Stay tuned!



Jeff Tasch
Grand Piano Haus

Okay, we've just had a lengthy kurfuffle because a dealer posted a link to a review of a concert in which a 13 year old girl played a Steingreaber Concert Grand. That at least had some real information in it. This is pure teaser and as such is annoying. Either post something informative or don't bother.

FWIW, I played a brand new CFX yesterday and that was a very enjoyable experience, but this thread stole some of that pleasure back. Is that really what you're trying to accomplish for the good folks at Yamaha?

Stinking evil dealers. By the way, I like the word kurfuffle, never heard it before, but just the sound of it says what its definition must be. And, just to be clear, I for one, enjoy dealer posts, they are among the most informed and up to date posters on piano world. My first sentance was tongue in cheek.

So.. Whats the new Yamaha? All the c series getting the xa makeover??? Just a wild guess!

Yes, there needs to be some substance to this topic or it will go away. From where I sit it looks like nothing more than an excuse to put your tagline out there.

jeff's a good guy, tho in his excitement he might have jumped the gun a little on this one. am curious, tho...

It's the first ROUND grand piano. And it has HELLO KITTY options.

I've never seen something "new" on a piano that would make me get that excited. Yeah, technical improvements are nice, but is this piano really going to be that awesome to have to post this thread? Give the real info or wait for it.

Wind Powered, no doubt.

Should those of us about to make a piano purchase hold off for this new announcement?

I need to know about NOW!!

A couple of weeks ago I just returned from Yamaha’s Buena Park, California (U.S. head offices). I also was invited to visit Yamaha’s headquarters in Hamamatsu and Yamaha’s piano factory in Kakegawa, Japan where Yamaha builds the new CX grands, CFX, CF6, CF4 concert grands, U, YUS, SU uprights.

I have been to numerous piano factories around the world, even Azerbaijani’s Beltmann piano factory. I personally have never been to a factory like Yamaha’s piano factory in Kakegawa, Japan. It is an ultra high-precision, technology based factory that is super clean.

Here’s one little piece of information I did not know before: every plate that Yamaha uses in their pianos is manufactured in Iwata, Japan, Yamaha’s foundry. From the Cable-Nelson right up to the CFX, every plate is born there.

Anyway, I thought I would share with all PianoWorld users that after 45 years, Yamaha has revamped the “C” series pianos. Some of the major components and manufacturing processes that are used in the new highly acclaimed “CF” series concert grand pianos are now implemented in the new “CX” series.

New "C" Models: C1X, C2X, C3X, C5X, C6X, C7X.

Yes, the sizes are the same as the previous "C" series. Yamaha has also cosmetically modernized the look of the new “CX” pianos.

Some new components:
MusicWire: Middle to Treble (Germany’s Röslau)
HammerFelt: German
Soundboard: Bavarian Spruce (New crown manufacturing method like in “CF” and “XA” Yamaha grands)
Backposts: Increased Thickness. Greater support for ‘fff’ playing


Enjoy,

Jeff Tasch
Grand Piano Haus

Confused as to where the XA models fit into this scheme. Will there be C3, C3XA and C3X all available at the same time?

Probably...

You know what, I like the idea of the new CX pianos, but they should have kept the classic look, and kept the modern look for the CF pianos. That way, they are distinct and separate, and given the price of the CF pianos, it might be better for marketing and residual value.

Remember how the S series used to depreciate much faster than the C series, and they were discounted to death anyway? One of the complaints happened to be that the S series and the C series, up to 2000 anyway, were identical looking. It's amazing the difference perception makes. Perhaps they should have called the premier ones Torakusu Yamaha, like Shigeru Kawai?

So I was right! Do I get a prize?

In the Yamaha website the C3XA and C6XA are listed as limited edition models. So I think they are just using them as a test to hear the public reaction first before overhauling the rest of the C series.

Ho hum...

Hmmmmm.... looks to me like Yamaha is finally catching up to quite a few of their Chinese competitors.

Ho Hum for few, incredible excitement for many

Incredible hype for dealers. I doubt anyone could tell the difference between Röslau wire and say, Mapes, or German felt or wood and Austrian or Australian, or the support of FFF playing between one piano and the next, whatever that may mean. Yamaha has been making some nice pianos lately, but not one of those items would in itself make as much of a difference as a good technician could.

There is definitely a basic tonal difference between the C3 and C3XA, so you can hear at least some of the differences.

What will be the availability for the North American market, I wonder? (The Asia / Middle East / Africa / Oceania / Latin America website indicates October 2012).

Yeah, these are the kind of fairly small adjustments that often accompany the rolling out of a new "model." Yamaha is certainly not the only firm, or even the only piano firm, to engage in this kind of tinkering and rebadging. It makes good sense to market it, but really, it does seem like small potatoes (yes, to ME).

But you know, I like the C series, so I'm sure I won't like this any less.

I like the C series, too, some better than others. But I recently tuned a C3 and a G3, and the differences between them were less than the sample differences for each of those models, probably because I have been taking care of them for so long.

If the CX series has the same improvements as the C3XA and C6XA, there was a noticeable improvement in the sound. The treble had a bell-like clarity and the bass was more mellow but had wonderful power. Since the C3 I purchased was already over-the-top of my piano budget, I couldn't indulge, but wow, I was really impressed with the difference I heard in the XA's. It may look like small tweaks, but those changes made a very big difference in sound (at least to me).

I really look forward to the new CX's hitting the dealer's showrooms. Improvements to pianos that don't cost more than my house are always welcome news!

Well, at least these are improvements to, and a discussion regarding, a brand that is significant in the industry.

So much of the discussion on this forum seems to center on the insignificant - by that I mean discussions about brands that, while of great quality - have little or no real significance in the industry as a whole because they sell in such small quantities.

I won't mention any names, but I believe you are familiar with a brand that gets frequent mentions here - that I would guess sold fewer than a dozen pianos in the United States all last year.

Yamaha sells more in 1 week than all the "Tier 1" piano brands put together sell in a year. Perhaps in several years.

Don't get me wrong - I have never been accused of being a big fan of Yamahas, and quite the contrary - I am a huge fan of most all the "Tier 1" brands - some more than others (especially Steingraeber and Sauter). But to most people they are not relevant.

Out of curiosity, what brand of wire were they using up to now?

i agree; on paper the changes don't appear earth shaking but it may well be a case of the whole being greater than the sum of the parts. i look forward to 'seeing' what a CF6 sounds like.

It is entirely possible that the selling points mentioned are not the primary improvements to the newer models. I just do not like people touting pianos on the basis of selling points. The proof is in how well the piano sounds and plays.

I got to play the CFX several months ago. My impression was that it is a very nice piano; there was nothing about it that I found objectionable: it had a nice sound, the action was responsive, and it looked pretty with its edgy styling. However, it left me with a "so what?" feeling. It's not such an improvement over the CFIIIS that it deserves the hype it's getting... rather, it's just another really, really nice tier-1 concert grand.

This is nice! Maybe some of the Bosendorfer philosophy is making its way down to their Yamaha line

Trying to help avoiding speculations on the specs of the new Yamaha CX series, below are two links describing them:

Yamaha announcement

Yamaha Australia - CX series

schwammerl.

Hello Schwammerl,

Thank you very much for sharing.


JT
GPH

On October 12, 2012 (Friday), Yamaha Corporation will make a worldwide launch of a new series of acoustic grand pianos, the CX Series, which will replace its premium quality "C Series" pianos.

So... if I read this correctly, the current C will be replaced, no longer made. I bet the C3XA/C6XA will no longer be made either, as they are exactly the same thing as the future C3X and C6X.

The only bad thing about this means a new C-series piano will be much more expensive once the current C-series stock is gone.

I wonder how long it takes to sell out all the current stock of C3, when the C3X would be the only kind of new C3 you could get from a dealer? One or two years?

you ask really good questions, 4evrBeginR. hard to imagine yamaha would give up price points that have been so successful for them. to possibly oversimplify, that means that either CXs take on XA pricing (substantially higher), CXs get a bump in pricing (potentially mitigated with dealer discounts) or CXs simply replace Cs in the pricebook (the latter would leave XA buyers a bit miffed i would think).

jeff, what sayest thou?

I will be playing the C3X either later this week, or early next week.

I've also played C3XA and of course C3.

The problem with Yamaha is that they creep their prices up and up and up, until the point where you could match it with a Bluthner or something. Of course, since Yamaha have control of Bosendorfer, they don't have to worry about competition there... they'll just knock up the Bosie prices (which are already very high).

Of course, if the CX series are significantly better than the C series, then I don't expect that they SHOULD be the same price. If there's a lot of R and D involved there, and upgraded materials, then the pianos will be more expensive and justifiably so.

It depends on the application of the piano. A pianist who only has one piano, will want something middle of the road, that can take a pounding and will retain it's sound reasonably well, then you flog it and upgrade. You don't expect to make money on it because you've worked it into the ground.

A pianist with two pianos might want something middle of the road, or even less for note bashing - even an old vertical - and then want something a bit special for the finishing work, finding out what the possibilities are. You couldn't really do that on the older C series pianos. Perhaps the CX will allow more refined practice.

I wonder what this will do to the used market for existing C-series piano. Using the C3 as the canonical Yamaha let's assume that the C3X will list for considerably more than the current C3. Let's say a C3X costs $5000 more than the current C3 new. (call it $35k instead of $30k just for round numbers).

Someone with a $30k budget that wants a C3 now can't get a new one *at all* for that price and if they like the Yamaha sound they will turn to the used market. In this case, demand goes up for used C3s.

On the other hand if the C3X is significantly better to where most buyers strongly prefer it to the existing C3 then demand for the existing C3s may go down. I think that's what happened to the G series which seem to go for less on the used market than similar-vintage Cs.

If the C3X is significantly better sounding and is NOT quite a bit more expensive than the existing C3 then I would expect the latter to happen. But C-series Yamahas are pretty damned expensive already and every dollar they increase the price increases their vulnerability from the lower tiers. If Yamaha wants to continue selling hundreds of thousands of C-series pianos instead of just thousands of "boutique" pianos I don't think they have much room on price. I'm pretty well off financially but a new C3 is really hard for me to justify at $30k. If it moves upmarket to 40k it will be basically out-of-reach for 95% of Americans.

Japanese car manufacturers established toeholds in the American markets with cheap models but they quickly moved upscale. Surely Yamaha doesn't want to be outflanked in that way.

when last i checked the C3XA retail was $53k. if the C3X is essentially the same, it's hard to imagine it getting a retail price in the 40s, much less the 30s. and like i said before, if it does there are going to be some very unhappy C3XA owners out there.

Well, not very many of them

In Canada, the C3XA retail price is $7,400 higher than the C3, so about $4,424 more. I suspect that the C3X might be similar.

Wow - talk about wild speculation!

Things change so quickly. I wonder what the Yamaha product line will look like when I have the financial ability to change out of my current spinet.

However, I looked up the Japanese version of Yamaha's website and it shows prices for the pianos. It looks as if the new CX series will sell between their XA and regular counterparts. But then again, the prices are only for Japan and do not reflect US/CAN/EU/AUS customers. I feel that the extra costs for XA series were to fund their R&D bills for the CX series.

I too wonder what Yamaha used for their treble strings before. There was a YT video that I watched in which a salesperson selling an older Yamaha said that Yamaha outsourced parts on their newer models.

Agreed. We can only speculate about your speculation, since you haven't quoted anyone. Hence, we don't know whom you are directing your comment to!

Is it already available in Canada? I would be very interested in your opinion of the C3X compared to C3XA.

Yes!

I spoke with a dealer yesterday, who had just uncrated a C3X. He said the action is phenomenal, comparable with the CFIII. They will have it prepped for next week.

I also spoke with another dealer who expects to get a C3X in within two weeks. Although he has had no experience with the instrument, he quoted another dealer who has played it, who apparently compared it to the C3, saying it has a richer sound, is more unlimited in terms of voicing, bigger bass, greater volume, and a top register that is beautifully sweet.

I found the C3XA that I played to have less bass, and less volume than the C3 - so opposite.

I'll know more when I play the first C3X next week.

I'm very excited about this prospect, since I expected to have to wait for months to try out a C3X.

Lawrence

I now have an appointment booked for tomorrow evening to play the new C3X. The store will be closed, so guaranteed to be quiet.

Yesterday I played the new C3X. I'm likely one of the very few customers who has played the C3, the C3X and the C3XA.

It is apparent that the C3XA and the C3X are not the same instrument, as some have reported, at least based on my audition experience. I have heard that the C3XA soundboard was a cross between the old C and the new CFX style board in the C3X.

The C3X is one big sounding piano! In fact, there was a C6 sitting beside it, which is a 7' piano. The tone was better on the C3X, and just as big a sound, if not bigger than the C6 - astounding really.

There is a tremendous range of dynamics, and colour. You can get superbly soft dynamics with effortless control. It is also easy to get a big, loud tone. When you play louder, the tone does not get thin, like it does on the C3. The C3X has a bigger, more resonant sound.

I played it for an hour, and then talked with the dealer. When he asked what I thought about the action, I realized I hadn't thought about it at all, hadn't noticed it since it just worked. Perfect and enjoyable and successful in every way.

There's really nothing about the C3X that I don't like. Previously the C3 was my favourite instrument, but the C3X trumps it - better resonance, tone, action, playability.

So, my next step will be to play the C3X at the other two local dealers when they become available. In short order, I will have played three C3X's, all setup by different piano techs.

At this point, I'm confident that there will be a C3X in my future!

thanks for the report MM. can you describe what you think are the differences between the c3xa and c3x?

Here are my observations, based on playing only one C3XA. (Others have reported different results, so it could be down to setup).

The C3XA is much more expensive, and not worth the additional expense.

The sound is different, more European, a darker sound. The hammers are too soft. Hard to get volume out of it.

The key may be to find the right tech to work on it. The one that I played had had three techs work on it, none producing a satisfactory result. The sound is OK, but lacking in excitement. It feels like you're playing a much smaller instrument.

I don't like the look of the XA, either the music desk with holes, or the "XA Class" stencilled on it. I had removed the C3XA from consideration before even trying the C3X.

I had an opportunity to play a new C3XA yesterday, albeit very briefly.

I was very impressed.

The instrument is very different from the standard C3 - the tone is much more to my liking and as someone else posted earlier I believe - would change one's impression of Yamaha grands completely.

That's all I'll say - try one for yourself if you are curious. Talk is cheap.

At the Yamaha Canada website, additional information has been posted about the CX series:

Yamaha Canada CX Series

There are now links to "Designer Interview", "Developer Interview" and "History"

Interesting reading.

While doing my piano search, I tried a new C3XA. I am not a fan of Yamaha pianos generally unless playing jazzy stuff, but this piano was different. More fit for classical music. Very nice, but a lot more money than a regular C3. If it was cheaper, I think it would really sell well to those who find most Yamahas too bright.

I guess maybe Yamaha gives very similar names to different models to show how they've developed or ?. But by doing so I think it makes things very confusing for the buyer.

I have looked up the different models in the Piano Buyer several times, but I still can't keep them straight.

I never understand what's meant by "German felt"

Only hear Wurzen as felting company, Renner or Abel as hammer
makers.

http://www.filzfabrik-wurzen.de/de/51/home

Outside Eberle & Osterried" and "Vereinigte Filzfabriken", "German felt" seems to be represented mainly by a host of Chinese manufacturers. Is this just a name? Curious.

http://www.alibaba.com/showroom/german-wool-felt.html

Anybody more in the know?

P.S.Heard that the new Yamaha is beautiful!

Norbert

Norbert -

I tried to send you a private message, but it says "Norbert is over their Private Topic limit."

Lawrence

Ach - Norbert is usually over his limit!




Wurzen (Weickert) felt was already exported to Japan back in the 1920s and 30s, as I understand it. Today, Asia is again one of their important markets. While some Chinese pianos have German made hammers, others make their own using felt made in Germany, as do some Japanese piano companies. Chinese companies like to make use of the "made in Germany" status to raise their profile, others (Japanese?) don't make mention of the source of their felt, for whatever reason.

Speaking of hammers made in China, does anyone know of German brand hammers made there?

i just visited my local yamaha dealer to play the new cx3. wow was i disappointed. despite the fact that it was totally unprepared (why do piano dealers not tune their pianos?) it sounded weak and anemic. the awkward tenor break at B/Bb is still there (no new scale design?) and the bass was muddy and soft. honestly, if i had been blindfolded i would have thought it was an inexpensive 5' chinese grand.

i should say i am a yamaha fan- i've owned 3 so far (m1e, u3 and currently a dc3).

in addition, it looked cheap. it had an orange plate (as opposed to the old gold color), the spade legs are gone (replaced with straight tapered legs that i always associate with cheap grands) and the top of the dampers are a dull black without the nice contour of before. nothing about this piano impressed me.

i told the dealer i'll be back in a few months to allow the to get it together but i am not hopeful. i find this very distressing.

let's hope the c7x doesn't fare as poorly.

Really? You're distressed because because you didn't like an instrument that was "totally unprepared"?

The CX series are left more open from that factory than the C series. Yamaha is recommending six hours of prep work to be done.

I've recently played three C3X's and the prep time they each received was 5-1-/2 hours, 6 hours and 6-/12 hours, respectively.

The CX series (at least at C3X size and above) are definitely superior to the C series. Not even close. (Yes, I have played C3 and C3X side-by-side).

I suspect that if you play one actually properly prepped, you will post a different opinion!

Any one know where the new Yamaha CX series are made?

Hello Carl,

I can answer your question.

The new Yamaha "CX" series pianos are fully manufactured in Kakegawa (Shizuoka Prefecture) Japan. I personally was invited by Yamaha corporation to view this amazing factory.


Jeff Tasch
Grand Piano Haus

thank you your help.

Carl

Well, I for one am glad they chose to get away from the bright thin sound and cut back a bit of volume..

many people don't need or want the extra volume of harder hammers and hard hammers make it impossible to get a truly singing tone..

If you listen to any recording of pianos made before the world wars they used a softer and finer felt..

Anything that is touched by a German or has somehow impacted a German's feelings.

Anyway, nice to read the discussion on the new series.

I've heard of Australian wool, American wool, and Cashmere wool, but I'm quite surprised to learn of German wool felt? I didn't think the Germans are so famous for wool, and just as surprised there is such a thing as Japanese wool felt. Is this just a case of marketing gone overboard?