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#1928783 - 07/18/12 10:23 PM Re: 10 year old statement about Chinese pianos [Re: Pianolance]
Jonathan Alford Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/10/11
Posts: 356
Loc: Colorado
I have a Chinese piano I love. Since I have only had it for 8 months I cannot tell you yet what it will be like in 10 years.

Jonathan

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#1928856 - 07/19/12 02:23 AM Re: 10 year old statement about Chinese pianos [Re: Pianolance]
Dave B Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/01/11
Posts: 1734
Loc: Philadelphia area
Chinese Pianos come with free healthcare???

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#1928900 - 07/19/12 06:20 AM Re: 10 year old statement about Chinese pianos [Re: Rank Piano Amateur]
BoseEric Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/08/06
Posts: 731
Loc: Fairfield County, CT
Originally Posted By: Rank Piano Amateur
Steve:

Some years ago, I read an article about the auto industry in which the author of the article noted that (1) Japanese cars cost less than their American counterparts, and (2) every single Japanese car made in Japan had a pre-existing subsidy of something like $6500 dollars because of Japan's health care and retirement systems. Quite an advantage.



I'm a little confused. How does universal health care (which I am for btw) and retirement represent a SUBSIDY? My assumption would be that it represents an added cost and therefore a relative disadvantage to costs.
_________________________
RPT. In the business: Feurich pianos, Neupert harpsichords, Hidrau benches, piano technician

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#1928922 - 07/19/12 07:33 AM Re: 10 year old statement about Chinese pianos [Re: Pianolance]
Rank Piano Amateur Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/11/07
Posts: 1735
Just to stay off topic for a moment: universal health care and government-funded retirement benefits are not really a subsidy, but they are sums that the manufacturer is not required to pay. Instead of building them into the price of a piano (or a car), the manufacturer can charge a lower price for whatever it is the manufacturer produces. It is true that these benefits must be paid for, but they will not be paid for as part of the price that the manufacturer charges.

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#1928970 - 07/19/12 09:22 AM Re: 10 year old statement about Chinese pianos [Re: Rank Piano Amateur]
Steve Cohen Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 10346
Loc: Maryland/DC/No. VA
Originally Posted By: Rank Piano Amateur
Just to stay off topic for a moment: universal health care and government-funded retirement benefits are not really a subsidy, but they are sums that the manufacturer is not required to pay. Instead of building them into the price of a piano (or a car), the manufacturer can charge a lower price for whatever it is the manufacturer produces. It is true that these benefits must be paid for, but they will not be paid for as part of the price that the manufacturer charges.


isn't that a function of the country's choosen tax system. A VAT collects as part of the purchase price.
_________________________
Piano Industry Consultant- http://www.linkedin.com/pub/steve-cohen/6/b92/b80

Consultant & Contributing Editor - Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer

Jasons Music
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Since 1937.

www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.

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#1928982 - 07/19/12 09:57 AM Re: 10 year old statement about Chinese pianos [Re: Pianolance]
Rusty Fortysome Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/25/11
Posts: 194
Loc: USA
I am always curious of how pianos survive through time. For example, the Chinese versions or Korean versions or certain low-end makes. Most pianos made and sold on the cheap are probably forgotten and "disappear" without much exposure to technicians/tuners or anyone that registers info on the pianos. The Japanese have developed a strong couple of piano makers by examining longevity and advancing the way they build their instruments to match the ravages of time.

Wasn't part of the Chinese healthcare system based on piano makers also doubling the cases as caskets? I'd rather be buried in a Fazioli. Bet there are a lot of Chinese playing iron frames in heaven, instead of harps.
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#1929139 - 07/19/12 03:14 PM Re: 10 year old statement about Chinese pianos [Re: Pianolance]
Rank Piano Amateur Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/11/07
Posts: 1735
Steve: Americans do not pay a VAT on purchases of imported goods, at least not as far as I know. Let's say there is a VAT on pianos in China. A person in China who buys a piano in China will have to pay it. An American who buys a piano imported to this country from China will not. This means that Chinese pianos after import into the US have an even greater competitive advantage.

Before I get criticized here, I have no idea whether there is a VAT in China or not. It's just an example. It works better with European pianos, because there is a VAT in Europe that Americans won't pay on pianos imported into the US, but European pianos are already expensive, probably due in large part to the first world standard of living obtaining in European countries.

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#1929158 - 07/19/12 04:04 PM Re: 10 year old statement about Chinese pianos [Re: Pianolance]
spanishbuddha Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 2240
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: Pianolance
Rank,

This thread isn't about universal health care, but since you went there let me just say that if you were in England and you were having a heart attack you would have to wait for hours BEFORE an ambulance showed up to your house to take you to the emergency room, and then you would have to wait several more hours IN THE AMBULANCE (it's called ambulance stacking) before you got into the emergency room. Once in the emergency room, they hospital has a 4 hour time limit to see you, so you could potentially wait 4 more hours before you even saw a doctor. That's because of Universal Health Care available to all lucky British citizens. To be sure we have problems with our health care system that need to be addressed, but I say no thanks on universal health care. I know this will probably spark a debate, but anyone who believes that universal health care is the answer to our health care problems is misinformed. All universal health care brings is a whole new set of problems worse than the problems we already have.

Staying OT, sorry, I live in the UK, sure we have problems with public health budgets but this is mostly pure and utter BS. You've been suckered buddy. I don't know the US political debate, but clearly facts don't matter. That is the same here too BTW.

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#1929254 - 07/19/12 07:19 PM Re: 10 year old statement about Chinese pianos [Re: Pianolance]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 6179
Loc: Rochester MN
_________________________
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It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#1929488 - 07/20/12 05:57 AM Re: 10 year old statement about Chinese pianos [Re: Pianolance]
mric Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 63
Originally Posted By: Pianolance
Rank,

This thread isn't about universal health care, but since you went there let me just say that if you were in England and you were having a heart attack you would have to wait for hours BEFORE an ambulance showed up to your house to take you to the emergency room, and then you would have to wait several more hours IN THE AMBULANCE (it's called ambulance stacking) before you got into the emergency room. Once in the emergency room, they hospital has a 4 hour time limit to see you, so you could potentially wait 4 more hours before you even saw a doctor. That's because of Universal Health Care available to all lucky British citizens. To be sure we have problems with our health care system that need to be addressed, but I say no thanks on universal health care. I know this will probably spark a debate, but anyone who believes that universal health care is the answer to our health care problems is misinformed. All universal health care brings is a whole new set of problems worse than the problems we already have.

I fear that you have been lied to by someone. On ambulances, let's compare London and New York to be fair to the the US (since response times are obviously lower in rural US communities because of geography). In London, 75% of critical calls arrive in under 8 minutes - the target is 10 minutes in New York. There are no waiting times for critical cases in London.

Infant mortality (deaths in first year after birth) is used fairly often to compare the effectiveness of healthcare systems. The US has reduced infant mortality over the last 40 years, but much slower than Europe. The US rate of 6.6 deaths per thousand is 50% more than the UK or South Korea, twice the rate of Portugal, Greece or Germany, but the US can be proud of being slightly better than Chile in its healthcare provision for infants.

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#1929512 - 07/20/12 07:54 AM Re: 10 year old statement about Chinese pianos [Re: Pianolance]
BoseEric Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/08/06
Posts: 731
Loc: Fairfield County, CT
Hard to believe Rush and Glen might be wrong about some things...
_________________________
RPT. In the business: Feurich pianos, Neupert harpsichords, Hidrau benches, piano technician

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#1929590 - 07/20/12 10:28 AM Re: 10 year old statement about Chinese pianos [Re: BoseEric]
Steve Cohen Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 10346
Loc: Maryland/DC/No. VA
Originally Posted By: BoseEric
Hard to believe Rush and Glen might be wrong about some things...


laugh
_________________________
Piano Industry Consultant- http://www.linkedin.com/pub/steve-cohen/6/b92/b80

Consultant & Contributing Editor - Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer

Jasons Music
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Since 1937.

www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.

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#1929694 - 07/20/12 12:57 PM Re: 10 year old statement about Chinese pianos [Re: Pianolance]
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 13976
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
As long as we are talking about "Chinese Pianos" we keep missing the point.

Like an old German friend of mine who just traveled the U.S., loved the country but hated the food.

What my friend did not realize is that the top 100 American restaurants rank among world's best and some of the finest dining can be found right here.

Chinese also is not "Chinese" considering there are several among them who take things very very seriously.

These guys want no less than becoming world's best and spending unheard of amounts of money getting there.

Some of this is summarized in this article admittedly published by Pearl River.

However, the article should be read in context of Chinese government rules whereby advertising is not encouraged and in some cases even prohibited unless seen more as "news release"

http://www.sacbee.com/2012/07/13/4628574/chinas-piano-manufacturing-technology.html

Just as a Chinese kid practicing 6 hours daily or the Chinese student graduating with highest marks from Harvard, these guys shoot for nothing but the top.

Keep underestimating Chinese will and determination and the biggest surprises may still be upon us.

Interestingly neither the Japanese nor the German manufacturers take this very lightly: their companies are watching carefully from the sidelines, some of the Germans I've spoken to already start wondering "why we should build pianos at all"

Underestimating or denying things is not how to get competitive product on market. Nor is it worth getting in the discussion if one "likes" these developments or not.

Simply speaking, such is our world today: it doesn't matter "where" you live and what your own philosophy might be.

Unless you're perfectly willing and having the means to pay more for "not necessarily more". Or even less....

In the meantime Americans still have the opportunity to buy Steinways, Charles Walters and Masons.

Germans can and perhaps should only own their own brands.

Already 40 years ago I started to wonder why they don't.

Norbert


Edited by Norbert (07/20/12 03:22 PM)
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#1929739 - 07/20/12 02:18 PM Re: 10 year old statement about Chinese pianos [Re: Pianolance]
Guapo Gabacho Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/23/11
Posts: 430
Loc: Rio Grande Valley of Texas
At least the Chinese makers don't blow smoke and say they build for the North American climate.
_________________________
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#1929794 - 07/20/12 04:19 PM Re: 10 year old statement about Chinese pianos [Re: Norbert]
Kurtmen Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 632
Loc: San Mateo, CA
Quote:
Chinese also is not "Chinese" considering there are several among them who take things very very seriously.

These guys want no less than becoming world's best and spending unheard of amounts of money getting there.

Some of this is summarized in this article admittedly published by Pearl River.

However, the article should be read in context of Chinese government rules whereby advertising is not encouraged and in some cases even prohibited unless seen more as "news release"

http://www.sacbee.com/2012/07/13/4628574/chinas-piano-manufacturing-technology.html

Just as a Chinese kid practicing 6 hours daily or the Chinese student graduating with highest marks from Harvard, these guys shoot for nothing but the top.


Norbert as usual you take advantage of any available chance to give us some soft *spam*.

However your analogy of the Chinese student to the Chinese business man is completely absurd.
The Chinese business model is not about "shooting for the best" but "to make as much money as possible in the shortest amount of time".

If the worse piano in the world makes the most amount of Money; China will make it. If the best piano in the world makes the most amount of Money; China will make it.
However they are learning that business can’t be sustained making crap therefore changes are in progress.



Edited by Kurtmen (07/20/12 05:14 PM)
_________________________
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#1929812 - 07/20/12 04:46 PM Re: 10 year old statement about Chinese pianos [Re: Kurtmen]
Dara Online   blank
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/18/09
Posts: 986
Loc: west coast island, canada
Originally Posted By: Kurtmen

If the worse piano in the world makes the most amount Money China will make it. If the best piano in the world makes the most amount of Money; China will make it. However they are learning that business can’t be sustain making crap and therefore changes are in progress.


Kurtmen, unless English isn't your first language... you ought to learn.

Ya, I think we get your anti-Chinese rift.

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#1929827 - 07/20/12 05:03 PM Re: 10 year old statement about Chinese pianos [Re: Dara]
Kurtmen Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 632
Loc: San Mateo, CA
Dara,
Not at all, I'm not anti-Chinese. I simply disagree with Norbert's analogy and provided my opinion.
However, I assume my opinion disturbed you a little but there is no need to reach for some sort of personal remarks.
You are welcome to show your discomfort in proper fashion by telling me why you disagree.

Relax thumb sit down and enjoy the forum.


Edited by Kurtmen (07/20/12 05:07 PM)
_________________________
San Mateo Piano
Purveyors of:
Kawai, Wilh. Steinberg.
Kawai Digital Piano, Pianodisc.
<a href="http://sanmateopiano.com" style="color:#FF0505;font-size:10px;font-family:Times New Roman;text-decoration:underline;" target="_blank" >http://sanmateopiano.com</a>

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#1929838 - 07/20/12 05:11 PM Re: 10 year old statement about Chinese pianos [Re: Kurtmen]
Dara Online   blank
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/18/09
Posts: 986
Loc: west coast island, canada
Originally Posted By: Kurtmen

thumb sit down and enjoy the forum.


I'm sitting, and also enjoying listening to some fine piano music.

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#1929842 - 07/20/12 05:17 PM Re: 10 year old statement about Chinese pianos [Re: Norbert]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19105
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Norbert
These guys want no less than becoming world's best and spending unheard of amounts of money getting there.
As Kurtmen pointed out a statement like this and the analogy to Chinese piano students seems awfully silly.

If the Chinese are trying to build the best quality, they have miles to go and haven't started at the right level either quality wise or price wise. Saying some Chinese pianos may be good values(for their price)is completely different from saying they are anywhere near the best.

Unless you think "best" means most commercially successful.

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#1929863 - 07/20/12 05:38 PM Re: 10 year old statement about Chinese pianos [Re: Pianolance]
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 13976
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
There's no doubt that retailers for other oriental pianos will be the first to go on the denial trail.

Their curious denial is quite in sync with the fact that many if not most of their own pianos are also being built in China.

Except their companies choose on purpose to only build the lowest grade "entry-level" there often for no other reasons than to protect jobs at home.

Something for which you certainly don't need Lothar Thomma, Frank Emerson or Rudolph Ibach. Or needing to spend oodles of money building entirely new production facilities virtually unmatched in the West.

In fact the 'best business to be had' is permeating the myth that only foreign companies can build the best - at home of course....

Funny enough, some of the Germans I talk to are not so sure of this any longer themselves.

If I was the Chinese student, doctor, businessman, entrepreneur or simply curious world traveler, I would be a bit challenged by all of this. There's a new confidence of doing things and it's showing.

Many of the Chinese customers we see these days have a slightly different take on this : we clearly see this on the type questions we're getting, the quality of players trying the pianos, the research being undertaken and last not least - in actual "sales".

Admiring those who manage to stay in a permanent state of denial, it must be a convenient place to be - at least for the time being.

Let's count the time before some of same gentlemen will line up to become dealers themselves - if for nothing else but trying to avoid facing the biggest competition they hoped never having to deal with in their lives.

Most German dealers I know have by now...

Norbert


Edited by Norbert (07/20/12 06:07 PM)
_________________________
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Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
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#1929884 - 07/20/12 06:05 PM Re: 10 year old statement about Chinese pianos [Re: Pianolance]
Nick Mauel Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/05/08
Posts: 777
Loc: Sarasota and Naples, FL
If Steinway decided to open a factory in China, could the quality of the pianos be at least the same or better than those from New York?

Why or why not?
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#1929886 - 07/20/12 06:07 PM Re: 10 year old statement about Chinese pianos [Re: Dara]
Kurtmen Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 632
Loc: San Mateo, CA
I truly believe that Chinese piano manufacturers can build outstanding products. Why not?
Chinese piano makers have the financial resorts to bring the best designs, materials and builders.
The questions are:
Are they interested in building high-quality pianos?

Is there enough consumers’ confidence to pay the price for a high-quality piano made in China?

Is it worth for piano dealers to pay extra for a better Chinese piano?

My answer to all these questions is NO, based on the following reasons.

A) I constantly see advertising in all types of media selling Made in Japan, Made in the USA or Made in Germany or Europe. Never made in China.

B) Even those dealers who doesn't carry Kawai, Yamaha or Steinway somehow they try to advertise these three brands in their websites or promotional activities.

C) A very large number of dealers selling Chinese pianos still selling grey market Japanese pianos and rebuilt Steinways.

D) Must if not all Chinese Piano Makers CANNOT detach from making a connection of their products to Germany or Japan. This is something the Japanese companies don't do.

E) I noticed often dealers using the size of the piano as selling point instead of the quality. It is very typical for dealers to say: "You can buy this 6'1" X brand for 50% less than the equivalent piano made by Kawai or Yamaha.

F) I never see advertising of X brand proudly Made in China.

G) When buyers ask, where is this piano made? Hardly ever a dealer answers China, without previously giving a talk about the German Components or parts from Europe.

H) The Chinese population in North America is a very significant consumer for the piano industry. I hardly see Chinese people asking for pianos made in China (rare).

These are facts of the piano industry. Hard to hear for those selling Chinese brands but hard to say this is not accurate...









Edited by Kurtmen (07/20/12 06:15 PM)
_________________________
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Purveyors of:
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#1929918 - 07/20/12 06:56 PM Re: 10 year old statement about Chinese pianos [Re: Pianolance]
Guapo Gabacho Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/23/11
Posts: 430
Loc: Rio Grande Valley of Texas
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#1929931 - 07/20/12 07:19 PM Re: 10 year old statement about Chinese pianos [Re: pianoloverus]
Del Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 5070
Loc: Olympia, Washington
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
If the Chinese are trying to build the best quality, they have miles to go and haven't started at the right level either quality wise or price wise. Saying some Chinese pianos may be good values(for their price)is completely different from saying they are anywhere near the best.

Is there anyone else around here who remembers working the less-than-stellar pianos Yamaha shipped over here in the 1960s?

I can remember some fairly significant problems with their pianos.

I can also remember that some of the same types of comments being made about Chinese pianos today were being made about Japanese pianos back then.

How quickly we forget….

ddf
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#1929943 - 07/20/12 07:56 PM Re: 10 year old statement about Chinese pianos [Re: Del]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19105
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Del
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
If the Chinese are trying to build the best quality, they have miles to go and haven't started at the right level either quality wise or price wise. Saying some Chinese pianos may be good values(for their price)is completely different from saying they are anywhere near the best.

Is there anyone else around here who remembers working the less-than-stellar pianos Yamaha shipped over here in the 1960s?

I can remember some fairly significant problems with their pianos.

I can also remember that some of the same types of comments being made about Chinese pianos today were being made about Japanese pianos back then.

How quickly we forget….

ddf
But even today after 50 years, with the exception of the super expensive CF and S models, I doubt many put Yamaha in the same quality(by this I mean performance quality and not build quality) as most Tier 1 and Tier 2 pianos in the Fine hierarchy. I don't doubt that if some Chinese company decided to build much more expensive models than at the present, they could eventually build the highest quality pianos.


Edited by pianoloverus (07/20/12 08:08 PM)

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#1929992 - 07/20/12 10:00 PM Re: 10 year old statement about Chinese pianos [Re: Pianolance]
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 13976
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
there are several statements made her based on myth, not facts, certainly not current ones. Nobody should be afraid of the truth and nothing personal is intended: here's my answer to Kurtman's above post:

Quote:
"I truly believe that Chinese piano manufacturers can build outstanding products. Why not? Chinese piano makers have the financial resorts to bring the best designs, materials and builders. The questions are: Are they interested in building high-quality pianos?


Some are - some aren't. Hailun Chen, Pearl River [Ritmüller-Kayserburg, Parsons ["Brodmann"] and few others have their ambitions set very high. These guys know the toughness of a fiercely competitive market on their own home turf and are going all out to raise the ante. They may not succeed to ascend to top tier pianos at this time but the speed by which they have accomplished things is frightening to say the least.
Give these guys a few more years and we could be in for one big surprise.

Quote:
Is there enough consumers’ confidence to pay the price for a high-quality piano made in China? Is it worth for piano dealers to pay extra for a better Chinese piano?


Quote:
My answer to all these questions is NO, based on the following reasons....


It is interesting that those dealers answering "No" are often dealers for Japanese pianos. Some of the dealers also don't tell their customers that the "Japanese" model they are looking at is in fact already made in China - yet it is always the "Japanese" company identity being sold. We have collected a number of pictures of those pianos" clearly depicting "made in China" on their factory crates. Often a shock to unsuspecting shoppers who never thought about this being possible...

Quote:
A) I constantly see advertising in all types of media selling Made in Japan, Made in the USA or Made in Germany or Europe. Never made in China.


This is valid criticism but expected to change fairly rather quick.. Certain Chinese pianos - especially when being highly selective - have reached a level where "made in China" is no longer a shameful label but the guarantee for excellent quality, great tone and unbelievable value. Add another 5 years and people will insist on "made in China" Simply because few will be prepared at that time to pay more without getting more. The onus will be increasingly on the more - not the less expensive pianos.

Quote:

B) Even those dealers who doesn't carry Kawai, Yamaha or Steinway somehow they try to advertise these three brands in their websites or promotional activities.

C) A very large number of dealers selling Chinese pianos still selling grey market Japanese pianos and rebuilt Steinways.


Simple because of "ease of selling" These dealers, for the most part, go with the flow knowing full well they're selling overpriced stuff. Personally I never had much regard for them.
Selling the same perfume simply for less than somebody else is not everybody's cup. Once the tide turns in favor of more critical shoppers [which it will..] these dealers will abandon their position overnight. Perhaps a fun play to watch from retirement...

Quote:
D) Must if not all Chinese Piano Makers CANNOT detach from making a connection of their products to Germany or Japan. This is something the Japanese companies don't do.


Not true, at least no longer. Nobody in manufacturing ever forgot the men with friendly smiles flocking to Germany and the U.S. with little cameras hidden in their breast pockets. Sure things developed from there but let's not forget where things started some 45 years ago....

There's also nothing wrong with a legit "German connection"
If Ferdinand Porsche would have gone to China designing and building cars, then selling them at 1/5 the price, I would perhaps own one. Perhaps you too.

Quote:

F) I never see advertising of X brand proudly Made in China.

G) When buyers ask, where is this piano made? Hardly ever a dealer answers China, without previously giving a talk about the German Components or parts from Europe.


We actually "do" - when and where applicable. Not all Chinese pianos of course have genuine German design, Renner hammers, Roslau strings, Strunz soundboards etc, but most of ours do.

We also don't sell "European" "German" or "Japanese" pianos" which may come from there and are actually [pre] manufactured in China including most of their critical parts and components... This has been one of the most shameful episodes and will simply speed up the way we will be looking at things.

Quote:
H) The Chinese population in North America is a very significant consumer for the piano industry. I hardly see Chinese people asking for pianos made in China (rare).


Brace yourself for some changes to come. As opposed to "easy selling" we constantly educate our customers about real quality and musical tone - especially at price point. Many start realizing this and become very grateful and appreciative customers. Their kids are exceeding in music everywhere and they love their instruments. If you believe that Chinese people like to spend more than necessary,better think again. There's a new Chinese awareness and national pride better be taken into consideration. This is no longer China run by the British or other outsiders. Once the cat is out of the sack the Chinese wall will come down even faster than the Berlin one did.

Quote:
These are facts of the piano industry. Hard to hear for those selling Chinese brands but hard to say this is not accurate...
"I truly believe that Chinese piano manufacturers can build outstanding products. Why not? Chinese piano makers have the financial resorts to bring the best designs, materials and builders. The questions are: Are they interested in building high-quality pianos?


This won't be the question. The real issue will be to deal with the Chinese postulates: "if you you like to sell in our market - build your stuff here, at least some of it or together with us."

The summary of all of this is that you can't bluff yourself through today's highly competitive market. Country of origin - outside world's absolute top makes - will become less and less important. And even those are moving [ at least some] of their production increasingly to China. 8000 German companies already have. And they're selling there like crazy...

Those who believe being able to work outside these realities better have a great retirement plan at hand.

They may need it.....

Norbert


Edited by Norbert (07/21/12 12:10 PM)
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#1930014 - 07/20/12 10:48 PM Re: 10 year old statement about Chinese pianos [Re: Norbert]
Karl Watson Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/20/11
Posts: 232
Thanks, Norbert.

Your contributions are always informed and compelling.

I daresay that there are few here who can refute these very clear and logically reasoned arguments.

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#1930059 - 07/21/12 01:29 AM Re: 10 year old statement about Chinese pianos [Re: pianoloverus]
Del Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 5070
Loc: Olympia, Washington
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: Del
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
If the Chinese are trying to build the best quality, they have miles to go and haven't started at the right level either quality wise or price wise. Saying some Chinese pianos may be good values(for their price)is completely different from saying they are anywhere near the best.

Is there anyone else around here who remembers working the less-than-stellar pianos Yamaha shipped over here in the 1960s?

I can remember some fairly significant problems with their pianos.

I can also remember that some of the same types of comments being made about Chinese pianos today were being made about Japanese pianos back then.

But even today after 50 years, with the exception of the super expensive CF and S models, I doubt many put Yamaha in the same quality(by this I mean performance quality and not build quality) as most Tier 1 and Tier 2 pianos in the Fine hierarchy. I don't doubt that if some Chinese company decided to build much more expensive models than at the present, they could eventually build the highest quality pianos.

But that really is the point isn’t it? In just the time I’ve been in the business Yamaha has gone from building cheap, troublesome pianos to building inexpensive, reliable pianos along with building pianos that rival some of the best pianos built anywhere in the world. I don’t recall that Kawai ever sent pianos to the U.S. that were quite as troublesome as those early Yamahas but they weren’t as good then as they have become now. And Kawai also now builds pianos that stand among the best of the world’s pianos.

Why should we think that the Chinese experience will be any different? The early Chinese-built offerings were, to put it mildly, pathetic. Now, just two decades later, some Chinese manufacturers are building pianos that are both inexpensive and are setting new standards for performance in their market categories. No, they do not yet rival the world’s best pianos but in their price ranges some of them are outstanding musical instruments.

Why should we think the best of these companies are going to stop here? Not all of them will continue to evolve, of course. Just like some Japanese piano makers did not. But some will.

The largest piano market in the world just now is China. It is a market that started out ignorant and naïve. But it is rapidly changing as the Chinese people become more conversant with Western music and Western musical instruments. Nothing stays the same and the most forward thinking and planning Chinese piano makers are not staying the same either.

ddf
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Stupidity is a rare condition, ignorance is a common choice. --Anon

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#1930115 - 07/21/12 06:28 AM Re: 10 year old statement about Chinese pianos [Re: Pianolance]
maurus Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/11
Posts: 753
I think you are spot on, Del. If China solves some of its main internal problems, the world will look quite different in a few decades, and not just in the realm of piano making. Boesendorfer is now owned by Yamaha. Who will own the most renowned piano makers in, say, 20 years (or less)?
_________________________
Shigeru Kawai SK-2, etc.

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#1930120 - 07/21/12 06:51 AM Re: 10 year old statement about Chinese pianos [Re: Del]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19105
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Del
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: Del
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
If the Chinese are trying to build the best quality, they have miles to go and haven't started at the right level either quality wise or price wise. Saying some Chinese pianos may be good values(for their price)is completely different from saying they are anywhere near the best.

Is there anyone else around here who remembers working the less-than-stellar pianos Yamaha shipped over here in the 1960s?

I can remember some fairly significant problems with their pianos. Five, ten, or 25 years from now anything could happen to change that.

I can also remember that some of the same types of comments being made about Chinese pianos today were being made about Japanese pianos back then.

But even today after 50 years, with the exception of the super expensive CF and S models, I doubt many put Yamaha in the same quality(by this I mean performance quality and not build quality) as most Tier 1 and Tier 2 pianos in the Fine hierarchy. I don't doubt that if some Chinese company decided to build much more expensive models than at the present, they could eventually build the highest quality pianos.

But that really is the point isn’t it? In just the time I’ve been in the business Yamaha has gone from building cheap, troublesome pianos to building inexpensive, reliable pianos along with building pianos that rival some of the best pianos built anywhere in the world. I don’t recall that Kawai ever sent pianos to the U.S. that were quite as troublesome as those early Yamahas but they weren’t as good then as they have become now. And Kawai also now builds pianos that stand among the best of the world’s pianos.
I don't think we're that far apart here.

My point was that at present no Chinese makers are building pianos that have the equivalent goals(building the best piano possible) as the Shigeru or Yamaha CF or S series. At present, they are building inexpensive pianos not even designed to compete with the Tier 1 and Tier 2 pianos the way those Kawai and Yamaha models do.

Hence Norbert's analogy to Chinese piano students(who do try to be the best)seems incorrect. Five, ten, or 25 years from now anything could happen to change this.



Edited by pianoloverus (07/21/12 08:09 AM)

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