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#1925997 - 07/12/12 07:57 PM Re: The Shout!House [Re: OperaTenor]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
Exactly! I've had pianos do that often on me and have done that exact same thing, ordered a full set so I've always got at least one on hand and then order them separately thereafter as necessary.
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#1926001 - 07/12/12 08:07 PM Re: The Shout!House [Re: OperaTenor]
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21926
Loc: Oakland
The good thing is that with two identical pianos, one set should be sufficient, as the chances that the same string will break on both pianos at the same time are slim. It is like why two bathrooms are usually sufficient for several people, while one bathroom may not be sufficient for two people.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#1926040 - 07/12/12 09:32 PM Re: The Shout!House [Re: BDB]
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2468
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
Originally Posted By: BDB
It might be a good idea to order a set of bass strings for these pianos. You can exchange them when they break, and reorder spares afterwards.


They ordered them when they bought the pianos. Not in yet.

They did the same for the K&C's. Those strings are still in the storeroom, so I thought I'd see if I could at least use them as a temporary fix, but the windings are in the wrong position by ~5". Even if I removed some windings to clear the agraffe, the square portion of the wire would pass through it. I figured that would be one compromise too many.
_________________________
Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
[url=www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind]www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind[/url]

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#1926041 - 07/12/12 09:33 PM Re: The Shout!House [Re: BDB]
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2468
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
Originally Posted By: BDB
The good thing is that with two identical pianos, one set should be sufficient, as the chances that the same string will break on both pianos at the same time are slim. It is like why two bathrooms are usually sufficient for several people, while one bathroom may not be sufficient for two people.


Acutally, they bought two sets for the K&C's and they needed them. Over the course of nine years, they broke a lot of bass strings.

And a lot more treble strings...
_________________________
Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
[url=www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind]www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind[/url]

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#1926422 - 07/13/12 06:31 PM Re: The Shout!House [Re: OperaTenor]
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2468
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
Got called in today. One of the unisons that had a broken string already broke the second. Fortunately, the broken string was still in the trash, so I rescued it and spliced.

I asked them to notify the players to save the broken bass strings in the future if at all possible.
_________________________
Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
[url=www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind]www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind[/url]

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#1935194 - 07/31/12 09:29 AM Re: The Shout!House [Re: OperaTenor]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: OperaTenor
Today was my first day back after being in Taiwan for 2-1/2 weeks, and my first tuning on the new pianos(they're Brodmann CE 175's, BTW).



As I expected, no broken strings yet, since they're still so new. I was pleasantly surprised at how smoothly the pins turn on these pianos; they were a pleasure to tune.

I gave them a good cleaning and buffing when I was done. There was dust, sticky rings from drinks being set on them, and of course, show prints from the dancing, already. The piano in the foreground is clean; the one in the background yet to be cleaned.



Jim, you tune left handed ?

I would comment on the position of the lever : this position is good to lower the pitch, when using it to raise a note the pin is directly pushing on its bed;

if I where to tune left hand, I would use the lever on the external of the piano if possible.

It sound possible with that very long tip. However, I would avoid such long tip as a too large source for flagpolling ; very short is not necessary in my view, but "standard" with a moderate angle, seem to suit well my way of doing things.

Do you have a recording of those new pianos that break strings ? why not regulate them with too much key dip and large letoff, so some energy is lost but the pianist can still look like if they try to break the piano (if this necessity is dictated by the show) ?
_________________________
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#1935196 - 07/31/12 09:33 AM Re: The Shout!House [Re: OperaTenor]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France


On that piano , G5 and F#5 for instance, are prone to break strings if played brutally.

Samefor that one :
http://youtu.be/gOV8d7EzwH0


Edited by Kamin (07/31/12 09:42 AM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#1935571 - 08/01/12 12:08 AM Re: The Shout!House [Re: BDB]
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2468
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
Originally Posted By: BDB
It might be a good idea to order a set of bass strings for these pianos. You can exchange them when they break, and reorder spares afterwards.


They had two sets of spare bass strings for the K&C's, and we had agreed it would be best to order sets for the Brodmanns. But, the owners assumed it would be a while before they started popping strings again, so they hadn't ordered them yet. They're on order now.

Right now, I'm jury rigging the old spares to fit if possible.
_________________________
Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
[url=www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind]www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind[/url]

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#1935575 - 08/01/12 12:18 AM Re: The Shout!House [Re: BDB]
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2468
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
Originally Posted By: BDB
The good thing is that with two identical pianos, one set should be sufficient, as the chances that the same string will break on both pianos at the same time are slim. It is like why two bathrooms are usually sufficient for several people, while one bathroom may not be sufficient for two people.


That would be a logical assumption, but, since these pianos play mostly rock n' roll, they play a lot of songs in the same few keys, most A, E, B, and G. As a result, the keys in those strings get hammered the most. In the stage left piano - the *new* one, mind you - E2 has had THREE strings break so far. One of those broke twice.

The SR piano has had Bâ™­2 and G3 break so far.
_________________________
Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
[url=www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind]www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind[/url]

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#1935989 - 08/01/12 06:48 PM Re: The Shout!House [Re: OperaTenor]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
Hey OT,

What is the latest string tally on the new pianos? I only have ten fingers to count on. Oh, I can start using my toes. Do the lid dancers ever jump on the keyboards?

I would sooooooooooooo like to go to that club!!!!!!
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#1941021 - 08/11/12 07:50 PM Re: The Shout!House [Re: Olek]
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2468
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
Originally Posted By: Kamin
Originally Posted By: OperaTenor
Today was my first day back after being in Taiwan for 2-1/2 weeks, and my first tuning on the new pianos(they're Brodmann CE 175's, BTW).



As I expected, no broken strings yet, since they're still so new. I was pleasantly surprised at how smoothly the pins turn on these pianos; they were a pleasure to tune.

I gave them a good cleaning and buffing when I was done. There was dust, sticky rings from drinks being set on them, and of course, show prints from the dancing, already. The piano in the foreground is clean; the one in the background yet to be cleaned.



Jim, you tune left handed ?

I would comment on the position of the lever : this position is good to lower the pitch, when using it to raise a note the pin is directly pushing on its bed;

if I where to tune left hand, I would use the lever on the external of the piano if possible.

It sound possible with that very long tip. However, I would avoid such long tip as a too large source for flagpolling ; very short is not necessary in my view, but "standard" with a moderate angle, seem to suit well my way of doing things.

Do you have a recording of those new pianos that break strings ? why not regulate them with too much key dip and large letoff, so some energy is lost but the pianist can still look like if they try to break the piano (if this necessity is dictated by the show) ?




Isaac, I somehow completely missed this post.

Yes, I tune left-handed; I always have.

As for that long tip, I had only recently gotten it, and was trying it out. I have gone back to my short tip that I've had since 1976.

Regarding letoff adjustment, yes, maybe we'll do just that.
_________________________
Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
[url=www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind]www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind[/url]

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#1942818 - 08/14/12 09:26 PM Re: The Shout!House [Re: OperaTenor]
RonTuner Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1677
Loc: Chicagoland
Hey Jim!

With all of that string swappin' you been doin', got any magic tricks to keep a new string at pitch? Just wondering if you've tried everything and found something that has a better chance of keeping a new bass string at pitch for a good long while...

Ron Koval
_________________________
Piano/instrument technician
www.ronkoval.com
@ronkoval

my piano videos:
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=drwoodwind


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#1955863 - 09/08/12 11:42 AM Re: The Shout!House [Re: RonTuner]
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2468
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
Originally Posted By: RonTuner
Hey Jim!

With all of that string swappin' you been doin', got any magic tricks to keep a new string at pitch? Just wondering if you've tried everything and found something that has a better chance of keeping a new bass string at pitch for a good long while...

Ron Koval


Geez, I missed this.

What I do won't apply to other situations, since i see these pianos every week.

I always do string replacement before I do anything else when I get to the club, and tune the piano with the worst/most broken string(s) last. After I replace the string(s), I come back to it multiple times while I'm doing other things and over pull it by 5-10 cents, and I seem to be able to get a lot of stretch accomplished by doing this before I tune, so it will at least hold for a couple of days without sounding noticeably out of tune. However, by the time I come back the next week, it's usually noticeably bad, but then, I'm there to tune it again.

On a side note(no pun intended), I've discovered I have a knack for remembering what I did previously. I can walk in, open the lid, and remember which strings I replaced from week to week, even the plain wire.

That was a major challenge with the K&C's and all of the broken plain wire strings; most of their instability was due to the sheer volume of strings replaced.
_________________________
Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
[url=www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind]www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind[/url]

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#1955865 - 09/08/12 11:46 AM Re: The Shout!House [Re: OperaTenor]
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2468
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
Bass string update:

The frequency (again, no pun intended) of bass string breakage seems to be falling off. I've only had one let go in the last three weeks. And it was one of my improvised substitutions. I'm half-tempted to attribute that to the weather: Even with A/C, the humidity went up so much the pianos raised ~5 cents across the board in one week.
_________________________
Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
[url=www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind]www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind[/url]

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#1971920 - 10/11/12 04:40 PM Re: The Shout!House [Re: OperaTenor]
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2468
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
Update:

Some of the bass string saga was covered in the other thread on the subject, but I thought I'd put the latest here.

Schaff is making new strings as we speak, and they're doing a little redesign work to lessen the tension and hopefully prevent future breakage.

I took this photo of one of the pianos today, after splicing yet a second string on that one - I always try to splice first if it breaks at the agraffe, especially since at the moment, it's just a matter of time anyway. It's funny, my splices have held as well as the intact strings...

You can also see some of the horrible match-ups with windings. The new strings will have slightly different winding dimensions and will invariably sound different than the originals, but then, how much worse could it possibly be than these duds?

_________________________
Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
[url=www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind]www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind[/url]

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#1972233 - 10/12/12 09:10 AM Re: The Shout!House [Re: OperaTenor]
RonTuner Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1677
Loc: Chicagoland
Are you aware of the pitch lock clips? http://pitchlock.com/pitch-lock-string-couplers/

I find them helpful in unifying the sounding pitch of mis-matched bass strings. It's kinda weird to tune with them - if you tune one string first and then bring the other to tune with it, there is a couple of cent pitch drop. Most of the time I tune with both strings sounding; a little different skill-set!

Some of the unisons in the picture would be hard to fit the clips with the knots - just place them on the bridge end... They are a good "quickie" to have in your bag of tricks! Also good with front segment noise up in the capo section...

Ron Koval
_________________________
Piano/instrument technician
www.ronkoval.com
@ronkoval

my piano videos:
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=drwoodwind


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#1972240 - 10/12/12 09:39 AM Re: The Shout!House [Re: OperaTenor]
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2468
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
Hi Ron, never heard of them. I'll have to look into it, thanks!
_________________________
Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
[url=www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind]www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind[/url]

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#1975094 - 10/18/12 09:36 AM Re: The Shout!House [Re: OperaTenor]
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2468
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
Oh happy day, or so I hope. The new, rescaled, replacement bass strings arrived at my house yesterday, and I'm taking them in to the club today.



We're hoping these, being lower tension, will minimize future breakage. And now, even when we need more replacements in the future, Schaff has the scale on file, and can whip one out whenever we need it.

A big thanks to Ed at Schaff, and to Ron Koval for the help!
_________________________
Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
[url=www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind]www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind[/url]

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#2045870 - 03/10/13 11:03 AM Re: The Shout!House [Re: OperaTenor]
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2468
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
A long overdue update (as if anyone cares...):

About two months after coming up with our own strings, the set from Brodmann arrived. I'm in the process of using them up, along with the strings from Schaff. Despite our rescaling efforts, even the new strings break. But, at least, now we have a steady, reliable supply of replacements from Schaff. They have the scale saved digitally, so I can simply call them up with the string and scale number, and they can whip them out.

One thing remarkable is that we have yet to pop a plain wire string on these pianos. The treble strings have stabilized as a result, and the tunings are easy these days.

I should post pictures of the pianos in their current condition. A lot of the polyester finish is already chipped off the edges of the lids, and the lids are pretty scratched up from people dancing on them. I went to the club one night, and one piano had a 275 lb server holding another employee who had to weigh in at ~175 himself! I could see the legs flex...

But, the pianos are sounding good enough, and everyone's happy.
_________________________
Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
[url=www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind]www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind[/url]

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#2045874 - 03/10/13 11:17 AM Re: The Shout!House [Re: OperaTenor]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
Glad this interesting thread is back!

Photos of the "dance floor" pianos would be great.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2045905 - 03/10/13 12:05 PM Re: The Shout!House [Re: Minnesota Marty]
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2468
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Glad this interesting thread is back!

Photos of the "dance floor" pianos would be great.


I'll take that as an order, Sir! laugh
_________________________
Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
[url=www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind]www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind[/url]

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#2048373 - 03/14/13 07:01 PM Re: The Shout!House [Re: OperaTenor]
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2468
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
As requested, here are photos I took today on the job. They are before and after views, so you can see the signs of use, and what they do to the lids, and what I do to try to instill a little hesitation next time they think of bashing the pianos, for what little good it may do.

This is the edge of the lids, and the chips are from the pianists occasionally standing on the lids (all FOUR of them), beating on the edges with DRUMSTICKS. So, these pianos, which were brand new last June, now look like this:





You can only see one in the center of the bottom photo, but there always at least a few rings from drinks set on the lids during the course of the week, too.

After I tune, I wipe the pianos down, and today I replace the black duct tape that covers the downstage side of the lid edges, to help protect them from the drumming. And yes, the finish chips off even with the duct tape covering it.




The pianos are getting to the point where I'll soon be resurfacing the hammers and doing some regulation; the hammers are grooved and tinny, and there's noticeable slop in the action.

All in a week's work...
_________________________
Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
[url=www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind]www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind[/url]

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#2048379 - 03/14/13 07:20 PM Re: The Shout!House [Re: OperaTenor]
accordeur Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 1229
Loc: Québec, Canada
That's quite the gig you got there!!! Shame for the pianos but good for your business!
_________________________
Jean Poulin

Musician, Tuner and Technician

www.actionpiano.ca

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#2048382 - 03/14/13 07:33 PM Re: The Shout!House [Re: OperaTenor]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
I just read an article about the new Sherman Tank & Sons 6"9" Steel Edition.

Might be worth checking out! whistle
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2048625 - 03/15/13 08:23 AM Re: The Shout!House [Re: OperaTenor]
Ryan Hassell Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/07/09
Posts: 488
Loc: Farmington, MO
Well at least the piano is sitting in caster cups to keep from scratching the floor. :-)
_________________________
Ryan G. Hassell
Hassell's Piano Tuning
Farmington, MO
www.hassellspianotuning.com
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Hassells-Piano-Tuning/163155880804
ryanhassell@hotmail.com

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#2048637 - 03/15/13 09:17 AM Re: The Shout!House [Re: Ryan Hassell]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
Originally Posted By: Ryan Hassell
Well at least the piano is sitting in caster cups to keep from scratching the floor. :-)

_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2048711 - 03/15/13 01:18 PM Re: The Shout!House [Re: OperaTenor]
Cinnamonbear Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3991
Loc: Rockford, IL
Hey OperaTenor--

How 'bout 1" foam pipe insulation to protect that edge? It would crimp on by its own pressure, and it's flexible!

http://www.lowes.com/pd_24434-1410-P12XB/6_0__
_________________________
I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.

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#2049465 - 03/17/13 02:57 AM Re: The Shout!House [Re: Cinnamonbear]
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2468
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
Originally Posted By: Cinnamonbear
Hey OperaTenor--

How 'bout 1" foam pipe insulation to protect that edge? It would crimp on by its own pressure, and it's flexible!

http://www.lowes.com/pd_24434-1410-P12XB/6_0__


Since people climb on and off the lids so much, they'd pull the rubitex off in no time at all, I think.
_________________________
Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
[url=www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind]www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind[/url]

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#2049494 - 03/17/13 05:01 AM Re: The Shout!House [Re: OperaTenor]
miscrms Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/29/12
Posts: 187
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
I'm thinking spray on bedliner smile

If you haven't seen the Mythbusters episode where they investigate its alternate uses, I'd highly recommend it for inspiration. wink

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7Pty4NmVyI&feature=youtube_gdata_player
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JOXrpCLCJg&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Rob
_________________________
1874 Steinway Upright "Franken" Stein

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#2049512 - 03/17/13 06:28 AM Re: The Shout!House [Re: OperaTenor]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
I would reorient the casters so the flex of the leg is oriented toward the reinforced part of it. In time, that external position can also bend a little the keybed.


I seem to notice a scratch on the lid.. Probably just a defect of the picture...
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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