Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum I had an interesting tuning today

I got to tune the Baldwin SF7 belonging to the Ted Geisel Director of Outreach at the San Diego Opera today, who happens to be a PhD in music and amazing pianist.

He had a different tuner come out and tune as a favor to an acquaintance of sorts, and wasn't happy with it. Had the guy come out again, and it came out worse. When he brought it up with the tuner, the tuner claimed the piano needed to be restrung, and that the pins weren't stable. So, he called me for a second opinion, and to possibly tune it if I thought I could make it better.

I was a little apprehensive, because this guy is *really* discriminating in his taste for sound, and at the same time excited to get the chance to possibly impress him with my work(he, in turn, was a little apprehensive about calling me because we're friends).

When I got there, I had him show me what was bothering him about it. He immediately played a big D major chord, and it sounded pretty sour. He said that, depending on what he played, and if there were chromatic modulations involved, certain keys, primarily D, were off and driving him crazy to the point of not practicing. That led me to believe that he was possibly used to a certain temperament, so I then asked him if he had a preference for any particular temperament. He shrugged and indicated that he wasn't aware there were different ones to choose from. I then explained to him that there were growing, differing schools of though, and how Victorian temperaments were being resurrected, albeit in perhaps modified form, in order to bring more life out of the sound. He asked, "What? Like Werckmeister III?" I replied that yes, as a matter of fact, like that. I then explained a little bit of how EBVT's work. His response to that: "No thanks. The job of bringing more sound out of the piano is the pianist's, not the tuner's."

And with that, I went to work.

I gave it my standard SGET tuning. While the pins were inconsistent and some of them jumped, they were all tight enough and stable enough. The piano didn't need restringing at all.

When I was done, he sat down and played a variety of pieces to check different keys and types of sounds, and was thrilled.

I'm not expressing an opinion one way or the other, just relaying my experience with someone who is considered something of a scholar in these parts.

Congrats on a job well done! I've followed behind some tuners before also and I know what you mean about being apprehensive. You really want to know what happened. Are they just incompetent, is there indeed something wrong with piano or is the pianist really really picky? I've had people tell me that the last tuner thought the piano only had a couple more tunings in it and it tuned up fine for me. Ya just don't know what to think other than being thankful for the business.

Thanks!

Oh yeah, about the tuning. I went through and listened to intervals, primarily 5th's, for consistency. Chromatically, it was all over the map. It did turn out to be a pattern of sorts: Almost all of the WHITE keys were on pitch or maybe as much as 2 cents under(I checked with Cleartune set on ET), and almost all of the BLACK keys were 4-6 cents sharp. Little or no variance throughout the scale.

Congratulations Jim!!

It does amaze me sometimes just how incompetent some tuners are, and just blame it on the piano!!! Although I by no means consider myself an expert, I try to do a really good job for my customers. I really have a passion for pianos and the pay is just kind of a side benefit. I guess it would be different if I were trying to make a living from it. I get outraged at some of the stories I hear about technicians and what they have to customers pianos. One in particular, has taken me a couple of years to "undo" what this previous "tech" had done. I've resurrected several pianos that other techs said were not worth saving. One in particular was a 1935 Baldwin Grand in spectacular condition, just need some back checks adjusted and some hammers alinged. It plays so beautifully now and in the center piece of a restaurant located in what was a girls Catholic school back in the day. The owner has even held what he calls "Piano Wars" in which he invites three pianists to battle it out in several different genres and then the crowd, votes for the winner. Its has become a very popular event an usually sells out. All of which takes place on the Baldwin Grand that was destined for the dumpster. So many techs in my area just want to tune an not repair. I guess that's why their customers have started coming to me. Recently another piano that was originally located at the girls school has come back home. Someone donated it back to them. I'll start working on her next week. Needs new keytops, missing a hammer and the frame has come unglued. But I will put in the time an get her up and going again. I find such pleasure in bringing these old pianos back.

I'm right there with you, Ryan. Hence the name of my business...

BTW, my friend has two pianos in his house; the SF7, and a 1913 M&H AA art case that's in phenomenal original condition. My friend feels it's probably due for a restringing/rebuilding, and had asked this other guy to give him an estimate. The other guy never got around to it.

Is he any relation to Dr. Seuss, Theodore Geisel?

The position is named for him Geisel endowed it. His name is Dr. Nicolas Reveles.

I'm afraid that you may be one of the very few (without coming out and saying it) that may have experienced following a tuner that tuned in Reverse Well. Hardly anyone on this forum can believe that it happens but I usually find it from a few to several times a week.

You did well to tune the piano in ET. I had to do one yesterday too. The piano had just been delivered from the dealer who always has the pianos tuned in a non-equal temperament much stronger than mine. The husband was at home instead of the wife who is a string player. He reported that she said the piano sounded out of tune. Unisons and octaves were good but the thirds among many of the black keys were much wider (beating much faster) than I know many people can tolerate them.

I told the husband that the piano didn't sound out of tune to me but that the key tonalities were uneven. I said that the dealer always had his pianos tuned that way deliberately because he found that most of his customers preferred it. Some people, however do not, so I had a solution. He was able t hear the unevennes when I pointed it out. I re-arranged the temperament by ear to the ET via Marpurg and showed the husband afterwards how I had made all tonalities now sound "even". He could hear that too and thanked me.

Opera Tenor, since you are among the very few who seem to have actually stumbled upon a Reverse Well temperament, I suggest you try the following each time you encounter a piano which has been tuned by someone else the last time: Play the Major thirds chromatically just as they are on the piano when you come to it. If you hear a definite uneven pattern and the white key thirds are faster than the black key thirds and particularly, if the C4-E4 M3 is faster than all the rest, much faster than the B3-D#4 and C#4-F4 that surround it, you have found a piano tuned in Reverse Well!

My guess is that you'll find it 9 times out of 10 if the previous tuner had been an aural tuner. It's not a regional thing. I have found it virtually everywhere I've gone, from NYC to LA, from Montreal to Mexico City and everywhere in between. The last time I went to Los Angeles and went to church in the South Bay area with my niece to hear her sing in the choir, there it was! It was a nice, large Kawai grand with all of the white key tonalities screaming fast and all of the black key tonalities slow and gentle. Of course, most, if not all that the choir sang in were the simple keys, so the key color for virtually everything they sang was inappropriate.

It happens all the time, anywhere and everywhere and people obviously accept it. So, it stands to reason that if they do, they would also accept a true Well Temperament most of the time too. My guess is that the person you tuned for would have found my temperament to be just fine because the key tonalities are correct according to tradition. It was only a label placed on it that scared him. Who wants a "Workmister", "ColonelBurger", a "PetrolErrand", a "NeedleHeart" or much less, a MEAN-TONE, when all they really know about is a nice, EQUAL (Ah, doesn't that sound like what we all want?) temperament?

Bill,

Thank you for the suggestions. I'll do just that.

As a matter of fact, this piano is played with a lot of string players, quite frequently. And, as another matter of fact, the previous tuner was aural(as was I - I just checked the pitches by machine to get accurate numbers for what I was hearing).

This is interesting to hear, because I've been meaning to ask what is meant by Reverse Well. From the diagram Ron posted in the other thread, it looked to me like everything was backwards/upside-down, tonally(I guess that's where the term comes from...).

As for my discussion of alternate temperaments with my friend, he did say while he really didn't want something like that on a piano, he could see tuning a harp(for instance) to one of them. Next time I talk to him about it, I'll mention that EBVT III should sound consistent tonally and see how he reacts. Not afraid, just very clear in what he expects.

He (and I) could definitely hear a consistency [bordering on sterility] through all keys from my tuning, and that was precisely what he wanted.

I followed another "tuner" a while back. The customer told me "He only tuned from here (c2) to here (a5). When I asked him about it, he said that is all he ever tunes since that is the only place people play."

He was a "tuner" for at least 25 years that I know of. I got a lot of busineess from his customers. He SAYS he is still tuning. . .at least 2 pianos each quarter!