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#254825 - 09/10/03 02:44 PM Re: Grand vs. Upright
Del Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 5295
Loc: Olympia, Washington
 Quote:
Originally posted by Mike Parke:
Del,
Excuse my total ignorance of the field, but have you tried some of the emerging (re-emerging?) companies from central Europe such as Estonia? Or maybe from Poland or the Czech Republic? At best they have a desire for quality combined with low (relative to other countries) labor costs. If Estonia (just for example) can produce a quality 6' 3" piano for $20-25K and a 5' 8" for $15-20K, then shouldn't they be able to produce a VSG for somewhat less (I'm not too sure of their prices)? Maybe low enough to compete in the VSG market?

Even here, there could be some premium for sounding better - especially if supply is somewhat limited. There is a niche of VSG buyers who do care about sound (although I don't have a clue how big this niche might be). I personally know one VSG buyer who's a casual player - but did make their final purchase decision on sound rather than best price. [/b]
Without naming names, yes, I have talked to several pianomakers about the subject. Some express the opinion that they are already producing excellent small pianos. Most have simply not been interested.

Yes, I do think there is a market for pianos of this type. Small, to be sure, but I think it's there.

Del
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Stupidity is a rare condition, ignorance is a common choice. --Anon

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#254826 - 09/10/03 02:51 PM Re: Grand vs. Upright
Del Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 5295
Loc: Olympia, Washington
 Quote:
Originally posted by Manitou:
Del,

Thanks for your insights, nice to have more knowledge around here. I believe we have met, at least once, in the midst of Mr. Sauter, Mr. Finger & Mr. Able (couple years ago) in any case,

I am aware of you and your bothers' achievments and vision but I do have one question.

Now that you have spent so much time, science and energy working the upright into a grand equivalent, how much closer do the respective prices fall now?

Manitou - Pianist - Technician [/b]
I'm not sure I quite understand the question. Piano manufacturing costs are more directly related to production quantities than to performance levels. But I would guess that, given roughly equal scale sizes and performance levels, the vertical will always be somewhat less costly to produce in the same quantities. Darrell's action was not inexpensive to assemble and install and that pushes up the cost of the vertical. But straight sides are always cheaper to make and finish than bent sides.

Del
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Delwin D Fandrich
Piano Research, Design & Manufacturing Consultant
ddfandrich@gmail.com
(To contact me privately please use this e-mail address.)

Stupidity is a rare condition, ignorance is a common choice. --Anon

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#254827 - 09/10/03 03:27 PM Re: Grand vs. Upright
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14138
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Estonia produces already a highly regarded, musically very appealing 5'6 grand which doesn't exactly fall into the categories of "VSG"

If nothing else, it certainly has become recognized for its highly 'effient' musical output - PARTICULARLY considering its "size"!

And has found its way into some of the finest pianists' homes - BECAUSE of it!

Other European makers,especially the old German makers such as Sauter etc, also often produce an astoundingly full sound in their smaller grands.

Because they're long used to have to watch their step there.

And don't simply know that the European theatre is often more 'serious' in the acquisition of musical instruments based on age old tradition of music there.

But are also keenly aware that 'brother competition' is for ever on the look out for the possibly "the weakest link" in the other guys' instrumental line-up:

"PFUI - WAS FUER SCHEISSE....[/b]" \:D \:D

Subsequently few grands are manufactured there to simply please the modern living room baby-grand appeal of North America - nor would it be in their interest to make VSGs that would have to compete with their own [excellent] uprights!

After all, most of these makers are smart enough to avoid embarrassing themselves on their continents' showrooms there by displaying a grand that wouldn't be at least a notch above their own best UPRIGHTS!

And you don't play with your age old reputation for excellence by placing right besides one of your own monster-uprights a "Baby-grand" made for.......

..... "Babies"!![/b]

norbert
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#254828 - 09/10/03 04:11 PM Re: Grand vs. Upright
cht Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/05/03
Posts: 118
Loc: Coeur d'Alene, ID
Ok, you have the opinion from Aussie Land, now Idaho gets to weigh in.

I started playing (read that learning) about 6 years ago. I bought a Yamaha C2 grand for about
$16,000 (new). I had it for 3 years, sold it for about what I paid for it, and bought a used Kawai upright for $3,000, which I still have. The Yamaha had a better sound and feel, hands down, no argument, but you don't really need a Hummer to get the groceries in, either. For the money, the Kawai works just fine and produces a sound that is still better than my ability to hit the right keys. Grands sound better, but unless you can play well enough and can really afford the difference in price, a good upright is, to me, a good choice.
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cht

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#1868053 - 03/25/12 04:07 AM Re: Grand vs. Upright [Re: AkKr]
Ovidiu M Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/24/10
Posts: 196
Loc: Romania
Ressurecting old thread because of just playing a big old upright. Leaving aside all the inherent differences between upright/grand, does anybody feels like me, more intimate with an upright because of the way the sound projects? I feel that with the upright the sound is more focused, like a beam, towards the player,and, thus the more connection feeling. The grand has indeed big expansive sound but its kind of everybody's sound not just yours . Am i makeing sense here?


Edited by Ovidiu M (03/25/12 04:09 AM)

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#1868164 - 03/25/12 11:20 AM Re: Grand vs. Upright [Re: cht]
jivemutha Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/05/06
Posts: 528
Loc: Portland, OR
Originally Posted By: cht
Ok, you have the opinion from Aussie Land, now Idaho gets to weigh in.

I started playing (read that learning) about 6 years ago. I bought a Yamaha C2 grand for about
$16,000 (new). I had it for 3 years, sold it for about what I paid for it, and bought a used Kawai upright for $3,000, which I still have. The Yamaha had a better sound and feel, hands down, no argument, but you don't really need a Hummer to get the groceries in, either. For the money, the Kawai works just fine and produces a sound that is still better than my ability to hit the right keys. Grands sound better, but unless you can play well enough and can really afford the difference in price, a good upright is, to me, a good choice.


Absolutely--I agree. And I'm saying that as someone who has a C2 and is happy with it. I think it's easy to lose sight of the fact that it's mostly the music that counts--not as much the instrument.

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#1868166 - 03/25/12 11:23 AM Re: Grand vs. Upright [Re: Ovidiu M]
jivemutha Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/05/06
Posts: 528
Loc: Portland, OR
Originally Posted By: Ovidiu M
Ressurecting old thread because of just playing a big old upright. Leaving aside all the inherent differences between upright/grand, does anybody feels like me, more intimate with an upright because of the way the sound projects? I feel that with the upright the sound is more focused, like a beam, towards the player,and, thus the more connection feeling. The grand has indeed big expansive sound but its kind of everybody's sound not just yours . Am i makeing sense here?


It makes no difference whether it makes sense to others. If that's what you hear, that's all that's important. If so, you've just potentially saved yourself a ton of money.

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#1868375 - 03/25/12 06:36 PM Re: Grand vs. Upright [Re: Del]
OldFingers Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/14/06
Posts: 545
Loc: Boston, MA
Originally Posted By: Del
To make the VSG sound its best a small amount of power will be sacrificed. The loss will be slight and it will be less a musical problem than a sales problem. In most piano showrooms the VSG is displayed out in the middle of the same gargantuan space that also swallows up the concert grand. Couple this with the all-to-frequent piano salesfolks who know of no other way to present a piano beyond banging really hard on the keys and loudly proclaiming the wonders of great clangorous power. It may also be a problem to the musician who has been taught to ignore his or her ears and attack the keys with a ferocity that would have destroyed any piano of Chopin�s day. As all may be, we�ll show them all and make up for the slight power loss by giving the piano a wonderful dynamic range.

Del

The sacrifice of a small amount of power would be welcome to my ears, especially if the loss were accompanied by a "wonderful dynamic range". In an attempt to get my 6' 2" grand to a comfortable listening level with room treatments, padded string blanket and the like, I have just about killed its dynamic range. I'd like to replace my piano with the one that Del describes, but sadly it seems to exist only on his drawing board. I wonder if there are uprights that are less loud while maintaining a meaningful dynamic range? I've not tried many uprights, but those I have played have had a "boxy" sound to me (that's "boxy" as in a sound inside a box).
_________________________
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#1889479 - 05/01/12 03:38 PM Re: Grand vs. Upright [Re: starmender]
lisztchopin Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/21/12
Posts: 16
Loc: UK
I disagree look at paul barton on youtube playing ona yamaha upright, i am not saying this becuase i have an upright i have a grand too so its not personal

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#1889495 - 05/01/12 04:00 PM Re: Grand vs. Upright [Re: AkKr]
Diane... Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/16/06
Posts: 3450
Loc: Western Canada
Well, I'm going to sound like a "broken record" but here's my take!

When I play even the best upright, I face a wall, BORING!!!
But when I play a grand, it's like "driving a convertible" in doors! Fun fun fun!

If you can afford it, get a grand! Even a baby grand.

Just my take. Think I've posted this same thing 10 other times, or more.

Not to mention that if you buy a "black" grand of any size, it's EASY . . . to sell, but generally, once a convertible is in the family, it gets passed on in the family! Uprights are a dime a dozen! Even good ons. But there's something "grand" about a GRAND piano!

Hope you join the "convertible" players in the crowd.

I think you know my answer to this one by now! Have a GRAND time shopping! (pun intended) !!!!
_________________________
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Diane
Jazz/Blues/Rock/Boogie Piano Teacher


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#1889676 - 05/01/12 10:57 PM Re: Grand vs. Upright [Re: AkKr]
gutenberg Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/05/07
Posts: 380
Loc: Wichita, Kansas
yea, a grand is grand alright, but some of us are too busy looking at the music to notice the wall.

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#1889848 - 05/02/12 08:07 AM Re: Grand vs. Upright [Re: AkKr]
Rickster Online   content


Registered: 03/25/06
Posts: 8534
Loc: Georgia, USA
I have a grand and two uprights (and a digital smile ). I love the grand best of all… but I like the uprights too. The uprights sound good and play nicely (though not as good as the grand) and are pleasant to look at.

If you can afford a grand and have room for a grand I highly recommend a grand/baby grand piano. If you do not have room for a grand, a nice upright is still a wonderful musical instrument.

Just my .02…

Rick
_________________________
Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel

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#1889877 - 05/02/12 09:11 AM Re: Grand vs. Upright [Re: AkKr]
Greg88 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/25/09
Posts: 85
Loc: Ludlow, Kentucky
When this thread was first started the trend was to really hate on small grands. This may have been in part due to the comments in the Larry Fine book which seems to
have become (deservedly) a popular piano bible. Lately, the idea is that the small grand has improved and makers are doing a better job with them. I got my small grand in the days before the Piano Book and it never occured to me to think of it as an inferior or faulty instrument. I knew it didn't sound the same as a larger grand. Why should I expect that it would? It's small. I never thought of the sound as bad. Was it inferior because it didn't have a duplex scale, slow close fallboard etc.? I didn't know my piano was inferior until I read it in a book and by then it was too late because I loved it. In fact, many of the grands I have played over the years in restraunts, churches, lounges and homes have been of the under 5 foot variety. I always prefered them over any vertical piano. It may be simply a matter of taste. I don't buy into the suggestion that they should not be purchased. I've played so many of them that were very decent and pianists have been buying them for years and been satisfied with them. I should think any average piano player would love one. If you are going on (or practicing for) a concert stage that would be a different matter entirely.
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Schumann Grand by Samick (1990)
Howard Grand by Baldwin (1941)
Yamaha Clavanova Digital

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#1890037 - 05/02/12 03:35 PM Re: Grand vs. Upright [Re: AkKr]
Swarth Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/28/11
Posts: 366
Loc: SF Bay Area Ca.
I owned an upright most of my life and then last year I purchased a grand piano. I have improved in my playing more in the last year than the last 10 years. Surmise the reasons for yourself, but for some reason just sitting down at the grand inspries me to be better.
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Quid est veritas?

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#1890100 - 05/02/12 06:37 PM Re: Grand vs. Upright [Re: Swarth]
Sparky McBiff Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/10
Posts: 1112
Loc: Toronto, Ontario
Originally Posted By: Swarth
I owned an upright most of my life and then last year I purchased a grand piano. I have improved in my playing more in the last year than the last 10 years. Surmise the reasons for yourself, but for some reason just sitting down at the grand inspries me to be better.


Ah, so it's not just me then.

I agree completely.
I take my piano playing much more seriously since I moved up to a grand.
_________________________
Hailun 198







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#1890301 - 05/03/12 05:16 AM Re: Grand vs. Upright [Re: Sparky McBiff]
RedKat Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/14/10
Posts: 173
Loc: Belgium
Originally Posted By: Sparky McBiff

I take my piano playing much more seriously since I moved up to a grand.

Well... You need to justify the investment grin
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#1890433 - 05/03/12 11:31 AM Re: Grand vs. Upright [Re: AkKr]
John Pels Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 1260
Loc: Tomball, Texas
I think I have commented on this topic every year that I've been here at PW. I tend to agree with most contributors that in the main the grand tends to inspire you to make better music, and the in fact size matters. With a piano with longer strings and that fabulous sustain and timbre found in large pianos, you tend to experiment more with time and decay. You just tend to relax more and enjoy hearing music and making music. I have been practicing the A flat polonaise of late to play at my students yearly recital, and there is no doubt whatsoever that this piece handily exploits the instrument which is a Knabe concert grand.

That said, I logged a lot of practice hours in college playing Steinway uprights in practice rooms. From that I learned one thing...uprights are fine for learning the notes, but that's where it ends for me. At that point I was looking for a practice room with a grand, preferably a large one. After graduating I NEVER pondered an upright for any reason. I bought a small grand in grad school for woodshedding at the apartment and eventually traded up for the concert grand and have never looked back. I know of no one that I went to school with, and we all got masters in performance that bought uprights. As far as that goes, none of our profs had uprights. Steinway B's and concert grands were popular with them as well.

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#1927213 - 07/15/12 06:26 PM Re: Grand vs. Upright [Re: AkKr]
pianoguy4590 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/14/12
Posts: 8
Loc: California
Here is what I say ( this is an article from my website comparing grands to uprights) Now one of the most common questions you ask when buying a piano is should I get an upright or a baby grand.
If you do your research, you will find out that uprights have a bigger soundboard and that uprights are cheaper and take up less space. I have a bias towards the baby grand.
There are only two great reasons to buy an upright, limited space, and a small budget. There are many more reasons to buy a baby grand. For one, baby grands have a sonic benefit over uprights. Uprights, looking ugly from the back, are almost placed against a wall. The sound comes out from the back so where is all that sound going? All that sound goes into the wall. In a grand piano, the sound comes out from the bottom, and the top. All the sound is projected into the room not into a wall.
Baby grands are often much easier to place than uprights. You might be saying "What "or "But uprights take up less space.” The fact is uprights take up a certain amount of wall space. In my house there is a painting of decoration on almost ever wall in the house. So an upright would be hard to place. Also, due to the fact they take up wall space, you have to have a 49 inch wall that is empty in you house. Grands or baby grands can fit into corners, parts where there is not straight wall. Anywhere. Still thinking of buying an upright? Ok then, I have to tell you that uprights are ugly, in my eye. The look bulk and very heavy, while grands or baby grands do not.
The next reason is very important. It has to do with pedals. On upright and grand pianos, the damper pedal does its job. Raising the dampers allowing the strings to vibrate. When you press the soft pedal on a grand piano, it does different things compared to when you press the soft pedal on an upright. The pedals true name is the "una corda pedal" which means one string in Italian. When you press the una corda on a grand, it moves the whole action, so that instead of the hammers striking three strings, the hammers strike two strings and the third one gently. This gives a change of tonal color. On uprights the soft pedal moves hammers closer to the strings to make it hard to play loudly.

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#1927278 - 07/15/12 09:54 PM Re: Grand vs. Upright [Re: RedKat]
Sparky McBiff Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/10
Posts: 1112
Loc: Toronto, Ontario
Originally Posted By: RedKat
Originally Posted By: Sparky McBiff

I take my piano playing much more seriously since I moved up to a grand.

Well... You need to justify the investment grin


Well I know how that could be possible but it is not at all the case with me.

I don't need to justify anything really.
(No wife or kids and definitely NO "guilt" about spending the money at all).

It looks absolutely amazing and it sounds absolutely amazing which makes it much more fun to play and simply makes me enjoy it much more.

That's all I really mean by "taking it more seriously".
_________________________
Hailun 198







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#1927342 - 07/16/12 03:04 AM Re: Grand vs. Upright [Re: pianoguy4590]
AJF Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/18/06
Posts: 1620
Loc: Toronto
Originally Posted By: pianoguy4590
Here is what I say ( this is an article from my website comparing grands to uprights) Now one of the most common questions you ask when buying a piano is should I get an upright or a baby grand.
If you do your research, you will find out that uprights have a bigger soundboard and that uprights are cheaper and take up less space. I have a bias towards the baby grand.
There are only two great reasons to buy an upright, limited space, and a small budget. There are many more reasons to buy a baby grand. For one, baby grands have a sonic benefit over uprights. Uprights, looking ugly from the back, are almost placed against a wall. The sound comes out from the back so where is all that sound going? All that sound goes into the wall. In a grand piano, the sound comes out from the bottom, and the top. All the sound is projected into the room not into a wall.
Baby grands are often much easier to place than uprights. You might be saying "What "or "But uprights take up less space.” The fact is uprights take up a certain amount of wall space. In my house there is a painting of decoration on almost ever wall in the house. So an upright would be hard to place. Also, due to the fact they take up wall space, you have to have a 49 inch wall that is empty in you house. Grands or baby grands can fit into corners, parts where there is not straight wall. Anywhere. Still thinking of buying an upright? Ok then, I have to tell you that uprights are ugly, in my eye. The look bulk and very heavy, while grands or baby grands do not.
The next reason is very important. It has to do with pedals. On upright and grand pianos, the damper pedal does its job. Raising the dampers allowing the strings to vibrate. When you press the soft pedal on a grand piano, it does different things compared to when you press the soft pedal on an upright. The pedals true name is the "una corda pedal" which means one string in Italian. When you press the una corda on a grand, it moves the whole action, so that instead of the hammers striking three strings, the hammers strike two strings and the third one gently. This gives a change of tonal color. On uprights the soft pedal moves hammers closer to the strings to make it hard to play loudly.


There are a lot of generalizations going on here. There are too many factors involved in the individual designs of various uprights and grands to make these generalizations.

Your comments might apply to an upright and a grand by the same maker (although that's even stretching it considering many companies make various lines according to price point) but when considering uprights versus grands from various makers your comments seem a little 'basic'.

I'm not attacking your comments, I'm just scrutinizing them considering you opened your post by informing us that you are quoting an "article" from your website. From what I've read, I'm not sure your energy is best spent writing articles comparing uprights and grands IMO...

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#1989260 - 11/21/12 07:55 AM Re: Grand vs. Upright [Re: AkKr]
lisztchopin Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/21/12
Posts: 16
Loc: UK
All the comment here about technique etc improving vastly on a grand as opposed to an upright just don't wash look on YT at some playing on uprights with tremendous technique far better than some of the commenteers i don't doubt

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#1989586 - 11/21/12 09:43 PM Re: Grand vs. Upright [Re: AkKr]
dsch Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/17/08
Posts: 325
Loc: florida
I went from a very fine Steinway L to a Kawai K3 (and ten piano-less years in between).

Every single day, every single time I sit down at my Kawai, my heart aches for a good grand.

Everything is more difficult on my K3.

It beats the heck out of no piano at all (and a lot of icky grands that I've seen--unfortunately I've seen a lot of ick factor lately) but I long for something better.

I can afford something better now (finally) but I'm still looking for that deal that I have chemistry with. I am reluctant to part with my K3, which is perfectly utile but not much more than that, until I find it.

I don't think anyone who can afford a decent grand should settle for an upright unless there is absolutely no other choice.

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