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Topic Options
#1921681 - 07/02/12 07:58 AM Chopin/Godowsky - Étude #1 (on Chopin's op 10 #1)
FranKiisko Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/23/11
Posts: 203
Loc: Spain, Europe
Hi to everyone! smile

Well, today i'd like to show you the most difficult piece I've ever played (at the moment). It's the "Étude" number 1 from Godowsky on Chopin's Études. It's the first verision of the "Étude" 1 op 10 from Chopin (that with the arpeggios, in C Major)

Here you have my performance of the original étude:

It's one of the four pieces I played in a concert, which I'll upload very soon.

This Étude is a version of arpeggios for both hands created by Godowsky. I've alredy played the étude original from Chopin and I wanted to improve playing Godowsky's version. It has been very hard!! LOL! The left hand moves practically nothing in Chopin's original Étude and in Godowsky's Étude it doesn't stop moving!!

In fact, when the theme of the beggining return, Godowsky wrote optional passages with octaves, what complicate more the piece.

I hope you like it! wink

Version Godowsky:

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#1922561 - 07/04/12 11:50 AM Re: Chopin/Godowsky - Étude #1 (on Chopin's op 10 #1) [Re: FranKiisko]
Gould Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 429
Loc: Earth
I am baffled as to why no one has commented about this yet. Those performances were amazing! You did a fine job of bringing that nasty Godowsky transcription to justice!


Edited by Gould (07/04/12 11:51 AM)

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#1922627 - 07/04/12 02:09 PM Re: Chopin/Godowsky - Étude #1 (on Chopin's op 10 #1) [Re: Gould]
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8936
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: Gould
I am baffled as to why no one has commented about this yet. Those performances were amazing! You did a fine job of bringing that nasty Godowsky transcription to justice!

+1

I was able to learn the original, but never could get the Godowsky arrangement (which I worked a fair amount on) accurately up to speed.

Great job, FranKiisko! thumb
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Jason

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#1922645 - 07/04/12 03:06 PM Re: Chopin/Godowsky - Étude #1 (on Chopin's op 10 #1) [Re: Gould]
Damon Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6251
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: Gould
I am baffled as to why no one has commented about this yet. Those performances were amazing! You did a fine job of bringing that nasty Godowsky transcription to justice!


A couple of reasons for me.

1. It was Chopin. I usually skip those. laugh
2. Almost all the live, video recordings that people post here have an enormous amount of reverberation that I can't really bear. I make it about 3 seconds before I click stop.

To be fair to the OP, though, I did listen anyway and agree these are very well played.
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#1922660 - 07/04/12 03:35 PM Re: Chopin/Godowsky - Étude #1 (on Chopin's op 10 #1) [Re: Gould]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19873
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Gould
I am baffled as to why no one has commented about this yet....

I think the main reason isn't much of a mystery: It's because he doesn't participate in our site except to post his recordings.

Don't get me wrong -- there's nothing wrong with that, and of course we greatly welcome recordings from everyone who wishes to post them. But members are less likely to feel like saying something about them when the performer isn't a more generally active member.

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#1922728 - 07/04/12 06:28 PM Re: Chopin/Godowsky - Étude #1 (on Chopin's op 10 #1) [Re: FranKiisko]
SlatterFan Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/13/09
Posts: 784
Loc: Brighton, UK
I found your performance of the Godowsky version impressive technically, but I struggled to listen because it feels like the pulse is lost in the middle of each pair of measures. Often it sounds to me like you rush the middle of each pattern and end up with around 7.5 beats instead of 8 beats, and I'm constantly being thrown off and having to adjust myself when the next pattern starts. It's frustrating. Am I the only one who hears this? I know some people are opposed to practicing with a metronome, but if ever there were a case where I think it would be a good idea, this is it!
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Julian

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#1922736 - 07/04/12 06:50 PM Re: Chopin/Godowsky - Étude #1 (on Chopin's op 10 #1) [Re: SlatterFan]
Damon Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6251
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: SlatterFan
I found your performance of the Godowsky version impressive technically, but I struggled to listen because it feels like the pulse is lost in the middle of each pair of measures. Often it sounds to me like you rush the middle of each pattern and end up with around 7.5 beats instead of 8 beats, and I'm constantly being thrown off and having to adjust myself when the next pattern starts. It's frustrating. Am I the only one who hears this? I know some people are opposed to practicing with a metronome, but if ever there were a case where I think it would be a good idea, this is it!


I find rhythmic inaccuracies in Hamelin's and Berezovsky's Chopin/Godowsky etudes as well. I don't think they can be played with the precision that the originals can. If so, I've not heard it.
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#1922759 - 07/04/12 08:05 PM Re: Chopin/Godowsky - Étude #1 (on Chopin's op 10 #1) [Re: FranKiisko]
FranKiisko Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/23/11
Posts: 203
Loc: Spain, Europe
@Gould, Thank you very much! Yes, It has been a hard work, but it has been worht smile

@argerichfan, thanks!! Godowsky's arrangement much harder than the original one. And I'd have liked watch your performance! This amazing pieces are amazing and IMO they have to be discovered for more people!! Thanks! laugh

@Damon, sadly: yes. Many times, live performances of amateur pianists have a bad sonore quality. I'm working on that. I've bought a new recorder to record me with a very good quality. You'll check the change of quality! wink

@Mark_C, you're right, and I say: Sorry. But I had a reason, I have been doing exam at school and preparing my concerts, so I didn' have any time. Now, I've finished my examens and I'm in holidays. I'll have much more time to comment and help to other users and I'm happy about that. I will participate much more. I promess.

@SlatterFan, Thanks for your comment! But it's very difficult to play this Étude metrically correct. As @Damon said, even Hamelin doesn't do it. You can hear his performance here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6I-gPNECE-A and as you can check, he also rushes in the middle of each pattern, and he makes some ritardando and other metrical effects. Of course, there are several things to improve in my performance, but I think there are some differents forms to play an Étude, don't you? wink

@Damon, I totally agree with you. Hamelin does a lot of ritardando and he rushes in the middle of each pattern (as i've already said). For me, the most perfect and incredible performance of this Étude is the Berezovsky's one (here -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCNgsWN-RZc) It's just amazaing. I think it's necessary to let some freedom to the performer :P

Thank you to everyone!! laugh


Edited by FranKiisko (07/04/12 08:05 PM)

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#1922773 - 07/04/12 09:19 PM Re: Chopin/Godowsky - Étude #1 (on Chopin's op 10 #1) [Re: FranKiisko]
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8936
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Perhaps I'm willing to cut FranKiiko some slatter, oops 'slack', because I just loved his enthusiasm, not to mention the incredible octaves. With the exception of SlatterFan am I the only one who has seriously studied this? (On the present thread, of course.)

Whatever, listen to Geoffrey Douglas Madge, and IMO, that is not competitive playing.

Maybe some of the more crazy works in the repertoire can only be approximated, but I think this lad has given admirable service, and his video has landed in my YT favourites. Cheers!
_________________________
Jason

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#1922797 - 07/04/12 11:20 PM Re: Chopin/Godowsky - Étude #1 (on Chopin's op 10 #1) [Re: argerichfan]
Damon Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6251
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: argerichfan
Perhaps I'm willing to cut FranKiiko some slatter, oops 'slack', because I just loved his enthusiasm, not to mention the incredible octaves. With the exception of SlatterFan am I the only one who has seriously studied this? (On the present thread, of course.)


Not my favorite etude and the Godowsky version is way beyond my ability. I have a pretty weak left hand. I'm very familiar with the Godowsky on a listening basis, though. laugh
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#1922803 - 07/04/12 11:51 PM Re: Chopin/Godowsky - Étude #1 (on Chopin's op 10 #1) [Re: FranKiisko]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19873
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: FranKiisko
....you're right, and I say: Sorry. But I had a reason, I have been doing exam at school and preparing my concerts, so I didn' have any time. Now, I've finished my examens and I'm in holidays. I'll have much more time to comment and help to other users and I'm happy about that. I will participate much more. I promess....

No apology needed!
I hope I was clear that there's nothing wrong with not participating more. I was just stating what I think is a reason that your posted recordings don't get more attention. And by the way, we know that it wasn't you who wondered about this.

You play wonderfully, and as you have seen, your recordings do get a fair amount of attention. I was just pointing out why they don't get even more. Please don't feel you 'have to' participate any more than you do. We appreciate your participation just as it is. But yes indeed, if you were a more active member, including not just commenting on other people's recordings but also participating in the general discussions, I think people would be even more interested in listening to and commenting on your recordings.

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#1922850 - 07/05/12 04:41 AM Re: Chopin/Godowsky - Étude #1 (on Chopin's op 10 #1) [Re: FranKiisko]
fuzzy8balls Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 465
Loc: San Diego, CA
Quote:
I've alredy played the étude original from Chopin and I wanted to improve playing Godowsky's version.


Hate to be a party pooper but if you want to improve then you should work more on the original Chopin etude. In the original etude you have good tempo but you are missing the music and it just sounds like 2 minutes of continuous sixteenth notes at the same dynamic (and some missing notes in the large arpeggios in the middle section).
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YouTube Channel: www.youtube.com/user/fuzzy8balls

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#1923305 - 07/06/12 07:56 AM Re: Chopin/Godowsky - Étude #1 (on Chopin's op 10 #1) [Re: FranKiisko]
FranKiisko Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/23/11
Posts: 203
Loc: Spain, Europe
@argerichfan, Thank you very much! I really appreciate your comments smile

@Damon, Yes, in every Chopin Étude, the left hand doesn't stop moving so you have to have a strong left hand if you want to play this Études. You can also get a very agile left hand learning to play this Études, too. wink

@Mark_C, Ok Mark, thanks!! Anyway, Now I have time and I feel like I want to listen to more music and comment about them! ^^

@fuzzy8balls, When I said I wanted to improve I didn't mean I can play Chopin's original Étude perfectly (of course) I meant I wanted also to accept a bigger challenge and playing both versions. As Godowsky says in the prefaces of his book "52 Studies on Chopin's Études": "learning these Studies at same time than the original ones can help you to better understand and play the original ones." I totally agree with that.

And yes, I now Chopin's original Étude isn't perfect but I don't know if you have realized the quality of the recorder isn't the best one and the acoustics of the room aren't also very good. I did the accents and maybe I'm wrong but I can hear music on my performance.

And some missing notes? My God -.-" That really cares? Ashkenazy said once that: "even in a studio, he couldn't do a recorder without missing 3 o 5 notes" I don't think I miss "so many notes" and I don't think that is most important thing.

Thank you to everone!! laugh

EDIT: @fuzzy8balls, I've just watched your performance ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rN4QjAiuNko&feature=plcp) and you miss many more notes than me, so I don't know why that remark...


Edited by FranKiisko (07/06/12 07:59 AM)

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#1923416 - 07/06/12 01:17 PM Re: Chopin/Godowsky - Étude #1 (on Chopin's op 10 #1) [Re: FranKiisko]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19873
Loc: New York
I know how to get you guys to make peace: Get both of you madder at me than you are at each other. ha

I think you both play the etude extremely well. I agree with Fran that his accuracy was fine, and I also had the impression that Gorden "missed more notes" -- but I agree that the bottom line on the missed notes is mostly 'so what.' You both play the piece extremely capably. I much prefer Gorden's performance (despite the 'missed notes') grin -- much, much prefer. It's more mature, more thoughtful, more interesting, with a much wider range of dynamics, and even poetic which is rare for such a piece. But that's not surprising, because Fran is much younger (right?), and the performance we're comparing Fran's performance with is (IMO) a very remarkable one. I also realize that Fran's performance may not have had full justice from the recording technique; anyway I'm going on what we can hear on the videos.

And most of all, both of you play extremely well. Gorden is a great member here, and a champion from the amateur competitions. And Fran plays extremely well too.
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"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)

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#1923417 - 07/06/12 01:18 PM Re: Chopin/Godowsky - Étude #1 (on Chopin's op 10 #1) [Re: FranKiisko]
fuzzy8balls Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 465
Loc: San Diego, CA
Those were bad performances of mine. I do concede that. I'm not going to make any excuses for them -- they are there to remind me to work harder.

FranKiisko, my point is that beyond the note playing there needs to be an overall vision of the piece and a cohesion that binds it together. For example the parts where the arpeggios in a Dsus4 for 3 beats and then resolve to Dmaj, one can bring out that resolution. Then there's the dominant cascading section from D7 -> G7 -> Cmaj7 -> Fmaj7 -> Em7 -> Am7 where one should either cresc or dim depending on how they want to phrase it -- and even piu mosso when the harmonic rhythm increases (should one choose to). There are so many more things that one can do to shade and phrase.

As regarding "missing notes comment" it doesn't mean to criticize the fact that you or I are playing wrong notes. I meant you are lightly brushing over the keys in your playing and that's evident in the wider arpeggios because the middle 2 notes do not sound (this is what I meant by they were "missing"). It is one thing to play it that way, but it is even more difficult to play it in a way to where you touch every single keybed and bring out a singing tone in every note of the arpeggio.

I know you like the comments where everyone tells you "good job", "that was great", etc. But guess what? That does you less of a service than someone that tells you this or that needs improving.

Anyway, it's just my 2 cents.
_________________________
YouTube Channel: www.youtube.com/user/fuzzy8balls

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#1923420 - 07/06/12 01:20 PM Re: Chopin/Godowsky - Étude #1 (on Chopin's op 10 #1) [Re: fuzzy8balls]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19873
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: fuzzy8balls
Those were bad performances of mine....

Please see my above post.
If you're talking about the C major etude from Paris in 2011, IMO it was remarkably wonderful.

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#1923423 - 07/06/12 01:27 PM Re: Chopin/Godowsky - Étude #1 (on Chopin's op 10 #1) [Re: fuzzy8balls]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19644
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: fuzzy8balls
I know you like the comments where everyone tells you "good job", "that was great", etc. But guess what? That does you less of a service than someone that tells you this or that needs improving.
This is good advice. Although I think all my teachers were very good, I may have learned the most from my college teacher(I wasn't a piano major)who was far less complementary than my previous teachers.

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#1923429 - 07/06/12 01:45 PM Re: Chopin/Godowsky - Étude #1 (on Chopin's op 10 #1) [Re: argerichfan]
SlatterFan Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/13/09
Posts: 784
Loc: Brighton, UK
I like the enthusiasm and the octaves too, but I find the lack of a discernable pulse disturbing as a listener. That's my baseline -- putting aside admiration for the performer, forgetting how clever or difficult a piece is, does it sound good? I haven't studied the piece at all and it was only after seeing the score in a YouTube video today that I realized it's supposed to be in 3/4. A-HA! Okay, so there's an impossible immediate leap up in the RH at the beginning of each group. After hearing Hamelin and Berezovsky not doing well with the rhythm either, I have a new level of respect for FranKiisko!

I understand that it isn't possible to play this piece metronomically, but I still think it can have a decent pulse. Surely it must be possible to give the feel of an agogic hesitation as the RH leaps up, and to tastefully flow into a 3/4 feel?
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Julian

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#1923528 - 07/06/12 08:01 PM Re: Chopin/Godowsky - Étude #1 (on Chopin's op 10 #1) [Re: FranKiisko]
FranKiisko Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/23/11
Posts: 203
Loc: Spain, Europe
@Mark_C, Thanks for your comment and all your advices! ^^ (Yes, I think I'm younger haha, I'm 15) It has been a very useful comment, thanks! wink

@SlatterFan, I'm happy you have changed your level of respect for me Haha! Yes, as I've said I really like Berezovsky (his performance is the best IMO) and Hamelin really changes the metrically system of this piece. And yes! It was 3/4 haha!! Yes, I also feel that piece would be better played in a more correct metrical time and Godowsky also felt like he wanted people to play this piece more metronomically (in one of the prefaces, he says the leaps have to be very studied and you haven't to lose he rythm of this piece) but I think Godowsky required too much smile

@fuzzy8balls, of course I like comments who say "good job" and all that (as everyone) but that doesn't mean that I don't tolerate another comments, obviously. I thank you that You have told me the musical part. I know there are several things to improve in the musical plan, and I appreciate that kind of comments, in that aspect you play that Étude much better than me. I was just a little annoying for your commentary who said that "I miss some notes" and for that reason my last comment was about that. With respect to the musical plane, I think accents are done but yes, I think too there are more dynamics to do there. I was inspirated in Berezovsky's version (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9ZBFkG6p6I) and well... I think my performance was a little like his, technically good (he has an amazing technique)and with some diction of accents well done, but not with many dynamics.

IMPORTANT PART I really appreciate your comment and your vision of this Étude, so thank you!! Don't be wrong, I accept every comment. To learn, it's necessary to listen to the opinion and advices from people!!
But... haven't you think it's possible an only virtuosic rendition of this Étude? I mean, for exemple in number 3 (Tristesse), it's an Étude clearly to improve your expression and dynamics, and other as 6 or 9, that's very important too but... Does really the number 1 need it?? In Chopin original manuscript he wrote nothing of dynamics. And in Paderewsky's edition, there is nothing too. I think, as a good piece from the Romantic period, you can give an expressive sense to this Étude or not. This was the periode were performers began to gain importance and to be able to make their own interpretations so... if I feel this Étude like that, why don't play it like that? I'm not contradicting Chopin in any point, for that reason I don't think Somebody could say "That's bad played" if not "I don't like how do you play it", and you can't be liked for everyone. Just play it as you feel it! smile

It's just my vision of this Étude and my thoughs! smile

Thank to everyone, and fuzzy8balls, thank you for your advices about dynamics and for telling me your version of this Étude! :P


Edited by FranKiisko (07/06/12 08:06 PM)

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#1923558 - 07/06/12 10:10 PM Re: Chopin/Godowsky - Étude #1 (on Chopin's op 10 #1) [Re: FranKiisko]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19873
Loc: New York
Fran: It's great that you have such a good attitude toward the comments and criticisms. Teachers must like working with you very much too.

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#1923622 - 07/07/12 02:06 AM Re: Chopin/Godowsky - Étude #1 (on Chopin's op 10 #1) [Re: Mark_C]
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8936
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Fran: It's great that you have such a good attitude toward the comments and criticisms. Teachers must like working with you very much too.

I am sure that is the case.

Perhaps my listening should have been more discriminating -and there have been some very constructive observations- but I just loved the enthusiasm of it all.

Here was a young man confronting Godowsky's challenges with such a healthy bon vivant, a love of life, which is really what Godowsky is all about. He was an incredibly gifted pianist, and a great teacher, but Godowsky's muse only seemed to have taken flight on the backs of far greater composers.

Give Fran a chance, he is extremely talented, and we should be hearing great things in the future. Way to go!

Later edit: my local classical radio station played Hummel's 5th piano sonata this evening. What an absolute waste, there was literally nothing of interest in Hummel's dried up muse. What a reliance on the diminished 7th whenever Hummel wished to modulate, it was truly distressing and horribly predictable.

So Godowsky might be a bit better off.



Edited by argerichfan (07/07/12 02:39 AM)
Edit Reason: Hummel
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Jason

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#1932047 - 07/24/12 11:07 PM Re: Chopin/Godowsky - Étude #1 (on Chopin's op 10 #1) [Re: FranKiisko]
DameMyra Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/21/04
Posts: 1986
Loc: South Jersey
Wonderful and courageous performances. The only thing I would comment on (and I know people are going to jump all over this) is that you are giving a recital in a T-shirt! I just came back from a three week music festival, and with the exception of some very casual children's concerts at a library, everyone performed in concert dress.
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#1932052 - 07/24/12 11:32 PM Re: Chopin/Godowsky - Étude #1 (on Chopin's op 10 #1) [Re: DameMyra]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19873
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: DameMyra
....The only thing I would comment on (and I know people are going to jump all over this) is that you are giving a recital in a T-shirt! I just came back from a three week music festival, and with the exception of some very casual children's concerts at a library, everyone performed in concert dress.

Is it a "T-shirt"?

Doesn't look like one to me. In any event, whatever it is, it seems to me like a very acceptable and not-uncommon type of concert attire. Although, I have to admit that I'm biased, because it's pretty much exactly what I wear for all my performing. grin

I've worn that kind of combo pretty exclusively since I saw a colleague wearing it for a performance 13 years ago and I thought it was great.
If you feel like looking, would you say I'm wearing a 'T-shirt' in this thing?

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#1933116 - 07/27/12 11:23 AM Re: Chopin/Godowsky - Étude #1 (on Chopin's op 10 #1) [Re: Mark_C]
DameMyra Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/21/04
Posts: 1986
Loc: South Jersey
Originally Posted By: Mark_C

Is it a "T-shirt"?

Doesn't look like one to me. In any event, whatever it is, it seems to me like a very acceptable and not-uncommon type of concert attire. Although, I have to admit that I'm biased, because it's pretty much exactly what I wear for all my performing. grin

I've worn that kind of combo pretty exclusively since I saw a colleague wearing it for a performance 13 years ago and I thought it was great.


I was referring to the second video, which is definitely a T. I think a black shirt (polo or button down) and black pants is perfectly acceptable concert attire.
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