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Thanks GP, it is so nice reading and hearing your satisfaction. Do not worry about unisons, it is notorious how delicate they are, and you and Bill have done very well. These recordings are very enjoyable and better than many piano recordings I've heard.

Regards, a.c.

Alfredo, you're welcome!

Unisons...must be the bane of all tuners....LOL ...if just some unisons are out, even slightly, a broadcast quality recording is not possible.

Since learning how to tune, my ear is much better at hearing these out of tune unsisons, and I can't stand them.

GP, I have time for one post before I go to the PTG meeting. While unisons are the easiest concept for a novice tuner to understand, any veteran tuner will tell you they are the most difficult to perfect in the end. I hear a couple of "liquid" ones in Il Postino but most are just fine. You are doing well, don't worry. To really get them absolutely pure, you have to listen to each one while it decays through most of the time the string will sound. That takes a lot of time. A 2 hour time frame for tuning your piano, even when it is still pretty good would not be too long to spend.

Thanks Bill.....nice to know not to pull all my hair out!

And thanks for the tip on listening to the string decay to the end...when I do unisons by ear, I have not listed for that.

grandpianoman:

When you can, could you tell us a little about your mic(s) and where you placed them? Particularly for Il Postino.

(I like these recordings because they are so intimate, and let the listener hear the resonances of the piano.)

Be happy to Jake. I chose these mics specifically for their neutrality and their natural sound quality. Here is the link to their website. For what they do, they are NOT high priced.

http://www.avensonaudio.com/sto2.php

I am amazed at the quality of sound from these small mics.

They are both on mic stands, one at the treble end and the other at the bass end, facing straight down. The treble mic is higher than the bass, as there is more high-energy coming from the treble stings.

Thanks. (Are they facing down into the piano near the rim, or just outside it?)

I'm still a little astonished by how well mics with small diaphragms can capture a certain kind of piano sound. Not a big concert sound, necessarily, but the sound of a piano in a room.

Well folks, I am in another world, sonically that is.

I spent last evening re-tuning the piano again, in EBVT III of course. This time I used my IPhone Tunelab. The results are better.... I must say though, it could have been my fault...when I was tuning with the RCT, I caught it on the wrong octave...I don't know how many notes I may have tuned incorrectly. In any case, this time around I was very careful to make sure I was in the right place with the Tunelab.

I was very careful with the unisons, listening as Bill suggested to the tone as it decayed. I was so taken with the sound of the piano after I was done, I just sat there recording song after song, not wanting to get up to clean the unisons after each piece. So, I will put them in order as I played them from the first piece right after I tuned it, Il Postino was No 1, then the rest follow. You can hear by the end, some unisons are out, and it's going flat a bit in the treble, but the overall tuning stayed better this time...(no heavy pieces) LOL, Enjoy!

I chose these particular pieces as they show how EBVT III can sound in modern music, and there is lots of sustain, rather than a lot of fast notes. The jazz music is very enjoyable with this tuning.

If you have a set of headphones, give them a try with these files...sonic heaven.

As for the sound of EBVT III...I am in awe of your work Bill! It's hard to put it into words....all I know is that I am completely taken with it. All of those pieces I recorded so far, I have heard them many many times, but never have they sounded like they do now. Rich, deep, earthy sounds from the bass/mids...clear, sweet treble notes, then combined, it all fits sonically. Bravo!!

1. (First piece recorded after tuning) Il Postino in EBVT III played on the LX (better tuning) http://www.box.net/shared/s4jke70s5l

2. The Age of Innocence in EBVT III played on the LX (better tuning) http://www.box.net/shared/qq0ue81djl

3. Theme from "The Accidental Tourist" by John Williams, played on the LX in EBVT III (better tuning) http://www.box.net/shared/aullgde8nb

4. Music from Star Wars, "Princess Lei's Theme" by John Williams, played on the LX in EBVT III http://www.box.net/shared/16ruokxmz4

5. Music from John Williams from the movie "Sabrina" (Main Theme) played on the LX in EBVT III http://www.box.net/shared/z4asx6zm1j

6. Jazz on the LX, "Oh Danny Boy" played by Eric REED in EBVT III http://www.box.net/shared/ydy035q3jm

7. Jazz 1 on the LX, played by Eric Reed in EBVT III http://www.box.net/shared/3moufol0zh

More to come. ...GP

Very well-done, GP. Thanks for posting these.

Glen

Yes, thanks for posting these. And yes, the jazz does sound very good.

A perhaps outlandish thought---I've mentioned before on another forum that EBVT sometimes, on some pieces, reminds me of the piano sounds from some older Hollywood musicals. I had the same, very pleased, sensation when listening to the last (Jazz) recording, here. Do I have specific films in mind? Well, no. Just a general impression. I can very easily imagine Lauren Bacall stepping up to sing beside this piano.

I know that Bill has written about how Well tunings lasted longer than some charts indicate. Does anyone else have a similar impression that Well tunings were more specifically popular in American films (perhaps indicating that they were fairly standard in clubs and homes, too)?

Just a vague sonic impression or memory.

Inlanding, thanks.

Jake, the mics are under the lid, facing straight down. The treble mic is higher, about 18 inc from the strings than the bass mic, which is about 8 inch above the strings. This what they call a 'close' mic setup. My living room is not the best room for putting the mics away from the piano, plus I like the sound you get from inside the piano, as you mentioned, lot's of piano sounds.

Grandpianoman, my ear is uneducated about tunings, but I have very much enjoyed what you have posted for us to listen to. (I may be in the same situation as the rich lady in an art gallery, who told an art critic, "I don't know much about art, but I know what I like." The critic replied, "Madam, so does a cow.")

Moo!

I'm a little curious about the mikes. Would you mind saying where you got them, and how you chose them? Nice, flat response curve; that is not so easy to find without spending a LOT of money--- out of my league.

Good idea about listening with the headphones.

Thanks for all of your hard work GP. This is quite enjoyable.
Would you happen to have any David Lanz, George Winston, or anything like that to play? I'd like to hear the EBVT with that kind of music sometime.

Jeff, that is very funny!

Music is a universal language that the average person understands on some level, so your instinct kicks in in situations like this, and it's valid.

I did some research on mics on the internet on several recording forums...and I came across a LOT of mics for every kind of home and pro recording situations. Many of the them were outrageously expensive, way beyond what I could afford. The Avenson's were highly praised for their natural sound quality, and the max spl level was good at 145, which is necessary when recording a piano due to the very high spl peaks, similar to a snare drum, but more complex. I was able to choose them because there were several sites that had comparison tests between mics, average folks recording at home etc, and the Avenson won out on the piano by far, a very real and natural sound. The cost of the mics were very reasonable, considering their quality etc. I bought them over the internet from Front End Audio, a very reputable store for all kinds of audio etc.


Byronje3, you're welcome, glad you are enjoying the recordings. I don't recall having any discs that have those artists on them, but let me go through my collection, and get back to you on that.

As promised, here are the remainder of the recordings I did on this 3rd tuning with the EBVT III figures Bill gave me.

As you can hear, as the recordings progress, a few more unisons out of tune, and a bit flat in the treble section. No matter, I am not going for a CD to sell

This has been a great experience, hearing Bill's EBVT III on my piano. It's brought out a beauty and complexity in the piano and the music that I have never heard before. I am glad you are all enjoying it!

**Forgot to include this folder, where I've put most of the EBVT III recordings :)**

EBVT III Folder: http://www.box.net/shared/82xvrsq3t2

8. Jazz 2 Eric Reed playing on the LX in EBVT III (better tuning) http://www.box.net/shared/jlejls0pz5

9. Jazz 3 Eric Reed playing -Round Midnight- on the LX in EBVT III (better tuning)http://www.box.net/shared/y44634mhta

10. Music from -Schindler's List played on the LX in EBVT III (better tuning) http://www.box.net/shared/m16a4e4yfh

11. Theme from Out of Africa played on the LX in EBVT III (better tuning-last file of this recording session 3-9-2010 http://www.box.net/shared/72udpzsgeq

Kamin--I had the same feeling about one leg shorter than the other in this Rhapsody in Blue, but tracked it down to the interpretation of the music rather than the tuning. The interpretation is halting, not fluid. I know you said, "apart from the roll," but I hear a very pristine quality to the tuning.

Grandpianoman--Thanks for all of this. What a blast!!!

Thanks Cinamonbear , may be yes the rolls, but I really find some chords are unexpected, and don,t relate to the same tonalities that are played a few octaves lower. I was thinking harmony, not the music played, , as by evidence the reproducing systems are not providing much rubato, if any)

To me the tuning is only a neutral support to music, so the pianists can play and express himself, or express what he fell and understand of what the composer had intention of.

The only role of tuning is to put the piano in beauty, raising harmony, resonance, and such.

It may not interfere with the music, it may support it.

So it is music related, but it may have some coherency along the scale, if the rule is too complicated, at some time I hear that as unbalance up to prefer a too compact tuning of an old recording.

Hopefully, the piano, because of iH, have some room to provide harmony in different situations.
More than that, Pianomùan discovered that the piano cna be tuned open, it differs alot from the usual way of tuning, and resonance have a grip at the double/12th relation that enlight the whole tone, even when beginging from a somewhat uneven temperament.

SO global harmony is raised, You would find the same with a tempering based on that relation since the start (and stretch then became natural, not "artificial" to the natural harmony of the piano.

Indeed those last records show that you get the grip for that resonance, thats pretty evident when listening (very enjoyable.

Still, when justness is not balanced between treble and bass it does not make really sence musically speaking , to me.

A very interesting experience would be to record the cts value of the tuning. In the treble it get tempered in a more usual way, probably in the bass as well.
Or simply to record progression of 17 th, 24 th and 12ths all along the keyboard.

Your tuning is very good !

Starwars : justness looks good, the 5th octave a tad compact, high treble very luminous and agreable. Bass nice.

Danny boy : sound false from the start, unfocused (harmonically speaking)

around midnight :
medium umbalance between mediums and bass at the beginning of the piece. generally enjoyeable but so-so.

Shindler list : medium imcomfort , some strange chords.

SABRINA : absolutely awful by all aspects (the music also, thats my revenge for having taken some time listening to those... the name does not come to me...)

Well you lost me here ...

The other jazz piece just tone fine without anything hurting.

I am under the impression that the high treble and the basses resonance "save" the tuning from being dull and anesthetic.

Out of AFrica : incoherent , some noice resonances in the bass the tonality is so so. no much harmony despite the plain simple chords..


So it is tonality related.

Really piano tuned in the Marx brothers movies or all those Jazz records where , eventually not tuned from some time, for the last ones, but tuned in a more coherent ET for what I have heard till today. You know, tuners have ears, it did not appears magically at the 21 th century. Many of themr play the piano, they imagine what they want to hear and correct their tuning accordingly. They dont apply a method blindly, just because that is how they have been told.
Some even may have "perfect pitch".

MOst of them have been using chords (if no fast beating listening) 10ths and 17 ths to proove the eveness of their work, it is clearly audible in most of the movies from those years. There can be some fluctuations in the RBI intervals, certainly not as straightly progressive as tuners have learned to manage them those days, but not with differences in beat progression that can be heard in the middle of a piece.

Just checking major chords inversions and progressions oblige you to have more progressiveness than there.

But yes, our ears tenb to give us what we want to hear, so as it works in the 2 directions, you may hear a very pleasing piano, and I may hear one which is not so well in tune !
I cant count the number of times I thought my tuning was magnificent, just to discover that it was too clear and harsh, for instance, or with too fast beating progression.

It is very difficult to stay honest and aware of what we hear.

Usually, the music helps a lot to bypass all the tuning mistakes or inconsistencies, there is a confort zone, wher the music can take the advantage on that, hopefully, if not pianos would have disappear from the musical scene for a long time now !

All:

Now wait a minute… I haven’t read all the posts here but a little red light has been blinking in the back of my mind saying something does not add up.

If Gershwin composed for how tuners tuned at the time, and if those tuners tuned with 4ths and 5ths, then according to Bill the result would have been Reverse Well. So shouldn’t Gershwin’s music be played in the temperament of the period? Shouldn’t it be played in Reverse Well?

Actually there must be plenty of recordings available from that time period that can be analyzed to determine the temperament and stretch and even the inharmonicity of the pianos. Does anyone know if this has been done?

Late 19th Century and early 20th Century tuners tuned in Victorian style Well Temperament and Quasi ET. Reverse Well only came into existence as a result of the Braide-White book.

Kamin, there is no such thing as "perfect pitch". What you are calling "unbalanced" harmony is actually quite well balanced according to the rules of Well Temperament. What is there is deliberate and intended. You have also given the "neutral palette" argument. If the tuning has no distinctions in harmony, the pianist can create the intended color. Just how does a pianist do that? How can a pianist change tonality according to key signature by playing louder and faster or softer and slower?

One of the limitations about using a player piano (which we all discussed long before I ever went to GP's to tune his piano) is that the player system cannot "hear" the tuning. It will play the way the pianist recorded the piece regardless of how the piano is tuned. When a live pianist performs with a Well Temperament or mild Meantone (as in the case of Peter Serkin), the tone colors of the temperament cause the pianist to shape the music in a far more sensitive way than if the piano is tuned in ET.

I hope Patrick of Finland will show us some examples of this. He is perhaps the one contributor on here who could do it best. Some months ago, I gave the example of the Schubert Impromptu #4 which has within it, as written, the potential for a great variety of expression. The first time I ever heard that piece, it was played on a piano that I tuned in the 1/7 Comma Meantone. The performance was stunning and breathtaking. No pianist can possibly do what I heard at that time in ET. They don't even try. They can't express what is really written, so they just play the notes and the wide variety of moods in the piece are not heard.

I continually see here by the ET only people the argument for taking away all expression that there is available from the way a piano may be tuned. Let's put all music on Prozac (a tranquilizing medication), so to speak. Let's take away all the expression that a piano can have built into it by the way it is tuned so that the pianist will have none to work with. I won't do that. I know what pianists like and I will continue to provide all of the colors of the palette for them to use. ET limits the pianist to only shades of gray, no strong contrasts, the ability to create any expression severely compromised.