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#1920439 - 06/29/12 07:12 AM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: Maximillyan]
Ed Foote Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 1134
Loc: Tennessee
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Pick what you think sounds best.
Kees

Let the customer is not disappointed in your choice of this when he (she) will be playing music. The most expensive thing on Earth is the wrong choice. Because we should to pay very expensive for it


Greetings,
I must take issue with this. I submit that the most expensive thing on Earth is the fear of making a wrong choice. And this may be the heart of the temperament debate.

With ET, the choice is simply the level of refinement, and we quickly go beyond the customer's discernment, so practically, there is little choice to be made. Stretch the octaves back and forth, and that's about all the flexibility and choice we get.
With WT's, somebody has to make a decision based on an esthetic sense. There is suddenly a chance to be "wrong". This can be scary to those that have little knowledge of the temperaments and what they do. It is easy to see how the security of ET is not only attractive, it is downright comforting and worthy of defense. In this case, it is usual that we have the greatest vehemence found in those with the least amount of knowledge. The less is known, the more caricatured the impression, finally leading to a position of idealizing what is known, ET. This is not new.

My advocacy of well-tempered tuning began with my own attraction to the sound. My pursuit of customers led me to increase its use. I have, for many years, been selling the most expensive tunings (in, at least Tennessee), to professional customers. Most of them have heard the difference and decided that strict ET was as boring as putting an architect's drawing up instead of an oil painting. We cannot use them in the country recording studios, since it is not uncommon for a vocalist to decide to shift a song up or down by a semitone and they don't want anything to change. In the rest of the world, it is a different story.

My point in posting on these boards is to encourage the tuners that are still flexible enough to investigate all alternatives. There is a world of epiphanies out there for customers, and when they have one, (which is the normal result of presenting someone with a Victorian era WT), they are customers for life. You will tune their piano for decades, you will regulate it, you will be inherited by their children, or you will broker the piano when they retire, because you have become special.

So, it is a money thing. A multi-temperament tech will have more to sell than the mono-temperament tuner. That's all there is to it. Fear of censure is the death of creativity, and creativity is at the heart of life.
Regards,

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#1920441 - 06/29/12 07:15 AM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: Sparky McBiff]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4919
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: Sparky McBiff
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
In ET all intervals are equally out of tune. In WT some intervals are less out of tune and some are more out of tune.
Pick what you think sounds best.

Kees


This STUPID thread should have been over right after this post because Kees just nails it. thumb


I am notifying the Moderator about this post. It is deliberately insulting to those that have posted to this Topic.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1920443 - 06/29/12 07:29 AM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: Ed Foote]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4919
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: Ed Foote
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Pick what you think sounds best.
Kees

Let the customer is not disappointed in your choice of this when he (she) will be playing music. The most expensive thing on Earth is the wrong choice. Because we should to pay very expensive for it


Greetings,
I must take issue with this. I submit that the most expensive thing on Earth is the fear of making a wrong choice. And this may be the heart of the temperament debate.

With ET, the choice is simply the level of refinement, and we quickly go beyond the customer's discernment, so practically, there is little choice to be made. Stretch the octaves back and forth, and that's about all the flexibility and choice we get.
With WT's, somebody has to make a decision based on an esthetic sense. There is suddenly a chance to be "wrong". This can be scary to those that have little knowledge of the temperaments and what they do. It is easy to see how the security of ET is not only attractive, it is downright comforting and worthy of defense. In this case, it is usual that we have the greatest vehemence found in those with the least amount of knowledge. The less is known, the more caricatured the impression, finally leading to a position of idealizing what is known, ET. This is not new.

My advocacy of well-tempered tuning began with my own attraction to the sound. My pursuit of customers led me to increase its use. I have, for many years, been selling the most expensive tunings (in, at least Tennessee), to professional customers. Most of them have heard the difference and decided that strict ET was as boring as putting an architect's drawing up instead of an oil painting. We cannot use them in the country recording studios, since it is not uncommon for a vocalist to decide to shift a song up or down by a semitone and they don't want anything to change. In the rest of the world, it is a different story.

My point in posting on these boards is to encourage the tuners that are still flexible enough to investigate all alternatives. There is a world of epiphanies out there for customers, and when they have one, (which is the normal result of presenting someone with a Victorian era WT), they are customers for life. You will tune their piano for decades, you will regulate it, you will be inherited by their children, or you will broker the piano when they retire, because you have become special.

So, it is a money thing. A multi-temperament tech will have more to sell than the mono-temperament tuner. That's all there is to it. Fear of censure is the death of creativity, and creativity is at the heart of life.
Regards,



Very fine post, Mr. Foote:

Do you understand that I am not pursuing the "preference" argument in the ET vs UT debate at all, rather that I am pursuing the argument of what is considered in-tune and not-in-tune?

I do want to comment on the important matter of the customer's discernment. If one tuning sounds better than another, but the reason is not known, then the listener does not know what is in-tune and what is not-in-tune. And after reading about some of the tune-offs, this seems to include many if not most tuners.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1920452 - 06/29/12 08:14 AM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: UnrightTooner]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
Originally Posted By: Sparky McBiff
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
In ET all intervals are equally out of tune. In WT some intervals are less out of tune and some are more out of tune.
Pick what you think sounds best.

Kees


This STUPID thread should have been over right after this post because Kees just nails it. thumb


I am notifying the Moderator about this post. It is deliberately insulting to those that have posted to this Topic.


Oh Jeff, come on. A moderator?? For calling a thread stupid? Geez, whatever.


Edited by Loren D (06/29/12 08:15 AM)
_________________________
DiGiorgi Piano Service (1984-2013)
http://www.digiorgipiano.com

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#1920454 - 06/29/12 08:28 AM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: Loren D]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4919
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: Loren D
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
Originally Posted By: Sparky McBiff
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
In ET all intervals are equally out of tune. In WT some intervals are less out of tune and some are more out of tune.
Pick what you think sounds best.

Kees


This STUPID thread should have been over right after this post because Kees just nails it. thumb


I am notifying the Moderator about this post. It is deliberately insulting to those that have posted to this Topic.


Oh Jeff, come on. A moderator?? For calling a thread stupid? Geez, whatever.


Yeah, and you're next! "The floggings will continue until moral improves." (Just kidding wink )

But, really... Sparky was being deliberately insulting. There is a duplicity that I am trying to get out into the open here. Ruffling feathers won't help.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1920457 - 06/29/12 08:37 AM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Tribbs Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/13/12
Posts: 43
Loc: Madtown
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT

[...]
That seems to be a tradition here. It is either one way or the other. You either believe in what you are doing and stick with it, practice it, continue to serve it up or you do the best you can with whatever you may know. What I know is that ET, as a model and a goal is not worthy of pursuit. The more it is perfected, the less interesting a piano becomes.

I only need to go back to a match up between Virgil Smith and me in 1998 when, in an audience of exclusively piano technicians, the original EBVT prevailed over Virgil's best effort at ET, 4:1. In a re-match the next year in Chicago, there were virtually the same results with Virgil conceding, "I like that temperament."

It does not matter to me how many people liked what I did at either of those demonstrations, whether they understood it or not, whether any of them took it up or not. It also does not matter to me any of the negative comments on here may be. None of them have ever changed what I do nor will they ever. I'll just keep on doing what I do regardless. I will also keep noting virtually on a daily basis that what has been claimed to be ET, believed to be ET, ranted and raved about to be the only way to tune a piano, is actually a backwards version of what I do.


In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time someting like that happened in politics or religion.

Carl Sagan, 1987 CSICOP Keynote Address
_________________________
The People's Cube


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#1920460 - 06/29/12 08:43 AM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: Ed Foote]
Mark Davis Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 658
Originally Posted By: Ed Foote
My advocacy of well-tempered tuning began with my own attraction to the sound. My pursuit of customers led me to increase its use. I have, for many years, been selling the most expensive tunings...

So, it is a money thing. A multi-temperament tech will have more to sell than the mono-temperament tuner. That's all there is to it. Fear of censure is the death of creativity, and creativity is at the heart of life.
Regards,


I appreciate your writings Ed and have learnt much from you, and I trust you are someone who has extensive understanding, expeience and skill in the trade, but your statements above make the whole issue of advocating and tuning WT's blatantly obvious.

I would think that most, if not all who are contributing on this thread, and who are advocating and tuning WT's today, are using an ETD?

If people are going to jump on the band wagon, and promote WT because they think they can charge more for their tunings, when they are using an ETD, then this becomes questionable practice.

How difficult is it really to tune EBVT 3 or any other WT with an ETD? But yet people want to charge more for their tunings? Let the buyer beware!

On the other side, it is obviously necessary to be ready to meet your clients requests/requirements and preferance!





Edited by Mark Davis (06/29/12 08:48 AM)
Edit Reason: a
_________________________
Mark Davis
Piano Tuner & Technician

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#1920465 - 06/29/12 09:06 AM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: UnrightTooner]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
Saying an idea is stupid or a thread is stupid is a valid opinion, certainly entitled to post. Now, saying "insert name here" is stupid is moderator material.
_________________________
DiGiorgi Piano Service (1984-2013)
http://www.digiorgipiano.com

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#1920466 - 06/29/12 09:07 AM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: Mark Davis]
Ed Foote Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 1134
Loc: Tennessee
Originally Posted By: Mark Davis
[quote=Ed Foote] My advocacy of well-tempered tuning began with my own attraction to the sound. My pursuit of customers led me to increase its use. I have, for many years, been selling the most expensive tunings...

So, it is a money thing. A multi-temperament tech will have more to sell than the mono-temperament tuner. That's all there is to it. Fear of censure is the death of creativity, and creativity is at the heart of life.
Regards,


Mark asks:
>>The question is, can you actually tune a piano so that your client accepts your work, and is yor tuning stable?<<

Yes and yes.

>>your statements above make the whole issue of advocating and tuning WT's blatantly obvious.

Not the whole issue, but a big part of it. Whatever I can do to make my work worth more, I will do. If that meant being real fussy for the last 36 years so people trust me, that was reason enough. If it means offering a greater choice of tunings, that is another.

>>If people are going to jump on the band wagon, and promote WT because they think they can charge more for their tunings, when they are using an ETD, then this becomes questionable practice. <<

I don't charge more because of whatever temperament I use, I charge more because I am selling my time, and being a multi-temperament tuner creates, imho, a higher demand for said time. My customers agree, with their loyalty and their cash. I want to be worth as much as possible, and the only way to do that is to set my own prices. I am not selling a cure for cancer, I am a luxury item for many, and a business expense for others. I do not advertise.

<<How difficult is it really to tune EBVT 3 or any other WT with an ETD? But yet people want to charge more for their tunings? Let the buyer beware!<<

It is no more difficult than any other program on the machine. Some additional charges might be incurred if a piano needed to be tuned one and a half times to change the temperament, but that is less common than needing a minor pitch raise first.

>>On the other side, it is obviously necessary to be ready to meet your clients requests/requirements and preferance!

I charge as much as my market will bear,( which is considerably higher than others), and even so, am turning away customers. I think any self-employed person would be a fool not to find out what they are worth, and the only way to do that is to charge. What I am trying to address is how to make the market bear more by offering more. I have seen WT's re-ignite pianists enthusiasm too many times to think it isn't a good business asset.
Plus, I get more out of music in a WT, so that is just another plus, besides the financial aspect.
regards,

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#1920469 - 06/29/12 09:14 AM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: UnrightTooner]
Bill Bremmer RPT Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3194
Loc: Madison, WI USA
"Well when the UT flavour of the month dissapears into obscurity, as all others before it always have, you may want to divert your energy into changing Wisconsins' great cheese. Its been yellow far to long and is really in need of some food colouring or something to spice it up."

Your marketing strategy is working quite well. There was yet another request for a referral from San Francisco in my mailbox this morning! I guess BDB couldn't handle it nor would he be interested. I do know of at least two people who could help the lady, however, right off the top of my head. Are we down to 99.8% yet?
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1920480 - 06/29/12 09:31 AM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: UnrightTooner]
Mark Davis Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 658
Thank you ED.

I deleted the following sentence, "The question is, can you actually tune a piano so that your client accepts your work, and is yor tuning stable?", for the reason that it was not aimed at you but a statement in general.

I do not question your ability to tune. I know of your experience and ability to tune and trust it to be so.

However, from what I understand, there are folks that charge more for tuning a WT than for an ET whilst using an ETD to accomplish either tuning. If this is to be the case, then this is what I am saying is questionable.

Yes, if one can cut out a niche for oneself honestly and one is an expert and capable and one charges more than others, then fine by all means, do so.
_________________________
Mark Davis
Piano Tuner & Technician

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#1920490 - 06/29/12 09:47 AM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: UnrightTooner]
Mark Davis Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 658
Ok, I'll come right out and say it, I have not been asked to tune a WT for anyone yet, but if so, I am ready.

Now, if someone does ask me to tune a WT for them and I do so, using an ETD, should I charge them more for it?
_________________________
Mark Davis
Piano Tuner & Technician

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#1920494 - 06/29/12 09:56 AM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: Mark Davis]
Ed Foote Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 1134
Loc: Tennessee
Originally Posted By: Mark Davis
Ok, I'll come right out and say it, I have not been asked to tune a WT for anyone yet, but if so, I am ready.

Now, if someone does ask me to tune a WT for them and I do so, using an ETD, should I charge them more for it?


I don't know what you should do, your price and quality of work will tell you what the optimum course is, (albeit in hindsight). It matters not how the tuning is accomplished. For price, I think in terms of time, so if it takes longer, I charge more. I was led to understand that the S&S factory charged $700 to tune one of their concert pianos in a WT, stating that it would take four tunings to change and change back. That might be a case of price depending on something other than the work...


Edited by Ed Foote (06/29/12 09:57 AM)

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#1920511 - 06/29/12 10:45 AM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: Ed Foote]
Mark Davis Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 658
Originally Posted By: Ed Foote
It matters not how the tuning is accomplished. For price, I think in terms of time, so if it takes longer, I charge more.


That's helpful. I better learn to put this into practice.

Thanks Ed
_________________________
Mark Davis
Piano Tuner & Technician

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#1920515 - 06/29/12 10:50 AM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: Mark Davis]
RonTuner Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1652
Loc: Chicagoland
Originally Posted By: Mark Davis
Ok, I'll come right out and say it, I have not been asked to tune a WT for anyone yet, but if so, I am ready.



Wait, wait a minute... I hear this statement so often that I often preface my classes with the question:

"How often in all your years of tuning have you been requested to tune ET by name?" With more tonal tunings out there,and more people browsing the internet, I have been asked twice in 30 years now to tune in ET...

Similar to the case of piano regulation and voicing it falls to the technician to educate the consumer. What we have here is similar to a decree that ET is the best, no need to even show clients that there are other options...

Ron Koval
_________________________
Piano/instrument technician
www.ronkoval.com
@ronkoval

my piano videos:
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=drwoodwind


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#1920520 - 06/29/12 10:57 AM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: RonTuner]
Bill Bremmer RPT Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3194
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: RonTuner
What we have here is similar to a decree that ET is the best, no need to even show clients that there are other options...

Ron Koval


According to one poster, there was an election held and ET won that election.

If that is true, what year was that election held? Which temperament was defeated? Which temperaments were in the primary election? Where did the voters go to cast their ballots? How much money was put into the campaigns on both sides of the issue? What was the percentage of voter turnout? Was it 99.9%?
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1920528 - 06/29/12 11:06 AM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: UnrightTooner]
Mark Davis Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 658
No, I certainly am not saying ET is best. I just made a staement of fact. Now, If my clients are satisfied with my tuning, I am fortunate.

Now, if my clients are happy with ET, which I do tune in general, why should I tune anything else and or advocate anything else?

On the other side, what happens if I do advocate a WT and my client is unhappy with it, who is going to come and change the tuning back to what they do like? Me? And what shall I charge my client for doing this? or should I just take it on the chin? But, I suppose that only a certain segment of the market may like and want WT tunings, and that is fine, give to them what they want! Surely, with ETD's, it is as easy as that!? Fortunately!
_________________________
Mark Davis
Piano Tuner & Technician

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#1920537 - 06/29/12 11:17 AM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: UnrightTooner]
Mark Davis Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 658
Maybe a question should be put to the pianist forum and see what the consensus will be? The consensus may just be, "Just tune my piano as best as you can, so it sounds as good as it can and so I will be happy with what you have done and be glad to pay you for your time and work!"

Concert tunings is a different ball game, as much as I can tell. But, even then, I think the pianists repetoire may have something to do with what temprament one tunes and also, once again the particular pianists preferance? It may be a certain WT or it may be ET. If you tune EBVT 3 on the day and it does not fit the repetoire or the pianist wanted ET or something else, well you in for it now!
_________________________
Mark Davis
Piano Tuner & Technician

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#1920553 - 06/29/12 11:40 AM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: RonTuner]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4919
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: RonTuner
.....

"How often in all your years of tuning have you been requested to tune ET by name?"

.....


If everyone thought as you do, Ron, I would have to be careful at the grocery store. I might get goat milk or buffalo milk when I least expect it!
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1920556 - 06/29/12 11:43 AM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: UnrightTooner]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
Well, if nobody has heard of it and if nobody over there has heard a piano tuned in either EBVT III, then how can any reasonable judgement be made? A piano would have to be tuned in it for them to play on and then, they could make a reasonable judgement based on that. Over time, that is exactly what has been taking place. Little by little, technicians are tuning, using EBVT III and little by little, clients are liking EBVT III. Not all clients obviously, because taste and preference is just that. A preference. Yet, some are choosing the EBVT III.

As I mentioned in another thread, if you walked into a bar and asked everyone in there "how do you tune a piano?" Not one person in that bar could answer the question. The answer you would get would be jokes about piano tuners.

Doing an excellent tuning on a piano is an art. It takes time, it takes talent, it takes a lot of learning, it takes an excellent ear, it takes a lot of experience. Almost ALL piano tuners think their tuning sounds great. But, as Chris aptly pointed out, most tuners here are afraid to post their tunings. Only a few of "us" have done so. However, posting something that may be off, is and will be, a learning experience if that person cares to ask for help or advice if something is not right like unison's for example.

What a pianist plays or prefers is entirely up to them just as is the color of your house is up to you. If they/you don't like it, change is required.

On the other hand, when GRM posted a bunch of tunings, some in ET come in EBVT III and then challenged all of us to choose which was which, those that complained about it the most, to my knowledge, didn't even bother to "guess" which was which at all. More than likely, because they couldn't tell which was which. I'll admit, that it was difficult to tell just from listening to it.
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#1920571 - 06/29/12 12:00 PM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: Mark Davis]
Minnesota Marty Online   content

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7285
Loc: Rochester MN
Mark,

You are thinking as a pianist! Being a pianist, some thoughts come to mind.

The vast number of piano players do hear the difference between an intune piano and one that needs tuning. Sounding good is all that matters. The nuts, bolts, whys, and wherefores are immaterial.

A highly skilled player will, most often, have a highly developed ear. If they are conservatory trained, they will understand temperament and may have their own preference. They hear and assess the vibrancy of sound that any given piano produces.

Performance level pianists are very aware of temperaments and how they effect the tonality of any given key signature. Many can be very specific and Peter Serkin comes to mind. The greatest of the world's conservatories and academies spend a great deal of time on the matter, even for fixed pitched instrument players.

For concert tunings, always make an attempt to discuss the matter first, with the pianist, so you won't be 'in for it!' ;-)
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#1920580 - 06/29/12 12:20 PM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: Minnesota Marty]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21431
Loc: Oakland
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Mark,
...
A highly skilled player will, most often, have a highly developed ear. If they are conservatory trained, they will understand temperament and may have their own preference. They hear and assess the vibrancy of sound that any given piano produces.
...


I was just talking to a Juilliard-trained pianist about this about a month ago. She had a 10 year old Bösendorfer, which, after I tuned it, sounded lousy in her room. With her permission, I did some light voicing to it to give an idea of what it should sound like. She said that they taught her nothing about the mechanics of pianos and their maintenance at Juilliard. If this is the standard at what is considered to be one of the top conservatories in the nation, I doubt it is much different elsewhere. Can you name any conservatories that do teach their students about their instruments?
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#1920589 - 06/29/12 12:37 PM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: UnrightTooner]
Withindale Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 1938
Loc: Suffolk, England
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
Very fine post, Mr. Foote:

Do you understand that ... I am pursuing the argument of what is considered in-tune and not-in-tune?

What "in-tune" means is a very good question and worth a topic in its own right.

There is a good argument for saying a piano with a well executed aurally refined ET will be in tune with itself.

It seems there is an equally good argument for saying a piano with a well executed aurally refined UT will be more in tune with the music, but that begs the question of which music.

Leaving Bach's temperament for the Well Tempered Clavier aside, is anyone able to say why certain types of UT are more in tune with the music of Beethoven, Mendelssohn, Chopin and their contemporaries, as Ed Foote has said several times?

Originally Posted By: Ed Foote
The vast majority of music is played in the four or five keys with the least number of accidentals. Shaping the piano's intonation to boost the harmony that is actually being made makes a large difference in how much dissonance (tempering) is present in the music, as well as providing a palette of tempering that seems to correlate to many composer's harmonic structuring of their music.


Edited by Withindale (06/29/12 01:30 PM)
Edit Reason: Quoted Ed Foote
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#1920599 - 06/29/12 01:03 PM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: BDB]
Minnesota Marty Online   content

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7285
Loc: Rochester MN
BDB,

My posting was a reply to Mark about pianists knowledge of, and appreciation for, temperament. It mentioned nothing about voicing or regulation. To the best of my knowledge, piano technology is not offered as a part of an applied performance curriculum.

Music schools focus on music and not on the mechanical side of any given instrument. One would not assume that James Galway knows how to re-pad his flute or adjust the spring tension.
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#1920603 - 06/29/12 01:05 PM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: UnrightTooner]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4187
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada

Originally Posted By: Withindale

Leaving Bach's temperament for the Well Tempered Clavier aside, is anyone able to say why certain types of UT are more in tune with the music of Beethoven, Mendelssohn, Chopin and their contemporaries, as Ed Foote has said several times?



Answers to some of what you are asking can be found in this short video.

I posted this the other day when a fellow asked about tuning in A major

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfK3blfKE04

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#1920607 - 06/29/12 01:11 PM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: Withindale]
Minnesota Marty Online   content

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7285
Loc: Rochester MN
Ian,

You are smack dab in the middle of Musicology. I doubt there are any scholarly musicologists in the forum. You could certainly find volumes written on that very subject.
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#1920635 - 06/29/12 02:07 PM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: Jerry Groot RPT]
Mark Davis Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 658
Originally Posted By: Jerry Groot RPT
Well, if nobody has heard of it and if nobody over there has heard a piano tuned in either EBVT III, then how can any reasonable judgement be made? A piano would have to be tuned in it for them to play on and then, they could make a reasonable judgement based on that. Over time, that is exactly what has been taking place. Little by little, technicians are tuning, using EBVT III and little by little, clients are liking EBVT III. Not all clients obviously, because taste and preference is just that. A preference. Yet, some are choosing the EBVT III.


I used to tune for a very accomplished piansit, who not only played very well (could have been a concert pianist, but went in another direction) and was a walking encyclopedia on music and also could tune pianos himself and also knew all about different tempraments, and not once did he ask for a WT. Now, I do not tune for him anymore for the reason that I left the company I was working for to go independant and he is bound to use them from a contractual point. But, anyway, if someone asks for a WT, I trust I am ready and I am certainly willing to accomodate!

Apart from EBVT 3 there is whole lot more out there. Why harp on one temprament only?

Originally Posted By: Jerry Groot RPT
Doing an excellent tuning on a piano is an art. It takes time, it takes talent, it takes a lot of learning, it takes an excellent ear, it takes a lot of experience.


Something we agree on.

Originally Posted By: Jerry Groot RPT
But, as Chris aptly pointed out, most tuners here are afraid to post their tunings. Only a few of "us" have done so.


Someone who is confident of his own work and knows what they are doing does not need to post anything. What for? Let's go and find out why many of the tuning greats of today don't post here or contribute here(though there are a hanful of some who do post here)? Also, on top of it all, Dan Levitan, who is an accomplished tuner and has written much on the subject and is an aural only tuner (as much as I know) had his work critized, instead of understood in context and appreciated for his contribution. There is so much more to tuning than harping on one string and having an attitude of "you got to proove yourself to me." No, I do not need to proove myself to you, only to my clients. Period!

Originally Posted By: Jerry Groot RPT
What a pianist plays or prefers is entirely up to them just as is the color of your house is up to you. If they/you don't like it, change is required.


I think that I have said something along the same lines on more than one occasion. But, if my client is happy with what I am tuning, why change? Hey, my client likes plain chocolate ice cream. Just imagine what he will say to me if I tell him he is narrow and plain and that he must eat orange mint ice cream with fudge mousse drops?

I should hope and think that an accomplished pianist will ask for another temprament and I hope that who ever is tuning for them is ready to accomomodate.

Originally Posted By: Jerry Groot RPT
On the other hand, when GRM posted a bunch of tunings, some in ET come in EBVT III and then challenged all of us to choose which was which, those that complained about it the most, to my knowledge, didn't even bother to "guess" which was which at all. More than likely, because they couldn't tell which was which. I'll admit, that it was difficult to tell just from listening to it.


Well, who cares really? Maybe a few? Maybe many? Well, for those who do care, carry on doing what you think you need to do and what your preferance is. Don't seek to make other peoples lives a misery just because you believe you are right and that there is no other way of doing something. Let's put things into perspective. All of us that contribute on this forum, are actually a very small representative of the piano tuning/tech community. Let's not pretend we speak for them. To so portray oneself as the final authority on the matter and command allegiance and submission is absolutely ridiculous and very worrying!





Edited by Mark Davis (06/29/12 02:12 PM)
Edit Reason: 1
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#1920644 - 06/29/12 02:50 PM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: UnrightTooner]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4187
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada


Originally Posted By: Jerry Groot RPT
On the other hand, when GRM posted a bunch of tunings, some in ET come in EBVT III and then challenged all of us to choose which was which, those that complained about it the most, to my knowledge, didn't even bother to "guess" which was which at all. More than likely, because they couldn't tell which was which. I'll admit, that it was difficult to tell just from listening to it.


Originally Posted By: Mark Davis
Well, who cares really? Maybe a few? Maybe many? Well, for those who do care, carry on doing what you think you need to do and what your preferance is. Don't seek to make other peoples lives a misery just because you believe you are right and that there is no other way of doing something. Let's put things into perspective. All of us that contribute on this forum, are actually a very small representative of the piano tuning/tech community. Let's not pretend we speak for them. To so portray oneself as the final authority on the matter and command allegiance and submission is absolutely ridiculous and very worrying!


Further to this part, a couple of us observed that the ET tunings were bit downloading at a slower rate than the EBVT tunings which would change the quality of what one hears…..

We never brought this up because of your important point. Who really cares…. Like I stated earlier this entire matter is a storm in a teacup.
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www.silverwoodpianos.com
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#1920647 - 06/29/12 02:57 PM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: UnrightTooner]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
Here's some work I did on a Yamaha G3 today. I just played chromatic triads (each with a bass note) starting from C, going up an octave to the next C. I thought a key-by-key comparison including all 12 keys would be good.

http://soundcloud.com/ldigiorgi/triads-on-a-piano-tuned-in

I did some tweaking after I recorded this, but mainly just cleaning up unisons, etc., so I didn't feel like rerecording.

Hearing the smoothness of some keys immediately followed by the "spiciness" of others is an interesting thing to hear.

*edit* Wasn't paying attention, and posted this in the wrong thread! I'm posting it again over in the EBVT thread. If you want to comment there, that might be better so as not to hijack the ET thread.


Edited by Loren D (06/29/12 03:06 PM)
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#1920648 - 06/29/12 03:03 PM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: UnrightTooner]
Mark Davis Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 658
Loren, is this an aural or ETD tuning?
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