Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum ET - Ok, I'll come right out and say it

Greetings,
I must take issue with this. I submit that the most expensive thing on Earth is the fear of making a wrong choice. And this may be the heart of the temperament debate.

With ET, the choice is simply the level of refinement, and we quickly go beyond the customer's discernment, so practically, there is little choice to be made. Stretch the octaves back and forth, and that's about all the flexibility and choice we get.
With WT's, somebody has to make a decision based on an esthetic sense. There is suddenly a chance to be "wrong". This can be scary to those that have little knowledge of the temperaments and what they do. It is easy to see how the security of ET is not only attractive, it is downright comforting and worthy of defense. In this case, it is usual that we have the greatest vehemence found in those with the least amount of knowledge. The less is known, the more caricatured the impression, finally leading to a position of idealizing what is known, ET. This is not new.

My advocacy of well-tempered tuning began with my own attraction to the sound. My pursuit of customers led me to increase its use. I have, for many years, been selling the most expensive tunings (in, at least Tennessee), to professional customers. Most of them have heard the difference and decided that strict ET was as boring as putting an architect's drawing up instead of an oil painting. We cannot use them in the country recording studios, since it is not uncommon for a vocalist to decide to shift a song up or down by a semitone and they don't want anything to change. In the rest of the world, it is a different story.

My point in posting on these boards is to encourage the tuners that are still flexible enough to investigate all alternatives. There is a world of epiphanies out there for customers, and when they have one, (which is the normal result of presenting someone with a Victorian era WT), they are customers for life. You will tune their piano for decades, you will regulate it, you will be inherited by their children, or you will broker the piano when they retire, because you have become special.

So, it is a money thing. A multi-temperament tech will have more to sell than the mono-temperament tuner. That's all there is to it. Fear of censure is the death of creativity, and creativity is at the heart of life.
Regards,

I am notifying the Moderator about this post. It is deliberately insulting to those that have posted to this Topic.

Very fine post, Mr. Foote:

Do you understand that I am not pursuing the "preference" argument in the ET vs UT debate at all, rather that I am pursuing the argument of what is considered in-tune and not-in-tune?

I do want to comment on the important matter of the customer's discernment. If one tuning sounds better than another, but the reason is not known, then the listener does not know what is in-tune and what is not-in-tune. And after reading about some of the tune-offs, this seems to include many if not most tuners.

Oh Jeff, come on. A moderator?? For calling a thread stupid? Geez, whatever.

Yeah, and you're next! "The floggings will continue until moral improves." (Just kidding )

But, really... Sparky was being deliberately insulting. There is a duplicity that I am trying to get out into the open here. Ruffling feathers won't help.

In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time someting like that happened in politics or religion.

Carl Sagan, 1987 CSICOP Keynote Address

I appreciate your writings Ed and have learnt much from you, and I trust you are someone who has extensive understanding, expeience and skill in the trade, but your statements above make the whole issue of advocating and tuning WT's blatantly obvious.

I would think that most, if not all who are contributing on this thread, and who are advocating and tuning WT's today, are using an ETD?

If people are going to jump on the band wagon, and promote WT because they think they can charge more for their tunings, when they are using an ETD, then this becomes questionable practice.

How difficult is it really to tune EBVT 3 or any other WT with an ETD? But yet people want to charge more for their tunings? Let the buyer beware!

On the other side, it is obviously necessary to be ready to meet your clients requests/requirements and preferance!

Saying an idea is stupid or a thread is stupid is a valid opinion, certainly entitled to post. Now, saying "insert name here" is stupid is moderator material.

Mark asks:
>>The question is, can you actually tune a piano so that your client accepts your work, and is yor tuning stable?<<

Yes and yes.

>>your statements above make the whole issue of advocating and tuning WT's blatantly obvious.

Not the whole issue, but a big part of it. Whatever I can do to make my work worth more, I will do. If that meant being real fussy for the last 36 years so people trust me, that was reason enough. If it means offering a greater choice of tunings, that is another.

>>If people are going to jump on the band wagon, and promote WT because they think they can charge more for their tunings, when they are using an ETD, then this becomes questionable practice. <<

I don't charge more because of whatever temperament I use, I charge more because I am selling my time, and being a multi-temperament tuner creates, imho, a higher demand for said time. My customers agree, with their loyalty and their cash. I want to be worth as much as possible, and the only way to do that is to set my own prices. I am not selling a cure for cancer, I am a luxury item for many, and a business expense for others. I do not advertise.

<<How difficult is it really to tune EBVT 3 or any other WT with an ETD? But yet people want to charge more for their tunings? Let the buyer beware!<<

It is no more difficult than any other program on the machine. Some additional charges might be incurred if a piano needed to be tuned one and a half times to change the temperament, but that is less common than needing a minor pitch raise first.

>>On the other side, it is obviously necessary to be ready to meet your clients requests/requirements and preferance!

I charge as much as my market will bear,( which is considerably higher than others), and even so, am turning away customers. I think any self-employed person would be a fool not to find out what they are worth, and the only way to do that is to charge. What I am trying to address is how to make the market bear more by offering more. I have seen WT's re-ignite pianists enthusiasm too many times to think it isn't a good business asset.
Plus, I get more out of music in a WT, so that is just another plus, besides the financial aspect.
regards,

"Well when the UT flavour of the month dissapears into obscurity, as all others before it always have, you may want to divert your energy into changing Wisconsins' great cheese. Its been yellow far to long and is really in need of some food colouring or something to spice it up."

Your marketing strategy is working quite well. There was yet another request for a referral from San Francisco in my mailbox this morning! I guess BDB couldn't handle it nor would he be interested. I do know of at least two people who could help the lady, however, right off the top of my head. Are we down to 99.8% yet?

Thank you ED.

I deleted the following sentence, "The question is, can you actually tune a piano so that your client accepts your work, and is yor tuning stable?", for the reason that it was not aimed at you but a statement in general.

I do not question your ability to tune. I know of your experience and ability to tune and trust it to be so.

However, from what I understand, there are folks that charge more for tuning a WT than for an ET whilst using an ETD to accomplish either tuning. If this is to be the case, then this is what I am saying is questionable.

Yes, if one can cut out a niche for oneself honestly and one is an expert and capable and one charges more than others, then fine by all means, do so.

Ok, I'll come right out and say it, I have not been asked to tune a WT for anyone yet, but if so, I am ready.

Now, if someone does ask me to tune a WT for them and I do so, using an ETD, should I charge them more for it?

I don't know what you should do, your price and quality of work will tell you what the optimum course is, (albeit in hindsight). It matters not how the tuning is accomplished. For price, I think in terms of time, so if it takes longer, I charge more. I was led to understand that the S&S factory charged $700 to tune one of their concert pianos in a WT, stating that it would take four tunings to change and change back. That might be a case of price depending on something other than the work...

That's helpful. I better learn to put this into practice.

Thanks Ed

Wait, wait a minute... I hear this statement so often that I often preface my classes with the question:

"How often in all your years of tuning have you been requested to tune ET by name?" With more tonal tunings out there,and more people browsing the internet, I have been asked twice in 30 years now to tune in ET...

Similar to the case of piano regulation and voicing it falls to the technician to educate the consumer. What we have here is similar to a decree that ET is the best, no need to even show clients that there are other options...

Ron Koval

According to one poster, there was an election held and ET won that election.

If that is true, what year was that election held? Which temperament was defeated? Which temperaments were in the primary election? Where did the voters go to cast their ballots? How much money was put into the campaigns on both sides of the issue? What was the percentage of voter turnout? Was it 99.9%?

No, I certainly am not saying ET is best. I just made a staement of fact. Now, If my clients are satisfied with my tuning, I am fortunate.

Now, if my clients are happy with ET, which I do tune in general, why should I tune anything else and or advocate anything else?

On the other side, what happens if I do advocate a WT and my client is unhappy with it, who is going to come and change the tuning back to what they do like? Me? And what shall I charge my client for doing this? or should I just take it on the chin? But, I suppose that only a certain segment of the market may like and want WT tunings, and that is fine, give to them what they want! Surely, with ETD's, it is as easy as that!? Fortunately!

Maybe a question should be put to the pianist forum and see what the consensus will be? The consensus may just be, "Just tune my piano as best as you can, so it sounds as good as it can and so I will be happy with what you have done and be glad to pay you for your time and work!"

Concert tunings is a different ball game, as much as I can tell. But, even then, I think the pianists repetoire may have something to do with what temprament one tunes and also, once again the particular pianists preferance? It may be a certain WT or it may be ET. If you tune EBVT 3 on the day and it does not fit the repetoire or the pianist wanted ET or something else, well you in for it now!

If everyone thought as you do, Ron, I would have to be careful at the grocery store. I might get goat milk or buffalo milk when I least expect it!

Well, if nobody has heard of it and if nobody over there has heard a piano tuned in either EBVT III, then how can any reasonable judgement be made? A piano would have to be tuned in it for them to play on and then, they could make a reasonable judgement based on that. Over time, that is exactly what has been taking place. Little by little, technicians are tuning, using EBVT III and little by little, clients are liking EBVT III. Not all clients obviously, because taste and preference is just that. A preference. Yet, some are choosing the EBVT III.

As I mentioned in another thread, if you walked into a bar and asked everyone in there "how do you tune a piano?" Not one person in that bar could answer the question. The answer you would get would be jokes about piano tuners.

Doing an excellent tuning on a piano is an art. It takes time, it takes talent, it takes a lot of learning, it takes an excellent ear, it takes a lot of experience. Almost ALL piano tuners think their tuning sounds great. But, as Chris aptly pointed out, most tuners here are afraid to post their tunings. Only a few of "us" have done so. However, posting something that may be off, is and will be, a learning experience if that person cares to ask for help or advice if something is not right like unison's for example.

What a pianist plays or prefers is entirely up to them just as is the color of your house is up to you. If they/you don't like it, change is required.

On the other hand, when GRM posted a bunch of tunings, some in ET come in EBVT III and then challenged all of us to choose which was which, those that complained about it the most, to my knowledge, didn't even bother to "guess" which was which at all. More than likely, because they couldn't tell which was which. I'll admit, that it was difficult to tell just from listening to it.