

When I try to describe what to do to get that same kind of stretch, I get vitriolic condemnations of it and endless rantings of how it would not work, could not work and should not be tried. If I add to it that a carefully constructed Well Temperament could enhance that resonance even further, I get complete condemnation and remarks about how all the real technicians that used to participate on here have left in disgust by it.

Frankly, I don't care who comes and goes and never have either on here or any other forum. I prefer to talk about what has worked for me and the success I have made of it. Maybe I have polarized thought about temperament just as the Governor of the state of Wisconsin has done about certain political issues.

That seems to be a tradition here. It is either one way or the other. You either believe in what you are doing and stick with it, practice it, continue to serve it up or you do the best you can with whatever you may know. What I know is that ET, as a model and a goal is not worthy of pursuit. The more it is perfected, the less interesting a piano becomes.

I only need to go back to a match up between Virgil Smith and me in 1998 when, in an audience of exclusively piano technicians, the original EBVT prevailed over Virgil's best effort at ET, 4:1. In a re-match the next year in Chicago, there were virtually the same results with Virgil conceding, "I like that temperament."

It does not matter to me how many people liked what I did at either of those demonstrations, whether they understood it or not, whether any of them took it up or not. It also does not matter to me any of the negative comments on here may be. None of them have ever changed what I do nor will they ever. I'll just keep on doing what I do regardless. I will also keep noting virtually on a daily basis that what has been claimed to be ET, believed to be ET, ranted and raved about to be the only way to tune a piano, is actually a backwards version of what I do.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1920337 - 06/28/12 11:55 PM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: Emmery]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1653
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: Emmery
Originally Posted By: Sparky McBiff
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
In ET all intervals are equally out of tune. In WT some intervals are less out of tune and some are more out of tune.
Pick what you think sounds best.

Kees


This STUPID thread should have been over right after this post because Kees just nails it. thumb


I would have to agree with Mr Kees quote although its general and doesn't address the severity of that out of tuneness.
Perhaps every tuner should really be called "sort of piano tuner".

The severity depends on the kind of UT. I liked your garbage analogy. Or UT tuning is like raking leaves into heaps and ET tuning is like spreading manure evenly.

Kees

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#1920339 - 06/28/12 11:58 PM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: DoelKees]
Maximillyan Online   embarrased
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1494
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Pick what you think sounds best.
Kees

Let the customer is not disappointed in your choice of this when he (she) will be playing music. The most expensive thing on Earth is the wrong choice. Because we should to pay very expensive for it
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#1920345 - 06/29/12 12:52 AM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2356
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
I have been really busy lately and just returned from the final rehearsal for a concert that will be held Sunday night that features, in part, Baroque period instruments and Baroque music. Thankfully, there will be no modern piano in the entire concert because the Model D Steinway that the music director of that church insists upon having tuned by his favorite tuner is tuned in none other than Reverse Well! The piano was only used to provide starting pitches for rehearsal.

The pipe organ that will actually be used is at another pitch and another temperament but I could not tell exactly what temperament it was just by listening. All I know is that it is a Well Temperament. At one point in the rehearsal, when trying to refine certain elements, the music director made the statement, "What is coming from the piano and the organ are not quite the same".

What a delusional existence it would have to be to believe that ET always was, is now and forever shall be the foundation of all music! I, for one do not believe that ET ever played a part in any music of the past. I hear pitch correction technology being used in pop song recordings of today to make better what vocalists could not achieve on their own, yes. I hear electronic keyboards tuned in theoretical ET substituting for real pianos in many instances.

I also know of frozen, pre-packaged, processed "foods" being purchased by people using food stamps issued by the government. Poor people in this country are obese because of it. Much of pop music is also "obese" with pre-packaged, electronically enhanced remedies aided by the delusion of ET as a model for what is correct.

I could say a lot about what I think the history of ET actually is but I don't want to inflame things any more about that than I already have. Suffice it to say that I don't believe it was ever really practiced on a large scale until about 1990 when many technicians had become used to using ETD's to help them actually tune it. There are still many aural tuners out there in whom many people have a lot of confidence and who still tune in Reverse Well and firmly believe it to be ET and so do the people who hire them.

The author of this thread recently proclaimed that he sings in ET. That is absurd and preposterous! Nobody now or ever has sung in ET and nobody who plays any stringed or wind instrument either modern or antique ever did either.

If there ever could be any music that at all times had nothing but truly "in tune" intervals, it would surely be boring and lifeless. The temperament of a piano, whether a truly and properly executed ET or not is what provides the resonance that a piano has.

The oscillation in pitch that strings, winds and voices naturally produce when practicing good musicianship and intonation is what contributes beauty to music. I am no Baroque music expert or enthusiast, to be sure but I can tell that often, what is desired is not ET at all but Just Intonation. The desire for that purity of sound only occurs fleetingly. Nevertheless, that occasional pure sound is what contributes to musical beauty as does all of the rest of the impurity.

The resonance of a piano tuned in ET was what the late Virgil Smith taught in piano tuning for decades. He surely did believe in ET and tuned entirely by ear but he was often disappointed at the results of other aural tuners and particularly the results of ETD tunings. Nobody seemed to put the right amount of stretch in the octaves that would produce the kind of resonance that he did as his usual practice.

When I try to describe what to do to get that same kind of stretch, I get vitriolic condemnations of it and endless rantings of how it would not work, could not work and should not be tried. If I add to it that a carefully constructed Well Temperament could enhance that resonance even further, I get complete condemnation and remarks about how all the real technicians that used to participate on here have left in disgust by it.

Frankly, I don't care who comes and goes and never have either on here or any other forum. I prefer to talk about what has worked for me and the success I have made of it. Maybe I have polarized thought about temperament just as the Governor of the state of Wisconsin has done about certain political issues.

That seems to be a tradition here. It is either one way or the other. You either believe in what you are doing and stick with it, practice it, continue to serve it up or you do the best you can with whatever you may know. What I know is that ET, as a model and a goal is not worthy of pursuit. The more it is perfected, the less interesting a piano becomes.

I only need to go back to a match up between Virgil Smith and me in 1998 when, in an audience of exclusively piano technicians, the original EBVT prevailed over Virgil's best effort at ET, 4:1. In a re-match the next year in Chicago, there were virtually the same results with Virgil conceding, "I like that temperament."

It does not matter to me how many people liked what I did at either of those demonstrations, whether they understood it or not, whether any of them took it up or not. It also does not matter to me any of the negative comments on here may be. None of them have ever changed what I do nor will they ever. I'll just keep on doing what I do regardless. I will also keep noting virtually on a daily basis that what has been claimed to be ET, believed to be ET, ranted and raved about to be the only way to tune a piano, is actually a backwards version of what I do.


Well when the UT flavour of the month dissapears into obscurity, as all others before it always have, you may want to divert your energy into changing Wisconsins' great cheese. Its been yellow far to long and is really in need of some food colouring or something to spice it up.

Just make sure you market it using the same stratagy as EBVT. Point out that their great cheese is actually "reverse well cheese" and inferior to your own.

BTW Bill, just what kind of perfect stretch and resonance did the late Virgil Smith use on that Kawai in the Chicago tune off against Mr Colemans' ETD only tuning. It lost by a 10% margin if I remember correctly.


Edited by Emmery (06/29/12 01:12 AM)
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#1920348 - 06/29/12 01:06 AM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: UnrightTooner]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1703
Loc: London, England
Legendary principal horn Aubrey Brain (father of more famous Dennis Brain) is remembered for much insight and wisdom.

He forbade any discussion of religion, politics or intonation in any of his horn sections.

The rule still holds in all the orchestras he worked with.

He said, If you can't hear it, what on earth is the point of talking about it?


Edited by rxd (06/29/12 01:54 AM)
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



Top
#1920386 - 06/29/12 02:24 AM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: Emmery]
beethoven986 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 3320
Originally Posted By: Emmery

BTW Bill, just what kind of perfect stretch and resonance did the late Virgil Smith use on that Kawai in the Chicago tune off against Mr Colemans' ETD only tuning. It lost by a 10% margin if I remember correctly.


It is interesting to note that Coleman also developed his own well-temperaments....
_________________________
B.Mus. Piano Performance 2009
M.Mus. Piano Performance & Literature 2011
PTG Associate Member
Certified Dampp-Chaser installer

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#1920438 - 06/29/12 07:11 AM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: DoelKees]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4908
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
In ET all intervals are equally out of tune. In WT some intervals are less out of tune and some are more out of tune.
Pick what you think sounds best.

Kees


Good post, Kees. I should have known I could count on you. You probably even know where I am going to go with this.

What you have said is true only if the standard of being in-tune is just temperment, there is no iH, and the octaves are at 2:1 ratios.

If the standard of being in-tune is for the elements (unison, intervals, chords, keys, progressions, etc.) to sound like they are tuned the same, then only ET fits the bill.

Or if we absolutely have to stick with something that is just (coincidental partials) then ET still fits the bill with either the 5th, 12th or 19th being just. (Another possibility is the 22nd.) And depending on the iH of a piano the one of family of 5th intervals allows the octaves to sound beatless.

This brings up another facet of UT tuning that seems to be swept under the rug. It causes a "family feud" between the 5th family and the octave family as the temperment is expanded. The condundrum results in, well, trash being placed where it is least noticeable.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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