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#1919548 - 06/27/12 02:05 PM ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4954
Loc: Bradford County, PA
If you prefer anything other than ET, you prefer a piano that sounds out-of-tune.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1919553 - 06/27/12 02:13 PM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: UnrightTooner]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4224
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada


I was thinking about posting this as a topic three days ago, then got busy and forgot. Same thing as the other thread in reverse….well….
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
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"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1919564 - 06/27/12 02:33 PM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4954
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: Silverwood Pianos


I was thinking about posting this as a topic three days ago, then got busy and forgot. Same thing as the other thread in reverse….well….


laugh laugh laugh
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1919570 - 06/27/12 02:38 PM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: UnrightTooner]
Ed Foote Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 1228
Loc: Tennessee
not to my customers!

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#1919582 - 06/27/12 03:10 PM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: UnrightTooner]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
Not to this pianist!
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#1919588 - 06/27/12 03:24 PM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: UnrightTooner]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4224
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
Originally Posted By: Silverwood Pianos

I was thinking about posting this as a topic three days ago, then got busy and forgot. Same thing as the other thread in reverse….well….

laugh laugh laugh


Yep sharp like a butter knife....don't you love it?
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1919609 - 06/27/12 04:33 PM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
Yep - it appears that your ears are as sharp as a butter knife. Clever reply there fella.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#1919612 - 06/27/12 04:37 PM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: UnrightTooner]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
Hey, if you like your music in black and white, go for it. smile
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DiGiorgi Piano Service (1984-2013)
http://www.digiorgipiano.com

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#1919626 - 06/27/12 05:19 PM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: Loren D]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4224
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
Originally Posted By: Loren D
Hey, if you like your music in black and white, go for it. smile


When I work for clients how I like my music is irrelevant. They make the choice and I fulfill the need.

Give them what they pay for I say…
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1919641 - 06/27/12 05:43 PM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: UnrightTooner]
beethoven986 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 3360
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
If you prefer anything other than ET, you prefer a piano that sounds out-of-tune.



It's fine if you don't like anything except ET, but this statement is horribly inaccurate, and ignorant. Keyboards were not tuned to equal temperament until the 20th century; this has been well-researched by the musicologists, and has been written about in various scholarly journals and other monographs. Furthermore, there are high profile artists on the international circuit who have their pianos tuned to unequal temperament; case-in-point is Peter Serkin, who occasionally has his piano tuned to seventh comma meantone. Whether you like it or not, the legitimacy of unequal temperaments is indisputable.
_________________________
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M.Mus. Piano Performance & Literature 2011
PTG Associate Member
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#1919818 - 06/28/12 12:19 AM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: UnrightTooner]
RonTuner Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1674
Loc: Chicagoland
ET is the tuning that is out of tune all over. It's just that it sounds more equally out of tune when you check chromatic intervals...

Ron Koval
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www.ronkoval.com
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my piano videos:
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#1919820 - 06/28/12 12:26 AM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: RonTuner]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21818
Loc: Oakland
Originally Posted By: RonTuner
ET is the tuning that is out of tune all over. It's just that it sounds more equally out of tune when you check chromatic intervals...

Ron Koval


Most temperaments are out of tune all over.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#1919920 - 06/28/12 06:59 AM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: BDB]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: BDB
Originally Posted By: RonTuner
ET is the tuning that is out of tune all over. It's just that it sounds more equally out of tune when you check chromatic intervals...

Ron Koval


Most temperaments are out of tune all over.


Yes, but only equal temperament is equally out of tune everywhere.
_________________________
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http://www.digiorgipiano.com

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#1919927 - 06/28/12 07:22 AM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: RonTuner]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4954
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: RonTuner
ET is the tuning that is out of tune all over. It's just that it sounds more equally out of tune when you check chromatic intervals...

Ron Koval


Ron, you are on the right track. Any UT has some things that sound differently tuned than others -purposefully different. And what do you call something that sounds differently tuned compared to something else? Out-of-tune!

But I disagree that an ET tuning is "out of tune all over." It certainly doesn't sound that way and it is definitely not done to purposefully sound out of tune as UTs are. Even if someone tries to muddle the subject with iH, the 5ths or 12ths or 19ths, depending on the preferred stretch, can be made to be in-tune, so not everything is out of tune. It is as weak an argument against ET as the irrational number argument.

But this is all beside the point. The point is that UTs are purposely made to sound differently tuned in different keys. ET is not.

And if anyone takes offense to this, then you are not really secure in your preference for UTs. It is all right with me if you prefer something that sounds out-of-tune, even purposefully. But when I hear of this nonsense of ET being out-of-tune, but UTs being in-tune, I conclude they are trying to make "double-speak" work.

Well, it is an election year...
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1919938 - 06/28/12 07:44 AM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: UnrightTooner]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
Originally Posted By: RonTuner
ET is the tuning that is out of tune all over. It's just that it sounds more equally out of tune when you check chromatic intervals...

Ron Koval


Ron, you are on the right track. Any UT has some things that sound differently tuned than others -purposefully different. And what do you call something that sounds differently tuned compared to something else? Out-of-tune!


Ever see the film clip where there is a chair on the floor and a chair on the ceiling also? Two guys walk in, one on the floor and one on the ceiling, and they both take a seat. The guy on the floor looks up and tells the guy on the ceiling that he's upside down. The guy on the ceiling says "No I'm not, you are."

Quote:

But I disagree that an ET tuning is "out of tune all over." It certainly doesn't sound that way and it is definitely not done to purposefully sound out of tune as UTs are. Even if someone tries to muddle the subject with iH, the 5ths or 12ths or 19ths, depending on the preferred stretch, can be made to be in-tune, so not everything is out of tune. It is as weak an argument against ET as the irrational number argument.


Equal temperament, by definition and theory and practice, is a grand compromise. But you already know that.

Quote:
But this is all beside the point. The point is that UTs are purposely made to sound differently tuned in different keys. ET is not.


Now we're getting somewhere! Yes, UT's give personalities back to the keys. ET is a sort of faceless "let's not make waves" kind of thing. Maybe we could call it the first politically correct temperament that doesn't make one key sound better than another, since that wouldn't be fair? smile

Quote:
And if anyone takes offense to this, then you are not really secure in your preference for UTs. It is all right with me if you prefer something that sounds out-of-tune, even purposefully. But when I hear of this nonsense of ET being out-of-tune, but UTs being in-tune, I conclude they are trying to make "double-speak" work.


Whatever floats your boat, but you just said that some keys in a UT sound more in tune than the same keys in ET, didn't you?

But yeah Ron is right, in ET every key is equally out of tune.
_________________________
DiGiorgi Piano Service (1984-2013)
http://www.digiorgipiano.com

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#1919943 - 06/28/12 07:50 AM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: UnrightTooner]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4954
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Loren:

You are practicing the "double-speak" I mentioned.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1919945 - 06/28/12 07:52 AM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: UnrightTooner]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
Loren:

You are practicing the "double-speak" I mentioned.


That's exactly the answer I would expect when no other answer is available!
_________________________
DiGiorgi Piano Service (1984-2013)
http://www.digiorgipiano.com

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#1919947 - 06/28/12 07:54 AM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: UnrightTooner]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
Let me ask, Jeff. In ET a C-E third is stretched more than in EBVT. Here's a case where the 3rd is purer than its ET counterpart. So for that interval, which one sounds more "in tune?"

"I'm not upside down, you are." The analogy works.
_________________________
DiGiorgi Piano Service (1984-2013)
http://www.digiorgipiano.com

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#1919960 - 06/28/12 08:24 AM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: Loren D]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4954
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: Loren D
Let me ask, Jeff. In ET a C-E third is stretched more than in EBVT. Here's a case where the 3rd is purer than its ET counterpart. So for that interval, which one sounds more "in tune?"

"I'm not upside down, you are." The analogy works.


The EBVT C-E M3 sounds differently tuned than other M3s in EBVT - on purpose. You can try (as Ron has previously) to argue that the same thing happens in ET because the beatrates progress. But it doesn't hold much water. As I alluded before, as soon as beat rates are brought in, 5ths, 12ths and 19ths can be brought in. And the differences between RBIs mean little when compared to the differences in SBIs.

The analogy does not work because the ties the guys are wearing both point the same way!
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1919968 - 06/28/12 08:33 AM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: UnrightTooner]
Tribbs Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/13/12
Posts: 43
Loc: Madtown
OH, oh my! You, you mean B B Bach, B B Beethoven, MMMozart, CCChopin, they were all wrong???
_________________________
The People's Cube


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#1919969 - 06/28/12 08:35 AM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: Tribbs]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: Tribbs
OH, oh my! You, you mean B B Bach, B B Beethoven, MMMozart, CCChopin, they were all wrong???


I know! Let's tell them!
_________________________
DiGiorgi Piano Service (1984-2013)
http://www.digiorgipiano.com

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#1919972 - 06/28/12 08:36 AM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: UnrightTooner]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
Originally Posted By: Loren D
Let me ask, Jeff. In ET a C-E third is stretched more than in EBVT. Here's a case where the 3rd is purer than its ET counterpart. So for that interval, which one sounds more "in tune?"

"I'm not upside down, you are." The analogy works.


The EBVT C-E M3 sounds differently tuned than other M3s in EBVT - on purpose. You can try (as Ron has previously) to argue that the same thing happens in ET because the beatrates progress. But it doesn't hold much water. As I alluded before, as soon as beat rates are brought in, 5ths, 12ths and 19ths can be brought in. And the differences between RBIs mean little when compared to the differences in SBIs.

The analogy does not work because the ties the guys are wearing both point the same way!



The ties aren't pointing the same way. The ceiling is the top guy's "floor." Which one of them is upside down? I guess it matters from what perspective, right?

Still Jeff, I'll try again. You have two identical major thirds. One beats at 7bps, the other at say 11-12. Which one is more "in tune?"
_________________________
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#1919984 - 06/28/12 09:02 AM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: UnrightTooner]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2481
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Loren, the nice thing about ET is that we dont need to use the criteria "..so for that interval...". I prefer a visual anology to the ET vs UT arguement. Dissonance is like garbage strewn on a huge otherwise pristine beach. ET has a same amount of garbage as UT, but spread out over the whole beach equally spaced far enough apart that you only see a small fragment from any one spot you stand. UT has the same amount of garbage but clumped in less piles, that are larger and more visable from anywhgere you stand.

The following photo shows a beach that has small piles of garbage all over it. Because of the perspective, the majority of it is unoticed except for the peice in the foreground. UT that has an appropriate piece of music selected for it that favours the better intervals is like this picture with the upper portion cropped out for viewing. An UT that has music played in a less favourable key will require the viewer to look at the cropped out lower portion of the photo. Except for the sand, the rest of the beach is lost in the garbage.

ET would be the equivalant of photographing this beach from a position where no highly visable garbage is close enough or large enough to be really noticed. UT followers will always have to either crop the photo (select music in appropriate keys) or find some mystical way to remove the lower portion from their sight.
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#1919994 - 06/28/12 09:27 AM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: Tribbs]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4954
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: Tribbs
OH, oh my! You, you mean B B Bach, B B Beethoven, MMMozart, CCChopin, they were all wrong???


No, they weren't "wrong". Neither are you or I. Some people just prefer a piano that sounds out-of-tune.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

Top
#1920000 - 06/28/12 09:39 AM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: Loren D]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4954
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: Loren D
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
Originally Posted By: Loren D
Let me ask, Jeff. In ET a C-E third is stretched more than in EBVT. Here's a case where the 3rd is purer than its ET counterpart. So for that interval, which one sounds more "in tune?"

"I'm not upside down, you are." The analogy works.


The EBVT C-E M3 sounds differently tuned than other M3s in EBVT - on purpose. You can try (as Ron has previously) to argue that the same thing happens in ET because the beatrates progress. But it doesn't hold much water. As I alluded before, as soon as beat rates are brought in, 5ths, 12ths and 19ths can be brought in. And the differences between RBIs mean little when compared to the differences in SBIs.

The analogy does not work because the ties the guys are wearing both point the same way!



The ties aren't pointing the same way. The ceiling is the top guy's "floor." Which one of them is upside down? I guess it matters from what perspective, right?

Still Jeff, I'll try again. You have two identical major thirds. One beats at 7bps, the other at say 11-12. Which one is more "in tune?"


Your argument is based on the idea of relative correctness, in other words: "double-speak".

As to your example, assuming we are talking about C4-E4, both the 7bps and the 11bps M3s are out-of-tune compared to a just M3. However, the 11bps M3 will be in-tune with all the other M3s in ET but the 7bps M3 cannot be regardless of how the rest of the M3s are tuned. Again if it is UT it is out-of-tune.

Now here is a question for you. Why does it bother you that I say UT is out-of-tune? You can't have your cake and eat it too. Consider the Beatles song "Day Tripper." Of course the guitar is out-of-tune. It is supposed to be. That is why the song sounds like it does. So what?
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1920005 - 06/28/12 09:47 AM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: UnrightTooner]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4954
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Emmery:

I respectfully disagree.

I do not think ET on a piano needs to be like distributing the trash evenly so that it is not noticed. I believe that the RBIs are not nearly as important as us tuners think they are. They mostly beat too fast to mean much. But the SBIs are another story. And let's include unisons and octaves in with the SBIs. And then let's include the effects of iH on SBIs. The result with a reasonable stretch are pure sounding 5ths, octaves, 12ths, double octaves, etc. And, oddly, the fourths sound extremely similar to each other, too. That's what makes a piano sound in-tune. And, I believe, is only possible with ET.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1920011 - 06/28/12 09:54 AM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: UnrightTooner]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4954
Loc: Bradford County, PA
All:

I remember reading a commentary by J. Vernon McGee. He recalled having dinner with someone that insisted that there was always more than one way of looking at things. And that how you looked at them determined thier value. The insistence fell apart when it was pointed out that such a demand meant that there was only one way to look at looking at things, uh, that being that there was always more than one way to look at things???? The argument is not self-supporting.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1920015 - 06/28/12 10:13 AM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: Loren D]
Mark R. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 2069
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
Originally Posted By: Loren D
Equal temperament, by definition and theory and practice, is a grand compromise.


While UT, I venture, is a rather more crude compromise.

By definition, theory and practice, at least if you want to use all twelve keys, three M3s have to make up an octave and twelve 5ths have to make up 7 octaves - irrespective of which temperament you use. If you make one M3 purer, at least one of its partners in the octave has to give. If you make some 5ths purer, others in the circle have to give.

At least ET tries to distribute this irreconcilability as homogeneously as possible. To me, there is a sense of coherence (if not perfection) in that, which an UT can never achieve.

So it boggles my mind how some UT proponents can write that "in ET, everything is out of tune", and at the same time, they praise an UT for the "spice and color" of its remote keys - while these are more "out of tune" than ET!

If these proponents use 13.7 cents as a yardstick for an "out of tune" M3, then by their own standards, half the keys of well temperaments are not spicy, they are badly out of tune.

I agree with Jeff, lots of double speak here...
_________________________
Autodidact interested in piano technology.
LinkedIn profile
1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

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#1920036 - 06/28/12 10:52 AM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: UnrightTooner]
Jbyron Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/17/10
Posts: 518
Loc: USA
I've always preferred ET. Everything is nice ,even, organized, precise. There's no guess work. When done well, it's able to accommodate any music imaginable on the piano by any player who plays it.

It really comes down to tuning stability and accuracy and the music produced by the pianist.
_________________________
Tuner-Technician



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#1920078 - 06/28/12 11:55 AM Re: ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it [Re: Mark R.]
Ed Foote Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 1228
Loc: Tennessee
Greetings,
I find it amazing that people can only hear a third as "in-tune" if it is a particular distance from Just, and only that distance!
I find it amazing that people can tolerate an unrelenting buzz of tempering that accompanies the sound of ET. (It has its own sound, distinguishable from other temperaments, to those that have listened long enough to recognize it).


>>At least ET tries to distribute this irreconcilability as homogeneously as possible. To me, there is a sense of coherence (if not perfection) in that, which an UT can never achieve.<<

This is at the crux of it all. To some homogeneous is the goal, to others, it is a barren, sterile, harmonic wasteland. It is a simplified sound, not nearly as complex as a WT.
To my ear, pianos in ET sound like artificial pianos. I think this is because the parameter upon which ET is formed has nothing to do with the natural human attraction for consonance, rather, it is simply the mathematical solution to the problem of us only having 10 fingers and an octave that wants to be divided into 19 notes. I am amazed that people can accept that the sensual quality of musical intervals is being determined by mathematical solutions, instead of emotional ones.
Dissonance is not bad or good. Those are value judgements that have to be made inre how it is used to created emotional responses. The response I see from the ET proponents is that lack of equality is bad, whereas, in music, equality impresses me as bland and lifeless. Once understood, it becomes rather clear that the great composers of the Classical age were very aware of the normal harmonic resources available in the circulating temperament of the period.
Regards,

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11/25/14 03:21 PM
Korg SP250 internal speakers
by Kai C
11/25/14 03:12 PM
Removing scratches from black piano
by pinkfloydhomer
11/25/14 02:12 PM
Pain at the shinbone/tibia
by Johan B
11/25/14 02:04 PM
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