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#1928818 - 07/18/12 11:53 PM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: Kbeaumont]
Rhodie73 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/11/08
Posts: 143
Loc: New York
Sorry for coming to the party late, but I must say that this could be very promising for Casio! Like many have said here, Mike Martin please pass our suggestions on to the developers over at Casio. Please have them really program professional dynamic electric pianos (Rhodes and Wurlitzers) better than what was previously available. I've noticed that there are the same number of other tones (250) as previous Privia models (330 and the PX-3). I hope that you guys take advantage of your new AiR chip and simply don't do a rehash of previous samples.

Also Mike would it be possible to suggest opening up and unlocking some of those new parameters available like sympathetic resonance and possible key off? Please don't skimp on features just to protect sales from a higher end model. Make the PX-350 be the higher portable stage model with Casio's top features so that more professional musicians would see that you guys mean business and really consider using your keyboards on stage live.

Mike would it be possible to unlock the sympathic resonance and key off effect (while still keeping the damper resonance) in the PX-350 and make it compete with the likes of the big boys ex: Yamaha, Roland, Kawai and Korg? I'm sorry for the ranting on, but like many others on this forum, I see the potential of these new Privias and am really considering one when they are available.
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#1928827 - 07/19/12 12:35 AM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: Rhodie73]
voxpops Offline
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Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 3083
Loc: Oregon
Originally Posted By: Rhodie73
Make the PX-350 be the higher portable stage model with Casio's top features so that more professional musicians would see that you guys mean business and really consider using your keyboards on stage live.

+1 thumb
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#1928885 - 07/19/12 05:10 AM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: Rhodie73]
rnaple Offline

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Registered: 12/23/10
Posts: 2107
Loc: Rocky Mountains
Originally Posted By: Rhodie73
... Mike Martin please pass our suggestions...Also Mike would it be possible to suggest...
Mike would it be possible to ...


Mike is hiding in the corner...begging God to forgive him for posting on this forum.
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#1928909 - 07/19/12 06:59 AM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: Kbeaumont]
JFP Offline
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Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 1336
Loc: The Netherlands
Marketing wise (since it's those guys that seem to decide and spoil everything anyway , together with the management team ) it would be an idea to have the 'unlock' features as a paid upgrade option. You buy px350 without resonance and purchase an upgrade pack for $$ to unlock extra features. Similar in the way that many software packages are sold. Same beast, just need some unlock codes to get acces to some extra features.

Heck, these instruments are sort of computers with software anyway - so nothing new there..as long as the same chipsets are used over the whole range (very likely). I would say do yourself a favor and put the same electronics and software (firmware) in the whole range and differentiate between them (only) through there hardware features. Cabinet, speaker system, keybed, connections , stuff like that...

Just an idea ; do you get a downsized (feature poor) version of your operating system, when you buy a cheaper model computer ?. E.g. all Macs come with a full Osx from Mac mini, to octacore Mac Pro - they are differentiated in hardware specs and options. DP makers do just that; you get a lower model - than the machine will also have a light version of the OS letting you only use email and nothing else. Get the idea...


Edited by JFP (07/19/12 07:05 AM)

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#1928928 - 07/19/12 07:48 AM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: Kbeaumont]
Vectistim Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/17/10
Posts: 317
Loc: Reading, UK
Whilst we would all like the 350 to have the same feature set as the 850 - I can see there's a problem in trying to distinguish between the myriad of almost identical machines - in particular I can see them wanting to hang on to some of these features for an updated PX3, which I would expect to be announced in a year.

Question for Mike: I haven't tried line out from my 330, but there have been comments here about its implementation being a bit useless with the requirement for a headphone jack to cancel the onboard speakers and the addition of a headphone jack altering the sound sent to line out. Has this been corrected?

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#1928936 - 07/19/12 07:59 AM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: JFP]
anotherscott Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3291
I think you guys may be taking the word "unlock" a little too literally.

i.e. the new "AIR" sound engine may have the ability to do something, but the key to "unlocking" the functionality may not be as simple as deciding to enable it; it may require additional hardware be installed as well.

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#1929009 - 07/19/12 11:05 AM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: Vectistim]
Mike_Martin Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/21/09
Posts: 388
Originally Posted By: Vectistim
Question for Mike: I haven't tried line out from my 330, but there have been comments here about its implementation being a bit useless with the requirement for a headphone jack to cancel the on-board speakers and the addition of a headphone jack altering the sound sent to line out. Has this been corrected?


Corrected? That makes the assumption that it isn't done that way on purpose. cool The majority of players I speak to prefer to have the built-in speakers ON even when the Privia is amplified elsewhere. Why? They like to feel the vibration coming from within the Privia cabinet itself. I've had number of people tell me that they preferred the PX-330 of the PX-3 for this reason alone. So to answer your question, the PX-350 works exactly the same way as the PX-330 in this regard.

Originally Posted By: anotherscott
I think you guys may be taking the word "unlock" a little too literally.
i.e. the new "AIR" sound engine may have the ability to do something, but the key to "unlocking" the functionality may not be as simple as deciding to enable it; it may require additional hardware be installed as well.


My fault for using that word but Scott is correct, this isn't just a software "switch".



Edited by Mike_Martin (07/19/12 11:13 AM)
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#1929024 - 07/19/12 11:37 AM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: Kbeaumont]
toddy Online   content
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Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 1751
Loc: Portugal
Vect:
there have been comments here about its implementation being a bit useless with the requirement for [1] a headphone jack to cancel the on-board speakers and [2] the addition of a headphone jack altering the sound sent to line out. Has this been corrected?

Mike:
Corrected? That makes the assumption that it isn't done that way on purpose.

Does that also apply to [2] If so, will it remain that way?
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#1929033 - 07/19/12 11:49 AM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: Kbeaumont]
Mike_Martin Offline
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Registered: 07/21/09
Posts: 388
The only way to disable the speakers on the PX-350 is by plugging (something) into the headphone jack. Does that answer your question?
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#1929041 - 07/19/12 12:05 PM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: Kbeaumont]
toddy Online   content
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Registered: 09/30/11
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Hi Mike. No, that answers point [1] - which is clear (that is the same system as on my DP). But it does not address point [2], mentioned above, which would perhaps affect the line out's usefulness, as Vectistim suggested.
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#1929047 - 07/19/12 12:33 PM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: Mike_Martin]
anotherscott Offline
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Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3291
Originally Posted By: Mike_Martin
The only way to disable the speakers on the PX-350 is by plugging (something) into the headphone jack. Does that answer your question?

As I understand it, the issue is that, when you plug something into the headphone jack (whether for the purpose of using headphones, or just to silence the speaker), at least some Privia models add an EQ to the sound that is optimized for headphones, and that EQ is applied even at the Line Outs. Ideally, the Line Out should be unaltered... there is no reason I can imagine for wanting a headphone-optimized EQ to ever appear at the line out.

It becomes an issue if you prefer to silence the speakers during amplified live performance, since the signal being sent to the house is pre-equalized for headphones, and therefore no longer its best. I happen to be one of the people who prefers the speakers to be on for the reason you mentioned (and it is one reason I bemoan the loss of the PX330 speakers on the otherwise far superior PX3), but there are people who would rather turn the speakers off for one reason or another.

It also would be an issue if you are recording your performance into a DAW or whatever, and have chosen to silence the board's internal speakers with the headphone jack insertion (perhaps you're recording late at night). You can't get a "neutral" signal to record if anything is plugged into the headphone jack.

So there are numerous downsides to altering the line out EQ depending on whether or not the headphone jack is activated, and no upside. I suspect it was just an unfortunate by-product of the way it is engineered, that it can't apply the optimized headphone EQ to the EQ jacks without also applying it to the Line Out jacks, that whatever it does in one place is necessarily duplicated at the other.

If that's the case, and they can still make software mods to the new models, the easiest way to address it might be a menu setting that allows someone to disable the headphone EQ, so that even if something is plugged into the headphone jack, no such EQ is engaged. That way, although you lose the headphone optimized EQ in the phones, you still get the desired neutral sound out the Line Out, even when something is plugged into the headphone jack.

BTW, the Yamaha NP-V80 has a feature where you can select from 5 different EQ settings: two designed for optimum sound through the internal speakers, one designed for headphones, and two designed for use with external speakers. In frustrating Yamaha manner, however, even their own tech support could not tell me the difference between the two external settings, or even whether any setting corresponded to "flat" (i.e. what would be the most neutral to use, independent of playback system, i.e. for recording).

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#1929091 - 07/19/12 01:51 PM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: Kbeaumont]
Kbeaumont Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/26/10
Posts: 265
Loc: Virginia, USA
Mike on page E-7 of the PX-330 manual there is a warning:

Quote:
The Digital Piano automatically adjust output for headphone output, this will cause a change in output quality of the Digital Piano Line out and L/Mono outputs


I have found it seems to be more than just eq, the stereo image also changes.

Using a 1/4" to 1/8" adapter inserted into the headphone jack isn't the issue, the issue is the output quality of the Line out jacks is altered. If they still have that "feature" its truly sad, because this has been brought up numerous times on various forums.




Edited by Kbeaumont (07/19/12 01:54 PM)
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#1929092 - 07/19/12 01:53 PM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: Kbeaumont]
Mike_Martin Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/21/09
Posts: 388
AnotherScott,
I honestly don't know how or if EQ is implemented this way on the new PX-_50 series. Clearly I missed this being brought up as an issue previously with the current line and I've never investigated this myself. I'm traveling a lot over the next couple weeks. Hopefully around the end of the month when I'm back in the office with a PX-350 prototype, I can look into this further.
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#1929203 - 07/19/12 05:37 PM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: anotherscott]
sullivang Online   blank
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2220
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Originally Posted By: anotherscott
there is no reason I can imagine for wanting a headphone-optimized EQ to ever appear at the line out.


It would make sense to to have the option to optimise the line outs for headphones if using a headphone amp connected to the line outs. I think most folks who were using a quality headphone amp would prefer to use the line outs.

As a PX-330 owner I agree with everything else you said though.

Greg.


Edited by sullivang (07/19/12 05:38 PM)

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#1929910 - 07/20/12 06:46 PM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: Kbeaumont]
jrcallan Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 367
Loc: Pennsylvania
Does the 330/350 not have a "local control" command to silence the on-board speakers? My Casio AP-45 console does. When I'm using a software piano through a midi interface, I don't want to hear the piano's speakers.

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#1929919 - 07/20/12 07:00 PM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: Kbeaumont]
sullivang Online   blank
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2220
Loc: Sydney, Australia
@jrcallan: Yes, it does, however that's irrelevant to the problem being discussed. We want to be able to connect the DP up to external equipment, without having the speakers on, and without having the headphone optimisation. Disabling "local control" disables the internal sounds entirely, so it's not a solution.
You could simply turn the volume down to zero to achieve the same result. smile (however disabling local control seems to be important for me when using software pianos and using USB MIDI - I get too much latency otherwise. It shouldn't be like that - it's a problem IMHO)

Greg.

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#1930358 - 07/21/12 04:58 PM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: Kbeaumont]
bluebilly Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/19/10
Posts: 439
Loc: England
I've only just caught up with this thread. I'm particularly busy elsewhere these days. This new Casio range is exciting, I've always liked the Privia PX-8xxx range, everything but the wobbly keys. As I'm in "change my piano" mood at the moment I'm looking forward to trying out the new pianos here in the UK. If Casio have sorted the keyboard, I'll be donating my CN33 to one of my granddaughters and getting one of the new Casio's.

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#1930362 - 07/21/12 05:15 PM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: bluebilly]
jarosujo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/12/12
Posts: 237
Loc: Slovakia
Originally Posted By: bluebilly
I'll be donating my CN33 to one of my granddaughters and getting one of the new Casio's.

You think it's upgrade compared to CN33 ?


Edited by jarosujo (07/21/12 05:18 PM)
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#1930366 - 07/21/12 05:23 PM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: Kbeaumont]
gvfarns Offline
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Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3483
Loc: Pennsylvania
Yeah, that sounds like a mistake. I'd suggest getting the casio and giving whichever piano you like less to your granddaughters (or the other way around, depending on how important you think their piano experience is). Or better yet, wait until you can actually play these Casios before forming an opinion on them.

Upgrades notwithstanding, it's unlikely that the new casios will really be on par with your kawai in most ways.


Edited by gvfarns (07/21/12 05:24 PM)

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#1930532 - 07/22/12 03:39 AM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: Kbeaumont]
JFP Offline
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Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 1336
Loc: The Netherlands
Yep, but if (that's a big if) the keybed is better than before and comparable to the KAWAI , then KAWAI is in trouble I guess. Still , I doubt the keybed has the same quality, durability and QC. Let's wait and see...

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#1930559 - 07/22/12 07:15 AM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: JFP]
dewster Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: JFP
Yep, but if (that's a big if) the keybed is better than before...

They already have three sensors, graded hammer weights, and fake ivory/ebony tops in the PX-3. So my bet is the all new! key action in these 4 models isn't all that new.

Can anyone comment on the PX-3 action, specifically in comparison to the PX-130/330 action?
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#1930566 - 07/22/12 07:46 AM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: Kbeaumont]
JFP Offline
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Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 1336
Loc: The Netherlands
I know the previous Casio three sensor ivory keybeds , but they are not on par with the RH (II).

Although they are very (!) lightweight - Casio deserves the term portable , as with the fatar tp100 based pianos (sp8, numa piano etc). For the mp6 es7 and phaIII based Roland's I' m not so convinced (still bulky to carry around). So if they come with a lightweight revised keybed at Casio that is really as good as RH / PHAIII, that would be a winner...

My guess is you can't have both - very lighweight and the best piano keybed - and there will always be a trade-off.

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#1930567 - 07/22/12 07:48 AM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: dewster]
anotherscott Offline
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Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3291
Originally Posted By: dewster

They already have three sensors, graded hammer weights, and fake ivory/ebony tops in the PX-3. So my bet is the all new! key action in these 4 models isn't all that new.

Actions can easily have same # sensors, gradedness, and matte finish and be totally different (in important ways we don't have buzzwords for). So I'll give them the benefit of the doubt here.

Originally Posted By: dewster
Can anyone comment on the PX-3 action, specifically in comparison to the PX-130/330 action?

I am quite sure Mike Martin from Casio has confirmed that all three keybeds are identical except for the matte finish of the PX3.

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#1930570 - 07/22/12 07:56 AM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: anotherscott]
dewster Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: anotherscott
I am quite sure Mike Martin from Casio has confirmed that all three keybeds are identical except for the matte finish of the PX3.

Thanks!

My bet that this is just the PX-3 action is tad cynical, but in this market (as Lily Tomlin said) "No matter how cynical I get, I just can't keep up."
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#1930579 - 07/22/12 08:23 AM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: Kbeaumont]
anotherscott Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3291
At least Casio did not over-sell the PX-3 action as new... as far as I can remember, they never claimed it was "all new," the only new feature they claimed for it was the ivory finish.

Posted by Mike in another forum: "The new models have both a new action and a new piano sound."

and in another forum, in response to a question of "I know the ebony keys on the new Privias are totally new, but I'm wondering if the ivory on the whites is the same as the PX-3 (and the 830, I think it was) or new as well." he answered "All new. :-)"

and in this forum, "The key bed has also been improved, while I'm not an engineer and I haven't had an opportunity to take one apart the action simply feels better and yes there is less side to side movement. The new 'Ebony and Ivory' texture to the keys is also a huge improvement, much better than the text we've done on the AP-420, AP-620 and PX-3." This was in the "P95 and Casio PX-x30 series owners:-will you upgrade?" thread.

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#1930582 - 07/22/12 08:35 AM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: Kbeaumont]
JFP Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 1336
Loc: The Netherlands
Let's just wait and see when the unbiased user reports start to dripple in. Can't wait. Unfortunately this will still only be first impressions; how the keybed holds on the long run and when it has been a bit mistreated en moved around (portables ) will take a while longer to judge. First owners of the new series , please write a review !

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#1930605 - 07/22/12 09:53 AM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: Kbeaumont]
sullivang Online   blank
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Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2220
Loc: Sydney, Australia
RE: Brislin's improvisation demo, IMHO it actually does have places where he holds notes for a reasonably long time, especially in the bass, which I think is where it matters most. (still not as long as I'd like, but it's not as bad as I was expecting)

I think I can hear the richer sympathetic resonance - it sounds good.

Greg.


Edited by sullivang (07/22/12 09:55 AM)

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#1930633 - 07/22/12 11:14 AM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: anotherscott]
dewster Online   content
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Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: anotherscott
Posted by Mike in another forum: "The new models have both a new action and a new piano sound."

Cool! I didn't know there was that much info regarding the new keys out there. Thanks anotherscott!
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#1930647 - 07/22/12 11:40 AM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: sullivang]
dewster Online   content
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Registered: 12/07/09
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Originally Posted By: sullivang
RE: Brislin's improvisation demo, IMHO it actually does have places where he holds notes for a reasonably long time, especially in the bass, which I think is where it matters most. (still not as long as I'd like, but it's not as bad as I was expecting)

I think I can hear the richer sympathetic resonance - it sounds good.

OK, you've got me going back and listening to it again too.

From the low note sustain it seems like he's just mashing and holding the pedal down most of the time - agreed?

If so, I'm not hearing much in the way of sympathetic resonance. It almost sounds like he's using the sostenuto pedal for the bass notes because the mid and upper notes aren't running together like a watercolor left out in the rain (like a real AP would behave). And I'm hearing fairly short decay times on those low notes. As well as kind of vaguely fake tinkly sounding upper mids.

I'll reserve final judgment until someone sends me a DPBSD MP3, but my enthusiasm for this product release is rapidly waning.
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#1930669 - 07/22/12 12:17 PM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: Kbeaumont]
galaxy4t Offline
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Registered: 08/28/08
Posts: 854
Loc: Lakewood, CA
dewster, according to Mike, smpathetic reasonance and the 256 polyphony are reserved for the PX-850. Brislin was playing a PX-350 which will not have it. He did also mention the piano sample is new but recorded off the same piano as the Pxx-30 series. The sustain of the sample is supposed to be substantially longer. You will have to find someone with a PX-850 to submit a DPBSD to hear the sympathetic resonance. These new models should be better given the price increase.


Edited by galaxy4t (07/22/12 12:24 PM)

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