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#1925792 - 07/12/12 10:50 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Loren D]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7252
Loc: France
The fact is that you may broke strings if you cannot keep the orivinal coils. but then, if you cannot have access to a pair of round nose pliers you have little solution.
Imostly write to explain Max followers that other means exis.
And BTW , the way he manipulates the tuning pin is not what I would call "no side effect" in the end the pinblock is ovalized and more shims may be necessary.
It is not indispensable to install thicker pins unless the whole piano is also re stringed . On antics where the original pin Have to be kept, wood shims are used (veener) . Possibly some resin or colophon could help.

To get a coil out you turn 1 turn back and use a small screwdiriver to open it . Then the tuning pin is extracted, 2 small veener shims installed k, the coil put back on the pin and thewhole thing is hammered.

But it is also possible to put the coil back once the pin is in place.
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#1926167 - 07/13/12 06:31 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Olek]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1498
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Kamin

Imostly write to explain Max followers that other means exis.
And BTW , the way he manipulates the tuning pin is not what I would call "no side effect" in the end the pinblock is ovalized and more shims may be necessary.

Isaac, je ne m'attendais pas à une telle lire ici. Si je vous comprends bien vous reconnaissez l'efficacité de la cale de carton ondulé lorsque l'utilisation dans le trou le sommier est une (oval) ellipse. Je vous remercie pour cette remarque, je suis reconnaissant pour la réponse technique compétent pour le problème de décision.
Isaac,I did not expect such a read here. If I understand you correctly you acknowledge the efficiency of use corrugated cardboard shim when in the pinblock's hole is ellipse . Thank you for this remark, I am thankful for the competent technical answer for the decision problem.
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A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#1926372 - 07/13/12 04:44 PM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Olek]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2356
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Originally Posted By: Kamin
The fact is that you may broke strings if you cannot keep the orivinal coils. but then, if you cannot have access to a pair of round nose pliers you have little solution.
Imostly write to explain Max followers that other means exis.
And BTW , the way he manipulates the tuning pin is not what I would call "no side effect" in the end the pinblock is ovalized and more shims may be necessary.
It is not indispensable to install thicker pins unless the whole piano is also re stringed . On antics where the original pin Have to be kept, wood shims are used (veener) . Possibly some resin or colophon could help.




To get a coil out you turn 1 turn back and use a small screwdiriver to open it . Then the tuning pin is extracted, 2 small veener shims installed k, the coil put back on the pin and thewhole thing is hammered.

But it is also possible to put the coil back once the pin is in place.


I tried looking up "colophon" on line and found nothing that makes sense...what is this?

Also, if your hammering back in a pin, I can suggest leaving it about the thickness of coin, higher than the rest of the pins. When you bring it back up to pitch, it should end up at the right height.
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#1926389 - 07/13/12 05:29 PM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Emmery]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7252
Loc: France
sorry the "colophon" is the resin used on violin bow...
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#1926503 - 07/13/12 11:18 PM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Emmery]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1498
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Emmery
Originally Posted By: Kamin
The fact is that you may broke strings if you cannot keep the orivinal coils. but then, if you cannot have access to a pair of round nose pliers you have little solution.
Imostly write to explain Max followers that other means exis.
And BTW , the way he manipulates the tuning pin is not what I would call "no side effect" in the end the pinblock is ovalized and more shims may be necessary.
It is not indispensable to install thicker pins unless the whole piano is also re stringed . On antics where the original pin Have to be kept, wood shims are used (veener) . Possibly some resin or colophon could help.




To get a coil out you turn 1 turn back and use a small screwdiriver to open it . Then the tuning pin is extracted, 2 small veener shims installed k, the coil put back on the pin and thewhole thing is hammered.

But it is also possible to put the coil back once the pin is in place.


I tried looking up "colophon" on line and found nothing that makes sense...what is this?

Also, if your hammering back in a pin, I can suggest leaving it about the thickness of coin, higher than the rest of the pins. When you bring it back up to pitch, it should end up at the right height.

That is, if I understand you right, Emmery recommend not to finish off process we work are hammering and a pin the size of the thickness of the coin between pins? And then in the process of tuning when we shall screw it the way to equalize this pin, as the location of all others
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#1926507 - 07/13/12 11:27 PM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Olek]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1498
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Kamin
sorry the "colophon" is the resin used on violin bow...

Thank Kamin,rosin (colophony, resin) is very good if you first rub it's "sick pin" when a pin off. I shall definitely try it. Russin version name "канифоль"
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#1926554 - 07/14/12 04:28 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Loren D]
Alexandr Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/08/12
Posts: 11
Loc: USSR,Leningrad.
The fact that little material in the network settings on the instrument. At the same maxim_tuner of all well-described and placed "on the shelves." Now, why exactly his way. At first I did not have a special hammer and other tools yet (and now they do not). Secondly, that clog the pegs with a hammer, I learned from him and he said you can not do so. Fully sharing his opinions, I decided to try the easiest method - cardboard. After all, as I wrote in my last letter, I worked on the railroad, and the effectiveness of these techniques are no doubt several

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#1926561 - 07/14/12 05:15 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Maximillyan]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7252
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: Kamin
sorry the "colophon" is the resin used on violin bow...

Thank Kamin,rosin (colophony, resin) is very good if you first rub it's "sick pin" when a pin off. I shall definitely try it. Russin version name "канифоль"


Some technicians used to dip the pin in resin or in varnish when mounting new pins. it is not common, and on a good pinblock it may create "cracking pins" which is not good.

But when working on original pin and old block, some resin powder in the hole could possibly help (I would not use a diluted solution, if the wood fibers are gled with the resin possibly the effect will be bad)

I did not try that, it is just an idea.

About installing the pin while turning it, it may be interesting to compute the enlarging of the 7. mm pin with heat. this is what cause the pinblock to suffer, possibly the heat also is not good for the glue that hold the ply of the block and then the friction lowers.

WHen we find pianos with replaced strings and the technician have screwed the new string (only 3 turns, not as much as when the whole pin is out) the torque of those pins is way lower and they are the first to fail 10-15 years ago.

When repairing things on pianos, the good state of mind is to fix the things so they stay repaired very long.
The "quick and dirty" is not compatible with musical instruments.

When it comes to loose pins, the most important thing is to understand how to "set the pin" so it is not necessary to tune so often. On old wire we have no probelms with wire elongation or loosing its pitch, little friction and bends are enough to keep the piano tuned at an accepteable level.

mating the bends once the piano is tuned, trying to have a light torque in the pin (possibly twisted on itself , I wish I can test that someday), a 1900-30 piano can stay tuned for 2-3 years under normal use, and even more in good conditions. the pitch drop can be around .5 Hz in 10 years, so if the piano is tuned correctly it will stay accepteable..

Then for a concert I am pleased to tune the piano twice the same day wink

When it comes to the money spend by the customer, it is better spend by maintening the action in shape than tuning every so often.

For some customers I even invite them to buy a tuning lever, use a good software, and keep their piano tuned, particularely if it is not a first grade instrument or if it have no particular musical value.

But they HAVE to understand what is going on with the pin and the wire, how to hold the tuning lever so the stress is minimal on the block, .. or they will do no good to their piano...





Edited by Kamin (07/14/12 05:17 AM)
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#1926562 - 07/14/12 05:19 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Maximillyan]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7252
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: Emmery
Originally Posted By: Kamin
The fact is that you may broke strings if you cannot keep the orivinal coils. but then, if you cannot have access to a pair of round nose pliers you have little solution.
Imostly write to explain Max followers that other means exis.
And BTW , the way he manipulates the tuning pin is not what I would call "no side effect" in the end the pinblock is ovalized and more shims may be necessary.
It is not indispensable to install thicker pins unless the whole piano is also re stringed . On antics where the original pin Have to be kept, wood shims are used (veener) . Possibly some resin or colophon could help.




To get a coil out you turn 1 turn back and use a small screwdiriver to open it . Then the tuning pin is extracted, 2 small veener shims installed k, the coil put back on the pin and thewhole thing is hammered.

But it is also possible to put the coil back once the pin is in place.


I tried looking up "colophon" on line and found nothing that makes sense...what is this?

Also, if your hammering back in a pin, I can suggest leaving it about the thickness of coin, higher than the rest of the pins. When you bring it back up to pitch, it should end up at the right height.

That is, if I understand you right, Emmery recommend not to finish off process we work are hammering and a pin the size of the thickness of the coin between pins? And then in the process of tuning when we shall screw it the way to equalize this pin, as the location of all others


The pin goes down the thickness of a coin with 2 turns
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#1926594 - 07/14/12 08:24 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Olek]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1498
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Kamin
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: Kamin
sorry the "colophon" is the resin used on violin bow...

Thank Kamin,rosin (colophony, resin) is very good if you first rub it's "sick pin" when a pin off. I shall definitely try it. Russin version name "канифоль"


But when working on original pin and old block, some resin powder in the hole could possibly help (I would not use a diluted solution, if the wood fibers are gled with the resin possibly the effect will be bad)

I did not try that, it is just an idea.

About installing the pin while turning it, it may be interesting to compute the enlarging of the 7. mm pin with heat. this is what cause the pinblock to suffer, possibly the heat also is not good for the glue that hold the ply of the block and then the friction lowers.


Kamin, you really convinced me not to rub colophony a pin if we make a method of reinstallation (cardboard shim). Because here would be very increased friction between a pin and a hole's pinblock. It's can damage the quality whole pinblock . Would be also be a negative interaction a colophony with the adhesive and a fibers of a pinblock .
But for me it is still controversial a theme about a harm 7mm pin when turn it's into pindlock. I wrote earlier that the hammer blow no less devastating for the whole pinblock . If we theoretically to turned pin into a pinblock very slowly with interruptions the threat of the pinblock will be brought to a minimum
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#1926605 - 07/14/12 08:50 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Loren D]
Johnkie Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/04/11
Posts: 688
Loc: England
Kamin:

I have never heard of resin being used with wrestpins. French chalk yes, but resin?

Surely resin (as used on such as violin bows) is something to increase friction, but not the same type of friction required for wrestpins.

Resin tends to be very sticky, and would cause immense problems with wrestpin setting ... you know the sort of thing where the smallest of movements become impossible because the pins are sticking so badly in the block, instead of being tight but "smoothly adjustable"

What I'm trying to say is that resin would be ideal in situations where two components need to be permanently fixed, but only counter-productive where fine adjustment is the paramount requirement.
_________________________
Concert Tuner & Technician for the past 49 years in the United Kingdom
and Member of the Pianoforte Tuners' Association (London)
www.jphillipspianoservices.freeindex.co.uk : E-mail jophillips06@aol.com

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#1926641 - 07/14/12 10:28 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Loren D]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
Quote:
Surely resin (as used on such as violin bows) is something to increase friction, but not the same type of friction required for wrestpins.


Do you mean rosin?
_________________________
DiGiorgi Piano Service (1984-2013)
http://www.digiorgipiano.com

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#1926650 - 07/14/12 10:36 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Loren D]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7252
Loc: France
Yes, rosin, I have seen that mentioned on old issues of the PTG journal, (I could look for that in the collection I have) , as technicians dipping the tuning pin in varnish (some varnish may contain rosin)

Of course extra friction is really counter productive to smooth tuning, but I thought that in case of old ovalized block and pins that hardly show traces of their original thread, that could be useful, anyway easy to test a,nd I doubt the pin will be untuneable afterthat.

I tried rosin on the strike point (rubbed on a cloth then on the underside of wire ) and that was funny !
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#1926652 - 07/14/12 10:41 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Loren D]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
I think rosin is an ingredient in many pin tightening liquids.
_________________________
DiGiorgi Piano Service (1984-2013)
http://www.digiorgipiano.com

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#1926661 - 07/14/12 10:57 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Loren D]
Johnkie Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/04/11
Posts: 688
Loc: England
Rosin - Resin ... same thing, but often called Rosin when used by String players. wink
_________________________
Concert Tuner & Technician for the past 49 years in the United Kingdom
and Member of the Pianoforte Tuners' Association (London)
www.jphillipspianoservices.freeindex.co.uk : E-mail jophillips06@aol.com

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#1926886 - 07/15/12 12:05 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Olek]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1498
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Kamin
Yes, rosin, I have seen that mentioned on old issues of the PTG journal, (I could look for that in the collection I have) , as technicians dipping the tuning pin in varnish (some varnish may contain rosin)

Of course extra friction is really counter productive to smooth tuning, but I thought that in case of old ovalized block and pins that hardly show traces of their original thread, that could be useful, anyway easy to test a,nd I doubt the pin will be untuneable afterthat.


Dear techniсs, I unfortunately am unable to perform similar experiments (varnish, colophony, talc and chalk). I believe that Isaac right that the presence of these materials will help to and increase the friction necessary for us in the oval holes of the block. However, there is no clear technology reinstall a pin coated with a certain amount of a colophony . How impose into the hole of a block it?
Or to rub a colophony a pin?
If your hammering back in a pin so a colophony the is not evenly place in the hole of a block. That does not give us the desired effect of friction. If we shall turn a pin into a block, then the excess friction greatly can be damaged old holes.
Referring to his own practice, I can only note that the volume should be about 300 cubic. mm. (20mm * 50mm * 3mm *) on one pin. 300 cubic. mm is the amount of corrugated cardboard shim on one pin in re setting as I use
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#1927015 - 07/15/12 08:40 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Loren D]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2356
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Rosin and similar materials performing materials (chalk)that add friction should not be used in place of proper fitting pins on pianos. With violins and instruments using heavily tapered pegs, rosin helps keep the pegs in place, both lengthwise and rotationally. Not needed on proper fitting tuning pins.

Even the powdered dust residue from glues and epoxy in heavily laminated blocks (eg. delignat) can form a glaze between the pin and the wood and produce creepy/jumpy feel on it. If the drill is not properly cooled and the hole is not drilled with enough feed, too much glazing can occur. Properly cleaning out the hole afterwards with pressurized air and a swab is added insurance against preventing glazing. I believe this is also one the reasons the pins are driven in with hammer, not wound in...it prevents glazing from excess friction/heat.

I try and get the pins in with 3 or four hits with a heavy steel mallet using a proper fitting driver. Light tapping is not the way to go on pin installation IMHO.

Although pin dopes sometimes contain rosin, most contain(ed) glycerin as a humectant. It attracted and helped hold moisture into the wood to swell it. Outside of the ugly stains and attracted dirt found on doped blocks, I often find excessively rusted pins on these treated pianos because of that moisture being concentrated near the pin.

Max, you should eventually get yourself some reamers (set) or an adjustable reamer to properly deal with loose pins and oval pin holes. Servicing them this way by using larger pin replacements puts the feel on the pin back back to the closest condition it was when new. I will on occasion use CA glue on cheaper pianos or in cases where the pin size has reached the limit; its basically a last resort method before a piano reaches the end of its life, but nothing beats a carefully sized and prepped pin replacement in my opinion.


Edited by Emmery (07/15/12 08:48 AM)
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#1927024 - 07/15/12 09:34 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Emmery]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7252
Loc: France
Yes Emmery, chalk could even be better to protect against glaze, as powered Teflon used on the nap of knuckles avoid contamination from the graphite of the whippen and jack,

Sure the glaze is the worst problem, be it for an old typical block or for a Delignit (plus the glue heated when boring that cause those cracking pins on poorly drilled pinblocks)

I thought one of the reason slow pull raise the pin's friction is that because of the slow move in the hole, the fiber is oriented slowly, so when the pin is set by turning back the grip get better.

I find a video where I use different hammer techniques on a vertical, slow pull, tapping, and where I show the pin stiffness difference, that is (to me ) heard, when the hammer is gently pulled, some notes don't change, other do, the tone is also firmer and cleaner with a more deep pin setting...

The piano used for the demo is 30 years old and the pinning was very smooth and too light at that time. It is actually firm as if the piano was new, and I sure like to have an explanation on that.


hammer techniques on a vertical

please let me know if the sound is Ok, I believe I put the same video on Youtube :
http://youtu.be/Kw89pDlWcKE


Edited by Kamin (07/15/12 09:38 AM)
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#1927071 - 07/15/12 12:26 PM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Emmery]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1498
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Emmery
Rosin and similar materials performing materials (chalk)that add friction should not be used in place of proper fitting pins on pianos. With violins and instruments using heavily tapered pegs, rosin helps keep the pegs in place, both lengthwise and rotationally. Not needed on proper fitting tuning pins.

Even the powdered dust residue from glues and epoxy in heavily laminated blocks (eg. delignat) can form a glaze between the pin and the wood and produce creepy/jumpy feel on it. If the drill is not properly cooled and the hole is not drilled with enough feed, too much glazing can occur. Properly cleaning out the hole afterwards with pressurized air and a swab is added insurance against preventing glazing. I believe this is also one the reasons the pins are driven in with hammer, not wound in...it prevents glazing from excess friction/heat.

I try and get the pins in with 3 or four hits with a heavy steel mallet using a proper fitting driver. Light tapping is not the way to go on pin installation IMHO.

Although pin dopes sometimes contain rosin, most contain(ed) glycerin as a humectant. It attracted and helped hold moisture into the wood to swell it. Outside of the ugly stains and attracted dirt found on doped blocks, I often find excessively rusted pins on these treated pianos because of that moisture being concentrated near the pin.

Max, you should eventually get yourself some reamers (set) or an adjustable reamer to properly deal with loose pins and oval pin holes. Servicing them this way by using larger pin replacements puts the feel on the pin back back to the closest condition it was when new. I will on occasion use CA glue on cheaper pianos or in cases where the pin size has reached the limit; its basically a last resort method before a piano reaches the end of its life, but nothing beats a carefully sized and prepped pin replacement in my opinion.

Emmery, this is one of the best responses in this thread about a shim.
I found the answer a technician- practic here. I learned for myself a lot of new and a profit.
Especially informative for me, that "the need to beat with 3-4 strikes with a heavy hammer." Share your point of view, it is more painless for the block.
Thank you, so suggested about the inadmissibility of the use of colophony. As contained in its structure "as a humectant glycerin." I think it is really swollen pores of wood will collect moisture. As a result, rust metal base whole a pin.
Thanks again for your good wishes and advice on acquisitions in the future, special reamers for oval holes.
Sincerely, maxim_tuner
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#1927072 - 07/15/12 12:28 PM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Olek]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1498
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Kamin

I thought one of the reason slow pull raise the pin's friction is that because of the slow move in the hole, the fiber is oriented slowly, so when the pin is set by turning back the grip get better.

Perhaps this is so
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#1928051 - 07/17/12 11:40 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Johnkie]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1498
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Johnkie
Kamin:

I have never heard of resin being used with wrestpins. French chalk yes, but resin?

Surely resin (as used on such as violin bows) is something to increase friction, but not the same type of friction required for wrestpins.

Resin tends to be very sticky, and would cause immense problems with wrestpin setting ... you know the sort of thing where the smallest of movements become impossible because the pins are sticking so badly in the block, instead of being tight but "smoothly adjustable"

What I'm trying to say is that resin would be ideal in situations where two components need to be permanently fixed, but only counter-productive where fine adjustment is the paramount requirement.


Johnkie, if you will not be difficult to write a "French chalk" about. is it a talc? How it is used (in) with a wrestpins? Rub a pin "French chalk" before a hammering in a wrestplank?
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#1930546 - 07/22/12 05:31 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Loren D]
Alexandr Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/08/12
Posts: 11
Loc: USSR,Leningrad.
I just sprinkled the usual chalk a corrugated cardboard shim before installation. Tried it with only one pin. I'm tighten(turn) the pin that was no more difficult than without the chalk by Max's method when I became it's tune, it is very difficult to turn over into the pinblock and a pin a little squeak. After 2 days of pin has not loose but I did use the chalk will not, because what happens super friction. It's a pin very difficult to tuning.

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#1930550 - 07/22/12 06:14 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Loren D]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7252
Loc: France
"French chalk" is not really chalk it is a stone which contain calcium and clay.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marl
it may probably provide less friction.
Thank you for the witnessing.

Russian version :
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9C%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B3%D0%B5%D0%BB%D1%8C
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#1932088 - 07/25/12 12:49 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Olek]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1498
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Kamin
"French chalk" is not really chalk it is a stone which contain calcium and clay.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marl
it may probably provide less friction.

Isaac,I agree if we use any (chalk, rosin, French chalk, sandarac) or perhaps a mix based on them should be guided by the actual state of the friction between the pins and a pinblock. Perhaps the French chalk on the basis of alcohol would provide a mild state of screwing with a shim, if rub loose pin when reinstalling it's. It may be unnecessary to resort to using corrugated a shim. The main is to in the time reinstall the pin did not issued a squeak. And when tuner be tuning the piano a pin must moved smoothly without jerking into a pinblock
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#1932120 - 07/25/12 03:35 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Loren D]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7252
Loc: France
If the pin squeak (crack) you need better technique to tune, but you are sure that it will not move anymore. A good piano often cracks when the pitch is raised

Poor pin setting or lack of technique give the impression that the block does not hold well enough.

But it is possible to tune even with little holding of the pin. (I believe I did not use any shim for years)

What makes it difficult is when there is much friction under the string (grand pianos) and marks in the agrafes.
the part of string in front of the pin have to be tense the same than the pin and the same as the rest of the string, so if you cannot manipulate it smoothly tuning is difficult.
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Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#1932136 - 07/25/12 04:22 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Olek]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1498
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Kamin

Poor pin setting or lack of technique give the impression that the block does not hold well enough.

But it is possible to tune even with little holding of the pin. (I believe I did not use any shim for years)

Unfortunately, I have not a lot of practice with the grand piano. But, Isaac you have to be right when writes that as a result of proper technique work with pins, even irretrievably lost pin suddenly begins to to fix as good. I had to experience this feeling with a grand piano name "Красный Октябрь". Initially a few pins after a short time lost friction, but after a few my approaches to the Grand and a repeat it's tuning , a miracle! A pins began to to stand as need. I had deliberately inflated step, it's are dispensed before the desired the moment
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#1932219 - 07/25/12 12:59 PM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Loren D]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2356
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
I would like to add a bit of info to Max's post about the cardboard shims. In the mid 80's when I finished my technicians schooling, I travelled to central eastern Europe and spent some time in several (at that time communist ruled) countries gypsying around (and visiting relatives). I had my tuning lever and some minimal tools with me and tuned pianos wherever I went, just for the experience and exposure to European instruments. Toured many restoration and piano rebuilding businesses also.

Well I came across many pianos that had slips of plain paper used as shims to tighten up the grip on loose pins. I aquired the practice myself as it was ridiculously difficult to aquire any specialty items for the trade at the time. Long queue lines were normal at that time for even simple commodities.

Sometimes I seen shims of thicker material, like what postcards and shoe boxes were made from, other times a single piece of paper was folded in half to provide more grip. Interestingly, several of these pianos I visited a decade later and the fix was still working fine. Its not a short term fix, if done correctly.

Also, sometimes if one wishes to use a wood shim, they become brittle if they are as thin as paper. On a marginally loose pin that would become too tight with the thinnest wood shim, paper is a good solution. Cardboard on the other hand may work better than folded paper when the pins are very loose, as max has demonstrated.

Years later, working in tool and die, I found that paper was a perfect material to put between thin metal parts and the surface grinders magnetic table. Without it, the magnetic grip was not strong enough to secure the thin parts. The coefficient of friction is much higher between paper and metal than it is for metal on metal. This process is used all the time in the trade to solve this problem.


Edited by Emmery (07/25/12 01:06 PM)
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#1932473 - 07/25/12 11:59 PM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Emmery]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1498
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Emmery
I would like to add a bit of info to Max's post about the cardboard shims. In the mid 80's when I finished my technicians schooling, I travelled to central eastern Europe and spent some time in several (at that time communist ruled) countries gypsying around (and visiting relatives). I had my tuning lever and some minimal tools with me and tuned pianos wherever I went, just for the experience and exposure to European instruments. Toured many restoration and piano rebuilding businesses also.

Well I came across many pianos that had slips of plain paper used as shims to tighten up the grip on loose pins. I aquired the practice myself as it was ridiculously difficult to aquire any specialty items for the trade at the time. Long queue lines were normal at that time for even simple commodities.

Sometimes I seen shims of thicker material, like what postcards and shoe boxes were made from, other times a single piece of paper was folded in half to provide more grip. Interestingly, several of these pianos I visited a decade later and the fix was still working fine. Its not a short term fix, if done correctly.

Also, sometimes if one wishes to use a wood shim, they become brittle if they are as thin as paper. On a marginally loose pin that would become too tight with the thinnest wood shim, paper is a good solution. Cardboard on the other hand may work better than folded paper when the pins are very loose, as max has demonstrated.

Years later, working in tool and die, I found that paper was a perfect material to put between thin metal parts and the surface grinders magnetic table. Without it, the magnetic grip was not strong enough to secure the thin parts. The coefficient of friction is much higher between paper and metal than it is for metal on metal. This process is used all the time in the trade to solve this problem.

Dear Emmery, a tears roll down my cheeks. But it's tears caused by a feeling of joy, corrugated cardboard shim is not Max's focus of, but the real thing. It's capable of effectively strengthen (tighten up) loose piano's pin. Emmery, thank you for those good words. What you have written is YOUR theoretic, a practice way"
Regards from Max
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A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#1932519 - 07/26/12 04:03 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Loren D]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7252
Loc: France
Thanks Emmery for witnessing your experience, Yes I was surprised to have a good feel under the lever, with the cardboard, but once the pin is took of only dust is left in the hole. I had no opportunity to make more testing, but it is intended with next strings change

So it is widely used in East Europe. Interesting that different thickness/material face different situations.
Sure wood shims get crushed in the block

for lower tensions harpsichord and forte pianas I

know that brass shims are doing the job better than wood shims, for what have been told me.
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Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#1932561 - 07/26/12 08:31 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Olek]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1498
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Kamin
Thanks Emmery for witnessing your experience, Yes I was surprised to have a good feel under the lever, with the cardboard, but once the pin is took of only dust is left in the hole. I had no opportunity to make more testing, but it is intended with next strings change

So it is widely used in East Europe. Interesting that different thickness/material face different situations.

Isaac,the thickness of corrugated cardboard shim depends , as you rightly have noticed depletion of the holes in the pinblock. I can not advise to use in all cases, 3 mm corrugated cardboard. Perhaps in some cases, this thickness is 1.5 mm, if the pin is not completely loose a friction . Required thickness shim must determine myself technic,which it's to set
I have written repeatedly before, that the dust that you found in the hole's of pinblock is inevitable. While as we turn a pin into a pinblock a shim is partially destroyed and cellulose dust remains in the hole. Much of this dust, pressurized hot a pin penetrates into the cracks of a pinblock to filling it. Therefore, this cracks can be roughly considered as recieved repaired and been sanded. Undisturbed a part of the shim works as a classical shim for wedging.
If I understand you, then you have already conducted tests with a cardboard shim. Isaac, when you repeat this operation in a future please describe how it was.
Regards, Max
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A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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