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#1919653 - 06/27/12 06:10 PM N2 weakness. Model or general design issue?
foxtrot Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/27/12
Posts: 18
Hi. I have a Yamaha N2 AvantGrand which is quite a fantastic object, and which I enjoy a lot playing.

However, I found it is sometimes behaving bizarrely. I found out that (even just after turning the piano on) I press and hold the 2 lowest possible white keys (A and B), and then press other keys in the middle of the range one after another such as C D E F G A B C while keeping the 2 lowest keys pressed, then some random half of the mid range keys will not respond at all.

This is a problem for me, because this means there might be some deeper problem with my piano.

I would like to know if others having an N2 see the same behaviour. A reseller reported that his display piano had the same issue, so I am suddenly wondering if it is a general issue for all N2s.


Edited by foxtrot (06/27/12 06:13 PM)

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#1919672 - 06/27/12 06:45 PM Re: N2 weakness. Model or general design issue? [Re: foxtrot]
Dave Horne Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5282
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
Well, I've noticed that if I stick a metal fork in an electrical outlet while standing with one foot in a slightly damped spot, the feeling of extreme burning travels through my body; to be honest, this only happens with a metal fork, not plastic forks.

Is this a general issue for metal forks? Am I alone with this? Should I return the fork back to the forkin' factory?

Please advise.
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#1919678 - 06/27/12 06:58 PM Re: N2 weakness. Model or general design issue? [Re: Dave Horne]
PianoWorksATL Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/19/09
Posts: 2746
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Originally Posted By: Dave Horne
Well, I've noticed that if I stick a metal fork in an electrical outlet while standing with one foot in a slightly damped spot, the feeling of extreme burning travels through my body; to be honest, this only happens with a metal fork, not plastic forks.

Is this a general issue for metal forks? Am I alone with this? Should I return the fork back to the forkin' factory?

Please advise.
laugh bah ha
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#1919680 - 06/27/12 06:59 PM Re: N2 weakness. Model or general design issue? [Re: foxtrot]
36251 Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/12/10
Posts: 761
I'm not sure if this is what you are talking about but I noticed that if i try to play notes before the piano is on, some notes don't play. My solution was to turn on and not touch keys until it boots up. You can hear when the amps are on.

I did have this great suit once and there was this thread. Instead of cutting with a knife I decided to just pull the thread and see what happens. Suit was ruined.
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AG N2, CP4, GK MK & MP

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#1919684 - 06/27/12 07:07 PM Re: N2 weakness. Model or general design issue? [Re: foxtrot]
Dave Horne Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5282
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
If the original poster read the owner's manual he would have learned that playing notes before the piano's operating system was completely loaded would have resulted in this behavior.

I'm beginning to think that Darwin was in fact wrong.
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#1919685 - 06/27/12 07:13 PM Re: N2 weakness. Model or general design issue? [Re: foxtrot]
EssBrace Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2423
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
How strange...

I've tried it on my N3 and the OP is right. You hold the two lowest keys and the notes in the octave above middle C randomly do not sound - and it is completely random. It seems to be only that octave.

The piano hadn't just been switched on because I leave mine on permanently.

Very odd.

That said, I've never noticed anything untoward when playing the piano.

Steve
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Yamaha CP1

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#1919686 - 06/27/12 07:14 PM Re: N2 weakness. Model or general design issue? [Re: 36251]
foxtrot Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/27/12
Posts: 18
Mh. I am serious about what I wrote. Of course I wait until the piano is booted up and I do not try to mess with it until it is ready.

Normally, holding 2 keys should not block other keys, because there are supposedly 256 voices, not 3 or 4. I only noticed that problem because a child once pressed these 2 keys while I was playing, and I suddenly noticed that the keys I was using to play real music became mute.

36251, thank you for your suggestion anyhow. About the other posters, I am only interested in real feedback from real N2 owners, not in crap from folks who wrongly believe they are smarter.

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#1919688 - 06/27/12 07:18 PM Re: N2 weakness. Model or general design issue? [Re: EssBrace]
36251 Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/12/10
Posts: 761
I just tried it and the same thing happened. I guess I better sell it.

Seriously, how does someone find this?

<sorry in advance> maybe I should trade in for V...it's been quiet on this board (:


Edited by 36251 (06/27/12 07:23 PM)
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AG N2, CP4, GK MK & MP

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#1919690 - 06/27/12 07:21 PM Re: N2 weakness. Model or general design issue? [Re: foxtrot]
foxtrot Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/27/12
Posts: 18
So to summarize for folks who believe the rest of the world is stupid.
- I turn the piano.
- I leave it time to boot.
- I press the leftmost A and B keys.
- So yes the plug is on the wall, the circuit breaker did not trigger, I am not in Fukushima with a power plant that has blown up, or any other crap. Proof is that the A and B keys actually work and I can hear a normal sound.
- While these leftmost keys are held down, playing on other keys does not work at all 50% of the times, and this seems to be random, i.e. a key which did not respond might respond on a second try.

So if you have an N2 and are willing to check whether your unit has the same issue, I'll be glad to have feedback. Otherwise, just go bowling.


Edited by foxtrot (06/27/12 07:23 PM)

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#1919691 - 06/27/12 07:21 PM Re: N2 weakness. Model or general design issue? [Re: foxtrot]
Dave Horne Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5282
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
I have a solution ... Don't touch the fu***** keyboard until the operating system is completely loaded ... as per the recommendations in the owner's manual.

If my solution doesn't work, then, just then might we have a problem to post for everyone to read.


Martin, your customer.
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#1919694 - 06/27/12 07:27 PM Re: N2 weakness. Model or general design issue? [Re: foxtrot]
Dave Horne Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5282
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
Bowling it is.
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AvantGrand N3, CP5

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#1919697 - 06/27/12 07:30 PM Re: N2 weakness. Model or general design issue? [Re: Dave Horne]
foxtrot Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/27/12
Posts: 18
I know how sensitive these things are.

So no, I do not touch the keyboard until the unit is fully booted up (although sorry but we are not in the 20th century when you had to negotiate with your stubborn car and be nice to it to get it to start).

Then, if I do this manipulation, the keyboard behaves bizarrely as I explained.

As I said in a previous post, it took me a while to detect this because there is no music known to me where you press these keys and hold them down. It is only when I had a child next to me fancying to press some keys that I discovered this.

So I am still sincerely interested in feedback from other N2 users. You might to know if your unit also has this issue.

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#1919699 - 06/27/12 07:33 PM Re: N2 weakness. Model or general design issue? [Re: 36251]
EssBrace Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2423
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
Originally Posted By: 36251
maybe I should trade in for V...it's been quiet on this board (:


Yes but they are plotting - like the gunpowder plotters they are planning to put high explosives under the Yamaha head office - but this thread highlighting a problem with the AG will put beaming smiles on their faces....they may have flaky keys but at least theirs all sound! Bennevis has just now found a precarious ledge to perch on in his ascent up the north face of the Eiger so he can quickly update his Facebook page about this AG catastrophe.

Anyway to the OP, your description of the problem is completely right but there's no need to be so touchy about the odd leg-pull from other members.

Whilst I can't see this specific behaviour in the AG affecting normal playing it is of course a slight concern that it happens at all.

Steve
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Yamaha CP1

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#1919701 - 06/27/12 07:35 PM Re: N2 weakness. Model or general design issue? [Re: Dave Horne]
EssBrace Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2423
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
Originally Posted By: Dave Horne
I have a solution ... Don't touch the fu***** keyboard until the operating system is completely loaded ... as per the recommendations in the owner's manual.


Honestly Dave, the OP is right - it is not because it is still booting-up. The behaviour he describes really happens (to my N3 anyway).
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Yamaha CP1

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#1919704 - 06/27/12 07:40 PM Re: N2 weakness. Model or general design issue? [Re: EssBrace]
Dave Horne Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5282
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
Originally Posted By: EssBrace
Originally Posted By: Dave Horne
I have a solution ... Don't touch the fu***** keyboard until the operating system is completely loaded ... as per the recommendations in the owner's manual.


Honestly Dave, the OP is right - it is not because it is still booting-up. The behaviour he describes really happens (to my N3 anyway).


Yes, you are correct. We should form a committee and fully investigate this. While you are performing this valuable investigation you're forgive me if I spend my time playing the piano.

Be sure to report back on your findings. This is important stuff.

I've owned my N3 for over two years. Once ... once in two years I recall having played the keyboard before the operating system was completely loaded and I noticed one note in the Middle C octave failed to respond. I turned off the piano, waited a bit longer, and then the problem magically disappeared.

That was the only time the piano responded in a quirky manner ... in over two years.

Well, we seem to have a new issue on our hands ... and the solution is to not play those bottom two white keys.

Do I understand this now? There is no problem if we don't play those bottom two note? This is the issue? Really?

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#1919707 - 06/27/12 07:43 PM Re: N2 weakness. Model or general design issue? [Re: EssBrace]
foxtrot Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/27/12
Posts: 18
Steve, I agree that it is not per se a problem because I never used these keys while playing music. However I bought a piano with 88 keys, not 86, so I should be able to use all of them, right?

I also agree that it is still disturbing, because this might be a warning sign that something else is likely to go awry, preferably after the guarantee has become void.

Yes I was a bit touchy, but usually when I see a post from someone complaining about say a camera not working, I do not suggest first that they can still use it as a hammer, because I think they are already unhappy.

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#1919711 - 06/27/12 07:48 PM Re: N2 weakness. Model or general design issue? [Re: EssBrace]
foxtrot Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/27/12
Posts: 18
Now this is interesting. You mean it might be a general problem with the Yamaha design?

Then maybe Yamaha has a fix for this. It could be anything including a firmware update. If the software has a flaw and in some occasion causes the keyboard to not behave as expected, then I'd rather know it and have it fixed.

When I press a key on my keyboard, I do not want it to respond only if it in the mood for doing so.

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#1919713 - 06/27/12 07:52 PM Re: N2 weakness. Model or general design issue? [Re: foxtrot]
EssBrace Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2423
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
Originally Posted By: foxtrot
...this might be a warning sign that something else is likely to go awry, preferably after the guarantee has become void.


I understand your concern. I suspect this is a weird anomaly within the AG's architecture and wouldn't "get worse" as such. Even so, it is very curious behaviour.

If we had a "Yamaha James" here we might also have a fighting chance of getting some answers but alas only Kawai owners on here have an available and willing representative that can make such enquiries on our behalf.

Cheers,

Steve
_________________________
Yamaha CP1

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#1919715 - 06/27/12 07:54 PM Re: N2 weakness. Model or general design issue? [Re: Dave Horne]
foxtrot Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/27/12
Posts: 18
Well Dave yes this is the issue.

If Yamaha would tell me this as you just said it "C'mon mate, do you really need these keys to work", I'd kick their butt quite hard.

Maybe some day my daughter will have to play some piece of music from some obscure composer who likes these 2 keys and I will be f***ed.

So yes I will ask Yamaha to fix it. The f***ing piano cost me 10 grand after all.

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#1919717 - 06/27/12 07:57 PM Re: N2 weakness. Model or general design issue? [Re: foxtrot]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9558
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
As others have noted, it's not really a good idea to hold down keys while an instrument is booting/initialising. This is when a number of software diagnosis checks are performed, so holding down keys may interrupt the process. Furthermore, some instruments have special 'debugging' functions that are enabled when holding down certain buttons or key combinations, so generally speaking it's best to just wait the 2-3 seconds for the instrument to power-up before playing.

Now, if the problem exists after booting, that's perhaps something to pursue, even if the issue only affects the bottom two notes. I recall that some AvantGrand users have received/download a software upgrade for their instrument from Yamaha, so it's possible that this issue has already been resolved. If not, it's definitely worth reporting the problem to Yamaha, including a detail explanation of how to reproduce the issue. In many cases the engineers will respond and issue a software fix relatively quickly.

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
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"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1919719 - 06/27/12 08:00 PM Re: N2 weakness. Model or general design issue? [Re: foxtrot]
Dave Horne Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5282
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
Originally Posted By: foxtrot
Well Dave yes this is the issue.

If Yamaha would tell me this as you just said it "C'mon mate, do you really need these keys to work", I'd kick their butt quite hard.

Maybe some day my daughter will have to play some piece of music from some obscure composer who likes these 2 keys and I will be f***ed.

So yes I will ask Yamaha to fix it. The f***ing piano cost me 10 grand after all.


foxtrot, get a f****** life. This is not an issue.

If you wish to make it an issue you will keep receiving reality checks from me. I've owned my N3 for over two years and had only one quirky example to pass on. You've uncovered yet another. Fantastic. Let's hope Yamaha updates theri owner's manual for future owners.

As an aside, I've noticed that when I close my eyes the room gets dark. smile
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#1919722 - 06/27/12 08:08 PM Re: N2 weakness. Model or general design issue? [Re: Kawai James]
foxtrot Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/27/12
Posts: 18
Hi this sounds very sensible to me. I will report it.

I know about self test at boot-up so I avoid to touch the keyboard before the keyboard is ready, and you can guess I have done it even more when I had spotted the issue to be sure that it was not caused by some manipulation error from me.

I believe Yamaha is a decent company and will handle the issue.

ヤマハさん、僕のピアノを繕って下さい。

F.

Originally Posted By: Kawai James
As others have noted, it's not really a good idea to hold down keys while an instrument is booting/initialising. This is when a number of software diagnosis checks are performed, so holding down keys may interrupt the process. Furthermore, some instruments have special 'debugging' functions that are enabled when holding down certain buttons or key combinations, so generally speaking it's best to just wait the 2-3 seconds for the instrument to power-up before playing.

Now, if the problem exists after booting, that's perhaps something to pursue, even if the issue only affects the bottom two notes. I recall that some AvantGrand users have received/download a software upgrade for their instrument from Yamaha, so it's possible that this issue has already been resolved. If not, it's definitely worth reporting the problem to Yamaha, including a detail explanation of how to reproduce the issue. In many cases the engineers will respond and issue a software fix relatively quickly.

Cheers,
James
x


Edited by foxtrot (06/27/12 08:13 PM)

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#1919723 - 06/27/12 08:11 PM Re: N2 weakness. Model or general design issue? [Re: Dave Horne]
EssBrace Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2423
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
Originally Posted By: Dave Horne
foxtrot, get a f****** life. This is not an issue.

If you wish to make it an issue you will keep receiving reality checks from me. I've owned my N3 for over two years and had only one quirky example to pass on. You've uncovered yet another. Fantastic. Let's hope Yamaha updates theri owner's manual for future owners.

As an aside, I've noticed that when I close my eyes the room gets dark. smile


Blimey Dave, is it time for your meds? Take them now or you'll be back in that padded room again. Give the guy a break.
_________________________
Yamaha CP1

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#1919728 - 06/27/12 08:19 PM Re: N2 weakness. Model or general design issue? [Re: EssBrace]
foxtrot Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/27/12
Posts: 18
Originally Posted By: EssBrace
Originally Posted By: Dave Horne
foxtrot, get a f****** life. This is not an issue.

If you wish to make it an issue you will keep receiving reality checks from me. I've owned my N3 for over two years and had only one quirky example to pass on. You've uncovered yet another. Fantastic. Let's hope Yamaha updates theri owner's manual for future owners.

As an aside, I've noticed that when I close my eyes the room gets dark. smile


Blimey Dave, is it time for your meds? Take them now or you'll be back in that padded room again. Give the guy a break.


Yes, Dave. And if your car stops working, don't have it repaired. Just write yourself a new manual and just watch how nice it looks parking forever on the street.

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#1919730 - 06/27/12 08:23 PM Re: N2 weakness. Model or general design issue? [Re: foxtrot]
toddy Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 1815
Loc: Portugal
This thread is confusing. It looks like a genuine new poster to this forum has a fortuitously encountered a problem with his or her DP that could presage a more serious problem - since it appears to be a poorly functioning o/s.

However, at least two members immediately started taking the [censored], suggesting that the OP was as stupid as an ape. The OP defends the original position, but is told by the others not to be touchy.

If the OP was doing this test while the machine is doing an auto-diagnostic, well why not just say so, rather than treating this person as an idiot.

It is also implied that wanting to be able to use the bottom two notes of the piano as well as the middle octave is somehow beyond reasonable. Why? Has no one tried Ligeti or Ginestera?

There's something I'm not understanding - really, this is odd!.....perhaps you all already know each other? Can anyone join in, and if so, which side?
_________________________
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Reaper / NI Komplete 9 /Kontakt 5// EWQL Sym Choirs/ Sym Orchestra Silver/ MOR2
Mics: SP B1 & MXL V67g/ Alesis MicTube Preamp/ Xenyx302/ Yamaha HS7s .

"Only a fool is fooled" pv88, All Fools' Day 2014.

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#1919731 - 06/27/12 08:24 PM Re: N2 weakness. Model or general design issue? [Re: foxtrot]
foxtrot Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/27/12
Posts: 18
Darwin was right, but just on average unfortunately.

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#1919732 - 06/27/12 08:24 PM Re: N2 weakness. Model or general design issue? [Re: EssBrace]
Dave Horne Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5282
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
Originally Posted By: EssBrace
Originally Posted By: Dave Horne
foxtrot, get a f****** life. This is not an issue.

If you wish to make it an issue you will keep receiving reality checks from me. I've owned my N3 for over two years and had only one quirky example to pass on. You've uncovered yet another. Fantastic. Let's hope Yamaha updates theri owner's manual for future owners.

As an aside, I've noticed that when I close my eyes the room gets dark. smile


Blimey Dave, is it time for your meds? Take them now or you'll be back in that padded room again. Give the guy a break.



Let me get this straight. The piano works perfectly except when the two lowest white keys are depressed shortly after the piano has started up. Is that correct?

That's the extent of this issue? That's it? So, as long as we don't depress those two lowest white notes after booting up, all is still fine?
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AvantGrand N3, CP5

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#1919735 - 06/27/12 08:28 PM Re: N2 weakness. Model or general design issue? [Re: Dave Horne]
EssBrace Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2423
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
Originally Posted By: Dave Horne
Let me get this straight. The piano works perfectly except when the two lowest white keys are depressed shortly after the piano has started up. Is that correct?

That's the extent of this issue? That's it? So, as long as we don't depress those two lowest white notes after booting up, all is still fine?


No. It does it ALL the time. Ignore the booting up bit. It is all the time. I agree with you it is unlikely to be a problem when playing, but it is very odd behaviour and yes, slightly concerning.
_________________________
Yamaha CP1

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#1919739 - 06/27/12 08:31 PM Re: N2 weakness. Model or general design issue? [Re: Dave Horne]
foxtrot Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/27/12
Posts: 18
Originally Posted By: Dave Horne
Originally Posted By: EssBrace
Originally Posted By: Dave Horne
foxtrot, get a f****** life. This is not an issue.

If you wish to make it an issue you will keep receiving reality checks from me. I've owned my N3 for over two years and had only one quirky example to pass on. You've uncovered yet another. Fantastic. Let's hope Yamaha updates theri owner's manual for future owners.

As an aside, I've noticed that when I close my eyes the room gets dark. smile


Blimey Dave, is it time for your meds? Take them now or you'll be back in that padded room again. Give the guy a break.



Let me get this straight. The piano works perfectly except when the two lowest white keys are depressed shortly after the piano has started up. Is that correct?

That's the extent of this issue? That's it? So, as long as we don't depress those two lowest white notes after booting up, all is still fine?


Absolutely correct (as far I know). Now I hate it because every time my 2 year old daughter comes along smiling and pressing these, not only I hear the sound of these 2 keys, which I can live with, but the music I am playing suddenly has gaps, and I hate it.

And no, I do not want Yamaha to offer me a leash for my daughter as a compensation. I just want a piano that f***ing works as it should, for f***'s sake.

If you are happy with this, and you want to downplay this issue because you love Yamaha and hate some other brand you like to bash this is your problem not mine.



Edited by foxtrot (06/27/12 08:33 PM)

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#1919741 - 06/27/12 08:35 PM Re: N2 weakness. Model or general design issue? [Re: foxtrot]
foxtrot Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/27/12
Posts: 18
Originally Posted By: foxtrot
Originally Posted By: Dave Horne
Originally Posted By: EssBrace
Originally Posted By: Dave Horne
foxtrot, get a f****** life. This is not an issue.

If you wish to make it an issue you will keep receiving reality checks from me. I've owned my N3 for over two years and had only one quirky example to pass on. You've uncovered yet another. Fantastic. Let's hope Yamaha updates theri owner's manual for future owners.

As an aside, I've noticed that when I close my eyes the room gets dark. smile


Blimey Dave, is it time for your meds? Take them now or you'll be back in that padded room again. Give the guy a break.



Let me get this straight. The piano works perfectly except when the two lowest white keys are depressed shortly after the piano has started up. Is that correct?

That's the extent of this issue? That's it? So, as long as we don't depress those two lowest white notes after booting up, all is still fine?


Absolutely correct (as far I know). Now I hate it because every time my 2 year old daughter comes along smiling and pressing these, not only I hear the sound of these 2 keys, which I can live with, but the music I am playing suddenly has gaps, and I hate it.

And no, I do not want Yamaha to offer me a leash for my daughter as a compensation. I just want a piano that f***ing works as it should, for f***'s sake.

If you are happy with this, and you want to downplay this issue because you love Yamaha and hate some other brand you like to bash this is your problem not mine.



Nor do I want a rebate of 2/88th of the price.

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