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Steven: Huneker made lots of curious statements. I tend to take most of what he says with a cellar of salt.

You're absolutely right: the Sonata wasn't published until 1851, so Huneker is getting his chronology confused.

The story of the publication of the Sonata is interesting, actually. Chopin first tried to have it published in 1828 in Leipzig (we don't know with what publisher), and then again in 1830 with Haslinger in Vienna. Nothing happened, which irritated Chopin. We next read about it in his correspondence in 1839, when Chopin reports a rumor from his father that Haslinger had published the Sonata. Another letter in 1841 implies that Haslinger contacted Chopin about publishing the Sonata; and four years later he reported that Haslinger had sent him printed proofs of the Sonata. It's clear from the plate number of the Haslinger edition that the Viennese firm actually prepared the piece for publication in late 1840, but then withheld it for publication until after Chopin's death.

Jeff

Steven and Mark: I haven't found much evidence of curiosity about the gap in opus numbers. These kinds of gaps were not all that unusual among composers of the time, and could occur for all kinds of reasons (including lack of attention by publishers). Since not terribly much attention was paid in his lifetime to the works Chopin published before he arrived in Paris (with the exception of op. 2, that is), it isn't surprising that there's no evidence of a fuss over the missing opus 4.

There's even better evidence of lack of concern for a later piece. The opus number for the Preludes (28) is out of sequence. Chopin originally intended it for a four-hand sonata that he (apparently) never finished (though I've made the argument that it is possible that the funeral march goes back to this 4-hand sonata): he offered it for sale to Breitkopf & Hartel in Leipzig in 1835 (together with opp. 22-27). Between 1836 and the eventual publication of the Preludes in 1839, no one noticed the missing opus 28 between the publication of the Nocturnes, op. 27 and the Impromptu, op. 29.

Jeff

YOU WILL INDEED!

Interesting.....I never knew that gaps in opus numbers were all that common -- mean for an extended period of time, as was apparently the case for Opus 4.

I agree that there's no reason to wonder if there would have been wonderment over the missing Op. 4 right at time, but SOON THEREAFTER could have been a different story, because, as I understand, it wasn't long before he was very much of note.

BTW.....Another (and famous) example of the out-of-sequence opus numbers is CHOPIN'S CONCERTOS. I don't know the dates but I do know that the "2nd" (Op. 21) was written before the "1st" (Op. 11).
IMO there's an additional level of interest to this because #2 really does seem like a more mature work, and so, except for the fact that we knew the actual sequence for a fact (and I THINK we do), we'd never suspect that anything was out-of-order.

"I have a wonderful bust of Chopin, in bronze... I would post a photo but still haven't figured out how to do it here. It used to be easy."

A two-step process, Kathleen. (1) upload the file to PW. This is the link; fill in the fields and show it which file to send:

http://www.pianoworld.com/Uploads/fileuploader2.html

PW will send you an e-mail with filename on the server. You can cut-and-paste the entire name from it and, using the Full Reply screen, click on the Enter an Image icon. Paste the filename in. That's it. It will be in your post.

Yes, it's a bit cumbersome, but not actually hard.

I do agree, and I've always thought this, too. I perceive the influence of Hummel (and therefore of Mozart) much more strongly in Op. 11; it seems rather Classical in character, whereas Op. 21 has a more lush and forward-leaning feel.

Steven

I didn't know about the lack of an Op. 4 until after the composer's death. Fascinating.

Concerto #1 has a relatively lush and heavy orchestration compared to #2, and does seem like a more mature and finished work, despite the great delights of #2 (which I wouldn't want to live without). I was under the impression that Fryc was told he ought to give the orchestra more to do after writing #2. Would that be correct?

Mark, best wishes to you in the contest too. I admire all of you who can even consider entering a contest like that.

Elene

Yes -- Hummel seems right-on for the E minor concerto.
And what would be a similarly right-on mention for the F minor?
NOTHING, I think, or not much.

BTW.....Huneker got mentioned up there. A funny thing about him: he would sometimes indicate about particular Chopin works that they reminded him of other composers, always (I think) with an impression that he was giving a compliment to Chopin. When I first read that stuff, and I had never heard of most of those other composers, I assumed that they must have been GREATER than Chopin. I was very surprised to learn, bit by bit, that some of these other composers of whom Huneker seemed so excited to find hints in Chopin were nothing compared to him. Example: MEYERBEER.

I also remember that Huneker would sometimes summarily dismiss some works of Chopin as being lousy, including the last movement of the B minor sonata.

Thanks for the welcome and for the wishes, Elene!
BTW......what's the picture in your sig?

Omigod.......I've only been here for 1 day and I see that I have >70 posts.
I think that officially make me an addict too.

I think Chopin was trying to be more "normal" with the E minor concerto.

Please, nobody pay too much attention to James Huneker. Even if you can get past the turgid early 20th-century writing style, you'll find he doesn't really say much of anything.

Mark, my angel picture is the Stevenson memorial angel by Abbot Handerson Thayer. I love Thayer's angels, and this image has a particular meaning connected with my work as a healer, but mostly I've put her here as a sort of private joke, because she looks so amazingly like Mme Potocka.

Elene

This morning Performance Today featured a rendition of the C# minor Nocturne/Lento con gran espressione on a copy of an 1820 fortepiano. You can hear it here:

http://performancetoday.publicradio.org/

The instrument is very plinky in its upper register, as one would expect. It seemed to me that the pianist played with a stiff, inelastic mechanism and got a harsher sound than I would have liked, but I'm not certain what to expect of this instrument and can't judge well. I liked the interpretation very much otherwise.

The performance took place at the international Chopin festival in Warsaw, where, as Fred Child (the host) noted, they take their Chopin very seriously.

Elene

LOL about Huneker.......although I realize you weren't joking.
I actually ENJOY his stuff quite a bit, really because of that "turgid early 20th c. writing style" ......but I don't disagree with what you said. Even though I did buy his Chopin book -- can't help it, when it comes to Chopin I'm sort of a "collector."

Thanks for the info about the picture. I have to admit that I have NO IDEA who "Mme Potocka" is, but I'll check right after posting this.
BTW I'm a healer too, although probably a somewhat less interesting kind than you are.

[returns from research......] Huh........I guess I need to be more of a Chopin collector.
Y'know, I did have sort of a feeling it had to do with Chopin (d'oh!) and I think I heard somebody saying something-or-other about her during the Chopin competition this September.

from Wiki: "......a friend and muse to noted Polish expatriate artists Frédéric Chopin and Zygmunt Krasiński."

Picture of Mme Potocka:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Delfina_Potocka_4.jpg
Strong resemblance indeed!!

Rather delicately put - - -

.....I think I'm getting the picture..... :-)

Hi, I'm new here so I might as well introduce myself at this topic, after all, I am a Chopin lover.

I started playing the piano exactly one year ago. I'm from Finland and my teacher who has been teaching me ever since last November is Russian. She is quite demanding and very conservative (as Russians are when it comes to arts like these). Every lesson starts with scales and scales and.. scales. She says I should master all the scales perfectly and that's why I play them every day. But she keeps me motivated and I'm learning. I've played the piano for approximately 300h now.

About a month ago I managed to nail Chopins prelude number 4 in a quite satisfying way. My teacher thinks I'm now done with it and I should move on. My ultimate goal is to learn the Nocturne in sharp C-minor. Does anyone know how long it takes to learn the Nocturne for someone at my level right now?

Hello MarkCannon: I also enjoy reading Huneker because it is obvious that he was a huge fan of Chopin's. But as Jeff stated, I take him with a ton of salt, pretty much as I take so many other biographers. And I also wish you good luck.

Hi Curious223 and welcome.

To answer your question about that nocturne...wow, it is graded as an 8+, which is truly very difficult. I know how you feel when you hear a certain piece by Chopin and you want to play it. But this one takes loads of practice and calls for a lot of technique, especially in the left hand. Perhaps you could learn a few more of the preludes now (#6, #7,#9, #20 and continue with your scales (a good idea, by the way). Someday, with all the motivation I sense from you, you will be at that point when you could attempt in C#m. Don't be in a hurry to learn a piece that you are not ready for because it could only lead to some physical problems along with tons of frustration. I speak from experience.

Good luck to you and let us know how you are doing.

Cleff: Thank you for giving me those instructions in such wonderful detail. I appreciate it. Now I have to try to find some pictures that I would like to show.

Kathleen

Are you two talking about the same nocturne? My impression was that Curious223 was talking about the posthumous C# min nocturne, which I didn't think was terribly difficult (certainly not 8+). But I'm not sure.

Even still, I couldn't reliably answer the question of how long it "should" take for someone with one year's experience to learn this piece; by the time I learned it, I had several years (divided) under my belt, and while it was within my grasp on a technical level, there were still challenges in interpretation. It took me at least a few months to get it memorized and fluent. Curious223, just give it a try- but you might want to consult your teacher as to your readiness.

I agree about Huneker being taken with a grain of salt (if not a larger quantity ), though his prefaces in the Schirmer editions of Chopin have long represented to me a paradigm of the baroque writing style of his era.

Huneker penned the detailed obituary of Rafael Joseffy that was published in the New York Times on July 4, 1915. It's fascinating and beautiful—as much for the archaic graphic elements as for the author's predictably quirky way with words:

Joseffy obituary in pdf form

Steven

p.s. Eleanor Bailie ranks the posthumous Nocturne in c-sharp minor as Grade 7.