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#1927454 - 07/16/12 10:37 AM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: Kbeaumont]
bfb Offline
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Registered: 05/25/11
Posts: 531
Loc: Atlanta GA USA
To Mike,

Dewster's comment about "the flurry of notes" is right on the money. The virtuosity of the pianist notwithstanding, the playing tends to mask the listeners ability to really hear what the piano produces. I realize it was an impromptu recording, and we all appreciate the opportunity to view it. So I thank you for providing it.

I didn't see any audio demos on the casio product website...Unless i missed finding them, and if so getting to them wasn't intuitive. Kind of surprised you would launch without that? Seems like a chance to solidify the buzz? Any demo work you can supply is greatly appreciated.

I am very excited about this launch. Casio's travel well and are a whole lot cheaper than a Nord. If it has decent action and a pleasant, non-confrontational acoustic piano sound, it could be a low cost performance option for a lot of people, and might let me retire my Yamaha P-250 armored piano.


Edited by bfb (07/16/12 10:38 AM)
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#1927458 - 07/16/12 10:44 AM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: bfb]
EssBrace Online   content
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Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2327
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
Originally Posted By: bfb
I am very excited about this launch. Casio's travel well and are a whole lot cheaper than a Nord. If it has decent action and a pleasant, non-confrontational acoustic piano sound, it could be a low cost performance option for a lot of people


+1
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#1927473 - 07/16/12 11:13 AM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: bfb]
Mike_Martin Offline
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Registered: 07/21/09
Posts: 381
Originally Posted By: bfb

I didn't see any audio demos on the casio product website...Unless i missed finding them, and if so getting to them wasn't intuitive. Kind of surprised you would launch without that? Seems like a chance to solidify the buzz? Any demo work you can supply is greatly appreciated.


I was able to play these new models for the first time one week before NAMM in Tokyo Japan, we then shipped those prototypes directly to NAMM. We don't have audio demos up because the pianos (including the piano sounds) are not entirely finished. We will get some audio demos up soon, but I'm hesitant to post too many right away because it will change (for the better). Some of the nuance details that AiR can provide like the damper resonance are still being tweaked. smile
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#1927516 - 07/16/12 12:15 PM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: Mike_Martin]
voxpops Offline
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Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 2918
Loc: Oregon
Originally Posted By: Mike_Martin
...the pianos (including the piano sounds) are not entirely finished. We will get some audio demos up soon, but I'm hesitant to post too many right away because it will change (for the better).

This is actually good news. It means there's a chance that the engineers can really hone the sounds to avoid the type of criticisms leveled at the previous generation - if there's enough latitude/memory available. I think it's very sensible to wait before posting demos that many will use to make initial, and possibly irrevocable, judgments.

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#1927611 - 07/16/12 04:27 PM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: Kbeaumont]
galaxy4t Offline
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Registered: 08/28/08
Posts: 846
Loc: Lakewood, CA
Mike,
Can you comment on what will happen to the PX3 with all the revisions to the other Privias? I would imagine it would be due to be revised along with all the other privias.

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#1927619 - 07/16/12 04:37 PM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: galaxy4t]
KLSinCT Offline
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Registered: 02/07/12
Posts: 148
Loc: Stonington, CT USA
Originally Posted By: galaxy4t
Mike,
Can you comment on what will happen to the PX3 with all the revisions to the other Privias? I would imagine it would be due to be revised along with all the other privias.


I'd like to know when the Celviano line will be updated like the new Privias.....perhaps in time for NAMM 2013?

K.
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#1927655 - 07/16/12 05:30 PM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: Kbeaumont]
Mike_Martin Offline
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Registered: 07/21/09
Posts: 381
Sorry guys, I can't comment on future products although a PX-3 replacement is high on my wish list. Also keep in mind the PX-3 released almost a year after the PX-330.
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Casio America

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#1927661 - 07/16/12 05:44 PM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: Mike_Martin]
anotherscott Offline
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Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3076
Originally Posted By: Mike_Martin
Sorry guys, I can't comment on future products although a PX-3 replacement is high on my wish list. Also keep in mind the PX-3 released almost a year after the PX-330.

When it's time, I hope they get away from the thin black buttons on a black background. Not stage friendly.

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#1927672 - 07/16/12 06:05 PM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: anotherscott]
voxpops Offline
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Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 2918
Loc: Oregon
Originally Posted By: anotherscott
When it's time, I hope they get away from the thin black buttons on a black background. Not stage friendly.

+1

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#1927673 - 07/16/12 06:05 PM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: Kbeaumont]
Stevesie Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/23/12
Posts: 45
Mike, if you are tweaking sounds still, the attack on the piano sounds too, um, attacky? Maybe it's just too bright. Anywho, thanks for being on the forums and making affordable pianos!

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#1927886 - 07/17/12 04:52 AM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: anotherscott]
dewster Offline
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Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4271
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: anotherscott
So the 850 is the only model with sympathetic string resonance? It seems a shame that it's not in any compact/portable model (i.e. the 350).

Over on the PX-150 page:

http://www.casio.com/products/Digital_Pianos_%26_Keyboards/Privia_Digital_Pianos/PX-150WE/

I see: "For further realism a new Damper Resonance simulator provides the rich sound of the strings when the sustain pedal is used."

I get a little lost when it comes to what all these things labeled "resonance" mean ("damper resonance" seems like a contradiction in terms since dampers are there to quash resonance, and "string resonance" is so general it's kind of meaningless) but in this instance I think they mean pedal sympathetic resonance, which would be a very good thing to see improved in the Casio line.

Or by "sympathetic string resonance" were you (anotherscott) talking about key sympathetic resonance (a much more subtle effect)?
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#1927891 - 07/17/12 05:02 AM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: Kbeaumont]
dewster Offline
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Loc: Northern NJ
From the KeyboardMag article:

http://www.keyboardmag.com/article/casio-supercharges-the-privia-with-four-new-models/148998

"Casio’s new proprietary sound source, “AiR” (Acoustic and intelligent Resonator), delivers unmatched realism and detail. Utilizing over three times the waveform memory of the previous generation, the AiR engine provides sensational dynamics, damper resonance and even compensates for the speed at which hammers strike strings at different velocities and key ranges.

The new expanded Privia line not only has four different models which are available in a variety of colors and finishes but some models have expanded capabilities of the AiR sound source with up to 256 notes of polyphony, sympathetic resonance and cabinet simulation. The PX-350 and PX-850 also provide the ability to record a 44.1kHz .wav file directly to a USB thumb drive so that rehearsals, performances and moments of inspiration can be easily captured and shared."


I'm getting confused. The first paragraph uses the term "damper resonance". The second paragraph uses the term "sympathetic resonance" and implies that it isn't implemented in all models.
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#1927939 - 07/17/12 07:46 AM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: Kbeaumont]
EssBrace Online   content
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Registered: 12/01/09
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I take damper resonance to be that wider, more complex and richer, er, resonant sound that happens when you press the damper pedal to simulate the fact all strings are free to resonate in sympathy* (*confusing choice of word by me there but I can't think of an alternative to better differentiate it from my next sentence, sorry).

I take sympathetic resonance to mean that little trick you can pull on some DPs whereby you can press a key down and then other key presses will excite that key/strings, if there is a harmonic relationship between them etc. The basic nature of these behaviours, ie, that undamped (either by pedal or key press) strings are free to resonate is so similar and, significantly, interconnected in terms of acoustic piano behaviour, that it is very disappointing that DP manufacturers see the need to separate them in this way. A cheap and unimaginative method of product differentiation if you ask me.

Steve
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#1927962 - 07/17/12 08:40 AM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: Kbeaumont]
toddy Offline
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Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 1320
Loc: Portugal
Dewster says "damper resonance" seems like a contradiction in terms since dampers are there to quash resonance, and "string resonance" is so general it's kind of meaningless

Maybe the contradiction in terms goes much farther back in history than DP blurb. The main pedal on a piano is called 'sustain pedal' or 'damper pedal' or, when I was a kid, simply the 'loud pedal'. The problem with the term 'damper' of course is that its active function is exactly the opposite: to undampen the strings. So logically, it should be called the 'undamper pedal' or the dedamper.

And surely, selective sympathetic resonance should happen 'automatically' if the DP designer has implemented 'pedal resonance' properly, because 'string/sympathetic resonance' is a specific, and technically a far more basic instance of 'pedal resonance'.

In other words, yes, I agree, Essbrace - the two types of resonance are part of the same thing......or should be.
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#1927978 - 07/17/12 09:10 AM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: toddy]
anotherscott Offline
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Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3076
Originally Posted By: toddy
In other words, yes, I agree, Essbrace - the two types of resonance are part of the same thing......or should be.

In the physical world, they are. In the electronic world, it takes different techniques to implement them.

Nord offers the pedal-down style of string resonance on all the current models that have piano functions, including the least expensive Electro 3. Nord offers the pedal-up-key-down style only on their higher end models.

In terms of how the sound has to be processed, I think the difference can be summed up this way: On a model with no resonance features at all, there is only one way a middle C will sound (at a given velocity). On a model with pedal-down resonance, there are two sounds that can be generated by hitting that middle C... the pedal up version, and the pedal down version. For a "pedal-up but other-keys-down" implementation, there are hundreds of possible sounds that middle C can make, as it will sound different depending on which key (or 2 keys, or 3 keys...) your other hand is holding down at the time. So the first kind of resonance can be implemented simply by doubling the number of samples used. But since it's not practical to create samples for every possible variation, the second kind needs an algorithm that can essentially generate numerous variations from a smaller number of actual samples. I imagine there are ways to cheat, and not necessarily create a completely different resonance sound for each different combination of held keys. But it's still more complicated than the first scenario. This is probably one of the areas where modeling makes more sense than manipulating samples.

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#1928007 - 07/17/12 10:05 AM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: Kbeaumont]
bfb Offline
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Registered: 05/25/11
Posts: 531
Loc: Atlanta GA USA
i didn't read the specs but i think you wouldn't want to overly handicap the 150 and 350 technology wise. i don't know casio's sweet spot of the market but i think lightweight boards that will travel are an important part of their niche? the 150 and 350 will weigh about 25 lbs. The 750 and 850 are wood encased- 75-80lbs?

i know there is a $600 spread between the 150 and the 850- so they can't offer the same features, but seems like you ought to make the 350 an upgrade that captures the most sought after sound characteristics. perhaps all the resonance stuff doesn't matter if you are playing at a party or whatever- people don't really pick it up. and none of these will most likely be detailed enough to record. But for 1100 bucks (the 350?), i'd want to think i'm not leaving a lot of sound character on the table.

just a thought
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#1928019 - 07/17/12 10:30 AM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: bfb]
anotherscott Offline
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Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3076
My guess would have been that there would be a low end and high end portable model (in the 150 and 350), and a low end and a high end in-home model (i.e. basically the same models in furniture would be the 750 and 850, with the latter enclosure being more substantial as well)... but it doesn't appear that they went quite that way.

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#1928023 - 07/17/12 10:39 AM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: bfb]
voxpops Offline
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Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 2918
Loc: Oregon
Originally Posted By: bfb
But for 1100 bucks (the 350?), i'd want to think i'm not leaving a lot of sound character on the table.

Oh, please! Having just ranted about Kawai needlessly crippling their portable DPs, don't tell me I'm going to have to do the same thing regarding these new Casios!

There are plenty of players who use these instruments beyond just bashing out a few tunes at parties. Subtlety isn't confined to the parlor! It really irks me when manufacturers refuse to offer portable users a fully refined model. As it states in the blurb for the 850, the functionality just needs to be unlocked. Well, unlock it for the 350, already!!!

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#1928033 - 07/17/12 10:52 AM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: voxpops]
KLSinCT Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/07/12
Posts: 148
Loc: Stonington, CT USA
Originally Posted By: voxpops
Originally Posted By: bfb
But for 1100 bucks (the 350?), i'd want to think i'm not leaving a lot of sound character on the table.

Oh, please! Having just ranted about Kawai needlessly crippling their portable DPs, don't tell me I'm going to have to do the same thing regarding these new Casios!

There are plenty of players who use these instruments beyond just bashing out a few tunes at parties. Subtlety isn't confined to the parlor! It really irks me when manufacturers refuse to offer portable users a fully refined model. As it states in the blurb for the 850, the functionality just needs to be unlocked. Well, unlock it for the 350, already!!!


I couldn't have said it better myself, Voxpops!

+1 thumb
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#1928036 - 07/17/12 11:10 AM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: anotherscott]
dewster Offline
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Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4271
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: anotherscott
So the first kind of resonance can be implemented simply by doubling the number of samples used. But since it's not practical to create samples for every possible variation, the second kind needs an algorithm that can essentially generate numerous variations from a smaller number of actual samples. I imagine there are ways to cheat, and not necessarily create a completely different resonance sound for each different combination of held keys. But it's still more complicated than the first scenario. This is probably one of the areas where modeling makes more sense than manipulating samples.

Even the response of the "pedal sympathetic resonance" varies with what is being played, so a single algorithmic approach might be best for both it and the "key sympathetic resonance" (though I do agree that sampled "pedal sympathetic resonance" can sound quite realistic). Ideally the algorithm would accurately reflect how the real piano behaves, and not just be a cheap reverb effect *cough*Yamaha*cough*.
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#1928052 - 07/17/12 11:42 AM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: voxpops]
bfb Offline
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Registered: 05/25/11
Posts: 531
Loc: Atlanta GA USA
Originally Posted By: voxpops
Originally Posted By: bfb
But for 1100 bucks (the 350?), i'd want to think i'm not leaving a lot of sound character on the table.

Oh, please! Having just ranted about Kawai needlessly crippling their portable DPs, don't tell me I'm going to have to do the same thing regarding these new Casios!

There are plenty of players who use these instruments beyond just bashing out a few tunes at parties. Subtlety isn't confined to the parlor! It really irks me when manufacturers refuse to offer portable users a fully refined model. As it states in the blurb for the 850, the functionality just needs to be unlocked. Well, unlock it for the 350, already!!!


methinks i struck a raw nerve.

put me in the camp that doesn't understand the magic of putting your best digital technology in a wooden case to sit in the den, and handicapping that which could travel outside the home (where having the product seen in public might be the BEST FREE ADVERTISING YOU COULD GET?). but then i do own an acoustic too...


Edited by bfb (07/17/12 11:46 AM)
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#1928065 - 07/17/12 12:18 PM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: bfb]
voxpops Offline
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Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 2918
Loc: Oregon
Originally Posted By: bfb


methinks i struck a raw nerve.

You did indeed! There is false logic at work here. These companies are paranoid that they need to differentiate sufficiently between their own models. What they don't get is that - in Casio's case - the competition is not between the PX-350 and PX-850, but between the PX-350 and the Roland RD-300NX (or FP-whatever), and between the PX-850 and the Roland HP5xx. If you're in the market for a portable device, you're not going to be interested in hauling half-a-pallet's-worth of chipboard! There is no need to cripple the PX-350 for fear of damaging the sales of the 850.

Likewise, the market for the Kawai ES-7 is different from that for the CA-95. The extended action of the new CAs is sufficient in itself to differentiate the models. That would be impractical in a portable device, but the sound engine is critical to the success of both. I have said it before, and I'll say it again: stop forcing customers to use software to make up for inadequate sound engines! Your top models are barely good enough as it is - there is no excuse for even lower standards.

Quote:
put me in the camp that doesn't understand the magic of putting your best digital technology in a wooden case to sit in the den, and handicapping that which could travel outside the home (where having the product seen in public might be the BEST FREE ADVERTISING YOU COULD GET?). but then i do own an acoustic too...

I couldn't agree more. I posted something almost identical a couple of years ago when the MP6 was launched with a lesser engine to the beautiful but hugely heavy (and therefore not readily portable) MP10. Do these guys listen? No, sadly not. They'd obviously rather have so-so sounds heard on stages around the world than interfere with their precious marketing segmentation.

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#1928095 - 07/17/12 01:03 PM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: voxpops]
dewster Offline
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Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4271
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: voxpops
Do these guys listen? No, sadly not. They'd obviously rather have so-so sounds heard on stages around the world than interfere with their precious marketing segmentation.

When I worked in the electronics industry the people in sales had much more say over the products than us engineers. We had all sorts of software options that required expensive "keys" to unlock (lame, but better than requiring an "upgraded" hardware platform to get the desired functionality). And when I was leaving it seemed like the supply chain people were taking over. Too many cooks with their own fiefdoms to defend. Mix in the brain dead upper management team and you get a perfect storm of stupid (and as Ron White says, you can't fix stupid). Literally any idiot can run a fundamentally undemocratic organization for a while. It's a wonder that any product makes sense.

We can harangue James and Mike until we're blue in the face, but our strong desires and constructive criticisms (if passed up the ladder) still must run a somewhat nonsensical gauntlet before they have a chance of making any difference at all.
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#1928098 - 07/17/12 01:14 PM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: voxpops]
bfb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/11
Posts: 531
Loc: Atlanta GA USA
Originally Posted By: voxpops
Originally Posted By: bfb


methinks i struck a raw nerve.

You did indeed! There is false logic at work here. These companies are paranoid that they need to differentiate sufficiently between their own models. What they don't get is that - in Casio's case - the competition is not between the PX-350 and PX-850, but between the PX-350 and the Roland RD-300NX (or FP-whatever), and between the PX-850 and the Roland HP5xx. If you're in the market for a portable device, you're not going to be interested in hauling half-a-pallet's-worth of chipboard! There is no need to cripple the PX-350 for fear of damaging the sales of the 850.

Likewise, the market for the Kawai ES-7 is different from that for the CA-95. The extended action of the new CAs is sufficient in itself to differentiate the models. That would be impractical in a portable device, but the sound engine is critical to the success of both. I have said it before, and I'll say it again: stop forcing customers to use software to make up for inadequate sound engines! Your top models are barely good enough as it is - there is no excuse for even lower standards.

Quote:
put me in the camp that doesn't understand the magic of putting your best digital technology in a wooden case to sit in the den, and handicapping that which could travel outside the home (where having the product seen in public might be the BEST FREE ADVERTISING YOU COULD GET?). but then i do own an acoustic too...

I couldn't agree more. I posted something almost identical a couple of years ago when the MP6 was launched with a lesser engine to the beautiful but hugely heavy (and therefore not readily portable) MP10. Do these guys listen? No, sadly not. They'd obviously rather have so-so sounds heard on stages around the world than interfere with their precious marketing segmentation.


I guess... what i'm NOT appreciating... is that the heaviness of real piano actions is what defines the home console from the performance board that travels. i keep thinking that someone should create a modular design. a performance board weighing 30-40 pounds that can be "parked" in an attractive cabinet with built in speakers for the home. and then easily removed to travel. But i guess you couldn't do that and get the best action- you'd compromise in favor of either the light travel board or the heavy home console. or maybe you could have plug and play actions- one for travel and one for home?

just thinking...


Edited by bfb (07/17/12 01:15 PM)
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#1928102 - 07/17/12 01:21 PM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: dewster]
voxpops Offline
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Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 2918
Loc: Oregon
Originally Posted By: dewster
We can harangue James and Mike until we're blue in the face, but our strong desires and constructive criticisms (if passed up the ladder) still must run a somewhat nonsensical gauntlet before they have a chance of making any difference at all.

Oh, I agree entirely. I'm not wanting to harangue either of these two great guys. After all, it wasn't Kawai that put James in the "firing line," but his own desire to share his enthusiasm. But James (and I suspect Mike) knows what gigging musicians want and need. The very fact that he upgraded his Electro 2 to a 3 was presumably in a search for the very best sounds he could get in a lightweight package. That is the same for all of us who need to perform peripatetically. I would suspect also that these guys are fully aware of the gauntlet that must be run as feedback is passed up the chain. But unless we make the noise, nothing even stands a chance of being acted upon.

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#1928113 - 07/17/12 02:00 PM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: Kbeaumont]
galaxy4t Offline
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Registered: 08/28/08
Posts: 846
Loc: Lakewood, CA
I think the key word here is marketing. Since Casio has traditionally been at the lower end of the price scale, most of their painos have offered similar features at lower price points. Now they seem to want to differentiate their lower end models from their upper range models and offer the 256 poly and sympat resonance on the high end PX-850. They still haven't announced the Celviano line yet and what's going on there. It still seems to come down to Casio holding the line on price, but offering something reasonably competitive for less. If Casio were to go toe to toe with Roland, Korg, and Kawai on price, wouldn't there still be resistance to spending that kind of money for a Casio given their history?

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#1928121 - 07/17/12 02:41 PM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: galaxy4t]
bfb Offline
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Registered: 05/25/11
Posts: 531
Loc: Atlanta GA USA
Originally Posted By: galaxy4t

If Casio were to go toe to toe with Roland, Korg, and Kawai on price, wouldn't there still be resistance to spending that kind of money for a Casio given their history?


sure.... and that doesn't assume that "history" equates with something perjorative. Casio delivers solid value for its price. But it is in the "value" segment.

i would always expect to pay less for an american car vs a european car- feature for feature, even though american cars are very competitive these days. And there isn't anything Ford or GM can do to change my mind on that. And that's probably true with Casio- fairly or unfairly. i guess that's why we see "Privia" and "Celviano"- as an attempt to get the next generation to look at those as specific brands, not as Casio brands.. Perhaps, that will allow them to go head to head with Rol-maha on both price and technology.

Me- i love Casio. my first digital piano was a Casio in the mid 80's. real cheese but great fun to play.
_________________________

Steinway M; Roland V-Piano; Yamaha P250; Roland FP 5
Ivory II Grands, Italian, American D; Galaxy Vintage D; Alicia's Keys; Garritan Steinway; Galaxy Pianos; The Grand 3

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#1928123 - 07/17/12 02:44 PM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: bfb]
EssBrace Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2327
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
Originally Posted By: bfb
Rol-maha


I think I prefer Yama-land.
_________________________
Yamaha CP1

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#1928128 - 07/17/12 02:54 PM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: EssBrace]
voxpops Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 2918
Loc: Oregon
Kawamaland.

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#1928160 - 07/17/12 04:22 PM Re: CASIO releases 4 new models [Re: Kbeaumont]
BrokenChord Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/25/11
Posts: 288
Loc: Michigan
Im interested in the PX 850 even though I find it to be very unattractive...

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