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#1935251 - 07/31/12 11:54 AM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7438
Loc: Rochester MN
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT

If I were to write the above phrase, I would write, "I apologize in advance is my comments appear too aggressive. I am simply disappointed in what I heard".


Hi Bill,

Your "translation" of Kamin's ESL writing is very helpful to all of us. I enjoy Kamin's comments, but am often confused by the usage employed (no offense to Kamin intended). Translation of idomatic speech is very difficult and takes advanced understanding of a language which is a skill that you posess.

In the above quote, I am confused by the phrase you submitted as a substitution. It is just a typo, but I am trying to figure out which typo occured leading to two different meanings.

... in advance if my comments ... (or)
... in advance as my comments ...

If the second is correct, would the inclusion of "in advance" be appropriate with the sentence structure in French?
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#1935255 - 07/31/12 12:04 PM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4943
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Bill:

Ron got me onto a "kick". He focused on how I was saying what I am saying, so I am trying the same thing on others. After all it is an election year...

Your latest post talked about what you hear as in-tune and out-of-tune. But an earlier post on this Topic mentioned that you do not even consider what is in-tune or out-of-tune. If you insist, I will try to find and quote it.

Do you want syrup with your waffle?
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1935269 - 07/31/12 12:15 PM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: UnrightTooner]
Bill Bremmer RPT Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3236
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Thanks for your comment, Marty. I mistyped the word, "if" as "is". (I fixed the mistake). I do try to take the time to proof read all of my posts but I am not perfect at doing that. I don't claim to be an expert in English either, as having any advanced degree in it but it is my language.

I have studied French for more than 40 years, (as long, in fact as I have studied piano technology). French and English are actually very closely related languages. A thousand years ago, the ancient Anglo-Saxon language was assaulted by French and left behind a curious corruption of Low German and even Lower French. So, even though many words look similar, the way that English and French speakers think about things often does not connect. One can study the false cognates from a book but it takes many years of experience to be able to turn an idiomatic expression from French to English and vice-versa.

Like piano technology, it is a never ending process.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1935272 - 07/31/12 12:18 PM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: UnrightTooner]
Bill Bremmer RPT Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3236
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
Bill:

Ron got me onto a "kick". He focused on how I was saying what I am saying, so I am trying the same thing on others. After all it is an election year...

Your latest post talked about what you hear as in-tune and out-of-tune. But an earlier post on this Topic mentioned that you do not even consider what is in-tune or out-of-tune. If you insist, I will try to find and quote it.

Do you want syrup with your waffle?


I just meant what I heard in those You tube examples I looked up. Normally, I don't think about one kind of tuning sounding more or less "in tune" than another because I know they are all out of tune in one way or another.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1935280 - 07/31/12 12:29 PM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: UnrightTooner]
Mark R. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 2021
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
Off-topic, but connected to Bill's comments on Isaac's English:

Isaac, I've often noticed that you use the word "yet" when you probably intend to say "already". I'm not sure whether French has two separate words in this instance?

I too am very interested in your posts, so please keep them coming, in spite of any language barriers.

(By the way, being a native German speaker, I had to look up the meaning of "ESL". wink )
_________________________
Autodidact interested in piano technology.

1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

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#1935288 - 07/31/12 12:46 PM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: UnrightTooner]
RonTuner Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1664
Loc: Chicagoland
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
Ron:

Language nuances matter only when subjective connotations are considered. However, misdirection always matters. Don't you deliberately try to misdirect with your tonal/atonal diversion, as if ET makes tonal music sound as if it was atonal music?

How Now, Brown Cow? smile



The cow is fine, thanks.

Language matters in all discussions, especially when trying to remain objective. Sloppyness and using loaded terms slants the conversation.

I try for honesty.... tonal temperaments have some sort of yin/yang built-in based on the Western system of music tonality. ET, as the "blank slate" tuning strives to be atonal, not imparting any flavor to the music based on the Western system of tonality.

I would appreciate if you would also strive for honesty and not radically re-define terms already in use. Sure, it's convenient and sounds great to tell an owner that the piano is perfectly in tune now that I'VE finished tuning, but these kinds of statements just perpetuate ignorance of the subject. If owners ask, I may take the time to demonstrate the challenges of fixed pitch instruments that require tempering to tune - giving them a little to think about and increase their knowledge - that everything is a balancing act, while it can't be perfectly in tune, it can be perfectly balanced... (in theory, anyway!)

Tempered means changed from in just, or in tune... I think in your tuning style, only unisons and 12ths are untempered? Hardly a mark of a tuning that you could claim all intervals to be "in tune". Even the octaves will tend to be tempered with that approach.

Ron Koval
_________________________
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my piano videos:
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#1935309 - 07/31/12 01:14 PM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: UnrightTooner]
RonTuner Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1664
Loc: Chicagoland
After thinking about ET/UT, Atonal/Tonal labels, I see the point of not wanting to use UN- or A- to describe a tuning. I will try to change my use of language; equal temperament and tonal temperaments will be my preferred descriptive terms... ET/TT

Ron Koval
_________________________
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@ronkoval

my piano videos:
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#1935329 - 07/31/12 01:46 PM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: RonTuner]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4943
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: RonTuner
After thinking about ET/UT, Atonal/Tonal labels, I see the point of not wanting to use UN- or A- to describe a tuning. I will try to change my use of language; equal temperament and tonal temperaments will be my preferred descriptive terms... ET/TT

Ron Koval


I cannot think of objective, alternate labels for in-tune and out-of-tune. Just and unjust simply are not practical. Obviously I think that in-tune and not-in-tune are synonymous with ET and UT. And most of the music world does too. (Huh! It reminds me of the redefinition of "marriage"... How did marriage ever become other than what we grew up knowing it to be, and the same for ET being in-tune?)

And yes I tune pure unisons and twelfths. The 12ths automatically select the correct octaves and fifths. The tempering of the rest of the intervals depends on the scaling, including jumps in scaling. So if the fifths and octaves are appropriate for the scaling, what more could you want? And as you know, octaves are always tempered in one way or another because of iH.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1935362 - 07/31/12 02:18 PM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: UnrightTooner]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2395
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
So two temperaments, ET and UT, can create both a positive and negative effect in music for different listeners. A "tuning" is put on the piano to create either one.

The disagreements about whether one or the other temperament is out of tune relates to dispositional qualities we see in each other...not really an accoustic attribute of either temperament. The term to describe this disparity is called Fundamental Attribution Error.

Both quotes from Wikipedia...

"...fundamental attribution error (also known as correspondence bias or attribution effect) describes the tendency to over-value dispositional or personality-based explanations for the observed behaviors of others while under-valuing situational explanations for those behaviors".

"As a simple example, if Alice saw Bob trip over a rock and fall, Alice might consider Bob to be clumsy or careless (dispositional). If Alice tripped over the same rock herself, she would be more likely to blame the placement of the rock (situational)."

People filter out many of the differences between the temperaments to suit their own taste in the listening or playing experience. What we choose to filter (our disposition) dictates what we find "in tune".
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#1935377 - 07/31/12 02:49 PM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: UnrightTooner]
RonTuner Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1664
Loc: Chicagoland
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner


I cannot think of objective, alternate labels for in-tune and out-of-tune. Just and unjust simply are not practical. Obviously I think that in-tune and not-in-tune are synonymous with ET and UT. And most of the music world does too.


I cannot imagine three more untrue sentences cobbled together in one statement about the subject of tempering... (the one where you write what you think? That's probably true.)

Ron Koval
_________________________
Piano/instrument technician
www.ronkoval.com
@ronkoval

my piano videos:
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=drwoodwind


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#1935379 - 07/31/12 02:59 PM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: UnrightTooner]
RonTuner Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1664
Loc: Chicagoland
You see, you can imagine them because you write them in the next sentence - Just or not. Just and unjust have been in use for a good long time for the rest of the musical world to describe in tune and out of tune. As to your last statement? Remember that we are a tiny subset of the piano world which is a tiny subset of the musical world, who may not notice any difference between ET and any variety of TT... Again, you'd like a radical re-definition of something already in use...

Ron Koval
_________________________
Piano/instrument technician
www.ronkoval.com
@ronkoval

my piano videos:
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=drwoodwind


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#1935391 - 07/31/12 03:35 PM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: Emmery]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21580
Loc: Oakland
Originally Posted By: Emmery
So two temperaments, ET and UT, can create both a positive and negative effect in music for different listeners. A "tuning" is put on the piano to create either one.


Not two, since unequal temperament could be just about anything.
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Semipro Tech

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#1935425 - 07/31/12 05:23 PM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: UnrightTooner]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2350
Loc: Portland, Oregon
I have often wondered what a harpist tunes to. Is it ET, is it some UT or WT? What are the similariities to a piano as far as tuning.

I have never heard a harp sound "out of tune", unless the harpist did a bad job....is it "ET" as we know it in relation to the piano? I really enjoy hearing a well made harp recording, and have quite a few in my CD Library.

As we all know, this discussion of "out of tune" etc, is highly subjectiive, other than the external factors that are not subjective. The harp is a similar type instrument...but with different type strings and tensions, and construction. Perhaps therin lie the differences. Thoughts?


Edited by Grandpianoman (07/31/12 05:24 PM)
Edit Reason: added content

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#1935451 - 07/31/12 06:35 PM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: UnrightTooner]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21580
Loc: Oakland
The saying is that a harpist spends half the time tuning, and the other half playing out of tune.

There are several kinds of harp. Pedal harps can play chromatically. They are tuned to a diatonic scale (B, actually) and the pedals raise a string and all of its octaves by a half step or a whole step, depending on the position of the pedal. So those half steps are determined by the construction of the harp. They are supposed to be equal temperament.

However, most instruments do not tune as accurately as a piano does. There is likely to be some variation from a piano.

This is one of the factors that ought to be understood before going into the differences between temperaments: that is, how much variation you can have before you are tuning in a different temperament, varying from the intended temperament, or out of tune. These are vague terms, mores because they differ from instrument to instrument, as well as within the context of the music. It may be impossible to tell whether the difference between one tuning and the next was intentional or not.
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Semipro Tech

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#1935469 - 07/31/12 07:32 PM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: BDB]
accordeur Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 1201
Loc: Québec, Canada
Originally Posted By: BDB
The saying is that a harpist spends half the time tuning, and the other half playing out of tune.

There are several kinds of harp. Pedal harps can play chromatically. They are tuned to a diatonic scale (B, actually) and the pedals raise a string and all of its octaves by a half step or a whole step, depending on the position of the pedal. So those half steps are determined by the construction of the harp. They are supposed to be equal temperament.

However, most instruments do not tune as accurately as a piano does. There is likely to be some variation from a piano.

This is one of the factors that ought to be understood before going into the differences between temperaments: that is, how much variation you can have before you are tuning in a different temperament, varying from the intended temperament, or out of tune. These are vague terms, mores because they differ from instrument to instrument, as well as within the context of the music. It may be impossible to tell whether the difference between one tuning and the next was intentional or not.

+1
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Jean Poulin

Musician, Tuner and Technician

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#1935534 - 07/31/12 10:28 PM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: BDB]
Bill Bremmer RPT Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3236
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: BDB
The saying is that a harpist spends half the time tuning, and the other half playing out of tune.

There are several kinds of harp. Pedal harps can play chromatically. They are tuned to a diatonic scale (B, actually) and the pedals raise a string and all of its octaves by a half step or a whole step, depending on the position of the pedal. So those half steps are determined by the construction of the harp. They are supposed to be equal temperament.

However, most instruments do not tune as accurately as a piano does. There is likely to be some variation from a piano.

This is one of the factors that ought to be understood before going into the differences between temperaments: that is, how much variation you can have before you are tuning in a different temperament, varying from the intended temperament, or out of tune. These are vague terms, mores because they differ from instrument to instrument, as well as within the context of the music. It may be impossible to tell whether the difference between one tuning and the next was intentional or not.


With this, I totally agree. I asked a professional harpist about this. She said (and as I have observed harpists doing), they use a Korg type device to get the instrument basically on pitch. Then, they are likely to try the arpeggios that are called for in the music they are about to play and "tweak" some strings to suit their personal preference to whatever sounds "in tune" to them.

I have seen many a guitarist do likewise. What Ron and I typically do is analogous to that. It is a tweaked ET but tweaked very specifically and deliberately. Ron and Jim Coleman, Sr. went by numbers alone in designing a Well Temperament. I went by ear and found the values that corresponded to what my ear told me would work.

Many of the technicians who use mild WT's say that there are parameters for which the M3's need to stay within in order to remain within the bounds of what most people find tolerable. This means not too narrow nor too wide. My initial reasoning, after having observed the results of many other technicians was that most aural attempts at ET were not entirely equal yet their tunings were deemed to be acceptable.

I therefore reasoned that I had a certain range within which I could work and build a WT that do what a WT is supposed to do yet be useful for any and all music that the modern piano is supposed to play.

Here is the way I tune a six string guitar for anyone who would have me do it. Nearly any time I have posted it, I have had people say various things much like they do about he way I tune the piano. But I never have had a person for whom I did this do anything but get wide eyed, jaw drop and say, "Wow, does that ever sound good!"

E2: -2.0
A2: 0.0
D3: +1.0
G3: +2.0
B3: -1.0
E4: 0.0

I have seen a few professional guitarists do essentially the same thing by ear as they tweak the strings from the 0.0 value for each that would be taken from a common guitar tuning ETD.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1935661 - 08/01/12 06:37 AM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: UnrightTooner]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
Look. "Tempered," by definition, means "out of tune" when you get right down to it. Simple as that! Being that ANY temperament is TEMPERED, the (false) statement that ET is in tune while WTs are out of tune is simply...a lie!

Something is either tempered or it is in tune. I don't see how there can be any wiggle room on this unless someone cares to redefine "tempered" (Jeff?).
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#1935662 - 08/01/12 06:43 AM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: UnrightTooner]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7660
Loc: France
usual terminology does not really apply to pianos, in the end, that make discussion using those a little out of focus in my opinion.

A tempered interval at the piano is neared of pure than with any other instrument.
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#1935663 - 08/01/12 06:58 AM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: UnrightTooner]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
Terminology DOES apply. Words mean something. An interval is either in tune or it is tempered. It can't be both. It can "sound" pleasant, and indeed, our ears are used to tempered intervals "sounding" just fine. But we are now on 24 pages of debate when the fact is that any temperament is a deviation from "in tune."
_________________________
DiGiorgi Piano Service (1984-2013)
http://www.digiorgipiano.com

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#1935689 - 08/01/12 07:55 AM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: Loren D]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4943
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: Loren D
Terminology DOES apply. Words mean something. An interval is either in tune or it is tempered. It can't be both. It can "sound" pleasant, and indeed, our ears are used to tempered intervals "sounding" just fine. But we are now on 24 pages of debate when the fact is that any temperament is a deviation from "in tune."


An interval can be either just or tempered without even considering being in-tune. But when you talk about pianos, some intervals (such as octaves) can only be tempered because of iH.

_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1935694 - 08/01/12 08:06 AM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: BDB]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4943
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: BDB
Originally Posted By: Emmery
So two temperaments, ET and UT, can create both a positive and negative effect in music for different listeners. A "tuning" is put on the piano to create either one.


Not two, since unequal temperament could be just about anything.


I have the same thought, but don't want to go in that direction here.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1935696 - 08/01/12 08:09 AM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: Emmery]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4943
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: Emmery
So two temperaments, ET and UT, can create both a positive and negative effect in music for different listeners. A "tuning" is put on the piano to create either one.

The disagreements about whether one or the other temperament is out of tune relates to dispositional qualities we see in each other...not really an accoustic attribute of either temperament. The term to describe this disparity is called Fundamental Attribution Error.

Both quotes from Wikipedia...

"...fundamental attribution error (also known as correspondence bias or attribution effect) describes the tendency to over-value dispositional or personality-based explanations for the observed behaviors of others while under-valuing situational explanations for those behaviors".

"As a simple example, if Alice saw Bob trip over a rock and fall, Alice might consider Bob to be clumsy or careless (dispositional). If Alice tripped over the same rock herself, she would be more likely to blame the placement of the rock (situational)."

People filter out many of the differences between the temperaments to suit their own taste in the listening or playing experience. What we choose to filter (our disposition) dictates what we find "in tune".


You misunderstand me. I acknowledge that people can believe that in-tune is a matter of perception. I do not think this is necessary. I think it can be looked at completely objectively and have done so.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1935700 - 08/01/12 08:14 AM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: RonTuner]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4943
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: RonTuner
You see, you can imagine them because you write them in the next sentence - Just or not. Just and unjust have been in use for a good long time for the rest of the musical world to describe in tune and out of tune. As to your last statement? Remember that we are a tiny subset of the piano world which is a tiny subset of the musical world, who may not notice any difference between ET and any variety of TT... Again, you'd like a radical re-definition of something already in use...

Ron Koval


"Again, you'd like a radical re-definition of something already in use..."

Then are you saying that the way in-tune is used only means what a piano cannot be, and that I (only I) use the term in-tune to describe a piano in ET and I am trying to change the world view to conform to my opinion?
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1935716 - 08/01/12 09:01 AM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: UnrightTooner]
Bill Bremmer RPT Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3236
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Words ultimately have the meaning that people ascribe to them. It is interesting that the English verb, to temper comes from the Latin verb, temperare which means, "to warm" but it also had other meanings such as "to control", "to moderate", etc. All seem to apply to what must be done to solve the dilemma of the comma.

I mentioned in another post that the Just Intonation version of Shubert's Impromptu sounded the most "in tune" to me and it did. It sounded clearer and brighter. However, I also mentioned instinctively that the Meantone version sounded "warmer". Each had its own appeal. I said that the ET version sounded slightly out of tune in comparison to the other two. For me, it had just a bit of fuzziness that made it sound somewhat less appealing than the other two but in each case, the difference from one to the other was very little.

Those were my own opinions and perceptions, of course. If someone, such as Jeff (and there would be many like him to be sure), is so used and accustomed to the sound of ET and firmly believes that ET is the one and only best compromise to the dilemma of the comma, then I can see why ET and only ET sounds "in tune" to him and of course, many other people.

At one time, I tried to prove that the use of the term, "Perfect Pitch" or "Absolute Pitch" were the wrong way to describe a person's ability to recognize pitch. After all, I considered those two terms to be exclusive of any tolerance or modification whatsoever. However, when I searched the terms in the online dictionary, I found way down on the list that both of them could really mean whatever people thought of them to mean or whatever people commonly used them to mean.

Therefore, if someone says they have or anyone else has Perfect or Absolute Pitch, then they do as far as those people are concerned and the terms mean whatever they think they mean. The same would go for "in tune" or "out of tune".

The same would apply to whether any temperament is "equal" or not. One can hold the position that the very term is as exclusive as the terms "perfect" or "absolute" seem to be and therefore, there is no tolerance. However, it is fairly clear that people were calling any Well Temperament which allowed modulation to any key from any key as far as the people using them were concerned, "Equal" throughout the 19th Century and perhaps before that.

Mathematicians did have a theoretical model for ET, yes and there were monochords that could produce at least some semblance of it but whether anyone really got all intervals perfectly equal at any time anywhere or whether anyone liked their instrument tuned that way is another matter. If they called whichever way they tuned the instrument ET, then it was as far as they were concerned, and if it sounded "in tune" that way to them, then it was as well.

A few pages ago in this thread, people were bringing up the notion that I consider to be preposterous that ET was responsible for the development of all modern "Western" musical styles. I posted a You Tube clip of a Western String band more or less as satire because the players bent their pitches all throughout the music as they do in nearly any ensemble (e.g., violins in a symphony orchestra using vibrato, opera singers bending pitch and using a wide vibrato, Blues singers singing and/or playing in the "cracks", etc.) but nothing sounded "out of tune" to me.

Still, most people I am sure, think in terms of ET as being the theoretical model for all of that playing and singing. Small string ensemble players such as in a string quintet that includes a piano have often said that they find some kind of conflict with a piano tuned in ET. They are forced to conform to the piano as opposed to the way they would naturally intone otherwise, yet they all still think in terms of ET as being "in tune".

So, I am not about to offer my own definition of what "in tune" means to me because I can find quite a wide variety of combinations that sound in tune as I can circumstances that sound out of tune. To paraphrase what a Supreme Court justice once said, "I can't define it but I know it when I hear it."
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1935717 - 08/01/12 09:02 AM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: UnrightTooner]
RonTuner Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1664
Loc: Chicagoland
No, sorry I snapped yesterday... I believe that our language is both general and specific and that we're getting tangled up with the application of one term that is used in both situations. In general terms, most will say a piano is in tune when:

1. The pitch of A4 is 440hz
2. The unisons and octaves sound pure
As to temperament? Maybe in tune only means that the tuner's recipe was successfully applied, there seems to be a huuuuge range here.

Yet there is a also specific application for in tune.

1. Meaning non-tempered, just
2. Beatless
3. Matching perfectly

Our trouble seems to be trying to apply the general to the specific and the reverse. "If General is true, then Specific must also be true" doesn't apply, nor does the reverse... Tuning just 5ths to get them in tune will not often lead to a piano that could be called in tune, except in certain TT (tonal temperament) applications - I guess the intent of the tuner comes into play.... Did they really mean to tune that kind of temperament?

Likewise just because a piano is successfully ET tuned (or any other temperament) doesn't mean that because it is termed in tune in the general sense, we can then alter our specific definition of in tune to describe the specific intervals...

Which leaves us stuck with an in tune piano that is really filled with out of tune intervals to manage the comma - ET is but one solution to deal with how to "out of tune" a piano so that it can be used for performance or practice!

Ron Koval
_________________________
Piano/instrument technician
www.ronkoval.com
@ronkoval

my piano videos:
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=drwoodwind


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#1935727 - 08/01/12 09:32 AM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: UnrightTooner]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7660
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
Originally Posted By: Loren D
Terminology DOES apply. Words mean something. An interval is either in tune or it is tempered. It can't be both. It can "sound" pleasant, and indeed, our ears are used to tempered intervals "sounding" just fine. But we are now on 24 pages of debate when the fact is that any temperament is a deviation from "in tune."


An interval can be either just or tempered without even considering being in-tune. But when you talk about pianos, some intervals (such as octaves) can only be tempered because of iH.



Possibly the language barrier, I see "just" "tempered" and "in tune " as 3 different concepts...
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#1935760 - 08/01/12 10:36 AM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: UnrightTooner]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4943
Loc: Bradford County, PA
All:

Tuning, just intonation, tempering: Are you smarter than a fifth grader?

Imagine you are setting an aural temperament and a buck-toothed 5th grader starts asking you questions:

Whatch doin’?

Uh, tuning your piano.

Well, duh! Why are you playing those two notes and moving that wrench.

I am tuning an interval called a fifth.

How do you know when it is in-tune?

(Now consider the alternatives. You need not post your own answer, but how you answer them can show the difficulty in saying that you are making the piano out-of-tune…)

I don’t want it in-tune, I want it out-of-tune.

That’s stupid, it was out-of-tune before you even came!

OR

We don’t use the word in-tune, we use the word tempered.

So tempered doesn’t means in-tune? That’s stupid, it wasn’t in-tune before you even came!

OR

It is in-tune when it gets louder and softer at a certain speed.

What speed is that?

About once every two seconds.

OR

Beat it kid, you bother me!

laugh laugh laugh
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1935762 - 08/01/12 10:37 AM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: UnrightTooner]
Withindale Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 1941
Loc: Suffolk, England
Originally Posted By: Kamin
I see "just" "tempered" and "in tune " as 3 different concepts...


There is a fourth concept - consonance, including overall consonance.
_________________________
Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 55" upright
Ibach, 1922 49" upright (project piano)

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#1935783 - 08/01/12 11:31 AM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: UnrightTooner]
RonTuner Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1664
Loc: Chicagoland
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
All:

Tuning, just intonation, tempering: Are you smarter than a fifth grader?

Imagine you are setting an aural temperament and a buck-toothed 5th grader starts asking you questions:

Whatch doin’?

Uh, tuning your piano.

Well, duh! Why are you playing those two notes and moving that wrench.

I am tuning an interval called a fifth.

How do you know when it is in-tune?


laugh laugh laugh


Excellent!

Well you see, tuning a piano creates a puzzle for us. Here, watch this - mute off C, E, G# and the octave C so only one string is open. If we start here with C, then tune this E until the beats are gone - can you hear them go faster and slower when I move the lever? Now we can build another on top of the E - Can you hear as the beats go away? Great! Now let's build the last one on top that brings us back to C- hear when the beats go away? Now listen to the two C's together....YUCK! What went wrong? Well that is the puzzle that we have to solve.. to make everything work together in the piano, we have to alter a little bit from where our ears tell us is "right", otherwise we run into big problems later on - Play the octave again...

Generally they'll be happy with that, and learn that it's not as easy as they may think to tune a piano!

Ron Koval
_________________________
Piano/instrument technician
www.ronkoval.com
@ronkoval

my piano videos:
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=drwoodwind


Top
#1935790 - 08/01/12 11:43 AM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: RonTuner]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4943
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: RonTuner


Excellent!

Well you see, tuning a piano creates a puzzle for us. Here, watch this - mute off C, E, G# and the octave C so only one string is open. If we start here with C, then tune this E until the beats are gone - can you hear them go faster and slower when I move the lever? Now we can build another on top of the E - Can you hear as the beats go away? Great! Now let's build the last one on top that brings us back to C- hear when the beats go away? Now listen to the two C's together....YUCK! What went wrong? Well that is the puzzle that we have to solve.. to make everything work together in the piano, we have to alter a little bit from where our ears tell us is "right", otherwise we run into big problems later on - Play the octave again...

Generally they'll be happy with that, and learn that it's not as easy as they may think to tune a piano!

Ron Koval


And what do you say when (not if) the fifth grader says:

"Oh, now I get it! It is like stepping stones. When the stones are equally spaced, things look right. And when the notes are equally spaced the piano is in-tune."
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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