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#1924044 - 07/08/12 01:09 AM What think technicians about of max's temperament?
Maximillyan Offline
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Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
What think technicians about of max's temperament?
Dear technicians, please write everything you hear. I'm ready for constructive criticism, I'm do not lose a hopes learn how to tuning the piano. Sincerely, Max
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AeU5J55PN-E
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#1924083 - 07/08/12 06:11 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Johnkie Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/04/11
Posts: 725
Loc: England
Temperament ? How could anyone possibly judge from this video. The temperament consists of the initial octave tuned, from which all the other notes link. You only show yourself trying to clean up a unison.

The piano sounds horrible, although perhaps a little better than on previous videos. If you want to be taken seriously, I would concentrate on tuning an acceptable temperament with clean unisons.

You should be well aware that there are others on this forum that would also like to better their tuning skills, and are making serious efforts to improve, by taking advantage of help and coaching. I see little evidence that you want anything more than notoriety, rather than improve your work.

On a positive note though .... you do use a hoover very well wink
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Concert Tuner & Technician for the past 49 years in the United Kingdom
and Member of the Pianoforte Tuners' Association (London)
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#1924093 - 07/08/12 06:49 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Johnkie]
Maximillyan Offline
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Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Johnkie


On a positive note though .... you do use a hoover very well wink

Why you wasting your precious time when they wrote these lines,Johnkie?
Your opinion is absolutely indifferent to me. I ask you don't continue to put stupid jokes here. Sincerely, maxim_tuner
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A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#1924097 - 07/08/12 06:59 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Chris Leslie Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/11
Posts: 678
Loc: Canberra, ACT, Australia
Max, can you please tell the young lady that she plays very very well, truly. She really deserves a good and well tuned piano.

As far as the temperament is concerned, it cannot be judged from this video. The temperament is best judged by listening to a chromatic sequence of intervals (major 3rds, and 5th) in the middle of the piano, not a complex piano piece, and the unisons have to be very clean. The temperament starts with an octave in the middle of the piano and establishes the relationship between each of the 12 notes. Normally they are tuned to equal semitones and is called equal temperament, or ET. You must first explain to us how you go about tuning these first 12 notes. You remember Alex from Russia began by tuning the temperament in the middle of the piano using 5th and other intervals. Is this what you do as well? If you can post a video of a slowly rising chromatic sequence of major 3rds and then 5ths in the middle of the piano, and explain how you tuned them, then somebody may be better able to judge you and begin to provide advice.

Also, good to see you using the new tuning lever. However, it looks very uncontrolled the way you are holding it. Many tuners point the handle more vertically and rest their elbow on the piano top for support.
_________________________
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Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au

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#1924102 - 07/08/12 07:29 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Chris Leslie]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Chris Leslie
Max, can you please tell the young lady that she plays very very well, truly. She really deserves a good and well tuned piano.

What you write,Chris Leslie I think understand and the unisons and fifths and fourths sequences. I'm trying to do the ET. And yet, this piano really sounds awful, like wrotе Mr Jonkey? Does a piano not sound in Chopin? I will definitely give a girl your good wishes. It is really very sensual play Chopin (Polish autumn woods after a rain). She flys in clouds far from a Earth . Thank you for your criticism
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A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#1924103 - 07/08/12 07:30 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Johnkie Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/04/11
Posts: 725
Loc: England
Max:

With the greatest respect .... it was you that asked for comments on your temperament, and I gave my honest opinion - So don't get shirty .... try getting better at what you do !
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Concert Tuner & Technician for the past 49 years in the United Kingdom
and Member of the Pianoforte Tuners' Association (London)
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#1924104 - 07/08/12 07:31 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Chris Leslie]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Chris Leslie
Is this what you do as well? If you can post a video of a slowly rising chromatic sequence of major 3rds and then 5ths in the middle of the piano, and explain how you tuned them, then somebody may be better able to judge you and begin to provide advice.

I'll try to make this video
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#1924110 - 07/08/12 07:46 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
pianolive Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 327
Loc: Europe
Hello Max,

Like said here, it is not possible to judge the temperament and tuning of the piano from the video. All we can hear is that the piano needs tuning - in both versions.
You should start training to set a temperament and stop picking the strings! As you have no teacher to sit by you and show step by step, this is what I think you could try:
Strip mute the piano from E3 - A4 so you tune only the middle strings. At the beginning this will make it easier for you to tune temperament intervals.
Follow this guide from Bill Bremmer(There are two ways):
http://www.billbremmer.com/articles/midrange_piano_tuning.pdf

Work concentraded on this and come back if you have questions on temperament tuning.
You have to learn this the right way Max and work hard. There are no short cuts.

If you have a laptop, you could download a trial version of the Tune-Lab software and use it to set a temperament, which you could use as a "teacher" or guide. Use it to set the temperament in the octave E3 -> E4. In that octave it is easy to hear the beats of the intervals.

You must learn it right Max. There are no other ways!
When you can produce a tempered octave, you finish the tuning by tuning chromatically up and down.


Edited by pianolive (07/08/12 01:03 PM)

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#1924119 - 07/08/12 08:10 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: pianolive]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: pianolive
All we can hear is that the piano needs tuning - in both versions.

I'm very sorry that temperament not turned out again...
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A=440
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#1924191 - 07/08/12 11:57 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
pianolive Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 327
Loc: Europe
Don´t be sorry Max! To set an ET temperament of high quality is not easy, it does take time to become experienced. Some people learn faster and some need a little more time. A musical ear is not the most important thing in learning, though it can be helpfull. The most important thing is concentration and listening to hear and set the temp interval beats.
You must follow a systematical procedure when you learn to set a temperament. If you do that, you will learn it! The temperament is the base for the the whole tuning.
Try to do as I wrote in the other post, and when you get into problems and have questions about things in your temperament exercise, put your questions here on the board. If you are working in the systematic way on the temperament, your problems or questions will probably be more specific. That will make it more easy to understand your problems and give you specific answers. I am sure a lot of good people on the board will try to help you out!
Ignore people who just try to make fun of you or call you names, it is just a sign of low self-esteem.


Edited by pianolive (07/08/12 01:17 PM)

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#1924895 - 07/10/12 12:57 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: pianolive]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: pianolive

Ignore people who just try to make fun of you or call you names, it is just a sign of low self-esteem.

Thank you,pianolive for your words of support. I hope that if I shall regularly work over temperament to get a positive end result. "The road by walking"
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#1926172 - 07/13/12 06:52 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Adept maxim_tuner’s from Russia (My first tuning. maxim_tuner's method)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsrI7TvxwnM&feature=plcp
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A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#1926365 - 07/13/12 04:27 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2440
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Maxim, see if you can find a really old, cheap, laptop computer and download the free version of TuneLab on it to help coach you with your tunings. Here in Canada a person can get one of these old laptops for $50. Sometimes people give them away for free when they get a new computer.

Either way, while you are still improving your tuning skills, I suggest you label your temperaments "Unequal Temperaments". After 1 day, you can technically call it a "Historic Temperament" if you wish, since it now resides in the past. With the thousands of temperaments in existance, there is an extremely high likelyhood that it matches one of them anyways. This will help keep techs from making stupid comments about it.

Either way, if you miss an interval, or end up with some 5th's that beats like a subway train, mention to the customer that these are unavoidable "wolf tones". Apparantly, pianists don't mind this too much once they learn how to play around them.
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#1928799 - 07/18/12 11:14 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Emmery]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Emmery

Either way, while you are still improving your tuning skills, I suggest you label your temperaments "Unequal Temperaments". After 1 day, you can technically call it a "Historic Temperament" if you wish, since it now resides in the past. With the thousands of temperaments in existance, there is an extremely high likelyhood that it matches one of them anyways. This will help keep techs from making stupid comments about it.


Emmery,thank you for your appreciation of my temperament. If it is "unequal& historic" that is, a vector for me to correct the situation in future.
How I do it now:
1 I get a note to tune in A = 440 in the choir to all gave a sound. Camerton (guitar tuner) fixes it
I build up from ( A = 440)
2 A quart of up (D), and also check it's choir
3 From (Re) get a fifth down (G)
4 When I made only one octave this method so checking at intervals (octave, fifth, fourth, major and minor third), the entire range of 88 keys
5 Diskant check only hears octave
When I made this, I play a mixture of 88 (large and small thirds) through the octave. If something I do not like looking at the testimony of a digital tuner.
Here is a medieval primitive technology with a drops digital . My clients are people do not have large pritenzy for me .

Still study the correct classical temperament is necessary. I will try to
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A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#1928884 - 07/19/12 05:02 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Phil D Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/15/10
Posts: 551
Loc: London, England
Max, do you have a long length of felt that you can use? Like this



This will mute the outer strings so only the middle string will sound. Without it you cannot learn to tune the temperament properly, as the unisons (the 'choir' I think you have called it) mask the sound of the intervals.
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Phil Dickson
The Cycling Piano Tuner

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#1928906 - 07/19/12 06:44 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7887
Loc: France
Nice color ! always raise the dampers when inserting the mute where the felts are W or V shaped.

Nice picture !

Plucking the string gioves a differnt pitch than playing, because it makes more partials ring, the final pitch heard is different.

So one must play the notes while tuning
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#1928916 - 07/19/12 07:21 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Phil D]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Phil D
Max, do you have a long length of felt that you can use? Like this
This will mute the outer strings so only the middle string will sound. Without it you cannot learn to tune the temperament properly, as the unisons (the 'choir' I think you have called it) mask the sound of the intervals.

Phil D,I know and understand it how use the mute tape to tuning . Perhaps it is convenient and correct. Unison (chorus) better listening and this is probably saves time. As I digress to the plucking and listening to the harmonic intervals. However, the "habit is second nature," I am now very hard to give up plucking. I put in a felt stub between the strings, when I work with ( pianolive's) hammer . Currently, the main task, which I put to myself is to achieve the correct unisons and compliance pure harmony intervals between them. So far is not very good I have
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A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#1928919 - 07/19/12 07:27 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7887
Loc: France
Yes it is difficult to stop plucking, but necessary.

You will discover that the hand that play the note is participating to the tuning, it move the string, also you feel the hammer impacting the string with the hand that play .

strip mute is really good,

you also can make individual mutes with leather (an old belt, cut in 18 mmx 180 mm, moistened and hammered to make it thin on the ends)

the tuners I worked with did not use rubber mutes or felt strips 35 years ago, but mutes made of hammer felt or those leather strips.



Edited by Kamin (07/19/12 07:31 AM)
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#1928924 - 07/19/12 07:39 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Olek]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Kamin
Plucking the string gioves a differnt pitch than playing, because it makes more partials ring, the final pitch heard is different.

Kamin, you are right "because it makes more partials ring, the final pitch heard is different.." In the end tuning, I play on the forte with a strong blow the finger on a keys. Plucking, I had use only for the initial tuning the right tone (when 3 string had between itself sound a pour). I had try killed accordeon's sound. Sometimes this technique and apply now
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A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#1928941 - 07/19/12 08:11 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7887
Loc: France
The student tuners begin to learn by plucking usually , then when they have a little habit with the hammer they begin to earn to tune with the keys.

in the factory they are 'chipping' pianos with new strings to put them at pitch
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It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#1928953 - 07/19/12 08:44 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Olek]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Kamin
The student tuners begin to learn by plucking usually

Max wants to forget and throw away his life "a plectrum with rope". Now he beginning tuner-student yet
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A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#1928998 - 07/19/12 10:28 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Olek]
Gregor Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/31/08
Posts: 436
Loc: Münster, Germany
Originally Posted By: Kamin
The student tuners begin to learn by plucking usually


Never heard about that. Ok, chipping after restringing, but for a normal tuning?

Max, you should focus on correct unisons.
_________________________
piano tech - tuner - dealer
Münster, Germany
www.weldert.de

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#1929002 - 07/19/12 10:36 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7887
Loc: France
Gregor, first lessons with chipping, and chippers in factory before learning tuning, just to get some feel with the hammer.

It is not the same actually probably.
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#1929059 - 07/19/12 01:03 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Gregor]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Gregor
Originally Posted By: Kamin
The student tuners begin to learn by plucking usually


Never heard about that. Ok, chipping after restringing, but for a normal tuning?

Max, you should focus on correct unisons.


Gregor,thank you for a attention and your replic. My problem is that the part it may seem that I do not want and can not build the unisons so I have bad ears. But I work with very oldest upright piano. Pins refuse to keep the desired position in a bush and a hole of pinblock. And I have need little to overstate the desired tone in unison. So in my final temperament a human can to feel some accordion's sounding in unison (incoordination). I can assure you that after one or two visits and fix it's sound better
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#1929063 - 07/19/12 01:08 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Gregor]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Gregor
Originally Posted By: Kamin
The student tuners begin to learn by plucking usually


chipping after restringing,

in Russian, this operation is called "tsvikovschik" (цвиковщик)
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#1929117 - 07/19/12 02:27 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Gregor]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2440
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Originally Posted By: Gregor
Originally Posted By: Kamin
The student tuners begin to learn by plucking usually


Never heard about that. Ok, chipping after restringing, but for a normal tuning?

Max, you should focus on correct unisons.


Sometimes us tuners need to resort to plucking and I carry a guitar pick for such occasions. Don't resort to it too often I might add. If a hammer misses a string and the customer refuses to repair it, I will still pluck tune it to get the string up to tension and in reasonable tune. On some old pianos the highest notes can get so faint, a pluck can produce a louder tone in noisy environments or a longer sustain for tuning purposes.
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#1929134 - 07/19/12 02:55 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Emmery]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Emmery
Originally Posted By: Gregor
Originally Posted By: Kamin
The student tuners begin to learn by plucking usually


Never heard about that. Ok, chipping after restringing, but for a normal tuning?

Max, you should focus on correct unisons.


Sometimes us tuners need to resort to plucking and I carry a guitar pick for such occasions. Don't resort to it too often I might add. If a hammer misses a string and the customer refuses to repair it, I will still pluck tune it to get the string up to tension and in reasonable tune. On some old pianos the highest notes can get so faint, a pluck can produce a louder tone in noisy environments or a longer sustain for tuning purposes.

This is very true. This could have written only a practicing piano's tuner. Sometimes in practice, when the use of a plectrum is inevitable. Bravo, you have explained them very clearly.
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A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#1929136 - 07/19/12 03:07 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7887
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: Gregor
Originally Posted By: Kamin
The student tuners begin to learn by plucking usually


Never heard about that. Ok, chipping after restringing, but for a normal tuning?

Max, you should focus on correct unisons.


Gregor, My problem is that the part it may seem that I do not want and can not build the unisons so I have bad ears. But I work with very oldest upright piano. Pins refuse to keep the desired position in a bush and a hole of pinblock.


Max I dont believe you have bad ears, but they are twisted, you are not used to listen for the good part of tone.

FOr the pins that dont stay put, try to work with the hammer very very slowly on those notes, if the pin does not grip when pushed back a little, go back and do again,
once, twice, 3, 4 times, after 3 or 4 times the grip will raise.

Think that the string have to hold the pin in its position, you don't need to push on the pin really, try to turn exactly in rotational plane, but with the real tuning hammer (you cannot turn slowly enough with the T hammer)

THere you need the energy provided by the playing hand to send strokes to the pin so it find its bed. The only necessity is that the bottom of the pin have yet a little grip.

On an old piano with no pin hold, you make the pin "float " in the hole while you fight the string tension with the hammer, the pin is just in the middle, when you release the tension it tend to go to its place naturally.

That is why it is very important to learn to respect the rotational plane of the pin, so not to add wear or compress the hole.

Learn to do that at any pitch (but with enough torque coming from the wire, then focus on tuning 2 strings together.)

To me a piano at 415 Hz is less easy to set the pin than one at 435.
The wire force is pushing the pin out of its rotational plane, it can compensate for a lot of wear.

Manipulating the pin again an again with the method I give you is providing some grip, that is what I noticed anyway (the opposite of what we think generally )




Edited by Kamin (07/19/12 03:18 PM)
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#1929140 - 07/19/12 03:15 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Emmery]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7887
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Emmery
Originally Posted By: Gregor
Originally Posted By: Kamin
The student tuners begin to learn by plucking usually


Never heard about that. Ok, chipping after restringing, but for a normal tuning?

Max, you should focus on correct unisons.


Sometimes us tuners need to resort to plucking and I carry a guitar pick for such occasions. Don't resort to it too often I might add. If a hammer misses a string and the customer refuses to repair it, I will still pluck tune it to get the string up to tension and in reasonable tune. On some old pianos the highest notes can get so faint, a pluck can produce a louder tone in noisy environments or a longer sustain for tuning purposes.


Sure, I also carry some finger nails for that use wink
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#1929141 - 07/19/12 03:23 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Olek]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Kamin
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: Gregor
Originally Posted By: Kamin
The student tuners begin to learn by plucking usually


Never heard about that. Ok, chipping after restringing, but for a normal tuning?

Max, you should focus on correct unisons.


Gregor, My problem is that the part it may seem that I do not want and can not build the unisons so I have bad ears. But I work with very oldest upright piano. Pins refuse to keep the desired position in a bush and a hole of pinblock.



On an old piano with no pin hold, you make the pin "float " in the hole while you fight the string tension with the hammer, the pin is just in the middle, when you release the tension it tend to go to its place naturally.

That is why it is very important to learn to respect the rotational plane of the pin, so not to add wear or compress the hole.

Learn to do that at any pitch (but with enough torque coming from the wire, then focus on tuning 2 strings together.)

Thank Isaac,it's very need words for me
Regards


Edited by Maximillyan (07/19/12 03:24 PM)
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#1983330 - 11/06/12 07:41 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Maximillyan Offline
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Max is once again trying to make a temperament old piano "Belarus"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYrv2950b44
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#1983854 - 11/07/12 05:37 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Dennis Kelvie Offline
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Hey Max,
I AGREE with Johnkie, you DO use the hoover well. And you did NOT demonstrate any difference in anything more than the difference between a badly out of tune piano and one in better tune. You demonstrated NOTHING about the new temperament. The only REAL difference appeared to be in the unisons.

Do you know the difference?
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#1984574 - 11/09/12 10:10 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Dennis Kelvie]
Maximillyan Offline
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Originally Posted By: Dennis Kelvie
. The only REAL difference appeared to be in the unisons.

Are Unison is still there?
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#1984619 - 11/09/12 12:18 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Emmery Offline
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Max, spend some time around a really good tuner if you can find one. Carefully analyze the temperament on various pianos. It would be best if you had a solid benchmark to measure your progress against.
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#1984641 - 11/09/12 01:03 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Emmery]
Maximillyan Offline
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Originally Posted By: Emmery
Carefully analyze the temperament on various pianos.

Hi,Emmery
Thanks for watching my movie. From your point of view it is permissible for temperament Piano 1957? I'm really trying to find the right temperament. I do not hide their mistakes. I am ready to criticism from other tuners. I do it's as I can, sorry
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#1984898 - 11/10/12 04:40 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Gregor Offline
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Posts: 436
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If you don´t have a mentor, go and get a tuning software like tunelab. Tune the temperament and check it with tunelab: what did you well, what not? Use it as a mentor.

BTW, temperament is the term for tuning the whole octave from A3 to A4.

Gregor
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#1984970 - 11/10/12 09:24 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Gregor]
Emmery Offline
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The temperament octave can be set in in various areas of the keyboard. Some people like to extend it beyond an octave also, but an octave is the minumum needed.

F3-F4 is probably most popular. Major 3rds get too fast above this point for progressive checks for most people. I know an old timer who sets his temperament between F2-F3 and likes the slower M3's afforded by this, and lots of people go from C3-C4, especially if they are carrying a C fork.


Edited by Emmery (11/10/12 09:25 AM)
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#1985208 - 11/11/12 01:14 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
erichlof Offline
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Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 370
Hey Max,
If you can't watch a pro at work tuning in your area, take a look at this video:



Listen to him tuning unisons and octaves. Always strive for a clean, clear unison and octave - no 'waves' or 'wobbles'.

Good luck!

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#1985271 - 11/11/12 08:29 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
rxd Offline
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By now you should be doing a decent tuning. I can't help thInking that you might be doing a good tuning but, because of the lever technique you lectured us about in your last video, I can hear the piano going out of tune while you spend the first half of this particular video talking.

In your favor, I have yet to find a uTube demonstration of a good classic tuning technique using the thumb as a fulcrum that you can learn from. It seems that the ones who really know how to tune either don't know how to put a video on line or simply can't be bothered.

"The stuff on the web these days is actively preventing raw talent from developing"----discuss....
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#1985277 - 11/11/12 08:56 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: rxd]
Maximillyan Offline
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Originally Posted By: rxd
By now you should be doing a decent tuning. I can't help thInking that you might be doing a good tuning but, because of the lever technique you lectured us about in your last video, I can hear the piano going out of tune while you spend the first half of this particular video talking.

In your favor, I have yet to find a uTube demonstration of a good classic tuning technique using the thumb as a fulcrum that you can learn from. It seems that the ones who really know how to tune either don't know how to put a video on line or simply can't be bothered.

"The stuff on the web these days is actively preventing raw talent from developing"----discuss....


I'm sorry but I absolutely do not understand what you mean. If you think that Max is not able to tuning of a piano, then it is your right
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#1985293 - 11/11/12 09:42 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
rxd Offline
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Read it again, max. That's not what I said.
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#1985297 - 11/11/12 09:53 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: rxd]
Maximillyan Offline
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Originally Posted By: rxd
Read it again, max. That's not what I said.

So, what are You talked?
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#1998137 - 12/12/12 01:04 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Maximillyan Offline
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#1998163 - 12/12/12 02:23 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
rxd Offline
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Thank you, Max I haven't heard "Hearts amd Flowers" for years.
Did you tune the Yamaha?
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#1998168 - 12/12/12 02:40 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: rxd]
Maximillyan Offline
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Originally Posted By: rxd
Thank you, Max I haven't heard "Hearts amd Flowers" for years.
Did you tune the Yamaha?

Yes,I am.In the Russian version of the name of this romance "I met you" Я встретил Вас.
This is my first try a grand piano temperament use a professional hammer(gift's pianolive). I got up a pitch of this grand from 438 to 440.
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#1998184 - 12/12/12 03:55 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
rxd Offline
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This represents quite a large improvement.

I suspect that, even though the a was 438, the treble may have been even lower so going over the tuning twice would have produced a better result.

The next step is to use other intervals as checks when tuning octaves and also in checking your work before finishing. By using these checks you will also realise the need for more care in the temperament. Tuning is a lifetimes study.

There are a couple of current threads on this forum that have a lot of good information on this.

Thank you for confirming our faith in you.
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#1998197 - 12/12/12 05:34 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: rxd]
Maximillyan Offline
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Originally Posted By: rxd
This represents quite a large improvement.
Thank you for confirming our faith in you.

Thank you for your message,rxd . For me it was very important, especially your estimation, I'm touched. Over the year I was read many topics our forum about the tuning. Now sometimes me try manage temperament. Client-owner of Yamaha was pleased this temperament. I was afraid to pull the bass strings and long conjured over the every pins, but the Lord protected me. I did tuning this Grand! I thank all the technicians who give me advice and believe in me. Regards,Max


Edited by Maximillyan (12/12/12 05:35 AM)
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#2007795 - 01/02/13 02:56 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Maximillyan Offline
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Happy New Year!!!
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#2009017 - 01/04/13 03:39 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
murrayb1893 Offline
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Posts: 4
Too hard to tell via a Youtube video.
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#2009275 - 01/05/13 03:40 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: murrayb1893]
Maximillyan Offline
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Originally Posted By: murrayb1893
Too hard to tell via a Youtube video.

Sorry murrayb1893. A message forum for those technicians who are aware of Max from Kazakhstan. He is still trying to do temperament oldest piano.maxim_tuner ready for constructive criticism
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#2009362 - 01/05/13 09:40 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
rxd Offline
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It is said that bad habits gained early on are the hardest to eradicate.

I did detect some improvement with the Yamaha grand but your last video sounded very much like your first.

What happened? You made two steps forward and three steps back.

We honestly can't tell much from your last video because there is not one good unison, some of them worse than your first video.

I can appreciate how the Lord protected you on the Yamaha but there is an ancient saying; "Trust Allah, but tie your camel to a tree".

Make your next video just unisons and octaves and please don't talk. A good tuning shouldn't have to be explained.

Then you will be taken seriously.
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#2009952 - 01/06/13 11:33 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: rxd]
Maximillyan Offline
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Originally Posted By: rxd
"Trust Allah, but tie your camel to a tree".
Make your next video just unisons and octaves and please don't talk. A good tuning shouldn't have to be explained.

На Бога надейся, а сам не плошай
dear rxd, I today really listened carefully and agree with you that not clean unisons and octaves some are not perfect. I will try soon to go back and fix it. In this video I play is not the final version. Later I corrected some things, but the camera was not working more than. But thanks again to you for advice.
Regards, Max
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#2012120 - 01/10/13 07:51 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: rxd]
Maximillyan Offline
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Originally Posted By: rxd
please don't talk. A good tuning shouldn't have to be explained.


Dear rxd,await your verdict
Regards, maxim_tuner


Edited by Maximillyan (01/10/13 07:55 AM)
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#2012138 - 01/10/13 08:30 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
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Registered: 11/07/07
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Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
Not only is the piano horribly out of tune with itself but unison's are badly out of tune and the piano is way off from pitch too!!! It is at least 1/4 of a tone or more flat of pitch. Plus, the voicing is not good either.
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#2012781 - 01/11/13 12:55 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
rxd Offline
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Max,

Everything Jerry said applies.

The stage is beautifully dressed and there is some good piano teaching in your area. The whole thing is being let down by the state of the piano.

The piano sounds as though it has potential to be worthy of those young girls who have worked so hard at their playing.

It means going back to basics and that requires self discipline.

I asked you to show me some well tuned unisons. If you give me what I ask for and no more at this stage, we might be able to help you. That, in itself is an excerise in self discipline.

Only by tuning still unisons that stay where you put them can you begin to understand the basics of pin setting. This is extremely important.

Those girls are at a stage where they need their pianos in good condition in order to develop their potemtial as fine musicians. Don't let them down.

Piano tuning and servicing takes practice and is a lifetimes study. You have been sent everything you need to make a fresh start. Step up to the plate and give those people your best.

If a thing is worth doing, it is worth doing well.

Practice, practice, practice.
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#2013080 - 01/11/13 08:52 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
David Jenson Offline
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Registered: 10/22/06
Posts: 2139
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan


Dear rxd,await your verdict
Regards, maxim_tuner
Wow! That was painful! The piano is not in tune. I think some echo and standing waves along with a less than stellar microphone contributed to the pain level, but the thing is pretty bad all on its own.
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#2013103 - 01/11/13 09:40 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
DoelKees Offline
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Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1760
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: rxd
please don't talk. A good tuning shouldn't have to be explained.


Dear rxd,await your verdict
Regards, maxim_tuner

It sounds pretty good to me, better than the piano that my kids gave their recital on here at some local Univertity, supposedly tuned by a top notch local RPT.

The unisons are quite lively, and I think it sounds good like that. Who wants a static note? Listen to the cantabile section at 11:00: all the beats create a nice texture.

Of course voicing can not be judged from an amateur recording.

Just my musical opinion.

Kees

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#2013206 - 01/12/13 04:05 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: DoelKees]
rxd Offline
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Registered: 03/11/09
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Loc: London, England
[/quote]
It sounds pretty good to me, better than the piano that my kids gave their recital on here at some local Univertity, supposedly tuned by a top notch local RPT.

The unisons are quite lively, and I think it sounds good like that. Who wants a static note? Listen to the cantabile section at 11:00: all the beats create a nice texture.

Of course voicing can not be judged from an amateur recording.

Just my musical opinion.

Kees [/quote]

Fascinating.

Kees, You write so eloquently about the mathematical niceties of fine tuning that I find it incongruous you should make the above statement.

I am not criticising your musical taste, acceptance of this style of tuning is very common and I know tuners who make a good lIving tuning this way, I even hired one but I have told that story before. I am not denying that there is a strong profitable market for it. My own stepfather who encouraged my interest in music, while he spent many evenings at the opera and symphony hall, often travelling hundreds of miles to catch an important performance, something I do myself now. He was generous with his time and money toward local music societies and yet he preferred his piano tuned this way or some of the many degrees of it. fortunately, we had our piano tuned 4 times a year by a competent tuner as I was growing up but when I left home, it got neglected and he preferred it that way so I never had to do the obligatory tuning whenever I went home.

The temperament chosen is of almost no consequence in this style of tuning but Max is appealing to us for an assessment of his temperament. We cannot give a
this assessment until the unisons are clean enough for us to make the aural distinctions that seem to only exist on paper to many theoretists, including yourself, as it comes to light.

There is a more refined style of tuning that is the only style found acceptable in major concert halls and sound studios. Its purity is often described as sterility but this is true of many art forms. Only in this purity can a temperament be ascertained.

The vast majority, it appears, cannot recognise the sound of a piano that has been tuned in this refined style. It seems to be an aquired taste.

Questions for anybody....Would you pay for a tuning like Max's on your piano?. Would you know the difference purely by listening?. If you can't hear the difference, is it fair to raise your kids to not know the difference?? (some kids have the acuity of hearing and develop the recognition skills naturally).

Your contribution here is valuable in that it brings this important aspect into focus and I thank you for once again substantiating the wisdom in the quote from Mr. Berra that accompanies all my posts.




Edited by rxd (01/12/13 09:59 AM)
Edit Reason: Clarity
_________________________
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Eschew obfuscation.



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#2013356 - 01/12/13 10:40 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: rxd]
DoelKees Offline
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Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1760
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
rxd, maybe it also has something to do with the 2 glasses of absinthe I had before listening. Now in the morning it does not sound so good anymore. Also I don't call what they do music, it's more a race to play as many notes as fast and loud as possible, so the tuning doesn't matter. Do you recall the Chopin nocturne and the bar song from the movie "Tombstone"? Exquisitely beautiful in that tuning.

Kees

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#2013399 - 01/12/13 11:53 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: rxd]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
Originally Posted By: rxd

It sounds pretty good to me, better than the piano that my kids gave their recital on here at some local Univertity, supposedly tuned by a top notch local RPT.

The unisons are quite lively, and I think it sounds good like that. Who wants a static note? Listen to the cantabile section at 11:00: all the beats create a nice texture.

Of course voicing can not be judged from an amateur recording.

Just my musical opinion.

Kees [/quote]

Fascinating.

Kees, You write so eloquently about the mathematical niceties of fine tuning that I find it incongruous you should make the above statement.

I am not criticising your musical taste, acceptance of this style of tuning is very common and I know tuners who make a good lIving tuning this way, I even hired one but I have told that story before. I am not denying that there is a strong profitable market for it. My own stepfather who encouraged my interest in music, while he spent many evenings at the opera and symphony hall, often travelling hundreds of miles to catch an important performance, something I do myself now. He was generous with his time and money toward local music societies and yet he preferred his piano tuned this way or some of the many degrees of it. fortunately, we had our piano tuned 4 times a year by a competent tuner as I was growing up but when I left home, it got neglected and he preferred it that way so I never had to do the obligatory tuning whenever I went home.

The temperament chosen is of almost no consequence in this style of tuning but Max is appealing to us for an assessment of his temperament. We cannot give a
this assessment until the unisons are clean enough for us to make the aural distinctions that seem to only exist on paper to many theoretists, including yourself, as it comes to light.

There is a more refined style of tuning that is the only style found acceptable in major concert halls and sound studios. Its purity is often described as sterility but this is true of many art forms. Only in this purity can a temperament be ascertained.

The vast majority, it appears, cannot recognise the sound of a piano that has been tuned in this refined style. It seems to be an aquired taste.

Questions for anybody....Would you pay for a tuning like Max's on your piano?. Would you know the difference purely by listening?. If you can't hear the difference, is it fair to raise your kids to not know the difference?? (some kids have the acuity of hearing and develop the recognition skills naturally).

Your contribution here is valuable in that it brings this important aspect into focus and I thank you for once again substantiating the wisdom in the quote from Mr. Berra that accompanies all my posts.


[/quote]

Nicely written rxd.

I have found over the years and many people here in PW fit into this category, that in many cases, many of the tuners in here can't hear worth a crap. They all claim that they can but when comments such as I like the unisons out of tune come forth and they like it that way; all that tells me is that they cannot get them clean themselves. It also tells me that they are not all that experienced as they lead us to believe with attempting to get clean unisons and, it tells me that they have not had much experience with truly good, concert artists that they, themselves can hear the difference between in and out of tune. Most of which want pure unison's not out of tune ones.

Even with a bad recording, that tuning is easy to hear as is the bad voicing on it.

As for the question would I hire someone like that to tune my piano? Absolutely uquivocally NO WAY! I have a reputation to uphold. smile
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#2013405 - 01/12/13 12:13 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
accordeur Offline
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Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 1207
Loc: Qubec, Canada
I thought Doelkees was being sarcastic. That piano is not in tune at all.
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#2013703 - 01/12/13 10:46 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: DoelKees]
rxd Offline
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Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1766
Loc: London, England
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
rxd, maybe it also has something to do with the 2 glasses of absinthe I had before listening. Now in the morning it does not sound so good anymore. Also I don't call what they do music, it's more a race to play as many notes as fast and loud as possible, so the tuning doesn't matter. Do you recall the Chopin nocturne and the bar song from the movie "Tombstone"? Exquisitely beautiful in that tuning.

Kees


Saving face is one thing. Going on to attack two little girls giving a concert is another. It Just looks like peevishness.

Didn't you ever give a concert when you were a little girl?

Your reply lends credence to another suspicion of mine, that being the state of sobriety of many posters. The pitiful long and short term effects of absinthe are well known, I'm amazed anybody still uses it.

Going online under its influence also could make it look like you might have been drinking alone.

Let's put it down to that and leave it there, thus disproving one more adage; absinthe does not make the heart grow fonder.
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2013857 - 01/13/13 10:25 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: rxd]
DoelKees Offline
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Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1760
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
rxd, I'll go to church when I need a sermon, thank you very much.
Kees

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#2013858 - 01/13/13 10:31 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4215
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
Doubtful it is genuine wormwood rxd, mostly likely the product artesium absinthium. Genuine absinthe causes neurological disorders and seizures etc.

Interestingly enough it was British importer BBH Spirits who initilally began to import Hill's Absinthe from the Czech Republic, which sparked a renewed interest in the product in the early 90’s. The product that came from the Czech Republic, Spain and Portugal was considered inferior as it used bohemian product in its manufacture.

In yr 2000 absinthe began production in France, the first time since 1914 or something like that. Today there are dozens of manufacturers in France.

Then in 2004 Amsterdam wine seller Menno Boorsma challenged the ban in Holland (as the ban was a conflict and never was a formal one.)

2007 saw the French ironically named Lucid brand become the first genuine absinthe to be made and receive a COLA certificate to import to the US.

St George Spirits of Alameda CA become the first manufacturer in the US.

In May of 2011 the (1915) ban in France was repealed.
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#2013862 - 01/13/13 10:39 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
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St. George Sprits, must have been a hehe, I love these, "spirited fellow" huh?

I've suspected the same thing over time as rxd that certain posters drink first, post and then think later. Now me, I'm on drugs on accounta I just had Gallbladder kicked out of my body so I have an excuse! hehe. Even then, I think my spellin is a bit of a problem more than anything else! smile But then, what else is new??? I've always had a problem with my spelling! ha
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#2013895 - 01/13/13 11:56 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: rxd]
Maximillyan Offline
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Originally Posted By: rxd
Step up to the plate and give those people your best.
Practice, practice, practice.

Thank rxd for your message I shall try do it again and I think so a temperament be much better
Regards,Max
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#2013898 - 01/13/13 12:06 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Jerry Groot RPT]
Maximillyan Offline
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Originally Posted By: Jerry Groot RPT
Originally Posted By: rxd

many of the tuners in here can't hear worth a crap.

I urge not to write this offensive language here
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#2013905 - 01/13/13 12:17 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: DoelKees]
Maximillyan Offline
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Originally Posted By: DoelKees
rxd, maybe it also has something to do with the 2 glasses of absinthe I had before listening. Now in the morning it does not sound so good anymore. Also I don't call what they do music, it's more a race to play as many notes as fast and loud as possible, so the tuning doesn't matter. Do you recall the Chopin nocturne and the bar song from the movie "Tombstone"? Exquisitely beautiful in that tuning.
Kees

DoelKees, perhaps not everything was at Maxim, but this is not the "vodka" or as in your case (absinthe). Sometimes even some beats in unison and not quite perfect octave lies refined aesthetic pleasure. There is a good Russian proverb: "There are no ugly women, there are only few of vodka" (joke)

DoelKees, быть может не всё получилось у Максима, однако причина не в "вине" или как в Вашем случае (absinthe). Иногда даже в некоторых биениях в унисонах и не совсем чистых квартах и октавах кроется утончённое эстетическое наслаждение. Есть хорошая русская пословица: "Не бывает некрасивых женщин,бывает только мало водки" (шутка)
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#2013908 - 01/13/13 12:22 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
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Max, crap is not considered a naughty word.

2ndly, having bad sounding unisons is NOT acceptable under any circumstances and trying to pawn them off as being "okay or acceptable in any manner is wrong." They are out of tune, the piano itself is at LEAST 1/4 of a tone flat of pitch. There is no excuse for that one alone. The octaves are all out of tune. You ask for advice and then reprimand US for giving it. There is no way I can take you serious with that kind of attitude.
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#2014152 - 01/13/13 11:25 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
DoelKees Offline
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Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
rxd, maybe it also has something to do with the 2 glasses of absinthe I had before listening. Now in the morning it does not sound so good anymore. Also I don't call what they do music, it's more a race to play as many notes as fast and loud as possible, so the tuning doesn't matter. Do you recall the Chopin nocturne and the bar song from the movie "Tombstone"? Exquisitely beautiful in that tuning.
Kees

DoelKees, perhaps not everything was at Maxim, but this is not the "vodka" or as in your case (absinthe). Sometimes even some beats in unison and not quite perfect octave lies refined aesthetic pleasure. There is a good Russian proverb: "There are no ugly women, there are only few of vodka" (joke)

DoelKees, быть может не всё получилось у Максима, однако причина не в "вине" или как в Вашем случае (absinthe). Иногда даже в некоторых биениях в унисонах и не совсем чистых квартах и октавах кроется утончённое эстетическое наслаждение. Есть хорошая русская пословица: "Не бывает некрасивых женщин,бывает только мало водки" (шутка)


I understand the proverb, it's funny and has some wisdom behind it.

Jerry Groot likes to tune all unisons beatless, but studies have shown that musicians like the unisons to be a little bit off. This is why many people like a professional tuning better after a couple of days, when things have moved out of perfection.

Of course if you can tune beatless unisons you can also tune lively unisons, but if all you can tune is lively unisons you can not tune pure unisons. Food for thought.

Kees

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#2014216 - 01/14/13 03:42 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: DoelKees]
Mark R. Offline
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Originally Posted By: DoelKees
studies have shown that musicians like the unisons to be a little bit off.


What studies? Can you point us to them?

I know many musicians, but amongst them, I don't know a single one who prefers off unisons over clean ones.
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#2014297 - 01/14/13 09:02 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
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Jerry Groot? And Patrick, and David Jensen and Bill Bremmer, and Dan Silverwood and Emmery, and grandpianoman, and Jeff and BDB and Bob Maret and Loren DiGiorgi and pretty much everyone else in here that can hear if a piano is out of tune or not Kee's. You're in the minority and you're wrong. So is Max.

Sometimes, I really wonder if you know what the heck you're talking about or not Kee's?

You may be able to spout off mathmatics like nobody's business but that is totally meaningless jibberish if you cannot do a good job of tuning or do not wish too.Or if you just like unison's that are out of tune. You a screwy wabbit u are...

I don't know how many pianos you tune a year but, prior to my health issues which have been going on for the past 2 or 3 years, I was tuning on average around 1,000 pianos per year and I was tuning for one heck of a lot of piano concerts.

Customers want the piano they are playing on to be in tune NOW, not two days after the concert is done with.... This is almost hilarious! I say, almost... smile


Edited by Jerry Groot RPT (01/14/13 09:11 AM)
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#2014303 - 01/14/13 09:24 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
ando Offline
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I'm not a technician, but that tuning is completely unacceptable to me. It sounds terrible - like the kind of tuning you hear a movie set in an old western saloon. The young ladies playing on it are succeeding in spite of the tuning, not because of it.

I'm only a novice tuner, and I'm not an expert in setting temperaments, but at least I can get clean and stable unisons. To me that is a bare minimum for a tuning. This tuning fails that most basic of tests.

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#2014313 - 01/14/13 09:48 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Minnesota Marty Offline

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The piano is dreadful.

The performances are not.
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#2014317 - 01/14/13 09:55 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Emmery Offline
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Max, I'll give my critique on the tuning here. I have software here for some decent analysis. The majority of the keys are indeed about 22-28 cents flat in the central 4 octaves, with the exception of G's and D's, which are about 5 cents flat. This indicates the temperament has got some issues also unless this is something other than ET. You need to check the calibration of your tuning fork to something valid. The tuning fork is a fickle thing, susceptable to changes from temperature, nicks and scratches, rust, ect. The treble and extreme treble increase in flatness up to about 50 cents. I beleive you need to find some useful checks for this that puts it up where it needs to be. The highest octave typically ends up 25-35 cents higher than normal, not lower. The unisons are far too busy/dirty. I am talking about a disparity that goes beyond "having extra energy". In laymens terms, the unisons are out of tune. With the music the girls were playing, a solid ET tuning with clean unisons and octaves would more than suffice. The saloon pianos of the west sounded the way they did because they travelled cross country on bumpy wagon rides, not because there was a particular dirty tuning style for them. They were often not tuned, or at best, a fiddle player or a saloon singer would attempt to pull up the worst notes with a crude tool the town blacksmith would fashion for them. Max, make sure you start with a referance point of A440. It would be extremely embarrasing if you get called to tune somewhere the piano will be played with a fixed pitch instrument....even people with wooden ears will pick up on that. I would likely do 2 or 3 passes on a piano that sounded like this one likely did before you started tuning it.


Edited by Emmery (01/14/13 09:58 AM)
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#2014365 - 01/14/13 11:22 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Emmery]
Maximillyan Offline
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Originally Posted By: Emmery
Max, I'll give my critique on the tuning here.


Dear Emmery, I am glad to receive your message. I sorry that you have to devote a lot of time analyzing my clip's tuning.
I took tuning a grand because really wanted to do it. In our country town no professional piano tuner and music school administrator asked me made temperament. My fee was $ 13. «Bluthner" for many years set (A = 438). Prior to the concert was less than a day. I began to move with this tone, because he was afraid to break the strings. Replace torn, there is no opportunity here. After the concert, I checked temperament. I did not catch the big differences for yourself. Fa3 note was slightly lower. Good not sounded as H4, F# 4 so. I did a temperament as I could. I will heed the advice of tech. experts for increase their own skills.
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#2014367 - 01/14/13 11:24 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Maximillyan Offline
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Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
The piano is dreadful.

The performances are not.

showmustgoon
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#2014374 - 01/14/13 11:29 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: ando]
Maximillyan Offline
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Originally Posted By: ando
like the kind of tuning you hear a movie set in an old western saloon.

Financial and moral state of culture in Kazakhstan is now at a level much like the Wild West, the late nineties of the 19th century
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#2014378 - 01/14/13 11:38 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
DoelKees Offline
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The correct order for replying to a post is:

1) read
2) think
3) reply

Kees

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#2014385 - 01/14/13 11:52 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: DoelKees]
Maximillyan Offline
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Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
rxd, maybe it also has something to do with the 2 glasses of absinthe I had before listening. Now in the morning it does not sound so good anymore. Also I don't call what they do music, it's more a race to play as many notes as fast and loud as possible, so the tuning doesn't matter. Do you recall the Chopin nocturne and the bar song from the movie "Tombstone"? Exquisitely beautiful in that tuning.
Kees

DoelKees, perhaps not everything was at Maxim, but this is not the "vodka" or as in your case (absinthe). Sometimes even some beats in unison and not quite perfect octave lies refined aesthetic pleasure. There is a good Russian proverb: "There are no ugly women, there are only few of vodka" (joke)

DoelKees, быть может не всё получилось у Максима, однако причина не в "вине" или как в Вашем случае (absinthe). Иногда даже в некоторых биениях в унисонах и не совсем чистых квартах и октавах кроется утончённое эстетическое наслаждение. Есть хорошая русская пословица: "Не бывает некрасивых женщин,бывает только мало водки" (шутка)

Of course if you can tune beatless unisons you can also tune lively unisons, but if all you can tune is lively unisons you can not tune pure unisons.

Kees, bravo. It is realy "alive unisons." I'm trying to do unisons, octaves, and especially B3 is alive. If some keys are flat I hear sounds, I'm looking for the cause and often slightly over lifting tone in choirs. Last 10 extreme bass strings(keys) do just below the total temperament

Хорошая темперация, с моей точки зрения, это не только качественно звучащие звуки в соответствии с законами классических устоев теории музыки.Это прежде всего эстетическое наслаждение исполнителя и слушателя от качественного разделения октавы на 12 равных отрезков.
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#2014389 - 01/14/13 12:01 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Bob Offline
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A "live" unison still doesn't beat, it swishes, in my opinion. Max, please listen to as many properly tuned pianos as you can. Get some classical recordings. Look at some videos. Your tunings still need improvement.

Pianos I've tuned three years ago sound better than that upright you just tuned. Oh, when using a vacuum, wear ear protection. I agree with others comments on the grand.

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#2014392 - 01/14/13 12:07 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Mark R.]
DoelKees Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mark R.
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
studies have shown that musicians like the unisons to be a little bit off.


What studies? Can you point us to them?

I know many musicians, but amongst them, I don't know a single one who prefers off unisons over clean ones.

Roger E. Kirk, "Tuning preferences for Piano Unison Groups", J. Acoust. Soc. Am. 31 (1959): 1644-48.

Reviewed in Arthur H. Benade, "Fundamentals of Musical Acoustics", 2nd ed. pp.335-336.

Kees

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#2014404 - 01/14/13 12:15 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Bob]
Maximillyan Offline
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Originally Posted By: Bob
A "live" unison still doesn't beat, it swishes, in my opinion.

I agree with you Bob. I shall improve myself in my tuning. It is arguable that there is a pure unison without beats. What is this? or an easy waves between the three strings is?
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#2014412 - 01/14/13 12:27 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Bob]
Maximillyan Offline
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Originally Posted By: Bob

Pianos I've tuned three years ago sound better than that upright you just tuned.

I glad for your piano tuning after 3 years ago. But Max and many tech. wanted listen it's. Is it possible?
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#2014444 - 01/14/13 01:14 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Emmery Offline
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Max, the unisons will couple together when they get close enough to each other. A very slight difference in frequency will average out between two or 3 strings so it is important to listen to the overall sound in the end. Many tuners have different methods to tune them. Although some tuners believe the reason for multiple strings on a note is to provide richness to the tone, its primary purpose is to boost the amplitude to similar levels as the lower single bass strings. To this effect, try and get the two and 3 string unisons to sound as one good string sounding by itself.

The first noticable thing to go out of tune on pianos are the unisons. They will get swishy unisons in short order if they are played regularly so I don't feel the need to speed up the process by tuning them that way to begin with. Besides, there is no predictable way to determine which string will drift which way so an purposeful deviation sharp or flat may turn ito a compound error if that string continues to drift in that direction. Doesn't take much to go from slow and swishy to what others would call clearly out of tune.
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#2014456 - 01/14/13 01:34 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Bob Offline
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Max, how many pianos do you tune in a day? To practice and improve, tune at least four pianos a day - or tune the same piano four times a day (change the pitch 5 cents up and down each time). Tune four pianos a day, five days a week for two months, then post another video. During that time compare your tunings to recordings and try to find someone to spend an hour teaching you.

I would expect to hear a significant improvement in two months in your tunings if you practice like that.

I know things are difficult where you live - but difficult means work harder and overcome. Looking forward to a video in 2 months from you with audible improvements.
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#2014463 - 01/14/13 01:53 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Emmery Offline
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Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Max, if someone has a cell phone around you there are many free apps for them that shows the tuning of notes in HZ. Have someone with a phone check your tuning fork or whatever your using for its accuracy. There is really no excuse for a tuned piano to be that far off from referance pitch.
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#2014684 - 01/14/13 11:16 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: DoelKees]
DoelKees Offline
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Registered: 05/01/10
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Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Originally Posted By: Mark R.
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
studies have shown that musicians like the unisons to be a little bit off.


What studies? Can you point us to them?

I know many musicians, but amongst them, I don't know a single one who prefers off unisons over clean ones.

Roger E. Kirk, "Tuning preferences for Piano Unison Groups", J. Acoust. Soc. Am. 31 (1959): 1644-48.

Reviewed in Arthur H. Benade, "Fundamentals of Musical Acoustics", 2nd ed. pp.335-336.

Kees

Probably more in appropriate in a unison tuning thread, but I uploaded the Kirk (a Baldwin employee btw) paper here. Hope it's legal and I won't end up like Aaron Swartz.

Kees

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#2014725 - 01/15/13 02:20 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Bob]
Maximillyan Offline
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Originally Posted By: Bob
Tune four pianos a day, five days a week for two months, then post another video. During that time compare your tunings to recordings and try to find someone to spend an hour teaching you.

Thank,Bob. If don't see this grand piano, then my main job is to try to restore the junk vertical. Which ultimately should resound. So before you start to tuning the "Belarus" I must first install the broken strings and put cardboard shim under pins. I'm must configure a semitone lower, otherwise there will be failure. I have not a possibility the tuning (2-3 piano) on the day .
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#2014726 - 01/15/13 02:24 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Emmery]
Maximillyan Offline
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Originally Posted By: Emmery
To this effect, try and get the two and 3 string unisons to sound as one good string sounding by itself.

I'm try do it now
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#2014730 - 01/15/13 02:29 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Mark R. Offline
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Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 2043
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
Well, Kees, just look at Kirk's first two conclusions (highlights are mine).

Quote:
(1) The most preferred tuning conditions for three string unison groups are 1 and 2 cents maximum deviation among strings.
(2) Subjects with the longest history of musical performance prefer the least detuning of unison groups. The intragroup variability of these subjects with respect to tuning preferences is less than the variability of subjects having little or no musical training.


In the article, a mean of 1.6 to 1.7 cents is given. That is essentially still a beat-free unison, and results in a better sustain.

It is nothing like the unisons in Max's video. In fact, Kirk found that a 6 cent deviation was the least preferred.

So Kirk's article can certainly not be used to condone a tuning such as Max's.


Edited by Mark R. (01/15/13 02:34 AM)
Edit Reason: added "Kees" in first line to address the right person.
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#2014733 - 01/15/13 02:37 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Mark R.]
Maximillyan Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mark R.
Well, Kees, just look at Kirk's first two conclusions (highlights are mine).
So Kirk's article can certainly not be used to condone a tuning such as Max's.

Why? have Max's a more of these cents in clip?
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#2014902 - 01/15/13 12:42 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Emmery Offline
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Registered: 04/02/08
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Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
A 2 cent deviation on A440 would result in a noticable beat every two seconds. Unisons don't couple this far away from each other either. I hardly consider this as "essentially" clean or swishy or something to pursue for a slight increase in sustain. Its a "fail" as far as a unison goes....in my humble opinion anyways. (added) I know some customers of mine would call me to touch up a piano that displays this amount of disparity on unisons, or, stop using a tech that can do no better.


Edited by Emmery (01/15/13 12:47 PM)
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#2014906 - 01/15/13 12:48 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Mark R.]
DoelKees Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mark R.

It is nothing like the unisons in Max's video. In fact, Kirk found that a 6 cent deviation was the least preferred.

So Kirk's article can certainly not be used to condone a tuning such as Max's.

*Sigh*. Nobody has said that.

The fourth rule for replying is:

4) Reply to what the poster wrote, not to what you imagine the poster was thinking.

Kees

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#2014909 - 01/15/13 12:51 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Olek Online   content
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The most aggressive the tone is the most decoupling can help to lower the abrupness of the attack .

Then the level of ih of a piano allow more or less of this "opening" without the tone audibly beating.

The 2 cts difference is probably not always producing the beat level according to theory
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#2014918 - 01/15/13 01:06 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Emmery Offline
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Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
I guess there are both musicians and tuners who differ in their opinions of what a good unison should sound like. For the latter, it never used to be like this in the past. Some regard perfect unison clarity much like they do the state of pregnancy, it either exists, or it doesn't. Some consider the slight disparity of inharmonicity in the full spectrum of each string enough of a richness to the tone by itself and it requires no additional help with deliberate detuning. To the same effect, some regard the amount of sustain on the piano as sufficient, without the need for trying to induce more. Most likely of all, some tuners who can't tune nice clear unisons try and cover their tracks by suggesting the shortcoming is intentional or by design.
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#2014935 - 01/15/13 01:43 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
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Registered: 11/07/07
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Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: Bob
Tune four pianos a day, five days a week for two months, then post another video. During that time compare your tunings to recordings and try to find someone to spend an hour teaching you.

Thank,Bob. If don't see this grand piano, then my main job is to try to restore the junk vertical. Which ultimately should resound. So before you start to tuning the "Belarus" I must first install the broken strings and put cardboard shim under pins. I'm must configure a semitone lower, otherwise there will be failure. I have not a possibility the tuning (2-3 piano) on the day .


Why will there be failure??? Because of your cardboard fix??? Then, fix it correctly, with larger tuning pins.

I wonder how much longer this thread will continue. It's so full of crap it isn't even funny.

Emmery is right. 2 cents off is a LOT. Bad tuners can't hear it. That's why the bad tuners continue arguing with the good tuners that can hear it.

Bad tuners, tune pianos 1/4 tone flat on purpose, thinking nothing of it and then make all sorts of excuses for why it has to be flat instead of fixing the problem and putting the piano on pitch.

Bad tuners make excuses for why unisons are horribly out of tune but, refuse to listen to good technicians advice on what to do to correct it. This is nuts!
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#2014952 - 01/15/13 02:12 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Emmery]
Olek Online   content
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The thing is in the efficient use of the energy provided by the attack .

I feel that at some point there is only a huge "crack" full of aggressive noise.

This mean a lot of energy loss if that noise is allowed to keep its explisive behaviour , which is not really natural to the piano. If it where it would stay put, and the piano would not sound better a few hours later.

Comon, an actual tuner can tune a piano so it stay in tune for a few hours, I presume !

What I regret is that, among top experienced tuners, so little oc them have an analytic mind. Many have a good analytic ear, but the analyse is done whithout conscious thinking nor comparaison.

Many tuners I know tune with 3 different strings, so to have a maximum brillancy; I am way quieter when compared.

For some time I tuned "absolute" , as a result, too hard tone and "too clear" comments , from time to time.

I believe that the ETD s did a lot of harm to the unison tuning, strangely.

But in the end it is as much a voicing question than a tuning question, that is why there are so much differences, the spectrum is supposed to vary with power level, if it does not, or not enough, the tuner can be pushed in the wrong direction.
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#2014966 - 01/15/13 02:34 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
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In the end, the piano is out of tune.

In the end, the piano is off from pitch by at least 1/4 of a tone.

In the end, the voicing is terrible.

We have at least 3 different things going on here at the same time. An out of tune piano. An off from pitch piano, and bad voicing.

Either way you look at it. The piano is out of tune!

Good technicians can hear if a piano is out of tune immediately, or, if the note is held down for 30 seconds, or if the note is struck 2 or 3 times in a row, it does not matter. If a good tuner has a good ear, there is no room for argument. Only a bad tuner argues.

I tune with whatever method I so choose that brings me, the most satisfaction but, that method always, I repeat, always, has pure unisons. Impure unisons are not satisfactory. How many times must this be repeated in here?
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#2014982 - 01/15/13 03:12 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Emmery Offline
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Energy/shhmenergy. If the pianist wants more energy in the sound, they simply add some downweight/speed in their touch. The attack is such a short period of time that few people even make notice of it, much like the thunk you hear from the key a few thousandths of a second before you hear the note....we tune it out because we tend to focus on the actual tone that follows. There is a nice fine balance of energy a properly sized piano for its environment will produce. With the way inverse square law of sound and distance works, there is no way to make everybody in an audience hear the same thing anyways. If I hear the opening single Db note of Liszt's Consolation 3 carried over several bars and its clean it gives depth to the RH pattern. If it wobbles even slightly, it interferes in an incredibly annoying way with the tempo of the right hand. It adds nothing energy/sustain wise that a little heavier touch could not produce without the swishy annoyance.


Edited by Emmery (01/15/13 03:12 PM)
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#2014999 - 01/15/13 03:47 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Olek Online   content
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Well I am not talking about the recording I could not stand listening more than afew seconds.

Pianist have limited amount of energy availeable with touch, due to action saturation.

If you hear the key before the tone, you have not enough aftertouch (if you hear the tone before, you eventually have too much, and the energy of the key bump cannot add anything to tone)

The attack is so annoying for the tuner that the ear close and avoid listening at that moment, it is part of the tuner's training to get used to it. one of the most employed method to be able to tune with relaxed ears is to play the note repeatedly, this allow to tune sooner.
Another is to wear earplugs
another is to play softly enough

If the tuner is able to tune sooner (by listening more early in the attack) he begin to be able to preserve some energy of the attack for the tone, less is lost.

I agree it is a very short moment of course, but it can be thickened or stay thin.

When the tuning is opened the attack is discrete, but the raise in energy is better immediately after it and the dynamics is optimum.

If the attack is too much constrained I feel the attack as if it is a bawl that rebound at fast speed between twoo walls , loose energy and then only allow for a clear sustain.

Then the energy level left is lower than if the attack is pushed in the tone with a strong coupling at last at the 2nd partial level.

If the wanted effect is to have a huge concentration of tone immediately, no problem but it is OK for Jazz, the tone when played strong send too much partials at once, it sound like a trumpet note attack,brassy, witha huge "klang" that occurs soon in the dynamic plague.







Edited by Kamin (01/15/13 04:05 PM)
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#2015009 - 01/15/13 04:11 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Phil D Offline
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Isaac if you're not talking about the recording then this discussion belongs elsewhere. It is extremely difficult for anything constructive to come out of Max posting here, and it is made a lot worse by totally irrelevant discussions carrying on in his threads.

Some very charitable people are trying to help Max improve, but he seems to be quite a stubborn guy. He's been doing this for a long time without anybody to tell him it is wrong, on here we bombard him with so much information, in a language he barely speaks, and we expect him to improve?

It's quite horrible to watch him get ripped to shreds by unsympathetic professionals. People simply can't comprehend how big the gap is between his and our experiences.

Max, keep working on those unisons! Make sure you are using your mutes so you are only tuning one string while listening to another.
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#2015102 - 01/15/13 08:02 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Emmery Offline
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Phil, I do agree with you that people should leave out the crude/rude labels when the topic at hand is Max's tuning, not his character.
Isaac, perhaps your level of tuning has got to the point where you feel experimental or the need to pursue something beyond what you consider a plain good tuning. Your obviously satisfying some internal need for perfection as you envision it. I don't agree with you about a unison needing any tweaking more that just sounding like the same darn note, but just a little louder with that extra string(s) beside it.

I see the piano as a single purpose instrument, not a synthesizer in this respect, and feel that it doesn't require tweaking past its own natural tone (if that tone is pleasant). I think however it would be distracting and counterproductive for a neophyte like Max to aim for anything other than getting a clean sounding note with a unison.

I have never in my life heard a top notch tuner feel brazen enough to negatively criticise a tuning because they felt the unisons were "too clean". Yeah, I've heard of so and so big name tuners giving a lecture on messing with unisons at the annual cheese melts, but no tech ever lost a job or their credibility by getting a 3 string unison to sound like 1. That is what Max should strive for.

When we started learning tuning at college the first thing we learned was unisons, and we worked on them until the day we left...it is probably the hardest thing in tuning to perfect and remain consistant with. Even to this day, if I find myself lingering on something too long in a tuning, its usually a troublesome unison, not a temperament/octave or a stretch. There was a point early on that I thought a unison was good and my teacher would come in, twist the hammer this way and that and it sounded better. It is one of the easiest things in a tuning to feel misleadingly content with. After all, you have to start moving a pin around to determine if it can be any better and at the same time you feel a strong need to move on to the next note in order to finish.


Edited by Emmery (01/15/13 09:02 PM)
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#2015107 - 01/15/13 08:09 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Emmery]
accordeur Offline
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Originally Posted By: Emmery
Phil, I do agree with you that people should leave out the crude/rude labels when the topic at hand is Max's tuning, not his character.
Isaac, perhaps your level of tuning has got to the point where you feel experimental or the need to pursue something beyond what you consider a plain good tuning. Your obviously satisfying some internal need for perfection as you envision it. I don't agree with you about a unison needing any tweaking more that just sounding like the same darn note, but just a little louder with that extra string(s) beside it. I see the piano as a single purpose instrument, not a synthesizer in this respect, and feel that it doesn't require tweaking past its own natural tone (if that tone is pleasant). I think however it would be distracting and counterproductive for a neophyte like Max to aim for anything other than getting a clean sounding note with a unison. I have never in my life heard a top notch tuner feel brazen enough to negatively criticise a tuning because they felt the unisons were "too clean". Yeah, I've heard of so and so big name tuners giving a lecture on messing with unisons at the annual cheese melts, but no tech ever lost a job or their credibility by getting a 3 string unison to sound like 1. That is what Max should strive for. When we started learning tuning at college the first thing we learned was unisons, and we worked on them until the day we left...it is probably the hardest thing in tuning to perfect and remain consistant with. Even to this day, if I find myself lingering on something too long in a tuning, its usually a troublesome unison, not a temperament/octave or a stretch. There was a point early on that I thought a unison was good and my teacher would come in, twist the hammer this way and that and it sounded better. It is one of the easiest things in a tuning to feel misleadingly content with. After all, you have to start moving a pin around to determine if it can be any better and at the same time you feel a strong need to move on to the next note in order to finish.


That is very well said!

P.S. Paragraphs would be nice as well.
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#2015169 - 01/15/13 10:22 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Jerry Groot RPT]
Maximillyan Offline
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Originally Posted By: Jerry Groot RPT
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: Bob
Tune four pianos a day, five days a week for two months, then post another video. During that time compare your tunings to recordings and try to find someone to spend an hour teaching you.

Thank,Bob. If don't see this grand piano, then my main job is to try to restore the junk vertical. Which ultimately should resound. So before you start to tuning the "Belarus" I must first install the broken strings and put cardboard shim under pins. I'm must configure a semitone lower, otherwise there will be failure. I have not a possibility the tuning (2-3 piano) on the day .


Why will there be failure??? Because of your cardboard fix??? Then, fix it correctly, with larger tuning pins.


Only the application of corrugated cardboard shim is possible make quality and long to provide the necessary friction between the pins and the pinblock. The use of oversize pin copse is deeply misleading and it's harm for piano
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#2015178 - 01/15/13 10:43 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Emmery]
Maximillyan Offline
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Originally Posted By: Emmery
I guess there are both musicians and tuners who differ in their opinions of what a good unison should sound like. For the latter, it never used to be like this in the past. Some regard perfect unison clarity much like they do the state of pregnancy, it either exists, or it doesn't. Some consider the slight disparity of inharmonicity in the full spectrum of each string enough of a richness to the tone by itself and it requires no additional help with deliberate detuning. To the same effect, some regard the amount of sustain on the piano as sufficient, without the need for trying to induce more. Most likely of all, some tuners who can't tune nice clear unisons try and cover their tracks by suggesting the shortcoming is intentional or by design.

Max tries, but still does not work, but he is full of energy and enthusiasm to move on. He must find a clean unison. However, " A people see the taste and color is different "
"На вкус и цвет, товарища нет".
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#2015256 - 01/16/13 02:59 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Withindale Offline
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Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Max tries, but still does not work, but he is full of energy and enthusiasm to move on. He must find a clean unison. However, " A people see the taste and color is different". "На вкус и цвет, товарища нет".

The clearest explanation of unison tuning I have seen begins, Gabriel Weinreich (I hope I am spelling it right), published "The Coupled Motion Of Piano Strings" in the late 70's. The gist of his research was that the coupled motion required, at times, that the strings not be tuned to the exact same pitch in order to produce the longest sustain and clearest sounding tone.

The full post is here.
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#2015261 - 01/16/13 03:14 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: accordeur]
rxd Offline
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Originally Posted By: accordeur
Originally Posted By: Emmery
Phil, I do agree with you that people should leave out the crude/rude labels when the topic at hand is Max's tuning, not his character.
Isaac, perhaps your level of tuning has got to the point where you feel experimental or the need to pursue something beyond what you consider a plain good tuning. Your obviously satisfying some internal need for perfection as you envision it. I don't agree with you about a unison needing any tweaking more that just sounding like the same darn note, but just a little louder with that extra string(s) beside it. I see the piano as a single purpose instrument, not a synthesizer in this respect, and feel that it doesn't require tweaking past its own natural tone (if that tone is pleasant). I think however it would be distracting and counterproductive for a neophyte like Max to aim for anything other than getting a clean sounding note with a unison. I have never in my life heard a top notch tuner feel brazen enough to negatively criticise a tuning because they felt the unisons were "too clean". Yeah, I've heard of so and so big name tuners giving a lecture on messing with unisons at the annual cheese melts, but no tech ever lost a job or their credibility by getting a 3 string unison to sound like 1. That is what Max should strive for. When we started learning tuning at college the first thing we learned was unisons, and we worked on them until the day we left...it is probably the hardest thing in tuning to perfect and remain consistant with. Even to this day, if I find myself lingering on something too long in a tuning, its usually a troublesome unison, not a temperament/octave or a stretch. There was a point early on that I thought a unison was good and my teacher would come in, twist the hammer this way and that and it sounded better. It is one of the easiest things in a tuning to feel misleadingly content with. After all, you have to start moving a pin around to determine if it can be any better and at the same time you feel a strong need to move on to the next note in order to finish.


That is very well said!

P.S. Paragraphs would be nice as well.


+1.

In such an elegant stream of cohesive thought, I can forgive paragraphure (paragraphageing?)...paragravery. That's the word.
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#2015310 - 01/16/13 07:19 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Olek Online   content
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Thanks for your interest gentlemen

Emmery I agree that you can describe an unison as hearing one string, I would add more or less thick.

I confirm you can tune non beating unisons and have a bland too clear tone.

It is not a question of beats nor "too clean"

An unison is supoosed to be clean, it is a question of life in tone, and musicality .

Maxim is not a beginner tuner, as I see it he write since 2 years on that forum , and recived a lot of help from most of us.

If Max did not understood yet and hear what is an unison, probably he better look for other occupations than tuning, or only focus on the repairs, regulation, etc.

An unison between 2 strings is like railroads, they go all along the same direction without touching one another.

I suspect Max does not want to WORK tuning, as he may have some results if he did follow a little the advices given.


What I write is for general purpose and for anyone interested, When I hear some tunings I know I can talk of unison and not only that, indeed. Musicians need the tuner to be an artist himself (while I dont consider myself as so creative I mostly want my tuning to hold for the longer possible time, and to sound clear, full and dynamic)

It is indeed easy to finish a hair aside the nicer tone, because of ear's fatigue, bad analysis of tone, too much straightening.

Then the piano because of its own voice will correct that to a point.

I found advantageaous to install the tuning in a tone which is natural to the piano, not to force it one way of the other as you think

Between top tuners the unison cn tone slightly differntly, musicaisn recognize that, and others tuners too, as ther is always an "level of opening" parameter, and a "level of energy at the attack also"

Not only avoicing question, as asked to Pierre Laurent Aimard the tuner in the movie Pianomania " do you wnat the tone to go straight and strong to the ceiling , or do you want it to fullfill the place and go around ?" (PL Aymard answered "both" wink )
What he talk of is attack managment , plus voicing, but you dont change the whole voicing for a concert, ypou modify the regulation so the timing of the hammer bumb is more or less synchro with the key bottoming

So you can obtain 2 perfectly clear unisons, one with a thicker attack and more warm specra, one with a dicrete attack and enlarged specra.

You can strenghten the fundamental plus all the partials at once, but then the crown of the hammer must be lively.

On an old piano with hard strings , not enough partials, adn much differnce in specrta between each string, you can "hide the defects" by tuning all the notes the same with a similar "woosh" in the tone, that help to mask the beats the strings will produce if you try to tune them too clear, but this is an extreme case.

I will record experiments someday.

Before ETD nobody would argue about a few cts, pianos where tuned and nobody complained.

regards


Edited by Kamin (01/16/13 07:40 AM)
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#2015322 - 01/16/13 07:45 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Olek Online   content
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Emmery said " It is one of the easiest things in a tuning to feel misleadingly content with. After all, you have to start moving a pin around to determine if it can be any better and at the same time you feel a strong need to move on to the next note in order to finish."

Yes I agree that ear fatigue, position, can lend to misleading unison.

That is why I find so important to be able to analyse and organize it.

Hopefully you are not obliged to "turn" the pin to check for the quality of your unison, pushing/pulling on the tuning lever is generally enough (unless rendering is so poor)
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#2015393 - 01/16/13 10:31 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Withindale]
Maximillyan Offline
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Originally Posted By: Withindale
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Max tries, but still does not work, but he is full of energy and enthusiasm to move on. He must find a clean unison. However, " A people see the taste and color is different". "На вкус и цвет, товарища нет".

The clearest explanation of unison tuning I have seen begins, Gabriel Weinreich (I hope I am spelling it right), published "The Coupled Motion Of Piano Strings" in the late 70's. The gist of his research was that the coupled motion required, at times, that the strings not be tuned to the exact same pitch in order to produce the longest sustain and clearest sounding tone.

The full post is here.

Thank Withindale,Weinreich unisons(wasTuneoff)!
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#2015409 - 01/16/13 11:04 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Olek]
Maximillyan Offline
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Originally Posted By: Kamin

An unison between 2 strings is like railroads, they go all along the same direction without touching one another.

It's more of an ideal. In reality unison must be "live" with a barely perceptible beats. This is not the fact that the tuner can not hear, he just wants to paint the sounds. There are also objective factors uneven unison:
1 Poor hold pin
2 the differential cross section of strings
3 additional waves adjacent strings in the chorus
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#2015419 - 01/16/13 11:22 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Olek]
Maximillyan Offline
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Originally Posted By: Kamin

I suspect Max does not want to WORK tuning, as he may have some results if he did follow a little the advices given.


Max asks the people of good will, if it is possible to listen to the next clip of the same concert. I think Mozart will identify inaccuracies temperament. Your constructive criticism will allow Max's professional development
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#2015420 - 01/16/13 11:22 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
BDB Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: Kamin

An unison between 2 strings is like railroads, they go all along the same direction without touching one another.

It's more of an ideal. In reality unison must be "live" with a barely perceptible beats. This is not the fact that the tuner can not hear, he just wants to paint the sounds. There are also objective factors uneven unison:
1 Poor hold pin
2 the differential cross section of strings
3 additional waves adjacent strings in the chorus


All of these are excuses for not doing a good job.

1. There are few pianos that hold so poorly that the unisons cannot be tuned properly. You can usually see the tuning hammer turn on those when you let it go.
2. There should be no difference in the cross section of strings, and even if there is, it should not affect the tuning enough to be audible.
3. The difference between adjacent strings in a choir is what you are trying to eliminate.

The main reasons unisons will be as far off from exact as yours are, are lack of skill and care by the tuner! You need to be able to tune unisons as exactly as possible.

A good way to test for unisons is to listen to the beats in a moderately fast beating interval with a single string, and then with the string that you have tuned in unison with it. If the beats change, your unison is not good enough.

Enough people have told you your tuning is not adequate. Stop arguing and start working on improving your tuning!
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#2015432 - 01/16/13 11:38 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: BDB]
Maximillyan Offline
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Registered: 06/12/11
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Originally Posted By: BDB
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
[quote=Kamin]
An unison between 2 strings is like railroads, they go all along the same direction without touching one another.

Enough people have told you your tuning is not adequate.

"not adequate" is insulting expression. Please be condescending Max's. "Tuning the Max-not made perfect" is correct
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#2015438 - 01/16/13 11:51 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Olek Online   content
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yes , beats may not be audible, it is easy to be confused between beats and coupling 2 strings (as the coupling rarely can occur for all the partials and the fundamental, some "move" can be perceived)

There is yet a large space where a beat between 2 strings can stay unnoticed, because it is at the same speed that the lowering of the strength of the note in time.

That is why what allows to hear unison is more the energetic answer of the note. Then if some beat remain it may be chased .

It oblige to use the playing hand precisely and to perceive well the rebound of the hammer that say to the ear : "listen, open"

beats in unison are heard even from far, the quality of tone is "greasy"
,
It is possible to have the partials "caught" by the fundamental that mean, partials couple in the fundamental. generally the note is then moaning a little and the dynamic levels out too soon.

It is better to couple the partials, the fundamental have then a better tone.

None of those solutions produce audible beats. the tone projects out of the piano, clear, strong and focused.

I believe that it is basically the delay between the coupling at fundamental level and the one at the 2nd partial level that is worked, the instrument does the rest of the job itself.

Bad voicing is a big hassle for tuning.

Laquer on the strike zone makes lot of trouble. also the acidity of tone is enhanced by the too low pitch (iH raise)

Very difficult to tune correctly a piano with that tone. at last a strong brushing of the hammers with a metal brush should be done before tuning, but those hammers are shot, probably hard rock because of impregnation.

No dynamic (playing strong or lightly)
No lenght of tone

probable huge imprints make the hammer "slap" the strings.
There is no other choice than brush the edges of the imprints so to have some fluffy felt that will adbsorb a little the extra partials produced. Softening the zone on the outer of the imprints is even better (plus the fluffing of the felt)

The piano begin to correct itself in the second part of the concert, unison follow the most direct path to equilibrium, hence the tone is slightly better.

I cannot say for the temperament or tuning as it sound so much out of tune, also because of the pitch.


Edited by Kamin (01/16/13 12:35 PM)
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#2015452 - 01/16/13 12:18 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
BDB Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: BDB
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
[quote=Kamin]
An unison between 2 strings is like railroads, they go all along the same direction without touching one another.

Enough people have told you your tuning is not adequate.

"not adequate" is insulting expression. Please be condescending Max's. "Tuning the Max-not made perfect" is correct


"Not adequate" is an honest assessment. What you call tuning is an insult to the pianists who have to put up with it. It is an insult to those who have sent you equipment and have tried to help you, and "insult" may be too soft a term. You could be an outright fraud.
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#2015460 - 01/16/13 12:37 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Olek Online   content
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No way to tune successful unison on such an instrument anyway, voicing may be done first.
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#2015476 - 01/16/13 01:05 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Johnkie Online   content
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I must disagree with you there Kamin. You first need to tune the best possible tuning before there's any point in addressing voicing. As to the subject matter of this thread ... If Max actually did tune this grand for the concert, I must admit that he has most certainly improved.

The tuning remains pretty dreadful compared to a normal concert tuning, and as far as commenting about temperament .... it's one that I have never heard before.

Max has far to go and is best advised to try listening to all the good advice being imparted by tuners that really can tune, instead of constantly arguing and promoting cardboard fixes.

If Max really wants comments on a temperament then for goodness sake tune the initial 12 notes and make a video to demonstrate the relationship of intervals.
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#2015480 - 01/16/13 01:15 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Johnkie]
Olek Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Johnkie
I must disagree with you there Kamin. You first need to tune the best possible tuning before there's any point in addressing voicing.


Well if tuning hurt your ears too much it is really difficult. Of course you may voice after tuning (you cannot really voice an untuned piano) but you certainly see what I mean, no sustain, no dynamics, tuning is really limited then and have to be done again after voicing

I agree that there is an improvement, it was not really audible in the first video, it was horrible, to listen.

The pins seem to be set even if possibly not strong


Edited by Kamin (01/16/13 01:27 PM)
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#2015535 - 01/16/13 03:01 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
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Originally Posted By: BDB
"Not adequate" is an honest assessment. What you call tuning is an insult to the pianists who have to put up with it. It is an insult to those who have sent you equipment and have tried to help you, and "insult" may be too soft a term. You could be an outright fraud.


The equipment sent to Max did not involve anyone but myself and a fellow in Sweden.

The below was posted by Max on January 14th. It seems to me from what I read apparently the instrument was low pitch the day previous to the concert and some strings were replaced.

Originally Posted By: Emmery
Dear Emmery, I am glad to receive your message. I sorry that you have to devote a lot of time analyzing my clip's tuning.
I took tuning a grand because really wanted to do it. In our country town no professional piano tuner and music school administrator asked me made temperament. My fee was $ 13. «Bluthner" for many years set (A = 438). Prior to the concert was less than a day. I began to move with this tone, because he was afraid to break the strings. Replace torn, there is no opportunity here. After the concert, I checked temperament. I did not catch the big differences for yourself. Fa3 note was slightly lower. Good not sounded as H4, F# 4 so. I did a temperament as I could. I will heed the advice of tech. experts for increase their own skills.


If the instrument was pitched corrected a couple of weeks previous to the concert, and then fine tuned the day before I suspect the initial recording would have come out sound better than it has.
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#2015548 - 01/16/13 03:11 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
BDB Online   content
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One should not make excuses for a recording posted as an example of how well someone tunes. If it is a lousy tuning and you know it, there is no need for feedback. The only tunings that should be posted for feedback are one's best.
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#2015555 - 01/16/13 03:22 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
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Max does not have any peers nor does he have a mentor. What he does have is intermittent access to this forum.

If stomping on the guy is viewed as a pleasurable and stimulating experience then Max is not the only one I feel compassion for.
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#2015611 - 01/16/13 04:22 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
BDB Online   content
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It would be better if he learned to criticize himself, but Max needs to accept criticism rather than being insulted by it, and being insulting about it. His improvement would be much better, and I would find more pleasure and stimulation in helping him if his attitude were better.
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#2015644 - 01/16/13 05:16 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Phil D Offline
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His cantankerousness reminds me of you, BDB... wink

But you're right. Unfortunately he's been doing this a long time without having any peers, and is very proud of what he does.

Teaching him to tune properly across a massive language barrier over the internet is a big task!
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#2015669 - 01/16/13 05:44 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
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Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada

Originally Posted By: BDB
It would be better if he learned to criticize himself, but Max needs to accept criticism rather than being insulted by it, and being insulting about it. His improvement would be much better, and I would find more pleasure and stimulation in helping him if his attitude were better.


On free forums, I assist without expectation or conditions attached. If there are certain conditions to having involvement then perhaps a re- assessment is necessary on your part.
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#2015697 - 01/16/13 06:27 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Emmery Offline
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A couple suggestions, first for Max...

Keep working at it. Study some more about tuning, you still have a long way to go. Ignore insults. If you are going to post a tuning, maybe record a before and after tape. It lets people put things in better perspective of what conditions the pianos are in that you face. I worked in parts of eastern europe 20 years ago where I lifted the lid on the piano and I swear, it could have flown away on its own from all the moths that came out. Missing or rusted strings, felt held in place with snot, shoelace/pully trap work ect.... A shoemaker was my only source for materials.

For others, maybe follow the golden rule. People from Germany don't come here to this site and ridicule Y'all for the N.A. version of a half a**ed repair, laugh at the powder wig temperaments, or comment on digital spinner crutch tuning clips. They prefer to sit around a table and spray beer out of their noses laughing instead.
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#2015719 - 01/16/13 07:06 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
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Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
Quote:

Max asks the people of good will, if it is possible to listen to the next clip of the same concert. I think Mozart will identify inaccuracies temperament. Your constructive criticism will allow Max's professional development


Max doesn't accept constructive criticism. Instead, he gives it.... to us... The people he is asking for help. For example, like using cardboard to fix a loose tuning pin instead of a larger sized pin, then tuning the piano a semi tone flat because it won't take the pitch raise? He tells us that a larger sized pin will do damage to the hole. A person like that is not going to get much respect from us and we, should not be expected to give it either. But I can, leave this thread and Max to his own demise, whatever that might be and I will.

Kamin says Max has been in here for 2 years now so, he's more experienced. 2 years gives experience? I've known people that have been tuning pianos for 30 years and they still can't tune.

So how many years haven't some of the rest of us been tuning? Me? Since I was 12. That makes it 45 years this spring. I should be reallllllllllllllllllly good by now eh??? haha! smile

If a person wants constructive and objectionable criticism and asks for it, then that same person had better accept it rather than argue with people that are telling him that his tuning needs improvement. Don't tell me that it sounds good and that out of tune unison's sound okay when they do not. Because we will not agree.

So Max, if you want people to be nice to you? Be nice to them.... OK?
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#2015729 - 01/16/13 07:20 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
accordeur Offline
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Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 1207
Loc: Qubec, Canada
I wanted to help Max at first. I even put up a youtube video to show how to rebush a flange.

One tech even sent him a hammer. His videos afterwards, he was still using his t-bar.

The language barrier is what kept me hoping that he was genuinely interested in improving.

Now, language barrier or not, geez.

Max, I never get to the end of your videos. I don't understand a word, you look like you are teaching a lesson, and you obviously are not good enough to do that.

Listen to the good advice that is given here. Be grateful, ask questions.

Who knows? You started a topic and some of us are still writing.

All the best.

Jean
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#2015823 - 01/16/13 10:40 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
DoelKees Offline
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Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1760
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: Kamin

I suspect Max does not want to WORK tuning, as he may have some results if he did follow a little the advices given.


Max asks the people of good will, if it is possible to listen to the next clip of the same concert. I think Mozart will identify inaccuracies temperament. Your constructive criticism will allow Max's professional development

Speaking as a musician with a lifelong interest in tuning, not as a piano technician, I think this sounds fine. Given the state of the piano, which is not up to USA concert standards, it is not clear if you could do better with just tuning (as opposed to revoicing etc). I believe Kamin from France believes this too.

When I listen I am more concerned with the excessive tempi and the seriousness of the playing. After all Mozart was a silly drunk, and his compositions show it. It should not be played as if it was profound. (Warning: peculiar personal opinion.)

There are definitely unisons which stand out as being "bad". But as you mentioned before, this can be due to the "cross sections" not matching, meaning false beats. I can (and will if requested politely) post a unison A3 on my piano, which sounds worse than the "bad" unisons in your recording. Yet if 5 top piano tuners from the Western world would spend 3 hours on it they would not be able to improve it. (They are of course not allowed to replace the strings.)

Why? Because the strings don't match (what the DBD anymous poster said "should not be so").

Now listening to the Mozart I can hardly believe this is the same tuning as you posted before because it sounds so much better. But it may be my own mind that likes music. The compositions played in the first video of this concert I do no consider to be music. This is my (admittedly eccentric) opinion.

More generally I think if you had not tuned that Blüthner there would have been no concert. So obviously you did a good thing. Did it have 4 strings in the upper octave? Did you tune those too? The piano sounds worse to me in the upper octaves.

Finally, did the concert organizer and piano teachers of the players give you any feedback on the tuning?

After all a piano tuner should make the customer happy, and that is the most important thing.

Another good result of your post is that Dan Silverwood made some good posts. I thought I hated him, but this made me change my mind.

Tongue in cheek of course on the latter remarks.

Kees

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#2015826 - 01/16/13 10:46 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Johnkie]
Maximillyan Offline
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Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Johnkie
If Max actually did tune this grand for the concert, I must admit that he has most certainly improved.

Thank,Johnkie for good words and max works
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#2015834 - 01/16/13 10:57 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: DoelKees]
Maximillyan Offline
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Registered: 06/12/11
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Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: Kamin

I suspect Max does not want to WORK tuning, as he may have some results if he did follow a little the advices given.


Max asks the people of good will, if it is possible to listen to the next clip of the same concert. I think Mozart will identify inaccuracies temperament. Your constructive criticism will allow Max's professional development



Now listening to the Mozart I can hardly believe this is the same tuning as you posted before because it sounds so much better.

Thank,Kees.I'm shall try and develop skills
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#2015843 - 01/16/13 11:17 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Jerry Groot RPT]
Maximillyan Offline
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Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Jerry Groot RPT
Quote:

Max asks the people of good will, if it is possible to listen to the next clip of the same concert. I think Mozart will identify inaccuracies temperament. Your constructive criticism will allow Max's professional development


So Max, if you want people to be nice to you? Be nice to them.... OK?

Max, always pleasure with all
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#2015871 - 01/17/13 12:59 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
rxd Offline
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Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1766
Loc: London, England
Not only has Max improved in 2 years but, in looking back through his original threads, they have been an incredible catalyst for change in all of us.

Max was met with incredibly parochial self righteous condemnation from some posters. It became clear very early that the only way was through education.

This attempt at education has tempered those condemning attitudes, those same people are now posting advice and encouragement.

It has been said that travel broadens the mind. The cultural differences between all of us that were brought out and explored in the process of helping Max has quietly and gradually changed all of our attitudes. It has been a journey in itself without having to go anywhere.

Thanks, Max, for being so delightfully annoying, arrogant, stubborn, sensitive,.....

Something had to change.... and we did.

Here's to its continuing



Edited by rxd (01/17/13 01:10 AM)
_________________________
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"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2016043 - 01/17/13 10:27 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: rxd]
Maximillyan Offline
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Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: rxd

It has been said that travel broadens the mind. The cultural differences between all of us that were brought out and explored in the process of helping Max has quietly and gradually changed all of our attitudes. It has been a journey in itself without having to go anywhere.
Thanks, Max, for being so delightfully annoying, arrogant, stubborn, sensitive,.....

Not all pianos in the forgotten by God Kazakhstan to tuning in the right tone. However, the message rxd is a philosophical essay, mobilizes the presence of mind of Max.
Max is very happy that him was able its modest presence on the forum make a live stream in the discussions every themes.
Max will work and he shall listen all
My respect to the participants in our forum
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A=440
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#2016050 - 01/17/13 10:41 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3612
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: rxd

It has been said that travel broadens the mind. The cultural differences between all of us that were brought out and explored in the process of helping Max has quietly and gradually changed all of our attitudes. It has been a journey in itself without having to go anywhere.
Thanks, Max, for being so delightfully annoying, arrogant, stubborn, sensitive,.....

Not all pianos in the forgotten by God Kazakhstan to tuning in the right tone. However, the message rxd is a philosophical essay, mobilizes the presence of mind of Max.
Max is very happy that him was able its modest presence on the forum make a live stream in the discussions every themes.
Max will work and he shall listen all
My respect to the participants in our forum


I've never met anybody from Kazakhstan, but I always wanted to know how Kazakhstanis feel about the movie "Borat"? Are you angry about it?

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#2016057 - 01/17/13 10:53 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: ando]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: ando
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: rxd

It has been said that travel broadens the mind. The cultural differences between all of us that were brought out and explored in the process of helping Max has quietly and gradually changed all of our attitudes. It has been a journey in itself without having to go anywhere.
Thanks, Max, for being so delightfully annoying, arrogant, stubborn, sensitive,.....

Not all pianos in the forgotten by God Kazakhstan to tuning in the right tone. However, the message rxd is a philosophical essay, mobilizes the presence of mind of Max.
Max is very happy that him was able its modest presence on the forum make a live stream in the discussions every themes.
Max will work and he shall listen all
My respect to the participants in our forum


I've never met anybody from Kazakhstan, but I always wanted to know how Kazakhstanis feel about the movie "Borat"? Are you angry about it?


ando,I personally have not seen the movie, just a few excerpts. I'm not offended by Borat, art lies in the fact that to make people think from joke. To tell the truth, the life in Kazakhstan is much "comical than this travesty"
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#2016069 - 01/17/13 11:18 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: ando]
AndyJ Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/29/12
Posts: 219
Loc: Near Dayton, Ohio USA
Originally Posted By: ando

I've never met anybody from Kazakhstan, but I always wanted to know how Kazakhstanis feel about the movie "Borat"? Are you angry about it?

A couple of years ago I caught up with a cousin who immigrated from Moscow in the Seventies. She grew up in Kazakhstan thanks to Stalin's anti-Semitic purges, but eventually her father was able to reclaim his appointment as a professor of music at Moscow State University. She's a very proper and respectable lady and I didn't dare ask her about Borat. Of course the joke in the film is meant to be that Baron-Cohen's victims are so ignorant, but I'm sure a lot of people never catch on to that subtlety.

Andy

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#2016079 - 01/17/13 11:34 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: DoelKees]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: Kamin

I suspect Max does not want to WORK tuning, as he may have some results if he did follow a little the advices given.


Max asks the people of good will, if it is possible to listen to the next clip of the same concert. I think Mozart will identify inaccuracies temperament. Your constructive criticism will allow Max's professional development


More generally I think if you had not tuned that Blüthner there would have been no concert. So obviously you did a good thing. Did it have 4 strings in the upper octave? Did you tune those too? The piano sounds worse to me in the upper octaves.

Finally, did the concert organizer and piano teachers of the players give you any feedback on the tuning?

Hi,Kees. The concert was held to the weather."Show must go on". This grand, how to express their feeling of one of the teachers of piano last time sounded like far in 1982, when visited Uralsk was moscow's tuner. I was pleased to hear the words of appreciation from the audience, and most importantly from artists of Chrismas concert .
Indeed I tuning alivkvont fourth string, which is higher than the other one octave higher. I did it intuitively, some of them were so configured. I tried not to make a mistake and I did pulling the string an octave higher. Maybe I'm wrong to do this?
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#2016085 - 01/17/13 11:43 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: AndyJ]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: AndyJ
Originally Posted By: ando

I've never met anybody from Kazakhstan, but I always wanted to know how Kazakhstanis feel about the movie "Borat"? Are you angry about it?

Of course the joke in the film is meant to be that Baron-Cohen's victims are so ignorant, but I'm sure a lot of people never catch on to that subtlety.

Andy,Borat and Kazakhstan do not know about each other it's to happiness
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#2016091 - 01/17/13 11:58 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1766
Loc: London, England
The hall in your videos intrigues me. Is it a school hall, church hall, town hall??

As in most places, there are many different cultural levels. Your area of Kazakhstan doesn't seem to lack some of the finer things in life, Max.

To be fair, Borat also pokes fun at some areas of American culture, as I remember.

I have always advised listening to many pianists playing the same instrument to demonstrate how much of the tone quality is dependent on the player. Here is a good example where many of us could swear that the piano had some tuning before the last clip. All three pianists made different tone colours. The last one could even make a piano sound more in tune. I've heard it work the oposite way, too.
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2016109 - 01/17/13 12:28 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: rxd]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3612
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: rxd


To be fair, Borat also pokes fun at some areas of American culture, as I remember.


Indeed. Much more so than Kazakhstan in fact.

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#2016111 - 01/17/13 12:30 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: rxd]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: rxd
The hall in your videos intrigues me. Is it a school hall, church hall, town hall??

As in most places, there are many different cultural levels. Your area of Kazakhstan doesn't seem to lack some of the finer things in life, Max.

I have always advised listening to many pianists playing the same instrument to demonstrate how much of the tone quality is dependent on the player. Here is a good example where many of us could swear that the piano had some tuning before the last clip. All three pianists made different tone colours. The last one could even make a piano sound more in tune. I've heard it work the oposite way, too.


This school of music hall of Uralsk. Girls graduates of this school. Now they continue their education at various conservatories in Russia and Kazakhstan. While on vacation, they visited a hometown.
Beautiful things around us is an illusion given to us in sensation. We must create a celebrate within ourselves despite "gloomy atmosphere around us." In Uralsk music concerts is one only outlet from reality. I am grateful that I can involved in the holiday.
I appreciate you found the different color tones in their play. I caught myself thinking, which also heard any paint. Despite some flaws myself tuning, the girls successfully completed the show
Glory MUSIC!
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#2016278 - 01/17/13 06:33 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: rxd]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2440
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Originally Posted By: rxd
... All three pianists made different tone colours. The last one could even make a piano sound more in tune. I've heard it work the oposite way, too.


Piece being played was in a different key, most likely case. A bit of a topsy turvy temperament will do that.

On a positive note, if someone can stomach a G-D 5th (in EBVT III)that beats twice as fast as a normal ET 5th without feeling like a person looking at the bottom of their shoe in a dog park, Maxs' temperament could be a calling card for a glitzy cyrillic name like CиKT 1... Случайные избиение казахско темперамент. Random Beating Kazakh Temperament.
_________________________
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Niagara Region

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#2016341 - 01/17/13 09:05 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Emmery]
David Jenson Offline
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Registered: 10/22/06
Posts: 2139
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: Emmery
... Random Beating Kazakh Temperament.
So that's what it is. 'Pretty good. Kazakhstan gave us the apple tree, and now a whole new temperament to argue about.
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David L. Jenson
Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
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#2016381 - 01/17/13 10:04 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Emmery]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Emmery
Originally Posted By: rxd
... All three pianists made different tone colours. The last one could even make a piano sound more in tune. I've heard it work the oposite way, too.


Случайные избиение казахско темперамент.

In Russian it sounds like this:
"Случайные биения казахской темперации"
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#2016382 - 01/17/13 10:05 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Bob Offline
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I'm starting to wonder is Max is for real. Somewhere, someone is laughing at all of us!
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#2016407 - 01/17/13 11:04 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: rxd]
DoelKees Offline
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Originally Posted By: rxd
Not only has Max improved in 2 years but, in looking back through his original threads, they have been an incredible catalyst for change in all of us.

Max was met with incredibly parochial self righteous condemnation from some posters. It became clear very early that the only way was through education.

This attempt at education has tempered those condemning attitudes, those same people are now posting advice and encouragement.

It has been said that travel broadens the mind. The cultural differences between all of us that were brought out and explored in the process of helping Max has quietly and gradually changed all of our attitudes. It has been a journey in itself without having to go anywhere.

Thanks, Max, for being so delightfully annoying, arrogant, stubborn, sensitive,.....

Something had to change.... and we did.

Here's to its continuing


I said before: If I want to hear a sermon I'll go to church.

Maybe I'll change my mind on that rxd; I really enjoyed this online sermon by you.

Kees

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#2016426 - 01/17/13 11:55 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Bob]
rxd Offline
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Originally Posted By: Emmery
Originally Posted By: rxd
... All three pianists made different tone colours. The last one could even make a piano sound more in tune. I've heard it work the oposite way, too.


Piece being played was in a different key, most likely case. A bit of a topsy turvy temperament will do that.


Yes, of course, that is indeed the most likely case but it is more than that. I was mainly listening to the whole different approach to the keyboard each of them had different styles of attack giving different colours other than the key color and the balance of parts that can disguise to some extent the variances of the tuning even on the same notes. (a friend of mine used to say ' it's a different piece but it has a lot of the same notes').
I
Originally Posted By: Bob
I'm starting to wonder is Max is for real. Somewhere, someone is laughing at all of us!


I've wondered that myself, Bob, in fact, we were ridiculed for helping Max on a private thread in another forum and who knows where else. Attempts at ridicule really don't matter in the long haul.
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#2016434 - 01/18/13 12:12 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
rxd Offline
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""Indeed I tuning alivkvont fourth string, which is higher than the other one octave higher. I did it intuitively, some of them were so configured. I tried not to make a mistake and I did pulling the string an octave higher. Maybe I'm wrong to do this?[/quote] ""

Im sure you already figured it out but, for future reference, Max, the aliquots that are half the speaking length are tuned an octave higher, the ones where the speaking length is the same are tuned unison or a little higher. The aliquots in the newer pianos are only in the top section and can be more clearly heard than in the old ones and the are all unisons. It is often possible to disguise a false beat by carefully placing the aliquot. Always on the sharp side, though.


Edited by rxd (01/18/13 04:50 AM)
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#2016519 - 01/18/13 04:40 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Olek Online   content
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Those aliquot strings are tuned similarly as the "ballast" string in a common unison, just by changing the shape of the envelope of the tone (I mean no need to pluck the aliquot string unless it is grossly out of tune)

I feel the aliquot is there to embarrass the unison, by taking some energy from it it is energized. SO I trust RXD that it can help to hide a false beat
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#2016568 - 01/18/13 08:29 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Phil D Offline
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I'm loving the mental picture of an embarrassed unison! laugh
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#2016603 - 01/18/13 09:43 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
rxd Offline
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Some of the old style aliquots were an embarrassment when they got old. It seemed to me that the brass post got loose in the bridge and didn't transfer the vibrations. They just went thunk when plucked and had no sustain. The new ones are audible and sustain as well as the struck strings and are not such an embarrassment to the unison. I, too, like that poetic way of saying it.


Edited by rxd (01/18/13 09:45 AM)
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#2016610 - 01/18/13 09:54 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Phil D]
erichlof Offline
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blush

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#2016842 - 01/18/13 06:14 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
pppat Offline
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Hi Max (and all others, too),

you are getting a lot of good suggestions from other posters here. I would like to contribute by showing the difference between a well-tuned unison and a unison that is 2 cents off. I recorded my piano tonight, and here are the sound files:

First, I tuned the left and right strings of D4 to the center string with an electronic tuning device. After that, the unison sounded like this:
L/R strings tuned to center string, Reyburn Cybertuner

There is a little bit of sizzling partials there, so I checked the single strings. They sounded like this:
D4, strings one-by-one

The left string was indeed a bit "busy" in itself. I tweaked the unison aurally, and this is what I came up with:
L/R to center string, aurally

Then I detuned the right string +1 cent and the left string -1 cent, giving a unison that is 2 cents wide in its frequency range:
Detuning the unison: L -1 cent, R +1 cent

Can you hear how that unison "moans"? It sounds like there's an effect on it, like a chorus or flanger pedal used for guitars.

I tuned them back, and I post that file, too. You can hear how I'm working with the tuning hammer and with the hand hitting the keys. When the strings fall into place, the sound is longer, clearer and more powerful than if the strings do not couple with each other:
re-tuning the unison

This is the kind of sound you should be looking for in your unison tuning. Start listening for that long, clear, and calm sound, and you will soon start to find it in your own tunings!

Hope this helps,
Patrick





Edited by pppat (01/18/13 06:15 PM)
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#2017072 - 01/19/13 03:58 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: pppat]
Maximillyan Offline
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Originally Posted By: pppat

I would like to contribute by showing the difference between a well-tuned unison and a unison that is 2 cents off.
Start listening for that long, clear, and calm sound, and you will soon start to find it in your own tunings!

Patrick,Terveisiä Kazakhstana. Maksim erittäin mielelläni sinua ilmaisia ​​neuvoja. Halusin kysyä, miten pidit pianomusiikkia konsertissa?
Thank you for your message. Fortunately I understand things about "wrong-sounding in choirs." You have done a great job of creating these audio files. I will post them on my website. I hope this will be helpful in understanding the piano unison Russian-speaking beginners tuner.
Sincerely,
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#2017163 - 01/19/13 10:10 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
pppat Offline
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Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Patrick,Terveisiä Kazakhstana. Maksim erittäin mielelläni sinua ilmaisia ​​neuvoja. Halusin kysyä, miten pidit pianomusiikkia konsertissa?


Terve Max smile Pidin musiikista ja soittamisesta, mutta piano oli rehellisesti sanoen sellaisessa kunnossa että oli varmasti vaikeaa tehdä hyvää musiikkia sillä. Tätä huolimatta konsertti oli varmasti elämys kuuntelijoille, ja sehän on ehkä kuitenkin tärkein.

Translation from Finnish, the language Max adressed me in when he wrote his last post:

Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Patrick, greetings from Kazakhstan. I am very grateful for your free advice. I'd like to ask how you liked the piano music in the concert?


'Hi Max smile I liked the music and the playing, but honestly speaking the piano was in a shape that no doubt made it hard to make good music on it. This set aside, the concert was admittedly an experience to the audience, and that might be most important of all.'


Edited by pppat (01/19/13 10:14 AM)
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#2017193 - 01/19/13 11:09 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: pppat]
Maximillyan Offline
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Originally Posted By: pppat
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Patrick,Terveisiä Kazakhstana. Maksim erittäin mielelläni sinua ilmaisia ​​neuvoja. Halusin kysyä, miten pidit pianomusiikkia konsertissa?


Terve Max smile Pidin musiikista ja soittamisesta, mutta piano oli rehellisesti sanoen sellaisessa kunnossa että oli varmasti vaikeaa tehdä hyvää musiikkia sillä. Tätä huolimatta konsertti oli varmasti elämys kuuntelijoille, ja sehän on ehkä kuitenkin tärkein.

Patrick,ymmärsin sinut. Temperamentti tulevaisuudessa yritän tehdä sen hyvin hyvä


Edited by Maximillyan (01/19/13 11:10 AM)
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#2017195 - 01/19/13 11:15 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: BDB]
Maximillyan Offline
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Originally Posted By: BDB
I would find more pleasure and stimulation in helping him if his attitude were better.

BDB,I have nothing against you personally. If I am offended you, I apologize
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#2017198 - 01/19/13 11:23 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Emmery]
Maximillyan Offline
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Originally Posted By: Emmery
I lifted the lid on the piano and I swear, it could have flown away on its own from all the moths that came out. Missing or rusted strings, felt held in place with snot

Routine Max's days
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#2017203 - 01/19/13 11:30 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: accordeur]
Maximillyan Offline
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Originally Posted By: accordeur

Max, I never get to the end of your videos. I don't understand a word, you look like you are teaching a lesson, and you obviously are not good enough to do that.

My films are address for simply laymen who are trying to repair their own piano
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#2017208 - 01/19/13 11:34 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Bob]
Maximillyan Offline
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Originally Posted By: Bob
I'm starting to wonder is Max is for real. Somewhere, someone is laughing at all of us!

Max ridiculed and persecuted many really alive!
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#2017212 - 01/19/13 11:41 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: rxd]
Maximillyan Offline
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Originally Posted By: rxd

""Indeed I tuning alivkvont fourth string, which is higher than the other one octave higher. I did it intuitively, some of them were so configured. I tried not to make a mistake and I did pulling the string an octave higher. Maybe I'm wrong to do this?
""

the ones where the speaking length is the same are tuned unison or a little higher. [/quote]
Thank rxd,that's what I wanted to know


Edited by Maximillyan (01/19/13 11:42 AM)
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#2017377 - 01/19/13 03:59 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
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Max,
From G47 to C# 65 is one octave higher. This section

Blüthner treble section

From D66 to C88 is tuned same as unison.

This section

High treble
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#2017405 - 01/19/13 04:53 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
pppat Offline
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Max,

regarding unison tuning, I think every tuner - including very good ones - has been in a concert where his/her unisons started to drift. It is a truly gruesome thing... I can't talk about it any more for now, because I will lose a good night's sleep if I continue smile

I just sat at the computer listening to Brad Mehldau's playing at the Village Vanguard, NY, 2006. A bit into the gig, the tuning is loosening up.

Here's the fourth-to-last track called "Secret Beach".
Brad Mehldau: Secret Beach

The tune is in A minor. Listen to B4. That note is much more than 2 cents off. Brad notices that, too, and because jazz piano players have the advantage of choosing what to play after the theme is introduced, he avoids letting B4 ring. I can understand him, it's really kind of awful-sounding.

Just to provide some comfort in your quest for good-sounding unisons smile



Edited by pppat (01/19/13 05:27 PM)
_________________________
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Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

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#2017585 - 01/19/13 11:12 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Maximillyan Offline
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Originally Posted By: Silverwood Pianos

Max,
From G47 to C# 65 is one octave higher. This section

Blüthner treble section

From D66 to C88 is tuned same as unison.

This section

High treble

I find it photo such as a piano in our school. However, our was made ​​in Leipzig (DDR)
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#2017591 - 01/19/13 11:29 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Olek]
Maximillyan Offline
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Originally Posted By: Kamin

I feel the aliquot is there to embarrass the unison, by taking some energy from it it is energized. SO I trust RXD that it can help to hide a false beat

I can not say sharp, but I think that when the sounds in chorus aliquot string begins resonance. A hammer don't touch it. If it is tuning accurately an octave higher than it then would be "classic styl." Slightly higher or lower to the effect it's the accordion pitch
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#2017630 - 01/20/13 01:43 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
rxd Offline
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Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: Kamin

I feel the aliquot is there to embarrass the unison, by taking some energy from it it is energized. SO I trust RXD that it can help to hide a false beat

I can not say sharp, but I think that when the sounds in chorus aliquot string begins resonance. A hammer don't touch it. If it is tuning accurately an octave higher than it then would be "classic styl." Slightly higher or lower to the effect it's the accordion pitch


It's subtler than that, Max. Slightly sharp on the aliquots was taught to me by the Blüthner technicians when I joined the company in the 1960's but any sharpening was well within the 2 cents being mentioned here. I suppose it's better to say "if anything, sharp, but never on the flat side". This is a matter of judgement, it would be foolish if I were to try to lock it down to a cents value. As another old tuner said; "put the little******* where they 'sound' ". I will not write exactly what he called them because it will certainly get lost in translation and you will, no doubt, chastise me.

You raise a good point though. What you describe as the "accordion sound" is what we are trying to avoid in all our unisons. We are looking, at this point, to have you remove every last trace of accordion sound. Your description is appropriate.

Of course, it is not outside the bounds of probability that you tuned perfect unisons that sprang apart at the first energetic playing so pin setting goes together with still unisons

While you have posted your theories on tuning lever angles, I suggest using the lever so that the handle Is in line with the strings. This means the handle is vertical on an upright. This isolates much of the flagpoling from having an effect on the pitch of the string so that you.can concentrate on rotational movement.

(I did go into using the thumb as a fulcrum to help remove the flagpoling and reduce springing forces on the pinblock but it got too complicated. A picture really would have said a thousand words).
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#2017662 - 01/20/13 03:56 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: rxd]
Maximillyan Offline
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Originally Posted By: rxd
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: Kamin

I feel the aliquot is there to embarrass the unison, by taking some energy from it it is energized. SO I trust RXD that it can help to hide a false beat

I can not say sharp, but I think that when the sounds in chorus aliquot string begins resonance. A hammer don't touch it. If it is tuning accurately an octave higher than it then would be "classic styl." Slightly higher or lower to the effect it's the accordion pitch


but any sharpening was well within the 2 cents being mentioned here.
I fully understand that you have to express "any aggravation but it was well within 2 cents mentioned here." For me it is difficult practical terms. I hope that my ears will help .

You raise a good point though. What you describe as the "accordion sound" is what we are trying to avoid in all our unisons. We are looking, at this point, to have you remove every last trace of accordion sound. Your description is appropriate.
We are looking at the moment that you remove every last trace accordion sound." Do not have the moral right to leave "accordion lapses in the choir" I'll fix.


While you have posted your theories on tuning lever angles, I suggest using the lever so that the handle Is in line with the strings. This means the handle is vertical on an upright. This isolates much of the flagpoling from having an effect on the pitch of the string so that you.can concentrate on rotational movement.

(I did go into using the thumb as a fulcrum to help remove the flagpoling and reduce springing forces on the pinblock but it got too complicated. A picture really would have said a thousand words).


What concerns the use of the "theory of the corners setting lever" I fully agree with you. Need hold the handle of T-bar is not parallel to the strings. While the power right hand the handle weaker than the left. If we use the L-shaped classic tuning hammer "to reduce the forces on Pinblock" that I think should lead to (9-12). A handle only the left and move UP!.
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#2017670 - 01/20/13 05:01 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Mark R. Offline
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Pat,

Many thanks for your recordings. I found it very useful to hear the de-tuned unison (-1, 0, +1).

(Frankly, I can't believe that anyone would prefer such a unison over a beatless one, as Kirk's paper would have us believe. The mind boggles!)
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#2017699 - 01/20/13 07:40 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
alfredo capurso Offline
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Accordion? I would say either hammered dulcimer or cimbalom, and I tend to believe that before metal frames and multi layers pin blocks and L-shape tuning levers (and normal temperature and humidity control) were in use, that is (funnily enough) more the kind of unisons piano players would go along with.

Please do not get me wrong, nothing to do with musical-ear-based "good intonation" that in my opinion as always been shareable as it is today; nothing to do with clean, long sounding and stable unisons that we are enabled to achieve, resulting from refined technology and (now called for, essential) skill.

Thank you, today this discussion made me surf the web and discover this lovely singing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATBNKmC_SG0&NR=1

Regards, a.c.
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#2017700 - 01/20/13 07:56 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Mark R.]
Maximillyan Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mark R.
Pat,

Many thanks for your recordings. I found it very useful to hear the de-tuned unison (-1, 0, +1).

Now Patrick's recordings will hear russian tuners
http://maxim-tuner.narod2.ru/ustroistvo_...ck_wingren_rpt/
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#2017705 - 01/20/13 08:14 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: alfredo capurso]
Maximillyan Offline
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Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso


Thank you, today this discussion made me surf the web and discover this lovely singing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATBNKmC_SG0&NR=1

This Kazakh girl singing about the beautiful nature around her. Max hears a lot of this Kipchaks music recent years. Musical instrument called Dombyra
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#2017723 - 01/20/13 08:50 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
alfredo capurso Offline
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Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso


Thank you, today this discussion made me surf the web and discover this lovely singing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATBNKmC_SG0&NR=1

This Kazakh girl singing about the beautiful nature around her. Max hears a lot of this Kipchaks music recent years. Musical instrument called Dombyra


Thanks Max, Alfredo was wondering about both the lyrics and that instrument.

Edit: More "tuning".

Max, has nobody told you that - in English - you would not say ..."Max hears a lot of..."...

Instead of "Max hears..." or whatever concerns the subject, they would say "I hear...". wink


Edited by alfredo capurso (01/20/13 09:13 AM)
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#2017752 - 01/20/13 10:16 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: alfredo capurso]
ando Offline
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Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso


Max, has nobody told you that - in English - you would not say ..."Max hears a lot of..."...

Instead of "Max hears..." or whatever concerns the subject, they would say "I hear...". wink


I love it that Max refers to himself as "Max". Don't change it, Max! Ando supports you.

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#2017755 - 01/20/13 10:20 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Mark R.]
Olek Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Mark R.
Pat,

Many thanks for your recordings. I found it very useful to hear the de-tuned unison (-1, 0, +1).

(Frankly, I can't believe that anyone would prefer such a unison over a beatless one, as Kirk's paper would have us believe. The mind boggles!)


I tried yesterday to record "dull" unison (the dynamics is low as most of the energy is given immediately) then "open unison" (obtained with always one string frankly phasing on reverse than the others, that is in the 0.1 0,4 cts range but may certainly be more depending of th ih of the piano. I had only a low iH piano for those tests, that make them more difficult as low iH straighen the enveloppe very easely)

Despite that, you can make a tone that sort of implose on itself, or a tone that gives enough energy to the partials, producing more lengh, more dynamics, and the otherwhile missing sensation of an efficient attack in the pianist fingers.

The unbalance is obtained naturally while tuning, to perceive its presence you need to pluck the strings, playing with the hammer each string we are really in the ear discrimination zone (but I heard 3 different pitches on the first unison posted by Pat). This is the level of difference find in any unison, that cab, eventually, stay put (if a certain shape is adopted from the start.

I'say one must stop thinking pitch and learn to perceive the energy level in its fingers an ears. Then, on a moderate ih piano the tuner can reinforce the tone of a partial.

Regulating the attack soon so it couple audibly the partials will rob harshness and transfer it to musical tone.

A single string (roslau) show a visible hop after a "hole" immediately after the attack noise. I believe that tuning from that moment is more efficient than regulating only the tail or even during the thick part of tone.

I suggest (?) that the way we manage tge unison, that lower energy level moment can be made smaller or longer, stronger or less.

Only changing the force used to play is enough to change the final tone (hopefully, as changing our listening moment is not a good idea, it is tiring and you can bevwrong in tge end.

Nevertheless, one have to force himself a little to listen sooner, the best tip for that is to "listen with the playing hand". With time all that begin to be natural. Tuning is not tiring then.


Edited by Kamin (01/20/13 10:21 AM)
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#2017804 - 01/20/13 12:32 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: ando]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1072
Loc: Sicily - Italy
Originally Posted By: ando
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso


Max, has nobody told you that - in English - you would not say ..."Max hears a lot of..."...

Instead of "Max hears..." or whatever concerns the subject, they would say "I hear...". wink


I love it that Max refers to himself as "Max". Don't change it, Max! Ando supports you.


Ando, I too like it, that Max writes as Max does, be him totally aware of it (like you presumably are)... I would do not like if Max was left with his petty ignorance in order to please you, Ando, as I would find that unhealthy.

You know, in our profession we may need to speak English sometime, and all the better if our English (along with our tuning) is correct, whether Ando loves that or not. wink
.
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#2018071 - 01/20/13 11:09 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Olek]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Kamin
Originally Posted By: Mark R.
Pat,

Many thanks for your recordings. I found it very useful to hear the de-tuned unison (-1, 0, +1).

(Frankly, I can't believe that anyone would prefer such a unison over a beatless one, as Kirk's paper would have us believe. The mind boggles!)


I suggest (?) that the way we manage tge unison, that lower energy level moment can be made smaller or longer, stronger or less.

Kamin,if I understand you correctly, the "basic clean unison" depends in this case the external force of impact with respect to the string . In my practice, I try to make the last tuning unison at FF (forte). However it is very hard to hear on FF inconspicuous beats between three strings
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#2018072 - 01/20/13 11:12 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: ando]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: ando
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso


Max, has nobody told you that - in English - you would not say ..."Max hears a lot of..."...

Instead of "Max hears..." or whatever concerns the subject, they would say "I hear...". wink

Ando supports you.

Max says Ando thanks
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#2018134 - 01/21/13 02:00 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: alfredo capurso]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1766
Loc: London, England
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso



Thanks Max, Alfredo was wondering about both the lyrics and that instrument.....

....Max, has nobody told you that - in English - you would not ......


This from the same post!!!

Alfredo, you may think you have mastered our language, next, take a look at the cultural differences.

While we merely tolerate your laughable lapses, we find Max's endearing. Perhaps because he is less arrogant?

You might be almost as arrogant as me.


Edited by rxd (01/21/13 02:23 AM)
_________________________
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"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2018272 - 01/21/13 10:12 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Olek]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Kamin
Originally Posted By: Mark R.
Pat,

Many thanks for your recordings. I found it very useful to hear the de-tuned unison (-1, 0, +1).

(Frankly, I can't believe that anyone would prefer such a unison over a beatless one, as Kirk's paper would have us believe. The mind boggles!)


This is the level of difference find in any unison, that cab, eventually, stay put (if a certain shape is adopted from the start.

This is true, but it is challenging to find it when we shall create harmony in three strings and no mistakes. Otherwise, we can go to build the wrong intervals from basic of "false unisons"
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A=440
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#2018317 - 01/21/13 11:06 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7887
Loc: France
Max ,he basis to learn that is to tune right string to the middle one (middle one first tuned)

Listen well for a pure clear tone, no "moaning", no beats (unless false beats wink )

Then mute the right string and tune the left one with the same tone.

Whatever the tone is if you have the same on both side, you even dont need to tune with the 3 strings together.



Edited by Kamin (01/21/13 11:06 AM)
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#2018331 - 01/21/13 11:28 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Olek]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Kamin
Max ,he basis to learn that is to tune right string to the middle one (middle one first tuned)

Listen well for a pure clear tone, no "moaning", no beats (unless false beats wink

Kamin,I do tuning all three of the string as me seems right. I'm plucking or mute (not hear any of the beats, noise or waves) However, if I'm start to check on power kick hammer me there's some extra beats. I'm having doubts and I do not know if I should as tuning the next interval.
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#2018335 - 01/21/13 11:32 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7887
Loc: France
try to tune only 2 at once you will see it is easier (but not with plucking, with playng)

Most if not all concert tuner do like that (?)

You can tune with the 3 strings sounding together of course but it is more difficult, I do that when I want to have maximum energy at the attack

The unison "shape" you obtain with first the center string is the most stable in time, in my experience.

As you are used to pluck the strings you can hear easily if the 2 outer strings are exactly the same (the center one a hair lower)

I suspect you finish your unison control with plucking the strings, this gives a too bright tone generally.


Edited by Kamin (01/21/13 03:24 PM)
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#2018423 - 01/21/13 01:36 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Phil D Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/15/10
Posts: 551
Loc: London, England
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
I do tuning all three of the string as me seems right. I'm plucking or mute (not hear any of the beats, noise or waves) However, if I'm start to check on power kick hammer me there's some extra beats. I'm having doubts and I do not know if I should as tuning the next interval.


Max, you need to be muting strings more. You have wedges? Use them to isolate the string that you are tuning. You only want to be able to hear the note you are tuning to (if it already has a good unison) and the string you are tuning. Then when the first string is set, you can unmute the second one and tune that unison, then the third and tune that. You will be left with a proper, beatless unison.

It is impossible to tune well enough without muting the appropriate strings at the right time. If you don't start doing this then you will never improve!

Use a temperament strip at the beginning to mute everything apart from the middle string in the centre of the piano. Then you can tune the temperament octave without worrying about the unisons. You need to get this right at first. Then set the octaves and the unisons as I describe.
_________________________
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The Cycling Piano Tuner

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#2018524 - 01/21/13 05:17 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Johnkie Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/04/11
Posts: 725
Loc: England
I am in total agreement with Phil.

I thought this thread was about temperament? With the best will in the world, no tuning can possibly be acceptable unless one can first set a scale to work from. I would be a great deal more impressed with Max's progress if it were possible for him to demonstrate a scale (temperament) by muting off the first 12 notes so that only one string in each unison was sounding and then asking for guidance. That way he could concentrate on getting the basis correct instead of blindly ploughing through the other 200+ strings getting overwhelmed by notes that need correction.

This thread is going round and round in circles getting nowhere fast!
_________________________
Concert Tuner & Technician for the past 49 years in the United Kingdom
and Member of the Pianoforte Tuners' Association (London)
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#2018533 - 01/21/13 05:46 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4215
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada

Originally Posted By: Johnkie

This thread is going round and round in circles getting nowhere fast!


Agreed. There is one thing that mystifies me about Max. He was sent a complete Randy Potter course for instructional purposes.

The instructional DVD’s did not make it through the mail to Max.

Why is he not spending time translating the course pages daily or one page a day, but insists on spending great deal of time here?
_________________________
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www.silverwoodpianos.com
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"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#2018545 - 01/21/13 06:07 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
David Jenson Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/22/06
Posts: 2139
Loc: Maine
I'm lurking ... and it's entertaining.

Everyone carry on now. Just pretend I'm not here. laugh
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Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
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#2018551 - 01/21/13 06:17 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: David Jenson]
accordeur Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 1207
Loc: Qubec, Canada
Originally Posted By: David Jenson
I'm lurking ... and it's entertaining.

Everyone carry on now. Just pretend I'm not here. laugh


Same here.
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Jean Poulin

Musician, Tuner and Technician

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#2018657 - 01/21/13 10:00 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
Who says we're all in here lurking around??? I'm not!!!
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Piano Technicians Guild
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www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#2018662 - 01/21/13 10:04 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
David Jenson Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/22/06
Posts: 2139
Loc: Maine
That makes three of us who aren't here. Is anyone else not here?

I figured that Groot fella might be not here, but I didn't want to say anything to give him away.
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David L. Jenson
Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
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#2018681 - 01/21/13 10:52 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
😇👼🙈🙉🙊 That's me. A perfect angel. See no evil, speak no evil, hear no evil but I have FUN!
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Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#2018710 - 01/22/13 12:22 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Olek]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Kamin
try to tune only 2 at once you will see it is easier (but not with plucking, with playng)

As you are used to pluck the strings you can hear easily if the 2 outer strings are exactly the same (the center one a hair lower)

I suspect you finish your unison control with plucking the strings, this gives a too bright tone generally.

Dear Kamin, it is true. When I'm read your words. You are as close was when I do temperament. I really keep plucking the strings now, because it is associated with a biggest wear and tear a pianos which I have . With reference check unisons really sound very bright and I do not find errors. The tuner also shows that I was right. I see no reason to accusation that plucking wrong but a mute is norm. To basic tone it is irrelevant how it arises (from impact or pinching)
_________________________
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http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2018714 - 01/22/13 12:28 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: David Jenson]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: David Jenson
I'm lurking ... and it's entertaining.

Everyone carry on now. Just pretend I'm not here. laugh

This theme is not about Max. Here we can try to understand and do it's a discussion about the temperament. In the future would like to see examples of the quality of temperament of our forum regulars
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A=440
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#2018716 - 01/22/13 12:30 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Silverwood Pianos

Originally Posted By: Johnkie

This thread is going round and round in circles getting nowhere fast!


Why is he not spending time translating the course pages daily or one page a day, but insists on spending great deal of time here?

Max has a lot of free time
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#2018730 - 01/22/13 01:16 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Johnkie]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Johnkie

I would be a great deal more impressed with Max's progress if it were possible for him to demonstrate a scale (temperament) by muting off the first 12 notes so that only one string in each unison was sounding and then asking for guidance. That way he could concentrate on getting the basis correct instead of blindly ploughing through the other 200+ strings getting overwhelmed by notes that need correction.

Max still hopes that one day it will happen. Johnkie, you are right that Max is not very consistent in their desires. He absolutely can not put specific targets and try to solve them. But he tries. English gentleman be indulgent to him
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#2018744 - 01/22/13 01:59 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Mark R. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 2043
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
Max,

I am no professional, but thanks to some good books and the technicians on this forum, I have made some progress.

Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
I see no reason to accusation that plucking wrong but a mute is norm. To basic tone it is irrelevant how it arises (from impact or pinching)


Nobody is making any accusations. They are giving you advice, Max. Good advice. Over and over and over.

The piano's tone is not the same when plucked or played. A good, solid, clean unison is tuned by using the piano's hammer. The technicians on this forum have been telling you this for more than a year (two years?)

ALL good tuning videos show normal playing, not plucking. Again, here's one of my favorites (I've posted it before):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbNYS6Oot4M
0:01 - 1:57 = examples of bad and good unisons
2:00 - 3:25 = tuning a temperament (he uses mainly 4ths and 5ths, and checks with 3rds and 6ths)
3:25 - 3:50 = extending the temperament to the whole middle section (still single strings!)
3:52 - 4:55 = tuning left and right string of each unison in the middle section
4:55 - 5:35 = extending octaves into bass and treble (using a mute in the treble to tune one string to the octave, then the other two).

In summary:
1) Start with the temperament, then extend it.
2) Tune one string of each unison correctly, then the others.
3) No plucking to be seen anywhere!
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1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

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#2018760 - 01/22/13 02:48 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1766
Loc: London, England
Max is being given lots of advice, some of it conflicting but not necessarily wrong, some of it too advanced for a beginner.

If Max were a hands on student of any of us, we would be attempting to supplant some of the bad habits with better ones. That is the hardest part of any teaching, particularly when the student has some sort of hidden attachment to doing it the hard way.
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2018793 - 01/22/13 04:03 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7887
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: Kamin
try to tune only 2 at once you will see it is easier (but not with plucking, with playng)

As you are used to pluck the strings you can hear easily if the 2 outer strings are exactly the same (the center one a hair lower)

I suspect you finish your unison control with plucking the strings, this gives a too bright tone generally.

Dear Kamin, it is true. When I'm read your words. You are as close was when I do temperament. I really keep plucking the strings now, because it is associated with a biggest wear and tear a pianos which I have . With reference check unisons really sound very bright and I do not find errors. The tuner also shows that I was right. I see no reason to accusation that plucking wrong but a mute is norm. To basic tone it is irrelevant how it arises (from impact or pinching)


If you still believe that you have yet a very large step to go, then eventually you will begin to progress at a normal speed.

The "tuner" is not precise enough to show you if the tone is musical tone.

On pianos in bad condition,old or with bad strings, the role of the human tuner is to give the impression that the piano is better than it is. So I understand your idea of tone shaping but you are not yet experimented enough to do that well. Your ears may be tired soon an then you cannot judge of the final tone.

It is because nobody showed you really, in front of you, giving you methods, books and reading can help but minimally, you have to watch training videos at last and try to reproduce what you see..

But you have been send much links and material so the rest is up to you.

If you where able to record a temperament that would mean you where able to judge yourself of your work. For now you are yet too much in fantasy, to me.

Basics and ear training are necessary.

Best wishes
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2018844 - 01/22/13 08:00 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Olek]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Kamin
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: Kamin
try to tune only 2 at once you will see it is easier (but not with plucking, with playng)

As you are used to pluck the strings you can hear easily if the 2 outer strings are exactly the same (the center one a hair lower)

I suspect you finish your unison control with plucking the strings, this gives a too bright tone generally.

Dear Kamin, it is true. When I'm read your words. You are as close was when I do temperament. I really keep plucking the strings now, because it is associated with a biggest wear and tear a pianos which I have . With reference check unisons really sound very bright and I do not find errors. The tuner also shows that I was right. I see no reason to accusation that plucking wrong but a mute is norm. To basic tone it is irrelevant how it arises (from impact or pinching)


For now you are yet too much in fantasy, to me.

If a lot of incorrect theory of Max finally would transformed into quality the temperament of piano , then rejoice not only the Max. Will be happy all ( a invisible transatlantic web puppeteers and his customers). Thank you that understood "the idea of ​​forming the tone, but you have not experimented enough to do it well."
"If you are able to record where temperament, which means that you where able to judge yourself on your job" is a big dream of Max. But Max is not able to record video on a regular basis, there is no money to buy a camera. However, this does not mean that he is not engaged temperament. It's moving, and does it every day. Sometimes Max's customers do not hear in the sound of his inconsistencies temperament. It's little victory
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