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Topic Options
#1932692 - 07/26/12 12:14 PM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: Ed Foote]
Larry Buck Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/04
Posts: 2358
Loc: Lowell MA
Originally Posted By: Ed Foote
greetings,
It is impossible to accurately define what is in tune with words. We have to listen to know what we are talking about.

I have a well-tempered track available for free. It track # 12 and can be found at
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/enidkatahn

This is not a Victorian tuning, this is a well-temperament, (Prinz). Gb. Ab, Db all have 21 cent tonic thirds,(the full syntonic comma), and leaves little doubt that one is in expressive territory. B and E are not far from those extremes, also. I intentionally used a strong tuning for this piece so that listeners could find out for themselves if the well-tempered sound offers a more musical listening. ( I am open to any and all critiques).

There are several clear progressions Mozart takes with this. You can hear them in certain places, ie. from time marks 29-35 you hear an approach to consonance that builds dissonance as it near resolution. The same can be heard in 1:33-1:40 and 2:45-2:50. I don't know of a clearer example of a composer approaching a point of resolution by building progressively higher levels of dissonance before then resolving to consonance.

To anyone listening for either an expressive passage, or an alien third, you will find it here. I, and many others, think there is a musical context for these sizes of intervals. If one hears this as out-of-tune in comparison to an ET version, then that is a different point of view. There is no wrong or right involved here, it is a matter of taste!
Regards,


thumb
_________________________
"If I have seen further than others, it is by standing upon the shoulders of giants."
Isaac Newton

E. J. Buck & Sons
Lowell MA 01852
978 458 8688
www.ejbuckpiano.com
http://www.facebook.com/EJBuckPerformances

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#1932701 - 07/26/12 12:37 PM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: UnrightTooner]
Larry Buck Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/04
Posts: 2358
Loc: Lowell MA
I wonder what Mozart would do with ET?

I also wonder if he would be inspired to write the same pieces as he did or if the "tuning of the day" played a significant part in the way he was inspired.

It would be interesting to ask Mozart for his opinions.

Or his tuner for his.
_________________________
"If I have seen further than others, it is by standing upon the shoulders of giants."
Isaac Newton

E. J. Buck & Sons
Lowell MA 01852
978 458 8688
www.ejbuckpiano.com
http://www.facebook.com/EJBuckPerformances

Top
#1932707 - 07/26/12 12:50 PM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: UnrightTooner]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21821
Loc: Oakland
He probably would be used to the tuning he grew up with.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#1932711 - 07/26/12 01:03 PM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: UnrightTooner]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
You guys still going back and forth? There is no hope... You are in an endless tunnel of drive yourself craAZZZYY........... grin

_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#1932719 - 07/26/12 01:27 PM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: Ed Foote]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4954
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: Ed Foote
greetings,
It is impossible to accurately define what is in tune with words. We have to listen to know what we are talking about.

.....

And here we are right back the Emperor's New Clothes:

Oh, you listened to it and it doesn't sound in-tune to you? My, my what a pity. So you want to listen again? Ah, you do hear that it is in-tune now. Excellent!
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

Top
#1932725 - 07/26/12 01:50 PM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: Jerry Groot RPT]
Larry Buck Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/04
Posts: 2358
Loc: Lowell MA
Originally Posted By: Jerry Groot RPT
You guys still going back and forth? There is no hope... You are in an endless tunnel of drive yourself craAZZZYY........... grin





Excellent Jerry !!!
_________________________
"If I have seen further than others, it is by standing upon the shoulders of giants."
Isaac Newton

E. J. Buck & Sons
Lowell MA 01852
978 458 8688
www.ejbuckpiano.com
http://www.facebook.com/EJBuckPerformances

Top
#1932743 - 07/26/12 02:22 PM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: UnrightTooner]
Mark Davis Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 665
Howard Goodall, "Big Bangs" book - "Much Western music is so exquisitely beautiful it's impossible to imagine a world without it. Most music written since Bach's time actually needs Equal Temperament for it to function properly, and that includes nearly all popular music... Without ET, Western music would have been deprived of many of it's preccious jewels."
_________________________
Mark Davis
Piano Tuner & Technician

Top
#1932749 - 07/26/12 02:40 PM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: Mark Davis]
Withindale Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 2058
Loc: Suffolk, England
Originally Posted By: Mark Davis
Howard Goodall, "Big Bangs" book - "Much Western music is so exquisitely beautiful it's impossible to imagine a world without it. Most music written since Bach's time actually needs Equal Temperament for it to function properly, and that includes nearly all popular music... Without ET, Western music would have been deprived of many of it's preccious jewels."


Interesting, so I looked at the Channel 4 Big Bangs website:

Composers realised that the ideal would be to create equal temperament: a single mathematical pattern of notes which would become the blueprint for all the keys and enable different keys to be used in the same piece of music. How could this be done?

The man who would develop a solution to this problem and therefore change the course of musical history was the great J.S. Bach (1685–1750). In 1722, he produced the most important book of keyboard pieces ever written: 'The Well-Tempered Clavier". It comprises two series of preludes and fugues, each series including all the twelve major and all the twelve minor keys. This used equal temperament, which meant an adjustment in the tuning of the keyboard away from the 'natural' scale. Its publication was a critical turning point in the history of western music. Without it, the complex works of future composers could never have been written. Composers now had the tools to move easily from key to key.


Now we know ...

_________________________
Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 55" upright
Ibach, 1922 49" upright (project piano)

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#1932752 - 07/26/12 02:43 PM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: UnrightTooner]
Mark Davis Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 665
Howard Goodall, is a composer and broadcaster. He is also the writer and presenter of the channel Four TV Series (UK - I think), BIG BANGS, on which his book is based, and written in 2000.
_________________________
Mark Davis
Piano Tuner & Technician

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#1932760 - 07/26/12 03:01 PM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: Withindale]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3293
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: Withindale

Now we know ...



Now we know yet another source for the repetition of the Big Lie.

Here's some Western music that certainly could not have existed without ET:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zD42nCMIHsI
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1932776 - 07/26/12 03:37 PM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: UnrightTooner]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2481
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Further in depth study is needed to sort this out and lead the decieved majority back on to the righteous path....


Edited by Emmery (07/26/12 03:39 PM)
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#1932795 - 07/26/12 04:55 PM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: UnrightTooner]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2405
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Perhaps this would help the discussion :



"Don't laugh, I'm listening to ET, UT, and WT, and I am very confused!?!)


Edited by Grandpianoman (07/26/12 04:55 PM)
Edit Reason: Spelling

Top
#1932799 - 07/26/12 05:05 PM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: UnrightTooner]
charleslang Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/13/08
Posts: 2084
These threads are about temperaments for tuning pianos??!

All this time I thought everyone here was talking about the viral hit song "My EBT" on YouTube: My EBT song

I agree that the chorus is extremely catchy:
"My EBT, my EBT, I just swipe my EBT!"
"My EBT, my EBT, I just swipe my EBT!"
_________________________
Charles Lang

Baldwin Model R; Hardman 5'9" grand; Rieger-Kloss vertical

Jazz, pop and classical

Top
#1932841 - 07/26/12 07:07 PM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: Ed Foote]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Ed Foote
greetings,
It is impossible to accurately define what is in tune with words. We have to listen to know what we are talking about.

I have a well-tempered track available for free. It track # 12 and can be found at
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/enidkatahn

This is not a Victorian tuning, this is a well-temperament, (Prinz). Gb. Ab, Db all have 21 cent tonic thirds,(the full syntonic comma), and leaves little doubt that one is in expressive territory. B and E are not far from those extremes, also. I intentionally used a strong tuning for this piece so that listeners could find out for themselves if the well-tempered sound offers a more musical listening. ( I am open to any and all critiques).

There are several clear progressions Mozart takes with this. You can hear them in certain places, ie. from time marks 29-35 you hear an approach to consonance that builds dissonance as it near resolution. The same can be heard in 1:33-1:40 and 2:45-2:50. I don't know of a clearer example of a composer approaching a point of resolution by building progressively higher levels of dissonance before then resolving to consonance.

To anyone listening for either an expressive passage, or an alien third, you will find it here. I, and many others, think there is a musical context for these sizes of intervals. If one hears this as out-of-tune in comparison to an ET version, then that is a different point of view. There is no wrong or right involved here, it is a matter of taste!
Regards,


Just a quiclk listening but the piano, the tunings and the playing (and probably the sound recording) are thousand times better than the first recording on Beethoven..
I will listen to that this week end. Thanks for the links
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


Top
#1933029 - 07/27/12 07:15 AM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: UnrightTooner]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4954
Loc: Bradford County, PA
All:

I was looking at a beautiful piece of furniture the other day. It had been "Antiqued" very tastefully with dings and wear marks. Another piece could have been made with a high gloss black polyester finish and it would also have been beautiful. But if I was asked which one was perfect, I would have to go with the one that was not intentionally dinged up.

Perfection and beauty are not the same thing. Neither is being in-tune and being musical the same thing.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

Top
#1933044 - 07/27/12 08:06 AM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: UnrightTooner]
Withindale Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 2058
Loc: Suffolk, England
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
Perfection and beauty are not the same thing. Neither is being in-tune and being musical the same thing.

A very good point ... so in-tune can be unmusical, and out-of-tune can be musical ...


Edited by Withindale (07/28/12 06:01 AM)
Edit Reason: ...
_________________________
Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 55" upright
Ibach, 1922 49" upright (project piano)

Top
#1933492 - 07/28/12 06:25 AM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: Withindale]
Withindale Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 2058
Loc: Suffolk, England
Originally Posted By: Withindale
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
Perfection and beauty are not the same thing. Neither is being in-tune and being musical the same thing.

A very good point ... so in-tune can be unmusical, and out-of-tune can be musical ...

... but the key point is that distinguishing what is in-tune from musicality allows for objective measurement:



You can use software like Dirk's Piano Tuner, which Kamin commends as a learning tool that produces musical results, simply to see whether a piano is at its most consonant. ET today, WTs to come.

Consumer versions (without the tuning screens) for pianists to assess the state of tuning of their pianos could be the next step.


Edited by Withindale (07/28/12 04:09 PM)
_________________________
Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 55" upright
Ibach, 1922 49" upright (project piano)

Top
#1933496 - 07/28/12 06:52 AM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: UnrightTooner]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
All:

I was looking at a beautiful piece of furniture the other day. It had been "Antiqued" very tastefully with dings and wear marks. Another piece could have been made with a high gloss black polyester finish and it would also have been beautiful. But if I was asked which one was perfect, I would have to go with the one that was not intentionally dinged up.

Perfection and beauty are not the same thing. Neither is being in-tune and being musical the same thing.


Especially since no one can agree on what "in tune" means. laugh
_________________________
DiGiorgi Piano Service (1984-2013)
http://www.digiorgipiano.com

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#1933497 - 07/28/12 06:58 AM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: UnrightTooner]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
When you get down to it, as we have seen, there is no absolute when it comes to "in tune" when it comes to the 12-note octave that is physically possible.

Consequently, what most people mean (I think) when they say "in tune" is "sounds good." Sometimes it's "sounds great!" Other times, it's "sounds awful!"

And with that we arrive to the conclusion that what sounds good to some just doesn't sound good to others. I've been called to look at pianos that someone else recently tuned and found that it really was an excellent tuning. Still, the customer just didn't like the way it sounded. Here was a tuning that certainly would have passed any tuning exam, but, in the customer's words, "I don't like it. It just sounds dead."

Conversely, I've come across mediocre tunings that customers just raved about.

When you get down to it, it's all about what the listener hears and perceives. They may exclaim "Now THAT piano is in tune!" and maybe the piano is or isn't. But they like the sound.

I strive to get pianos "in tune" as I know them to be in tune. When tuning ET, I run through all the checks and intervals, be careful to get the smooth progression of RBIs, make sure the stretch is progressing as it should, etc. When I'm done, if the customer likes what I've done, then good. If they don't, no amount of academic explanation is going to cause them to like it.

Naturally, I hope they do.
_________________________
DiGiorgi Piano Service (1984-2013)
http://www.digiorgipiano.com

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#1934577 - 07/30/12 07:10 AM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: Loren D]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4954
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: Loren D
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
All:

I was looking at a beautiful piece of furniture the other day. It had been "Antiqued" very tastefully with dings and wear marks. Another piece could have been made with a high gloss black polyester finish and it would also have been beautiful. But if I was asked which one was perfect, I would have to go with the one that was not intentionally dinged up.

Perfection and beauty are not the same thing. Neither is being in-tune and being musical the same thing.


Especially since no one can agree on what "in tune" means. laugh


Nothing can be agreed upon when the criteria is based on personal preference. That is one of my main points. To have even a possibility of agreement we must look for something that is objective, not subjective. Otherwise the term in-tune has no meaning at all. It would be like defining the term "a staight line" as "a line that I like".
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

Top
#1934594 - 07/30/12 08:20 AM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: UnrightTooner]
RonTuner Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1674
Loc: Chicagoland
Yup, that makes sense... when an interval is Just, it is in tune. Easy to describe and understand. Everything else you've been trying to do is to take a system you like (ET) and then come up with reasons that all about it must be called "in tune" - nothing objective about it at all!

Ron Koval
_________________________
Piano/instrument technician
www.ronkoval.com
@ronkoval

my piano videos:
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=drwoodwind


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#1934597 - 07/30/12 08:27 AM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: UnrightTooner]
wcctuner Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/22/06
Posts: 116
Loc: Princeton, NJ
Obviously not everybody will agree on this, and that is a good thing. It keeps us thinking, and no progress is made in any field if someone doesn't challenge the accepted norm. In the end, it is our job to give the customer what they want. In many cases, the temperament used is the tuner's choice, as many, if not most,pianists don't know what the differences are, and don't care-they want the piano to sound good to their own ears. In college situations such as mine, some people will ask for a WT for various reasons, and it it is my job to give that to them, no matter what I think of that temperament. All of us need to keep an open mind, and not criticize those who don't agree with us.
_________________________
Dave Forman
Piano Technician, Westminster Choir College of Rider University

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#1934600 - 07/30/12 08:41 AM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: RonTuner]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4954
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: RonTuner
Yup, that makes sense... when an interval is Just, it is in tune. Easy to describe and understand. Everything else you've been trying to do is to take a system you like (ET) and then come up with reasons that all about it must be called "in tune" - nothing objective about it at all!

Ron Koval


Ron:

Tying in what I am saying with any percieved preference for ET or any other temperment is making a straw man for you to knock down. Couldn't I do the same with a preference for WT? Couldn't I say that because you have a preference for WT then you simply dismiss the idea of there being such a thing as in-tune on a piano, so that you need not look at the fact that UTs are by designed to be out-of-tune? (Actually, I am not so sure this would be a straw man...)

But this sort of thing does not get to the point that I am making. It would be just another cheap shot like the one you continue to take, Ron.

It is fine if you think that only just intervals can be in-tune (which means only the simplest music can be in-tune). That is an appropriate point to make, and one that can be discussed and countered.

And when the idea of only just intonation being in-tune is countered with the fact that we do have complex music that is performed in-tune, we have to ask what objective criteria could be used to define this quality.

Or we can dismiss the idea that complex is performed in-tune so as not to have consider the matter at all.

And that is what I see your position to be, Ron. It reminds me of an ostrich with his head in the sand.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

Top
#1934602 - 07/30/12 08:47 AM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: Larry Buck]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Larry Buck
Originally Posted By: Ed Foote
greetings,
It is impossible to accurately define what is in tune with words. We have to listen to know what we are talking about.

I have a well-tempered track available for free. It track # 12 and can be found at
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/enidkatahn

This is not a Victorian tuning, this is a well-temperament, (Prinz). Gb. Ab, Db all have 21 cent tonic thirds,(the full syntonic comma), and leaves little doubt that one is in expressive territory. B and E are not far from those extremes, also. I intentionally used a strong tuning for this piece so that listeners could find out for themselves if the well-tempered sound offers a more musical listening. ( I am open to any and all critiques).

There are several clear progressions Mozart takes with this. You can hear them in certain places, ie. from time marks 29-35 you hear an approach to consonance that builds dissonance as it near resolution. The same can be heard in 1:33-1:40 and 2:45-2:50. I don't know of a clearer example of a composer approaching a point of resolution by building progressively higher levels of dissonance before then resolving to consonance.

To anyone listening for either an expressive passage, or an alien third, you will find it here. I, and many others, think there is a musical context for these sizes of intervals. If one hears this as out-of-tune in comparison to an ET version, then that is a different point of view. There is no wrong or right involved here, it is a matter of taste!
Regards,


thumb


I again listened and have the impression I have lost my time.
5I had ordered the first CD "Beethoven in temperaments with simimar results)

Do anyone find some elegance in that harmony at 3:30 ?

DO the modulmation Fmin to A maj6 inversion sound pleasing ?

Sound unstable and desordoned to me.

The piano also sound as if the hammers are covered with cotton balls, so the tone is so short, indeed with that kind of dynamics expressibility is reduced, for the pianist the tone simply does not sing enough.

Anything that can add some surprise, tonally speaking, may be welcome.

Then, possibly the too modern tone of the piano (despite that strange voicing) is not helping me to accept that, and I would have be pleased more on a forte piana or another historical instrument.

However, if it please some of you lets be it.
I for sure dont trust much about the justness of the historical reasoning behind, but Ok I did not push my thinking much there, just try to accept quietly what was proposed.

Anyway nobody can sell that tuning to me as being "in tune" even if I am supposed to accept strange harmonies.

The quality of the piano is better than on the other record, so is the tuning, but this is not pushing me to experiment in that direction, not yet (I'll wait when my ears begin to hear less wink )

I apologize and hope my comments dont look too aggressive... I am just deceived.




Edited by Kamin (07/30/12 08:49 AM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


Top
#1934791 - 07/30/12 03:36 PM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: UnrightTooner]
RonTuner Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1674
Loc: Chicagoland
Jeff, you may have read and understood me wrong... While I'm currently tuning mostly mild WT tunings, I also go through long ET tuning times. It keeps it interesting for me, and working with WTs has certainly sharpened my ear for tuning in ET. I can enjoy music with a variety of tunings, including ET. There are some magical moments in WT tunings that are impossible to experience in ET, but ET offers a semblance of the "blank slate" that many chromatic composers and musicians appreciate.

Yes, WT tunings are out of tune, just as all ET tunings are also out of tune - after all that's what tempering means! As a performer both vocally and in orchestral settings I'm well aware of the limitations of fixed pitch instruments.

My protest in this long discussion continues to be your insistence on re-labeling out of tune (tempered) tuning as in tune, and then by extension calling all intervals in that same tuning in tune... If that wasn't bad enough, you then use this same re-label to then bash other temperaments as out of tune. All the tunings take the comma and distribute it in some logical way... The only tunings with some in tune intervals can be really restrictive, as you've pointed out - that's not really being argued here.

Musicians and piano owner preferences are my top priority. How can we know their preference without us educating them? (What a cop-out to simply say that no one has ever requested a WT!! How many owners request ET by name, unless a tuner has told them to request it - often without ever showing the possible benefits of a WT?) As I've said before, most don't care, or can't tell the difference until a temperament gets pretty strong. Very few prefer ET (one or two so far in a decade or so of educating) and some prefer some level of a WT, and I'm happy to help them in the discovery process!

Ron Koval
_________________________
Piano/instrument technician
www.ronkoval.com
@ronkoval

my piano videos:
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=drwoodwind


Top
#1935167 - 07/31/12 07:21 AM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: UnrightTooner]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4954
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Ron:

Thanks for the response, really. There are those that have posted on this Topic that understand what I am saying and agree with it, but so what? What is to be gained? But others, like you, take exception to what I say and a productive, lively dialog can be the result. smile

For instance, I have mulled over what you have said about me taking the stand that ET is in-tune because I like ET. This is a claim of circular logic, and I wonder about this type of argument. After all, if someone is truly objective on a subject, there is a logical path to follow, and discounts other possibilities because they are logically flawed, they can’t be guilty of circular logic. In fact they could only be guilty of circular logic if they came up with some other conclusion.

But back to the specific subject at hand. As I have said before, the real difference between what I believe and what you believe is whether a piano can be in-tune or not. That is the real difference, not what temperment you, I or anyone else actually tune or prefer.

Now consider the actual act of tuning a piano. Of course most intervals are tempered from just intonation, and the tempering of these intervals are compared to each other. Using beatrates is one way to compare them. The timbre of intervals, and even chords, are another.

And I can understand that a tuner might strive for all intervals being equally out-of-tune from just intonation in order to arrive at ET. And I can understand that a tuner might strive for some intervals being less out-of-tune from just intonation in order to arrive at a UT. But can you understand that a tuner could strive for intervals being in-tune with each other to arrive at ET, or a tuner could strive for intervals being out-of-tune with each other to arrive at a UT?

When I started tuning, I also thought in terms of ET being when everything is equally out-of-tune. And it was fun to say to someone, “A piano cannot be perfectly in-tune. It can only be perfectly out-of-tune.” just to see their consternation. Yeah, it made me feel superior knowing that what they thought was in-tune actually wasn’t. But who was the fool…?

No, when nothing sticks out in a tuning, the piano sounds in-tune. Beats no longer matter. Just intonation no longer matters. Temperament no longer matters. In that Mr. Foote, and others, are correct. And that brings up the question of what do you call a tuning that deliberately makes some keys sound different than others?

Pianos can and do sound out-of-tune or in-tune depending on whether something in the tuning sticks out or not.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1935192 - 07/31/12 09:14 AM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: UnrightTooner]
RonTuner Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1674
Loc: Chicagoland
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
Ron:

And I can understand that a tuner might strive for all intervals being equally out-of-tune from just intonation in order to arrive at ET. And I can understand that a tuner might strive for some intervals being less out-of-tune from just intonation in order to arrive at a UT. But can you understand that a tuner could strive for intervals being in-tune with each other to arrive at ET, or a tuner could strive for intervals being out-of-tune with each other to arrive at a UT?




Good points Jeff, and can you also understand that in an unequal temperament one can strive for intervals to be in tune with each other (equal beating), where in ET those intervals are out of tune with each other? (progressive beat rates?)

Once again, the sticking point is not only the in tune/out of tune language, but the connotations that piggyback along with the discussion; in tune is better, where out of tune must be inferior... That's also the reason why I've shifted my own language most of the time to call UTs tonal temperaments and ET as the atonal temperament... Language DOES matter in the emotional influence of discussing the range of tunings available for pianos.

Ron Koval
_________________________
Piano/instrument technician
www.ronkoval.com
@ronkoval

my piano videos:
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=drwoodwind


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#1935206 - 07/31/12 09:55 AM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: UnrightTooner]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4954
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Ron:

Language nuances matter only when subjective connotations are considered. However, misdirection always matters. Don't you deliberately try to misdirect with your tonal/atonal diversion, as if ET makes tonal music sound as if it was atonal music?

However, this is not the case with how I use in-tune and out-of-tune. Otherwise you would simply say that it is a misapplication of the term rather than trying to use the term in ways that work for UTs but not for ET. You do this when trying to hold fast to either just intervals being in-tune or equal beating intervals being in-tune, but disregard equally tempered intervals being in-tune! (And by the way, striving for RBIs to beat equally in a UT is kind of silly. If they don't all beat differently, as in ET, some will beat virtually the same. Well, perhaps not in some really wild UTs.)

But what if there was a temperment sequence that specified that an interval was equally tempered AND beat the same? I think first of pure 5ths, 12ths and 19ths, but suddenly remembered another one that is well thought of. It is the Baldrassin/Sanderson temperment sequence. It is ET, so the intervals are all tempered equally. It also specifies 4ths that beat at the same bps.

How Now, Brown Cow? smile
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1935210 - 07/31/12 10:03 AM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: Olek]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3293
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Kamin,

I try to read all of your posts because you do have some very interesting things to say at times, even though I often disagree with them personally. I am actively teaching a student French this Summer, so some things that you write, I can figure out because I know both languages but others may be puzzled by them. Perhaps you may want to make a note of these, so that you can communicate more effectively.

Originally Posted By: Kamin


I again listened and have the impression I have lost my time...[snip]


« J'ai perdu mon temps» in English is, "I wasted my time".

Originally Posted By: Kamin

Sound unstable and desordoned to me.


«désorganisé» in English is "disorganized". You meant to say in this phrase, "It sounds unstable and disorganized to me"


Originally Posted By: Kamin

The piano also sound as if the hammers are covered with cotton balls, so the tone is so short, indeed with that kind of dynamics expressibility is reduced, for the pianist the tone simply does not sing enough.


Here, you meant, "expressiveness". Please keep in mind, however that the European and Asian preferences for voicing are generally quite different from those in North America. With the exception of some popular music and "Country" music recordings, North Americans prefer a much softer tone than most Europeans and Asians do.

Originally Posted By: Kamin

However, if it please some of you lets be it.


«Que ça soit» in English is either, "So it be" or "Let it be". North Americans prefer a softer tone, so, let it be understood that you will generally find that to be the case.

Originally Posted By: Kamin

I apologize and hope my comments dont look too aggressive... I am just deceived.


Here, you used a classic "false cognate" («un faux ami entre l'anglais et le français»). «Je suis déçu» in English is, "I am disappointed". If you say, "I am deceived", it means, «Je suis trompé».

Also, remember to put the apostrophe in the word, "don't". It would be just as well to write, "do not" as the contraction is used in informal speech.

If I were to write the above phrase, I would write, "I apologize in advance if my comments appear too aggressive. I am simply disappointed in what I heard".


Edited by Bill Bremmer RPT (07/31/12 11:58 AM)
Edit Reason: changed the word, "is" to "if"
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Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1935236 - 07/31/12 11:28 AM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: RonTuner]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3293
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: RonTuner


Once again, the sticking point is not only the in tune/out of tune language, but the connotations that piggyback along with the discussion; in tune is better, where out of tune must be inferior... That's also the reason why I've shifted my own language most of the time to call UTs tonal temperaments and ET as the atonal temperament... Language DOES matter in the emotional influence of discussing the range of tunings available for pianos.

Ron Koval


I agree with this. Certainly to some, any dissonance beyond a 14 cent wide M3 may sound out of tune and a M3 with less beating may sound unpleasantly "dead". Any more tempering than 2 cents narrow in a 5th may also sound, "not solid" as I have often heard people say.

On the other hand, the very lack of distinction between one tonality and the other is what displeases some people about ET.

It seems odd to me that people would aspire to have perfect Just Intonation if they could have it. It is possible on some advanced synthesizers. Imagine if every Major triad had a pure 5th and a pure M3 and every minor triad had a pure 5th and a pure minor third. The music would sound very dull and uninteresting, if you ask me but it would surely all sound, "in tune".

I had a CD of Wendy Carlos from 1997 called, "Switched on Bach 2000" where she did some of this. I must have loaned that CD to someone who never gave it back because I searched my entire collection twice over and could not find it. I searched on You Tube for some examples by Wendy Carlos but apparently, she guards her material and does not want it disseminated in any public way. You want it, you pay for it. So, even if I could find that CD, I should probably not post any sample on here.

I did find some interesting posts under "Just Intonation" on You Tube, however. The first sample I offer is that from Michael Harrison who is well known for this. I believe it was this anecdote about charging some $700 to tune a Steinway piano "back" to ET after a live concert that people talk about. Certainly, if one were to re-tune either mine or Ron's temperaments to ET, it would not be any more of a problem than one usually encounters when tuning a piano under any normal circumstances.

Here is Michael Harrisons, "Bells", music written for a piano in Just Intonation:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6TtE7HbbhM

I found one quote from a listener to be interesting:

Quote:
If an interval is right or wrong is purely subjective. Just intonation sounds 'wrong' only because we are so accustomed to hearing the modern tuning. There can be no real justification for anything in music other than 'it sounds good'. They only sound 'out of tune' because we aren't used to it.


Another did as well:

Quote:
Wonderful sound!

So it's basically non-tempered, if I understand it correctly? One can't help but think what a violation of nature the well-tempered clavier is.


There are some more that I found very intriguing. This example of Shubert's Impromptu #4 Op. 29 (if my memory serves me correctly) starts out in ET but goes to Just Intonation midway through it. Instead of very odd sounding intervals as were heard in the Michael Harrison piece, the music seems brighter and clearer in Just Intonation. (It must be Just Intonation adjusted for the key of A-flat).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vg1__oHjpIA

Here is the same piece in its entirety that was recorded by a live pianist (not the player system) at Grandpianoman's house a year ago. If you ask me, the sound that I get which so many of my customers describe as "pure", "even" and very much "in tune" is because I strike a delicate balance between slightly more consonant and slightly more dissonant M3's, a mix of sizes among the 5ths from pure to slightly more tempered than in ET and some very careful but deliberate manipulation of the octaves.

I have used that "recipe" for many years now and it works for me. I got this unsolicited message from a piano owner in NYC over the weekend:

Quote:
I recently tuned my 1915 133 scale Chickering quarter grand to your [temperament]. I have to say that with the cover wide open, I have never been so intrigued, delighted, and compelled by the sound. I like it mostly when I play Debussy pieces and the least when I play Beethoven or Mozart. Anyway, I don't have much time except to say, thank you. Others mention that the piano sounds 4 dimensional, "incredible", "alive".


Those who want to criticize what I do have often said that while the more consonant intervals may be pleasing, it is the more dissonant ones which would make it intolerable. Yet, it seems that I get more compliments about it when people play music that is not supposed to work as in the above example.

Here is Schubert's piece, in A-flat Major, a key that is supposedly more dissonant than would be tolerable and that many believe would only work in ET or would only sound, "in tune" in ET:

https://www.box.com/s/21f5b6a2cc913170f55f

There was also a post of Pachelbel's Canon in D played on a synthesizer first in Just Intonation, then in Meantone, then in ET. Frankly, I could hear very little distinction between the three since it is an early piece that does not modulate. The Just Intonation and Meantone were adjusted for the key of D (which one would not usually do on a piano). The Just Intonation sounded the clearest and most "in tune" the Meantone sounded the "warmest" and the ET sounded slightly "out of tune" to me compared to the two others.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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