Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Forum 10 year old statement about Chinese pianos

Gee Norbert, That sounds so severe! Pilfering your California,Washington state or Mexican fruit & vegetable selections! Here, I thought that the male Canadian border guards and female US border guards would be dueting "Indian Love Call" over and over! Shows I never got further North than upstate NY!

Fully agreed, if only...

By the way, next morning, after we had consumed the wonderful California lettuce, apples and avocados we tried one more time to cross.

Tata - never forget the feeling no longer being considered an enemy of the state..

Not quite finished with our experience the day before I told the female border guard: "better find what I have hidden in the camper: welcome to keep it if you like..."

After few minutes probing she gave up knowing full well I was only teasing her. But then she wanted to know.

I showed her my toothbrush.

Offer declined.

Norbert

Not a chance.

And why not? (Of course you have to define that "affordable" part.)

ddf

Not in this lifetime. Unions, healthcare, corporate taxes, workers compensation laws......we will be lucky to be able to make snowmen in this country.

Kirtmen,

Although most of these are, as you say, facts of the industry, they are facts of the marketplace, not of construction methods, materials, execution, or the end result. Reputations, both good and bad, have a habit of outlasting reality. It is certainly feasible that in the never-ending search for engineered cost savings and cheap labor, ostensibly 'Japanese' pianos may slip a notch or two in the quality of their reality while the reality of some Chinese brands begins to outdistance their reputations.

I'm not implying that it has happened, but when Kawai begins to offer its European retailers a choice of K3's, one built in Indonesia and one 'built' in Japan, and offer the former at a discount to the latter as a sweetener, one begins to sense that more is in play than preserving a reputation built on national pride.

Nonetheless, I think you capture the business reality of Chinese piano manufacture and manufacture in general.

Is there enough consumers’ confidence to pay the price for a high-quality piano made in China?

Not at this time certainly. The Chinese know that it would be a tough sell both on the home market and the export market to take on the competition without a cost/value play. Reputations change slowly and incrementally. No sense in letting manufacture get too far ahead of that.

Is it worth for piano dealers to pay extra for a better Chinese piano?

Probably not. My guess is that even enthusiastic Chinese piano retailers like Nick and Norb realize that at a certain price point, the higher flooring cost combined with customer resistance to price parity for a Chinese product would make that proposition unattractive.

Personally, I don't think China is particularly concerned if its emerging middle and upper classes crave and buy luxury imports. In a socio-economic macro sense, it's far more important to keep the basic commodities of life flowing through domestic manufacturing channels than it is to discourage the purchase of luxury imports. That approach not only provides the home market with affordable products of slowly increasing quality, but creates far more jobs that the manufacture of so-called 'handmade' high ticket exclusives. China desperately needs those jobs, as the massive transition from an agrarian economy to a manufacturing one still presents a world of problems.

When you as a nation need to worry is when you can't make, sell, or buy shoes, underwear, toaster ovens, or technology that are home-grown because almost all of your former domestic manufacturers have gone into hiding in Chinese factories.

Hmmmm. That sounds vaguely familiar.


BTW, Kurtmen, not that it's any consolation, but your English is a damned sight better than my German.

For sure.

As for quality, if foreign companies specify that their Chinese suppliers produce cheap crap, that's what the Chinese will produce. To think that's all the Chinese can do is a mistake, IMHO. As del pointed out "made in Japan" used to be a joke.

I suppose I should add something to this thread since I was mentioned in a previous post as "enthusiastic Chinese piano retailer" [Please note, I feel this strictly depends on the company producing the product and using 'China' as a broad label is not helpful]

My experience in supplying the answers below is based on the Brodmann and Hailun pianos.

Regarding some questions that were posted earlier:

1) Are they interested in building high-quality pianos?

2) Is there enough consumers’ confidence to pay the price for a high-quality piano made in China?

3) Is it worth for piano dealers to pay extra for a better Chinese piano?

My answer to all these questions is YES, based on the following reasons:

1) I recently had a meeting with Colin Taylor the co-founder and technical director of Brodmann and asked a lot of technical questions. They are very interested in building a quality product. Of course I have observed the workmanship and materials up to this point which are indicative of higher quality, but just wanted to make sure that those intentions will remain or migrate even further up the scale.

2) Yes, provided that it is shown and explained to them what they are getting. After a thorough examination, the attributes are clearly visible and these reinforce the more easily observed tone and touch which are already superior to most pianos.

3) Piano Dealers are consumers, too. The value proposition accelerates as the price rises, so I will gladly pay more for the high-end. These are the most compelling options.

I can assure you that sophisticated consumers are choosing these pianos. It is not a rare event for me to sell the larger Brodmanns, the 7' and 7'6" which I regularly stock and sell and which do require a fairly significant investment.

Many here may remember this first poster:

https://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubb.../Purchasing%20a%20piano.html#Post1840275

Who later concluded this:

Re: Recommended Dealers for following brands! [Re: GCdreamer]
Auntie
Full Member

Registered: February 07, 2012
Posts: 20
Wow!! My first post without seeking advice!! GCDreamer, I am an amateur piano player and don't think I have any bias. I have just been on the journey you are about to take [with a smaller budget], and I live in Florida. The Estonia is carried (frequently....you must call first)in a showroom in Venice and Bonita Springs...both owned by Nick Mauel...nickspianos@gmail.com. I was at the Bonita facility yesterday...I must tell you I think it would be worth a trip for you and, also, a lot of fun. Call and make an appointment. Nick is knowledgeable and plays and is a tech and loves his pianos, tunes them, moves them for you in the showroom so you can hear different sounds. He voiced and tuned one, before I arrived, to my taste...which was unheard of for me. He LISTENS to what you are looking for in a piano. But I am also writing to say that I did what the people on the forum suggested and played a lot of pianos. Yesterday I played a relatively inexpensive [relative being the key word here] Brodmann at Nick's and found the 7 footer to be exquisite. Gorgeous to look at, magnificent to play. [It is now like sugar plums dancing in my head.] And whoever said a great piano can make you think, "I didn't know I could play that well", was right on the money. I even grew with confidence in the showroom as I hit those fabulous bass notes. Anyway, I thot it would be closer to you and a great day trip and you must try the Brodmann. Auntie

(Proud new owner of a Brodmann 212, increased initial budget)

Not really necessary at all, particularly as a pretense for simply plugging your brands and sticking in a customer testimonial to boot. Really, have you no shame whatsoever?

All I wrote was that even for a retailer such as you who is enthusiastic about his Chinese brands, there would be a price point at which you would need to think long and hard before absorbing the flooring cost and pitching the pianos to the consumer market which expects to pay less for Chinese product.

It's a simple fact that consumers expect to pay less for pianos made in China than they do for those of equivalent size from Japan, the US, and Europe. That fact of the marketplace may of course change over time, but that is the reality of the present day.

If you want to tell me that you would be happy to stock Chinese grands with size and price equivalency to Yamaha C. Mason and Hamlin, Estonia, or Schimmel Konzert, then go ahead and do so. I like a joke as well as anyone.

Turandot,

You make too many assumptions and state these as facts, when they are not facts at all.

I stated as a simple premise that dealers are piano consumers too. I can see what I am getting for the price paid and judge accordingly, looking for the best value at each price level. And I don't have to worry about any flooring costs since I pay for everything upfront to have more room to discount.


This is your guess to the question regarding whether or not consumers would invest the same amount in a piano coming out of China. The answer is "Yes they have." Particularly in regard to the larger Brodmanns or Hailuns, customers who were going the spend "x" amount for a particular Japanese piano were able to choose a bigger and far better sounding piano for the same amount. Since the investment level was the same and sometimes more, the confidence in the product also had to be maintained.

What you perceive as a 'plug' is what is necessary to supply proof of your errant remarks or speculations. The testimonial I supplied was completely unsolicited and the customer never appeared on the Forums again to reveal what she had purchased. But it shows that someone with a significant budget would choose the type of piano that is being discussed here for same reasons that many others have as well.



Of course you are right about this but after we leave the price and value realm of the best pianos from China the next big step up is - Estonia! Here we have far better quality for the Japanese price point. I no longer see value in prices for Japanese pianos, and my vendors are carefully chosen.