Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad) Pianoteq
Latest Pianoteq add-on instrument: U4 upright piano
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Topic Options
#1924205 - 07/08/12 12:46 PM 3 against 4 polyrhythm question
Stargatefan Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/27/09
Posts: 28
Loc: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
Hi All,

Can anyone point me to an internet resource on how to play triplets over regular eighths or sixteenths? I am trying to learn how to do this, and am currently working on George Peter Tingley's "Reverie" which is an intermediate level student piece that has one instance of melody in triplet over regular eighths in the left hand.

Is this a technique that you just have to get a "feel" for, or is there a more disciplined way I can learn this on my own? I don't feel like I've got it yet. When I hear good players do this, the triplet seems almost to float over the accompaniment in an ethereal way.

And one more question, can anybody suggest good pieces for me to practice this technique on? Something perhaps of the difficulty level of the Tingley piece?

Thanks in advance everybody,

Dan the Stargatefan

Top
(ad) Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
#1924375 - 07/08/12 09:01 PM Re: 3 against 4 polyrhythm question [Re: Stargatefan]
Andy Platt Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/10
Posts: 2342
Loc: Virginia, USA
I learned this with Debussy's arabesque #1 which has many examples of this. It also has that ethereal feeling you were talking about.

There were many ways I got this. Learn both hands separately and completely solidly. Divide into a common rhythm and count really slowly. Mark which notes line up and which don't. Tap with one hand and count out loud in the other rhythm.

The next piece I learned with polyrhythms came soo much easier after that.
_________________________
  • Liszt - Liebesträume No. 3, S541
  • Bartók - Romanian Folk Dances, Sz. 56
    My Hungarian Period wink

Kawai K3

Top
#1924489 - 07/09/12 03:42 AM Re: 3 against 4 polyrhythm question [Re: Stargatefan]
Bobpickle Offline

Gold Supporter until July 10  2014


Registered: 05/24/12
Posts: 1370
Loc: Cameron Park, California
obviously not the same piece, but when first learning about the subject, this tutorial on Fantasie Impromptu seemed to nicely address the most approachable way to learning 3 against 4. Would love a second opinion, though


Top
#1924504 - 07/09/12 05:19 AM Re: 3 against 4 polyrhythm question [Re: Stargatefan]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7460
The way I way shown to do any of those x over y cross-rhythms is to multiply the numeric values of the two parts, and then use that result as the basis for counting out where in the time-line each note falls.

In the case of 3 against 4, you multiply them and that gives you 12. Then you make a measure of 12 beats, and place the notes where they proportionally fit in that measure. The part with 3 notes would be split up across that 12 beat measure at a rate of one note every four beats, and the part with the 4 four notes would be split up across that measure at a rate of one note every three beats. That will give you the exact and precise relationship of the parts to each other. And, since it is in slow motion, you can really see and hear exactly how they fit together.

You take a measure or two and practice them that way, and slowly start increasing the speed. Once you get the hang of how the parts fit together (which really doesn't take that long), you can increase the speed quite rapidly up to the tempo you want, and then start adding expression.

I hope this makes sense - it's harder to describe in words than it is to scribble it out on score paper.

Top
#1924508 - 07/09/12 05:47 AM Re: 3 against 4 polyrhythm question [Re: Stargatefan]
bennevis Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 4420
Pianists learn to play triplets fairly early on (3 against two), so it seems to me easier just to double the duplets up (i.e. halving their time values) and thus play 3 against 4. That's the way I'd learn them.

The same principle and method can be applied to smaller time values (eights, sixteenths).

Top
#1924595 - 07/09/12 10:20 AM Re: 3 against 4 polyrhythm question [Re: Stargatefan]
Entheo Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/04
Posts: 1111
Loc: chicago, il
on drums i learned 3 against 4 this way:

1 e & a 2 e & a 3 e & a 4 e & a
1---------2-----------3

tap your fingers, then switch to learn both ways. since 3 doesn't go cleanly into 16 ultimately you have to listen for the triplet feel.
_________________________
diary of an amateur pianist

Top
#1924631 - 07/09/12 11:55 AM Re: 3 against 4 polyrhythm question [Re: Stargatefan]
Palindrome Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/22/01
Posts: 3910
Loc: Chicago, IL USA
For English speakers, the 4 against 3 has the same rhythm as "pass the g*d-d*mned spinach"

(Which exemplifies interesting things about how English speakers stress syllables by lengthening them. Thanks to Mark DeVoto for giving me this hint many decades ago.)
_________________________
There is no end of learning. -Robert Schumann Rules for Young Musicians

Top
#1924635 - 07/09/12 12:08 PM Re: 3 against 4 polyrhythm question [Re: Palindrome]
Entheo Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/04
Posts: 1111
Loc: chicago, il
Originally Posted By: Palindrome
For English speakers, the 4 against 3 has the same rhythm as "pass the g*d-d*mned spinach"


brilliant!
_________________________
diary of an amateur pianist

Top
#1924639 - 07/09/12 12:17 PM Re: 3 against 4 polyrhythm question [Re: Stargatefan]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 20778
Loc: Oakland
The best way to play rhythms, poly- or not, is to learn to count less and less. Learn to play 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 to a beat, counting only the beats, not the individual notes. You can practice that with scales or arpeggiated chords, hands separate, hands together, and then eventually you can put different groups together, even 3 against 5 if you want to.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

Top
#1924738 - 07/09/12 05:35 PM Re: 3 against 4 polyrhythm question [Re: Andy Platt]
square-39 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/11/08
Posts: 55
Debussy's Arabesque #1 has a polyrhythm of 3 against 2.

Top
#1924750 - 07/09/12 06:09 PM Re: 3 against 4 polyrhythm question [Re: Bobpickle]
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 17674
Loc: Victoria, BC
Originally Posted By: Bobpickle
obviously not the same piece, but when first learning about the subject, this tutorial on Fantasie Impromptu seemed to nicely address the most approachable way to learning 3 against 4. Would love a second opinion, though



What an arduous, painful, unproductive way of learning to play a work that, at the level of pianists at which this video seems to be directed, must be far above their level to ever play. With every note being pointed out, named, and printed on a chart, and with the presenter telling his audience which finger plays which note - one after the other! - why would anyone think s/he could learn the Fantaisie-Impromptu like this? Addressing an audience who finds that "F-double-sharp can be confusing so we'll just call it a G" shows to me that this presenter is not a teacher. At repertoire of this level, if one can't read the notes fluently, one shouldn't be playing the piece.

Moreover, the opening polyrhythm in the Fantaisie-Impromptu is not six against four as stated in the video, but, rather six against eight (or three against four).

After a couple of minutes, the rest was just to painful to watch.

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190 in satin ebony
Writing from Paris until 15 May, 2014

Top
#1924795 - 07/09/12 07:53 PM Re: 3 against 4 polyrhythm question [Re: Bobpickle]
PianogrlNW Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/22/11
Posts: 299
Loc: Seattle, WA
Originally Posted By: Bobpickle
obviously not the same piece, but when first learning about the subject, this tutorial on Fantasie Impromptu seemed to nicely address the most approachable way to learning 3 against 4. Would love a second opinion, though



Seriously, is this the way to learn polyrhythms? I thought his teaching method was ridiculous (although I didn't watch the whole video. I got a chuckle from his whiteboard with the ad for online piano lessons for $48.
_________________________



Top
#1925713 - 07/12/12 05:30 AM Re: 3 against 4 polyrhythm question [Re: Stargatefan]
Bobpickle Offline

Gold Supporter until July 10  2014


Registered: 05/24/12
Posts: 1370
Loc: Cameron Park, California
hah I appreciate the input. When the time comes for such aforementioned polyrhythms to be addressed, how might you, BruceD and/or Pianogrl suggest to not only conceptualize them, but ultimately tackle them?

Top
#1925803 - 07/12/12 11:22 AM Re: 3 against 4 polyrhythm question [Re: Bobpickle]
PianogrlNW Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/22/11
Posts: 299
Loc: Seattle, WA
Originally Posted By: Bobpickle
hah I appreciate the input. When the time comes for such aforementioned polyrhythms to be addressed, how might you, BruceD and/or Pianogrl suggest to not only conceptualize them, but ultimately tackle them?


I think it's a matter of building on acquired skills and technique. Before you can master 3 against 4, you need to master 2 against 3. I don't think a beginner or advanced beginner at the piano can tackle the Fantasie Impromptu, which is who the video seemed to be targeted at.
_________________________



Top

Moderator:  Brendan, Kreisler 
What's Hot!!
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
-------------------
PIANO BOOKS
Interesting books about the piano, pianists, piano history, biographies, memoirs and more!
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
Download & Print Sheet Music Instantly
sheet music search
sheet music search

sheet music search
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
Who's Online
140 registered (A Guy, ABC Vermonter, accordeur, Alux, AmateurBob, 41 invisible), 1552 Guests and 33 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
74307 Members
42 Forums
153690 Topics
2252929 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
New Topics - Multiple Forums
HELP! Is this strain because of my technique?
by T.M.E.
04/23/14 11:26 PM
Is it my technique that's causing this?
by T.M.E.
04/23/14 10:49 PM
Best brand of upright piano 48" or larger?
by WG40
04/23/14 10:22 PM
Kawai MP11 vs. Kawai VPC-1 Action / Key Length
by jp2011
04/23/14 10:00 PM
Canadian pricing for Kawai MP11?
by GWILLY
04/23/14 09:52 PM
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission