Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix

I tried but not on a pinblock, in a block of soft wood and the carboard seem to provide a grip sensation, but it seem to me that the carboard have turned to powder in the hole (I have seen powder once the pin is taken out) May be the glue is helping to raise the friction, as it cannot be the thickness of the cardboard that provided it in that case.

It may be better than to use abrasive. In that very soft wood it worked better than the brass shims, that is why I believe it have to do with the material.

I will try to do more tests with a wrench & measuring torque , in new holes and in a new piece of block. I will compare with the poplar shims I have (I was told to use hard wood as oak, but our veneer those days is not as good as it was when I learned; It is thinner and sliced; old veener can be took of from old boards.
Long time I did not do that, but I recall sometime the pins where really difficult to turn with the veener.

What bothers me is not that you are pleased with your method, but you did not want to try others that are accessible (it may not be difficult to find some veeners or chips of hard wood)

Dear Kamin, I'm really glad and honor for me, what do You so much and write about it properly. If You will do it, then regardless as result I'll be grateful to you for your experiments. Corrugated or poplar? What of better? Looking forward to your acts and your test verdict. To be or not to be ..

Roy,

Unfortunately I can't find it now, but I remember that a few months ago, an experienced technician posted on this forum that when he was training (I think in the 1980s), at his school they did exactly such an experiment comparing all the various repairs for loose tuning pins. (I think it included oversize pin, metal shim, wood veneer shim, sandpaper, cardboard and perhaps some others.)

I do remember what he wrote about the result: initially, all the repairs provided adequate grip. But they did not last equally long. The cardboard repair was the first one to fail.

Perhaps the technician who posted that can point us to the post. I think it was in one of Max's previous threads.

One more plus of shim corrugated cardboard
In my daily practice, often have to install it's in the (C#3-F#3) малая октава. Pins in this place are very close to each other. Destroyed by the hole of pinblock can not fix if we shall hammering oversize pin to hammer. If to repair hammering on pin, it loses his integrity. Because the wooden wall of the hole into pinblock and to bush of increasing pressure from the pin here . If we shall hammer repairs or shim pin is, it inevitably increases the burden on the already weakened the wooden wall , and thus will inevitably suffer, located adjacent the nearby hole of pinblock and it's bush. Conclusion: Use only the method of screwing in the area (C#3-F#3), use a shim or oversize pin. Don't hammer here! Only to screw a shim corrugated cardboard

[quote=Mark R.] a few months ago, an experienced technician posted on this forum that when he was training (I think in the 1980s), at his school they did exactly such an experiment comparing all the various repairs for loose tuning pins. (I think it included oversize pin, metal shim, wood veneer shim, sandpaper, cardboard and perhaps some others.)
he wrote about the result: initially, all the repairs provided adequate grip. But they did not last equally long. The cardboard repair was the first one to fail.

Greetings,
That was me. It was at the North Bennett Street School. We were expected to know how all approaches worked. Everything from sandpaper shims to Garfield's Pinblock Restorer!
The cardboard got soft quicker than anything.

I guess so too, but the hypothesis could be that the glue within the cardboard is changing the effect, acting as a resin. Did you use cardboard or corrugated in that testing ?

Standard cardboard cannot do much , if it happens that the glue contained in the corrugated cardboard add something may be some added product could be used so to fix more the powder or to thicken where necessary.

Dear Mark R, I very well remember the remark. But I have to say and clarify the there to it was spoken about the classical shim. I already wrote that my shim have are two components . First part is destroyed as result screwing pin and second part it's product cellulose microparticles separated from basic body. It to make filling the cracks in the oval-destroy hole of pinblock

Ed Foote,If I understand you correctly cardboard has been recognized as a result of these experiments is not the worst of other materials

No Max it was the one that failed the most rapidly (when the tuning pin was worked after the experiment).
But we have no precision about the kind of carboard used.

Interesting thread so far.

I hope next week to be back in the shop. (Brown recluse bites aren't very nice).

I have some work to catch up after being down a bit, but should be some time to play around.

I have tried the sand paper repair.

I was young and dumb and tried the metal split shims. (Still have a ton of those left).

So far other than replacing the pin block I have had the best results with CA glue.

I agree with You Kamin, we do not know a type of the cardboard and its thickness. Is the technology, which they did used in 1980? Did they hammered or screwed a pin?
This we can only hear from Ed Forte

Greetings,
All pins were hammered. A basic tenet of the stringing we learned was the less rotation a pin endures, the greater its useful life. When I repair a string, I need 1/2 turn out and back, to leave the new wire at pitch. I see where techs have turned the pin out and then back in in winding the coil. These pins are always looser than their neighbors.

I ascribe this to lack of technique. Some techs just don't care, and nothing can be done about them. Some simply don't know how to repair strings very well, and every break is fraught with peril. Splicing and replacing strings takes all of an hour to master, at most. Beginners would do well to just do it over and over until it is a smooth, easy bit of piano technology. Practice with copper wire, see where the wire bends and where it kinks. In school, Eddie Coglan,who was one of the last quality control guys at Mason & Hamilin, (I think) mentioned "wire sense" as a skill that comes from handling it. Repairing a string once a month is not going to create a fluidity to the work. Practice till perfect in the shop, and be armed against a rather persistent and pervasive irritant.

Yes, a splice can be used on A1, and there is no need to scratch the paint if one thinks through the process before beginning, and knows what to look for. Knowing where the curve wants to go, how to move it around without bending it, how to tie bends, (they really aren't "knots"), and loops. It all comes from repetitive use. Standing on the stage is no time to begin trying to figure out how it goes.

I was a better stringer after every restringing I did. Only problem now is remembering what I learned the last time.
Regards,

Yes, CA glue! I use it all the time. Quick and effective.

Thank Ed Foote, if you wrote, they were scored it's. I now haven't ask question as to why the cardboard in 1980 as shown a result of "a bad shim" in contrast to other materials. When I was young, I also scored a pin begins set under it cardboard corrugated shim. The result was negative. You have not answered what had used type of cardboard in 80 year. If the pin to hammer, then the effect will be equal to 0(zero) or even worse than it was, because:
1 Shim it is displaced into the hole and shrank (cringes)
2 pin in the hole will be located at offset
3 cardboard pin collapses and simply slips on it until the end of the hole
4 The separated particles of paper from the basic shim don't evenly accumulates and stick on the walls of hole pinblock. As a result this operation (pin-shim-pinblock), the pressure did not significantly increase

Geez Max, just get some CA. Even where you live, it should be possible. You have an internet connection. Come on.

If fast it always qualitatively? My method to replace a (1) pin sometimes I spent more than an half hour. The whole procedure is tedious and requires heavy physical force during the screwing pin into block. However,I have thank this method ,because the native pin find "new life" with the increased friction

Excuse me accordeur, but I do need the miraculous adhesives that can help in problem lost pins. The method of the premises of any glue in the hole of pinblock, I think it is wrong and harmful to any vertical

You obviously have not tried CA. It is quite miraculous compared to other methods.

accordeur,I have not tried use CA. However, not all participants in the forum so categorical about the effectiveness of its use for solving this problem. Earlier it was said that the composition of the adhesive have any % acrylic. I'm sure that as a result of after drying acrylic the friction will be more. Synthetic mix of glass don't adds significantly friction. However, this is just my guess. If CA is well recommended and really works, then you need to apply this method

I have saved many pianos, now played by children and families. Those pianos, before CA treatment, I would of sent to the dump.

You can guess all you like, just try it, you will see.

Almost everyone on this forum has been trying to help you, you should be more appreciative and open to things, it will help your bottom line.