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I know that there is a "Fontana" version of the Waltz L'adieu that is a bit more popular than the original version. Why is it more popular? Would the International Chopin Competition allow the Fontana version of this waltz to be played? How many other pieces of Chopin did Fontana change? Are they also noticeably different from each other like the Waltz L'adieu versions?

-Thanks-

Why is it more popular? That's like asking why blue is more popular than green (I don't know that it is, by the way...just an example). You would have to contact the people at ICC, but my guess is that the answer would be "no". Are you planning to compete? How many other Chopin works are out there that were altered by Sr. Fontana? Sounds like a bit of homework for you, joe.

Derp.

I disagree with the above guess; I think they'd say it's fine.

I don't know if that version is really "more popular," and to tell you the truth, I never heard of there being such an edition, nor did I know that this waltz has that nickname, despite my having heard it probably hundreds of times and playing it almost as many, and knowing more about Chopin than the average bear.

The reason I think the ICC would say it's OK is that I see (from a quick internet search) that it has some historical acceptance -- for example, there's a Cortot performance of it on youtube. And BTW, FWIW, I've been sort of listening to that as I've been typing -- admittedly not listening closely -- and nothing stuck out to me as being radically different from the regular version. Whatever are the differences -- and I'm not particularly motivated to listen again to see what they are -- I'd guess that playing this version in the competition would be no more iffy -- if anything way less iffy -- than (for example) playing your own ornaments or little embellishments in a Nocturne, which I'd bet they wouldn't necessarily throw you out of bed for either.
(Depending on how you would do it.)

BTW, I am going to play an alternate version of a piece (mazurka) at the amateur ICC. (They've approved it.)

Well, if you care enough - go listen to the two versions again. There are noticeable differences with ornamentation and an interval in the main theme.




That would be hilarious, and if done right, an awesome thing to witness.

Which piece? ... Which version?

It came about from a thread on this site, by our member Batuhan. I mentioned later in that thread that I was so taken by the whole thing about that Mazurka (68/4) that I had changed my program for the competition to include it. I'm playing the reconstruction by Jan Ekier. Our member Dr. Kallberg mentioned another reconstruction, which he seems to prefer. I much prefer the Ekier.

BTW, I didn't base my guess about the waltz on this other thing very much, because this is probably a special case: Chopin never really completed the mazurka, so it sort of begs for reconstruction; and Jan Ekier has long been a key member of the ICC organization.

If you plan to compete, ask them as soon as possible. That's the only way to know for sure.

Hahahaha! I rather doubt they had to give it much thought before approval. Exceptional talent at the amateur comp (with there being a huge noticeable difference between two or three competitors and everyone else, however), but it's still an amateur competition.

I'm planning on competing in Warsaw in 2020, but I wouldn't perform this waltz. I asked about the ICC's approval basically to get a sense of the version's acceptance.

How old are you now and at what level is your playing at the moment?

17 years. -- and I don't know how to 'explain' my playing. I'll post recordings soon. I can't promise perfect sound quality.

Not a surprising reply, considering the source.

The organization takes the amateur competition much, much more seriously than you seem to think.

And BTW, regarding your completely gratuitous comment about the level of the contestants (but again not surprising, considering who's talking), judging from their first amateur competition 3 years ago, what you said isn't so. Not terribly far from so but not so.

Do another post like that and you'll force me to wonder out loud how you'd fare in one of these amateur competitions.

Fontana was Chopin's musical executor, and was the original publisher of Chopin's posthumous works. Comparing Fontana's versions with other versions probably means that there may be additional sources that showed up later, or that someone decided to complete an unfinished work differently. As Fontana was a friend of Chopin's, his alterations may have been based on something they had discussed together. In any case, I would suspect that comparing Fontana's versions of pieces with others is like comparing the French first editions with the German ones. Either are valid. Take your pick. Chopin could have played any of the versions, or even something else.

If "L'adieu" is Op 69, No 1, then there are considerable differences between the manuscript and the Fontana version.

The mss version has more repeats than the Fontana, because in the Fontana there are slight differences in ornamentations that are not realized by playing repeats. There are some differences
- in occasional note values (a dotted eighth-note plus a sixteenth-note, replaced by two eighth-notes;
- the con anima section starting at measure 33 in the Fontana version has slightly different LH chords at measure 21;
- the rhythmic structure is completely different in the mss in the section beginning at measure 81 in the Fontana version In the mss. version, the two C major chords come on beats 3 and 1, with the two eighth-notes on beat 2; in the Fontana version the two C major chords are on beats 1 and 2 with the two eighth-notes on beat 3.

Those are just some of the differences. In his 1963 recording of the Waltzes, Rubinstein plays the mss. version; the differences are quite discernible if you know the Waltz from the Fontana version - which most of us do. I haven't recently checked which versions Rubinstein plays of the following, but, if I recall correctly, it's always the mss. version.

There are similar textual differences, some quite dramatic, in some of the other Waltzes. In the B minor, Op 69, No 2, in the trio, there are no thirds in the right hand, just single notes, in the measures that correspond to measures 113, 115, 121, 123 in the Fontana. Measures 168, 169 in the Fontana have a chromatic descending passage which is totally different in the mss. version.

Differences abound in the G-flat major, Op 70, No 1, as well.

The Op 70, No 2 in F minor is 72 measures long in the mss., and 124 measures in the Fontana.

Presumably competition judges would be aware of these different versions and would either specify which version or would have to - I would think - accept either.

Regards,

According to the rules of the 2010 ICC...


Hope that helps answering your question

Is this recommendation just coincidental to Ekier's being one of the judges on the ICC, or is he really promoting his own edition over others?

Regards,

Hah my thoughts exactly
Paderewski edition for the win. Most pianists i know either recommebd it or use it themselves, pity they are so rare.


For someone so important Ekier came 7th when he did yhe competition...

Also amazed me how Ashkenazy came second and not first

I was sure you'd reply to my post so I took a peek to see what you had to say.

"not terribly far from so..." Look Mark, I've listened to the comps and it's quite obvious that I'm on. You, even in your disagreement (which isn't surprising considering that you've participated), say as much with "not terribly far from so..."
I realise that they take the amateur comp quite seriously... I never said anything to the contrary. I simply said that I doubt they would give much serious thought to such an approval.
How would I fare? Teaser question, since I wouldn't be allowed to enter (but you know that already). I know you find me rude, but if you knew what I'm holding myself from saying you'd find me not quite so after all.