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#1930590 - 07/22/12 09:11 AM Re: New(ish) AvantGrand video [Re: EssBrace]
ClsscLib Online   content

Platinum Supporter until Jan 02 2013


Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 1835
Loc: Northern VA, U.S.
Originally Posted By: EssBrace
Originally Posted By: dewster
Knowing Yamaha, even if they went to $2 million it would still be looped and wouldn't play off the jack. And they would never tell you anything technical about it, so even if you bought one and were kind of happy with it, you'd end up back here at PW speculating wildly with the rest of us.


So cynical!

Dewster, how old were you when you figured out Father Christmas didn't exist? I can picture you now - three years old sitting bolt upright in bed....


It's early, but this is the post of the day so far.
_________________________


"People may say I can't sing, but no one can ever say I didn't sing."

-- Florence Foster Jenkins

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#1930593 - 07/22/12 09:17 AM Re: New(ish) AvantGrand video [Re: EssBrace]
kippesc Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 407
Loc: United States
Originally Posted By: EssBrace
Why can't you just let Yamaha enrich our lives with their special kind of fairy dust? It would spoil it if we knew how they did it....

How true. I'm still coming to grips with those popsicle stick sidewalls they put on the those plastic NW keys.

Edit: For those new to PW, here's what I'm talking about
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1830168.html


Edited by kippesc (07/22/12 10:07 AM)
_________________________
Steinway B
Yamaha AvantGrand N2
Roland RD-700NX

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#1930598 - 07/22/12 09:29 AM Re: New(ish) AvantGrand video [Re: Melodialworks Music]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3707
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: Melodialworks Music
Originally Posted By: dewster
Originally Posted By: Melodialworks Music
It actually doesn't really matter what piano the action is based on. The fact is that it is a HYBRID action.

HYBRID or not, it actually does matter what piano the action is based on because this sets the mechanical advantage variation over the playing surface.


You're missing the point. I'll try again. It's a MODIFIED action.


The only thing being challenged here is the key-length and whether it can be legitimately called a "concert" action like it is in the promotional video. It clearly isn't a concert action. It's a decent action - it's similar to the action in a small grand. As Dewster correctly points out, the touch across the entire key area is not as good as a concert action - that's why they shouldn't be calling it a concert action. They should absolutely say it's a good acoustic action though. No problem with that.

Same deal with the unknown internal MIDI resolution - just stick to the facts. There's nothing to be gained by using apocryphal claims about high-res MIDI or concert actions. I'm a big fan of Yamaha as a company overall - but I don't like these fuzzy facts that make their way into their promotions. A product should publish its specifications and let the product do the rest of the talking.

For the record, I have nothing against the AG itself.

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#1930599 - 07/22/12 09:37 AM Re: New(ish) AvantGrand video [Re: dewster]
sullivang Online   blank
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2232
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Originally Posted By: dewster

Have Hall Effect sensors under each key to detect key position and return velocity (ala the VAX77). Use these to alert the processor to preload the attack sample of the keys that are starting to be depressed, then play the note with the amplitude from the piezo.


Even in a standard disk streaming software sampler, all attacks are pre-loaded in memory. If you mean to perform some other kind of initialisation, I'm struggling to think what could be done before the velocity is known. We don't know what sample layer to use, and we don't know how to configure any layer blending processing, and we don't know how to initialise an envelope generator, if one is required. Mind you, the latency penalty, if there is one, might be so tiny as to be inconsequential. I assume the audio output buffering would be highly optimised.

Greg.

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#1930631 - 07/22/12 11:10 AM Re: New(ish) AvantGrand video [Re: EssBrace]
dewster Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4366
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: EssBrace
Why can't you just let Yamaha enrich our lives with their special kind of fairy dust? It would spoil it if we knew how they did it....

[Guys in the Yamaha marketing department who keep an eagle eye on PW AG posts]

SCORE!!!

[whereupon much jumping up and enthusiastic high fiving of each other ensues]


(Just kidding Steve, as you probably are wink )
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THE RD-700NX Thread!
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#1930648 - 07/22/12 11:40 AM Re: New(ish) AvantGrand video [Re: EssBrace]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3901
Loc: North Carolina
So ...

dewster: Knowing Yamaha, even if they went to $2 million it would still be looped and wouldn't play off the jack. And they would never tell you anything technical about it, so even if you bought one and were kind of happy with it, you'd end up back here at PW speculating wildly with the rest of us.
(Translation: They're full of crap, the lousy bastards!)

Essbrace: Why can't you just let Yamaha enrich our lives with their special kind of fairy dust? It would spoil it if we knew how they did it...
(Translation: Let's enjoy the mud bath.)

I have a different view.
My take: Ignore sales pitches, promotional material, and all other hype.

Sample promotional material:
Quote:
SPECIALIZED GRAND PIANO ACTION AND PIANO KEYBOARD
The nuanced touch and response of the grand piano are an essential standard yardstick for piano quality. It offers the player a specially-developed grand piano action that features the same configuration as the action of a real grand. The hammers strike the "strings" from underneath, allowing minute adjustments to the weight distribution of the hammers, and to the movement of the hammers themselves, for a smoother feel when playing. In addition to a hammer sensor, this instrument employs a non-contact key sensor that has no effect on the movement of the keys, affording excellent recognition of the player's pressure on the keyboard, timing, and the other delicate nuances that affect musical expression. This combination provides an impressive sensitivity for the entire range from pianissimo through to fortissimo, and the ability to translate even the swiftest trills of the pianist with transparency. The wood construction of the keyboard mirrors that of the grand piano, and features New Ivory II on the white keys. This is a unique material developed by Yamaha, with a texture superbly close to that of natural ivory, allowing you to play swift passages with ease while also offering a sure response for slower pieces.

SPATIAL ACOUSTIC SAMPLING
Together with a variety of piano sounds, this instrument features samples of the actual vibrations from within the soundboard of the instrument. To permit the sound to travel well to the player's position, as it does with a grand piano, we sampled the sound from four locations in the left, right, center, and rear of a grand piano. Sampling from deeper inside the instrument, we were able reproduce the attraction of the original sound almost perfectly. It was the experience of our engineers, and a reiterative cycle of trial and error conducted with piano tuners that made this success possible. And of course, the samples in this instrument are all taken from a specially-selected example of Yamaha's CFIIIS full concert grand piano.

SPATIAL ACOUSTIC SPEAKER SYSTEM
Opening the lid of the instrument reveals 4 speakers in an impressive and attractive layout. This instrument utilizes a four-channel multi-speaker system, designed in a three-way configuration with the bass woofer pointed down and the treble cones facing up, to allow more natural reverberation in the soundboard. Each of the speakers in this layout is equipped with its own dedicated amplifier, a luxury that reduces the interference in each pitch range and offers more natural expression to the delicate nuances in each sound. Moreover, by using speaker positioning that mimics the positions in the grand piano from which the original samples were taken, it offers a more natural sound to the pianist.

SOUNDBOARD RESONATOR
In addition to the four-channel multi-speakers, the N3 also features a flat-panel "Soundboard Resonator" where the music rest would be when laid flat, allowing a more subtle reproduction of the buildup of sound felt by pianists when playing a grand piano. An oscillator called a "transducer" transmits vibration to the flat-panel soundboard, giving a realistic sound response that is especially evident in the higher range.

TACTILE RESPONSE SYSTEM
The sound of an acoustic piano resonates throughout its entire body. The bass range in particular is an essential part of the reverberation that is continually transmitted to a player's body. This is replicated by our newly-developed Tactile Response System (TRS) that focuses on reproducing reverberation. This system features two transducers in the soundboard, the area underneath the keyboard, resonating natural reverberation throughout the entire instrument. The player's hands on the keyboard transmit the natural sound felt from the feet as they depress the pedals; the epitome of real piano playing. This system can be turned on and off, and the vibration set to one of three levels.

SPECIALIZED GRAND PIANO PEDAL
Light to the touch at first, subtle firmness partway through its travel, and lightening again as the player pushes further; the pedals of the grand piano have subtly different stages than can be felt when the pedal is depressed. Skilled players take advantage of these pedal movements by using extremely delicate pedaling that allows them to achieve finely nuanced expression in their play. In developing this instrument, we set out to reproduce the sensations of a grand piano's pedals as faithfully as possible. The resulting pedal allows for music as you believe it should sound, equally responsive for more impressionistic pieces that require a lot of half-pedaling.

Translation: Yamaha has an AG N3 model for sale. No other reliable information is available.

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#1930659 - 07/22/12 12:00 PM Re: New(ish) AvantGrand video [Re: EssBrace]
toddy Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 1863
Loc: Portugal
Yes. Reading those promotional leaflets is like having a long warm bath with Cussons Imperial Leather or Pears Coal Tar soap.

All very nice if you're in the mood but a complete waste of time.
_________________________
Roland HP 302, Yamaha SY85

Reaper / NI Komplete 9 /Kontakt 5// EWQL Sym Choirs/ Sym Orchestra Silver/ MOR2
Mics: SP B1 & MXL V67g/ Alesis MicTube Preamp/ Xenyx302/ Yamaha HS7s .

"Only a fool is fooled" pv88, All Fools' Day 2014.

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#1930664 - 07/22/12 12:12 PM Re: New(ish) AvantGrand video [Re: dewster]
EssBrace Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2426
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
Originally Posted By: dewster
(Just kidding Steve, as you probably are wink )


Ha ha, yes I was kidding alright! They made a conscious decision at some point didn't they? Not just Yamaha. I think they pretty much all decided to cease giving out FACTS. It's not that there isn't a grain of truth in what they say in their marketing stuff, there probably usually is. But it is dressed up in the language of sales, not technical language. Not many years ago all of the manufacturers used to declare the sample ROM size but that rarely happens now.

I wonder if this nonsense will infiltrate other technical products (no doubt it's already happening to some degree).

I imagine a conversation between a professional in procurement for a hospital talking to the sales rep of the maker of a diagnostic machine...

Buyer: "So, er, what resolution will we get with this scanner?"
Seller: "Oh lots. It's got really good resolution. The best we've ever done."
Buyer: "Well, what is it then?"
Seller: "Eh? well, it's better than the last model. A very significant improvement I can assure you. You'll see those tumours in magnificent technicolour. In 3D too. Probably."
Buyer: "So, what is the resolution then?"
Seller: "It's a game changer. You can even dim the display for use at night, like on a Sat-Nav. And it pipes music through loads of speakers. It's the last scanner you'll ever have to buy. Until the next one comes out."
Buyer: "How many speakers?"
Seller: "Loads. More than the last one."
Buyer: "Can't you just tell me about the resolution? We need to know so we can compare your scanner to a couple of others."
Seller: "Did I mention that we've got 0% finance and we can give you cash back on your old one? And we've got a range of new finishes. The only "free" colour is the colour of a baby's first sh*t. But polished ebony is only a few grand more. So like I said, it's a game changer."
_________________________
Yamaha CP1

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#1930699 - 07/22/12 01:13 PM Re: New(ish) AvantGrand video [Re: EssBrace]
KLSinCT Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/07/12
Posts: 148
Loc: Stonington, CT USA
Originally Posted By: EssBrace
Originally Posted By: dewster
Knowing Yamaha, even if they went to $2 million it would still be looped and wouldn't play off the jack. And they would never tell you anything technical about it, so even if you bought one and were kind of happy with it, you'd end up back here at PW speculating wildly with the rest of us.


So cynical!

Dewster, how old were you when you figured out Father Christmas didn't exist? I can picture you now - three years old sitting bolt upright in bed as your parents sneak into your room at midnight to dump a pillow case full of presents at the foot of the bed...

Infant Dewster: "I knew it! You complete frauds! I laid it on the line to you two time and time again, show me EVIDENCE of Santa! All that nonsense about behaving myself all year for Santa Claus. And don't try leaving money under my pillow when my teeth start falling out, I've already worked that one out!"

Why can't you just let Yamaha enrich our lives with their special kind of fairy dust? It would spoil it if we knew how they did it....


ROFLMAO!!!!!!! laugh

K.
_________________________
Kevin L. Spindler
Early Keyboard Instruments
Stonington, CT
Harpsichords & Clavichords
Custom Instruments Built to Order
Rebuilding, Repair & Restoration
http://www.facebook.com/kevin.spindler.129

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#1930709 - 07/22/12 01:54 PM Re: New(ish) AvantGrand video [Re: EssBrace]
kippesc Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 407
Loc: United States
I've been staring at this picture all morning (simply because I haven't closed my browser) while monitoring this thread. I'm going to re-post this picture because, for me, it marks the nadir of DP marketing dissembling (wait, maybe I mean "zenith").



(That's the inside of a CP1, which has nothing to do with an AG, but it does relate to the topic of Yamaha marketing. Just to be clear.)

Okay. I've gotten it out of my system. Now back to my project to precisely tweak Pianoteq to sound like my AP. ;-)


Edited by kippesc (07/22/12 01:59 PM)
_________________________
Steinway B
Yamaha AvantGrand N2
Roland RD-700NX

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#1930715 - 07/22/12 02:04 PM Re: New(ish) AvantGrand video [Re: EssBrace]
EssBrace Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2426
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
It's shocking isn't it?! The CP1 key I mean. It reflects badly on Yamaha but it's more an indictment of the "machine" made by the marketing people. They tell us wood is better. We want wooden keys. Yamaha gives us wooden keys....
_________________________
Yamaha CP1

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#1930751 - 07/22/12 03:06 PM Re: New(ish) AvantGrand video [Re: EssBrace]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3901
Loc: North Carolina
Don't fret. The wood paneling is just for appearance.

Even if the key were solid wood it would make no difference. The key is only about five inches long. So, whether wood or plastic, all that matters is the total mass.

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#1930766 - 07/22/12 03:30 PM Re: New(ish) AvantGrand video [Re: EssBrace]
kippesc Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 407
Loc: United States
I agree. It's more stable and precise, not using wood, especially on gigging instruments.
_________________________
Steinway B
Yamaha AvantGrand N2
Roland RD-700NX

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#1930878 - 07/22/12 06:59 PM Re: New(ish) AvantGrand video [Re: kippesc]
36251 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/12/10
Posts: 765
Originally Posted By: kippesc
I've been staring at this picture all morning (simply because I haven't closed my browser) while monitoring this thread. I'm going to re-post this picture because, for me, it marks the nadir of DP marketing dissembling (wait, maybe I mean "zenith").



(That's the inside of a CP1, which has nothing to do with an AG, but it does relate to the topic of Yamaha marketing. Just to be clear.)

Okay. I've gotten it out of my system. Now back to my project to precisely tweak Pianoteq to sound like my AP. ;-)
I thought that the wood keys on DP actions would make the bottom-out feel a little softer. Seeing this would seem to tell me the wood is only there to make the key heavier? I wouldn't be too happy if I owned a CP1 or CP5 and have to move those beasts and the keys weren't even all wood. That pic adds another sub-group of Hybrid.

My other request would be to see other DPs like the Kawai that comes with wood keys. Are they all wood?
_________________________
AG N2, CP4, GK MK & MP

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#1930890 - 07/22/12 07:22 PM Re: New(ish) AvantGrand video [Re: 36251]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9680
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: 36251
My other request would be to see other DPs like the Kawai that comes with wood keys. Are they all wood?


Yes.
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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