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This is not about spam, nor I work for the company. But there's a lot going on and I think that musicians, composers, copyists, etc, should know about it. http://www.facebook.com/SaveSibeliusEven if you don't use Sibelius and don't care about notation software, be aware that the closing of the offices in the uk, and firing Daniel Spreadbury (an amazing person, truly) will probably halt all Sibelius development and eventually the development of other software (no rivals means no competition, and no competition means no improvement...  ). Even if you don't care about the software, consider that without Sibelius Editions Musica Ferrum would have published thus far around 13 titles, instead of 29, and half of what's coming in the next months! Simple as that! In July 2012, Avid Technology announced the closure of Sibelius UK, home of the Sibelius development and support team. Avid claims this will make no difference to Sibelius. Nothing could be further from the truth. Click "About" to read on... Description Sibelius is a music composing/arranging application designed by the Sibelius Team in the UK Office. The UK Office is closing, and the programmers and designers who have made Sibelius a major success will not be able to further develop the best computer based composing/arranging application in existence today. We implore those of you who use this marvelous composing application to write the board here: http://ir.avid.com/contactBoard.cfmThe direct email addresses for the CEO and other Avid VP/Directors are: Gary Greenfield (CEO): gary.greenfield@avid.com Martin Kloiber (VP Live Systems and Consoles at Avid Technology): martin.kloiber@avid.com Dana Ruzicka (VP Strategic Alliances at Avid Technology): dana.ruzicka@avid.com Ian Bruce (Worldwide Director of Corporate Communications): ian.bruce@avid.com and the AVID Blog: http://community.avid.com/blogs/avid/archive/2012/07/07/sibelius-community.aspxBased on its latest published figures, Avid is in financial trouble. Right after the most recent stockholders meeting, all the Avid board of directors sold significant shares of stock, clearly a co-ordinated sale. Simultaneously, several key executives resigned, including Vice President, CFO and CTO. Avid is short of cash and desperately trying to shore up its liquidity with reckless cost cutting. Sibelius is viable as a standalone company, but without sustained pressure from its users, Avid will try to run it offshore, most likely in the Ukraine. This short-term thinking is solely to ease Avid through its present cash crisis, not in any way for the benefit of Sibelius users. In fact it will effectively destroy Sibelius. Please help us to persuade Avid that it is in everyone’s best interests for them to sell Sibelius to a third party as soon as possible. This will still ease its cash crisis, but will ensure Sibelius lives on in safe hands.
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They fired Dan? That's...shocking! He was so nice...such a shame...
Sometimes, we all just need to be shown a little kindness <3
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I don't think they've fired him just yet, but they're about it.
And I did tell them (as pretty much everyone I know) that Sibelius IS Daniel! without him I wouldn't be using Sibelius!
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I really hope that they don't fire Daniel and that Sibelius will assert itself! I love both!
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Music is my best friend.
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Over and over again, decent and viable small companies are taken over by predatory larger companies, and then their product is run into the ground, and the staff with the deepest knowledge of it is laid off.
It is the magic of the omniscient marketplace in action...how could one ever be so bold as to question the majesty of its workings?
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A cycle that can be avoided by remaining a private company.
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I remember about a year ago thinking that Avid (which was originally a video editing software company) having taken over Pro Tools, M-Audio and Sibelius could have extensive synergies or (if they're incompetent) have over extended themselves. Anyone tracking the performance of AVID (that's the stock ticker) would see that things have been going badly for about 3 years. MakeMusic owner of Finale (MMUS) has done marginally better over the same time period (both are public companies). Avid recently sold off M-Audio to raise cash. Closing down Sibelius implies they couldn't find a buyer for that part of the company. Avid was strongest when it was just the professional video and music production platforms (Avid and Pro Tools) and getting back to that may be what they're aiming to do now.
My personal viewpoint is Sibelius was the best thing to happen to Finale. The competitive pressure made Finale a far better product and more attention was paid to usability. Though I don't use Sibelius I would be sad to see the company go out of business. Apparently closing the UK office is essentially a death sentence, but I don't believe their salvation lies with Avid. Their best bet is to find some capital and take themselves private again.
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Oh no! We were hoping to buy Sibelius very soon just for home use (have a kid interested in composition that used it at a piano camp and loved it). Not sure what to do now.
Amateur musician, piano and violin parent
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"...Over and over again, decent and viable small companies are taken over by predatory larger companies, and then their product is run into the ground..."
Baldwin, to mention only one.
Clef
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To be honest, I remember that when I heard about Avid last year or so I was not happy at all, although I didn't really think they would try to completely take it over just a few months later. 
Music is my best friend.
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I thought they sold the company years ago.
Yamaha AvantGrand N1X | Roland RD 2000 | Sennheiser HD 598 headphones
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Sibelius was sold to Avid in 2006, if not mistaken. But Avid (and pro-tools is a proof of that) managed to destroy pretty much anything audio under their wings...
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My personal viewpoint is Sibelius was the best thing to happen to Finale. The competitive pressure made Finale a far better product and more attention was paid to usability.
The early versions of Finale from the '90's were terribly anti-user friendly according to two older friends (one used it on a Mac, the other in Windows 3.1) of mine who used the program.
Jason
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My personal viewpoint is Sibelius was the best thing to happen to Finale. The competitive pressure made Finale a far better product and more attention was paid to usability.
The early versions of Finale from the '90's were terribly anti-user friendly according to two older friends (one used it on a Mac, the other in Windows 3.1) of mine who used the program. Hmm... I remember Finale 4.0 or something and then came Finale 98 which was pretty much like the current one! :P I've been using finale since about that time (which is almost 15 years now... WOW), and I have to say that very few things have changed in terms of work techniques. The tools remain the same and so does the basic ideas. There are a few things which are great time savers (the linked parts and the fact that you can double click on an item, thus choosing the right tool straight away, as well as something close to the magnetic tool of Sibelius), but other than that I work pretty much the same way I worked 15 years ago!  (And I should confess that Finale 2009 (or 2010?) has parts of 16-bit code in it, which meant that it would NEVER see my 6 GBs or RAM and I had to manually remove the 4 in order for it to see the proper RAM and install! Funny stuff...)
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I've been using finale since about that time (which is almost 15 years now... WOW), and I have to say that very few things have changed in terms of work techniques.
Interesting. I just recall that my two friends found the program quite a challenge. The Mac user was transcribing some Beach Boys songs, the Windows user was a composition student. Full disclosure, I have not used Finale myself. During my uni years, I studied and composed a fair amount of church music for the Anglican rite (canticles, anthems, hymn descants, some psalm settings), but they were always done -horrors- the old fashioned way. Funny how it goes, though. After uni my muse (whoever she was) took a hike and I have written litterally nothing since then.
Jason
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I find Sibelius more user-friendly, although my very first program was Finale Notepad even before I had a real instrument!!
Music is my best friend.
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I'm a long time Finale user, but I'm ready to admit that I believe that Sibelius is more user friendly.
But I also think that finale, still has a few capabilities that sibelius doesn't have... Some things are very difficult to do (close to impossible) in Sibelius, while Finale has these things a bit easier.
The other thing that bugs me with Sibelius is that its SO user friendly that everything is ready made and most users go with the default options, which leaves quite a bit to be desired! And this also means that a lot of scores look alike in Sibelius. In Finale the beginning (if you go for the default doc) is SO crude that you are forced to work your way in the layout!
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I'm a Sibelius user and troubled by this news. I hadn't known of Daniel Spreadbury before, but it sounds like he really is the heart and soul of the project. Just started reading his tweets at @dspreadbury: Thanks to everybody who has expressed concern for me and my colleagues today. It means a lot! @Stonewing No divestment, but it is closing our office and moving development elsewhere. Future of everybody in our office is unclear. Guess this is real, huh :-/
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Hmm... I remember Finale 4.0 or something and then came Finale 98 which was pretty much like the current one! :P I've been using finale since about that time (which is almost 15 years now... WOW), and I have to say that very few things have changed in terms of work techniques. The tools remain the same and so does the basic ideas. There are a few things which are great time savers (the linked parts and the fact that you can double click on an item, thus choosing the right tool straight away, as well as something close to the magnetic tool of Sibelius), but other than that I work pretty much the same way I worked 15 years ago! Is now the time to confess I use Finale 3.0 ?
Du holde Kunst...
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I'm a long time Finale user, but I'm ready to admit that I believe that Sibelius is more user friendly. I'm a Finale user since version 3.1 (early 1990s) and I noticed incremental changes in Finale once Sibelius came on the scene.
The other thing that bugs me with Sibelius is that its SO user friendly that everything is ready made and most users go with the default options, which leaves quite a bit to be desired! And this also means that a lot of scores look alike in Sibelius. In Finale the beginning (if you go for the default doc) is SO crude that you are forced to work your way in the layout!
LOL! This is the biggest flaw in Finale (beware vent coming). You are SOOO right, there's no way to use the default layout, whether it's music spacing, page layout, collisions between objects, dynamics, articulations, phrasing,... the list is endless and all of it requires manual adjustment. If I wasn't already on Finale's upgrade train I would have switched to Sibelius years ago, especially if they've managed to take all that effort out of use of their product. Sadly, it sounds like Sibelius' default look is merely good and if Avid is moving development "in house" it'll never be great. Bummer!
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Steve: You can crossgrade to Sibelius very cheaply (for less than 200$)... But as I said, I'm a fan of custom made scores in Finale!  In fact I have my own templates for page sizes and % and libraries (for EMF purposes).
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Finale (a product of MakeMusic, Inc.) is also in danger ... http://www.makemusic.com/Pressroom/Default.aspx?pid=555MakeMusic Confirms Receipt of Proposal from LaunchEquity Partners, LLC Minneapolis, MN – July 16, 2012 – MakeMusic, Inc. (NASDAQ: MMUS) confirms that it received, on July 15, 2012, a proposal from LaunchEquity Partners, LLC (“LaunchEquityâ€) to acquire the operating assets of MakeMusic, excluding cash, and assume the related liabilities of MakeMusic, free and clear of all liens and encumbrances, for $13.5 million. LaunchEquity’s proposal contemplates that MakeMusic would adopt a plan of liquidation, which would include a distribution of MakeMusic’s then available cash to existing shareholders. LaunchEquity and certain of its affiliates currently collectively own approximately 27.7% of MakeMusic’s outstanding common stock, according to the latest filings by LaunchEquity and its affiliates with the Securities and Exchange Commission. Consistent with its fiduciary duties, MakeMusic’s Board of Directors has appointed a Special Committee of independent, disinterested directors to review and consider the proposal, in consultation with financial and legal advisors, and determine the course of action that it believes is in the best interests of MakeMusic and its shareholders. The Board has authorized the Special Committee to consider the full range of available strategic alternatives including, but not limited to, continuing as an independent, public company with MakeMusic’s current growth plans.
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So what does this mean exactly?
I'm a relatively avid user of Sibelius 6, but I've never heard about this issue before.
Does the firing of this Daniel person mean that the company will be closing altogether. What problems will this cause exactly? No more new sibelius updates in the future? No Sibelius 8?
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So what does this mean exactly? Nobody really knows yet. The real problem is that Daniel Spreadbury was part of the UK office that was closed, and he was the senior product manager for over a decade. He's been the brains and the public face behind Sibelius for a long time. And aside from his official role, he also runs www.sibeliusblog.com - a great source of tutorials and insider tips and tricks. Many users, myself included, have come to trust Spreadbury and his vision for the software. Now, who knows what will happen. Avid won't have trouble finding top developer talent outside the UK, but they'll never find a development team with the kind of dedication and passion for music that the UK Sibelius guys had.
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt) www.pianoped.comwww.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed
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So what does this mean exactly?
I'm a relatively avid user of Sibelius 6, but I've never heard about this issue before.
Does the firing of this Daniel person mean that the company will be closing altogether. What problems will this cause exactly? No more new sibelius updates in the future? No Sibelius 8? It looks like they're getting rid of the development team which has developed Sibelius for all of these years, and planning to outsource the coding to people who have no idea of all the ins and outs of how this huge program is coded. Basically the're erasing their institutional memory.
Last edited by tangleweeds; 07/20/12 12:55 AM.
Please step aside. You're standing in your own way.
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Actually you can customize Sibelius too (from the Layout option), but yes, if you refer to the default settings Sibelius is more "normal". However I don't have the latest version of Finale, and not even the latest version of Sibelius, as I prefer 6 to 7, at least on my relatively small screen (I use a laptop).
Music is my best friend.
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So what does this mean exactly?
Like Kreisler said, nobody knows. But I "know" Daniel. I went and bought Sib 7 as a crossgrade from Finale (as I suggested to Steve) and I had various issues. Daniel took it to his heart to help out: He requested that I sent him the files I had trouble, confirmed my findings, offered a great solution (I can't mention this in public, but I'll just say that sibelius can 'backsave' to previous versions) and after a few weeks came up with a new update for Sib 7 which resolved the matter. All for free and with great expense of his time! I will say that this is one of the few times that customer services surpasses my expectations (the other being Andrew K. from LASS, but that's another matter, and Niclas from Pianoteq, who is an awesome guy!)! Makemusic and Finale customer services is awful as it stands, and it's not like they have more users than Sibelius! So I think that Daniel, apart from being the head of the team, and a great guy, he's also the body, the spirit and the soul of Sibelius right now and for a long time now! Take that away and you're stuck with a body-less, soul-less, spirit-less, head-less corpse called Sibelius! _________________________ Just check the pro-tools case: Once a brilliant program, now everyone loves to hate the lack of development. In fact check Logic as well: Once a brilliant program, now there's no development, even if it's now a part of Apple itself! One of the few software that have survived, thus far, the transition to a bigger company is Steinberg (Cubase) which was sold a few years ago to Yamaha!
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Actually you can customize Sibelius too (from the Layout option), but yes, if you refer to the default settings Sibelius is more "normal". However I don't have the latest version of Finale, and not even the latest version of Sibelius, as I prefer 6 to 7, at least on my relatively small screen (I use a laptop). Yes, that's not fully what I mean (if you're refering to what I said about layouts, etc). Sibelius offers EVERYTHING ready. Wavy lines, cluster lines, little hands, percussion signs, buttons, various length dashed lines, various thickness lines, etc... All these things I create alone in Finale, which gives me ultimate control. It's harder, but my scores don't look like Sibelius (as is actually evident from another thread), and it's not only the font that makes a difference.
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I think the summary that ends that proposal letter is pretty interesting. "As we stated above, we believe that MMUS requires significant intervention now for the following reasons:
· significant leadership changes - MMUS has had four CEOs in the last four years and now has to recruit a fifth CEO. Not only is this expensive and time consuming, it is very disruptive to the organization and to the company’s relationship and standing with industry partners.
· significant development costs ahead - we believe that the source code base of Finale and the other notation products is near end of life and significant financial resources are necessary to update and refresh the notation product line. A review of recent quarterly financial reports makes clear that the company’s expenses are rising while its balance sheet is contracting. This suggests a period of heavy investment ahead.
· significant revenue decrease in 2012 and beyond appears likely for the following reasons -
--- we believe that the current Finale product release will be a partial upgrade versus the typical annual refresh and re-release cycle, which would generate higher revenues.
--- SmartMusic subscription growth has stalled while spending on its development and marketing continue to rise. We believe that shareholders have much higher expectations for SmartMusic subscriber levels and are disappointed with this stagnation.
--- the largest print music publisher, Hal Leonard Corporation (“HLCâ€), announced in late 2011 its entry into the digital music publishing, education and performance evaluation software market with its Essential Elements Interactive platform. We understand that HLC is using a more modern software platform. We believe this is a direct competitive threat to MMUS’s SmartMusic product suite and it will come from the largest industry participant that is also a significant contributor of content for SmartMusic. If MMUS cannot access quality content from HLC, SmartMusic’s allure in the marketplace is likely to be seriously damaged and the company may face increased repertoire development costs from other sources."I had no idea their executive turnover had been so dramatic - not a good sign. I'm also surprised at the offer price - I thought they were a larger company. I did get an email from them not long ago saying they weren't doing the usual revision this year. What an odd coincidence that both of the major notation programs are finding themselves in turmoil simultaneously.
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I had no idea their executive turnover had been so dramatic - not a good sign. I'm also surprised at the offer price - I thought they were a larger company. I did get an email from them not long ago saying they weren't doing the usual revision this year. What an odd coincidence that both of the major notation programs are finding themselves in turmoil simultaneously. I'd say that this is scary, at least for me... :-/
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It would seem the software notation market has more than a few issues. One that doesn't get mentioned too often is that most users do not upgrade annually. I'm using Finale 2009 and until I feel the improvements are significant enough to warrant upgrading I won't. It feels like the software is fairly mature, but perhaps that's just a sign that a major overhaul is necessary.
If Finale were to address the issue of its defaults that would be sufficient to get me to upgrade. The labor saving potential would be significant. Instead they add nice sounds, the Garritan library is nice and a big improvement over the previous sound library, and that's why I bought 2009. It does seem to me that Finale is disengaged from their users and doesn't have a clue what we value.
Nikolas, I've thought about the crossgrade to Sibelius. The cost is just one of the issues. Finale is the Devil I know. While Sibelius isn't dead yet the current signs are not positive.
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It's not unheard-of for a company to buy up a competitor simply to get rid of it. And if they can't get in the front door, they will come in the back door--- actually, this is just another way of saying the same thing, isn't it.
I wonder if it can be determined in whose interest it would be, to set fire to both Sibelius and Finale? It can be just a simple matter of envy.
Last edited by Jeff Clef; 07/20/12 11:50 AM.
Clef
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One wonders if this means a door is open for others. Notion has always looked promising, especially given the fact it beat Sibelius and Finale to the iPad market: http://www.notionmusic.com/Or maybe MuseScore will gain ground amongst professional engravers: http://musescore.org/And then there's Lilypond. It already makes beautiful scores, and if someone can come up with a solid front-end, it might really catch on. There's a fair amount of interesting and work being done in this area also: http://www.denemo.org/AboutIn the meanwhile, I'm happy with Sibelius and will remain a loyal user for the foreseeable future.
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt) www.pianoped.comwww.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed
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There's also Noteflight: http://www.noteflight.com/I loved their online editor when I tried it a few months ago and seriously considered switching, but I ended up sticking with Sibelius.
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There are indeed many issues. Apart from not upgrading every year, free programs on the market etc. a major problem is also piracy. (Or has it already been mentioned?)
Music is my best friend.
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It's not unheard-of for a company to buy up a competitor simply to get rid of it. And if they can't get in the front door, they will come in the back door--- actually, this is just another way of saying the same thing, isn't it.
I wonder if it can be determined in whose interest it would be, to set fire to both Sibelius and Finale? It can be just a simple matter of envy. For anyone wanting to mull over and maybe do further research on the the MakeMusic (Finale) takeover bid and who the players are, here are links to the documentation filed with the SEC. Of course, this is just the most visible piece of the puzzle - who knows exactly what is going on, that the company would be going through CEOs so fast? It seems something must be very wrong for that to happen. At the very least, it looks the board of directors doesn't know how to do its job.
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For me Finale has something wrong for plenty of years... THe yearly upgrades are pretty much worthless, like Steve says. If I hadn't switched to a win7 machine, I would have stayed with Finale 2009 myself! So the whole movement of the company, is nothing like Sibelius and doesn't work like I would expect any serious company to...
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(And I should confess that Finale 2009 (or 2010?) has parts of 16-bit code in it, which meant that it would NEVER see my 6 GBs or RAM and I had to manually remove the 4 in order for it to see the proper RAM and install! Funny stuff...)
I shouldn't be defending Finale, since it has caused me all sorts of frustration over the years, but I have so say that many programs and pieces of hardware run into problems as operating systems and technology evolve. When I got a new machine with 64-bit Win7, for example, I had to get a new monitor AND a new DSL modem, even though my old ones were working quite nicely with my previous computer. And several older programs were just left in the dust. Finale 2010 was one program that didn't cause any problems - even the unauthorization and reauthorization process to transfer it from the old computer worked just fine (the new machine has 8 GB of RAM). But it still has a bunch of sucky aspects along with the good stuff. Just trying to use the documentation makes me crazy almost every time - it is like there is some kind of counter-intuitive streak of perversity running through it that's a mile wide. Not to mention a lot of flat-out errors. I am guessing, now that I know the company isn't really all that big, that they never really invested their resources in a top-notch documentation team that a program that complex needs.
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Last I checked, Noteflight didn't have much in terms of layout - no graphics import/export, font selection, staff sizes, etc... It's a neat tool for education, but just isn't up to the task of serious engraving. There's also Noteflight: http://www.noteflight.com/I loved their online editor when I tried it a few months ago and seriously considered switching, but I ended up sticking with Sibelius.
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt) www.pianoped.comwww.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed
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Update - looks like the former Sibelius staff has has been hired by Steinberg.
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Yes they have! And though I don't particularly care for Steinberg either (especially since they're owned by Yamaha), I can tell that this is the best possible happy ending in this saga!  Now Avid can go kiss their butt all they want! bouahahaha! And Steinberg pulled a very tricky move to Avid (which is NOT doing ok in any department btw)...
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Working in a school district means I get to try out a lot of different software, and I've tried both Sibelius and Finale. Personally, I just couldn't figure out Sibelius. The user interface just killed me. I tried Finale and ended up purchasing it (educational discount - the only reason I purchased it, otherwise it's too expensive). I do have to say I agree with their decision to stop the yearly new version cycle since there was hardly any real changes to the 'new' versions, they were mostly minor updates. The new cycle of coming out with a new version every two years should be a good thing as people will probably be more inclined to pay for actual version changes instead of minor upgrades. That all having been said, I'd hate to see Sibelius go away. I personally don't care which program a person uses to write music with, as long as everyone has something they can use that is user friendly for them. The more products out there means more people can find what they need, what works for them, so great music can be written and shared. Just don’t let Apple buy it!! They’ll figure out some way to make sure that everything that’s written with it will belong to them!!
"Music is something so innocent and pure, it makes a person completely naked - in music you cannot lie." - Alice Sara Ott
Playing since December 6, 2011.
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Yes they have! And though I don't particularly care for Steinberg either (especially since they're owned by Yamaha), I can tell that this is the best possible happy ending in this saga! Now Avid can go kiss their butt all they want! bouahahaha! And Steinberg pulled a very tricky move to Avid (which is NOT doing ok in any department btw)... Ownership by Yamaha doesn't seem to have hurt Bosendorfer. I'd say this is a good thing, Yamaha's deep pockets will keep Sibelius alive for the foreseeable future. Yes, Avid has been sucking pond water since Bill Warner left. They seem to be retrenching now to focus on core competencies. The only question is will they also sell off ProTools?
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Joined: Nov 2007
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Ownership by Yamaha doesn't seem to have hurt Bosendorfer. I'd say this is a good thing, Yamaha's deep pockets will keep Sibelius alive for the foreseeable future.
AFAIK, Steinberg/Yamaha didn't buy Sibelius. They just hired the former staff that had been fired by Avid. Apparently they are going develop new notation software. So the future of Sibelius itself is still pretty murky.
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Ownership by Yamaha doesn't seem to have hurt Bosendorfer. I'd say this is a good thing, Yamaha's deep pockets will keep Sibelius alive for the foreseeable future.
AFAIK, Steinberg/Yamaha didn't buy Sibelius. They just hired the former staff that had been fired by Avid. Apparently they are going develop new notation software. So the future of Sibelius itself is still pretty murky. Exactly! And that's the word out in the street. Which is going to be difficult with all the patents going with Sibelius, Daniel and the rest of the team will need to develop new ways and new code which is going to be extra tricky... Or if they could base it off the Cubase score editor, but it sucks real time!
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