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#1932054 - 07/24/12 11:38 PM Re: Kawai ES7 [Re: Kawai James]
Ube Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/24/12
Posts: 2
Loc: Hawaii
Thanks, Kawai James, for your info on the ES7. I've read much of what's online about it yet I'm uncertain how it compares to the MP10. Obviously it has more voices, a newer TG, etc. but does the MP10 have better piano samples?

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#1932058 - 07/24/12 11:47 PM Re: Kawai ES7 [Re: vegasE]
Kawai James Online   content
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8897
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Hello Ube,

Yes, the MP10s samples are superior (larger memory allocation), however the ES7's tone generator/DSP is more powerful. Certain elements of the Reverb, Effects, and Virtual Technician parameters will sound more realistic on the ES7.

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1932833 - 07/26/12 06:48 PM Re: Kawai ES7 [Re: vegasE]
sh1 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/22/11
Posts: 41
I do find it odd that Kawai wouldn't put their best available sample (ie the MP10) in their latest stage piano model. IIRC the biggest bugbear with the MP6 was the actual piano sound...everybody seemed to love the action and overall functionality, but the doubts were over the slight harshness in the piano tone itself.

Since this is probably the most influential factor in any purchasing decision, this sounds to me like a missed opportunity.

James alludes to the more powerful tone generator/DSP above, but mainly quotes Reverb, Effects etc, which can only cover any tonal issues to a certain degree.

Maybe James could elaborate any whether he thinks the new TG significantly alters the basic piano sound compared to the MP6?

I'm definitely interested in this board, but would like to think it was a definite improvement over the MP6 JUST in terms of piano.

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#1932851 - 07/26/12 07:52 PM Re: Kawai ES7 [Re: vegasE]
Kawai James Online   content
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8897
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: sh1
I do find it odd that Kawai wouldn't put their best available sample (ie the MP10) in their latest stage piano model.


The MP10 is a somewhat special board in that it has more memory allocated to piano sounds than any other Kawai instrument. As the flagship stage piano, it's very much intended to be 'the best of the best'.

The ES7 is more of a 'general purpose' instrument, designed to appeal to a much broader audience. Of course, it would have been fantastic to use the MP10s large samples, but this would inevitably have increased manufacturing costs, raising the store price of the instrument. As is stands, I believe the ES7 delivers an excellent package at a very competitive price, and represents a significant upgrade over the previous ES6 model.

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1932890 - 07/26/12 10:27 PM Re: Kawai ES7 [Re: vegasE]
Stevesie Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/23/12
Posts: 45
I'm still looking for my first DP, and I'm considering upping my budget. The ES7 looks like a possibility. James, did I read correctly a post of yours saying that the ES7 doesn't have multiple velocity samples like you would find in other pianos? If I've got that wrong, how many velocities samples are used?

Cheers.

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#1932896 - 07/26/12 10:41 PM Re: Kawai ES7 [Re: Stevesie]
Kawai James Online   content
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8897
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: Stevesie
James, did I read correctly a post of yours saying that the ES7 doesn't have multiple velocity samples like you would find in other pianos?


I don't recall writing that. The ES7 does indeed feature multiple velocity sampling - I apologise if I have you the impression otherwise.

Originally Posted By: Stevesie
If I've got that wrong, how many velocities samples are used?


I'm afraid that information is a company secret. However, it's more than the ES6, certainly. wink

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1932902 - 07/26/12 11:06 PM Re: Kawai ES7 [Re: Kawai James]
Stevesie Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/23/12
Posts: 45
Cheers James, I found the post and I'd completely misread it. My brain isn't so great these days.

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#1933055 - 07/27/12 08:45 AM Re: Kawai ES7 [Re: vegasE]
JFP Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 1336
Loc: The Netherlands
I still can't understand how adding a little memory for larger samples would substantially (!) increase manufacturing costs. In 2012 with petabytes of cheap ram, rom, flash rom, Ssd available. Sure dedicated rom as in a hardware instrument is probably more expensive than general flash memory or Ssd , but is that really such a big part of the costs of an instrument ?! I would guess the price of keybed, casing, knobs , sliders, displays , audio hardware have a far bigger impact on price than some small silicon memory module.

But we seem to have crossed this conversation so many times before already, that I think the manufacturers and customers will never understand each other on this little issue. For us (as end users) its all marketing bullocks ; separating the price ranges of instruments in sound quality, although technically and financially it would very well be possible to add better sounds to lower priced instruments without going bankrupt. Makes us (customers ) a little angry at times. If adding more memory really is soooo expensive, why not show or prove how much, so we can understand and agree and skipp this discussion once and for all. Just my thought...

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#1933056 - 07/27/12 08:47 AM Re: Kawai ES7 [Re: vegasE]
JFP Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 1336
Loc: The Netherlands
Still think the es7 is a nice package though ;-) I personally would add sw based instrument anyway, but that shouldn't be necessary...


Edited by JFP (07/27/12 08:48 AM)

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#1933065 - 07/27/12 09:07 AM Re: Kawai ES7 [Re: JFP]
McBuster Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/12/11
Posts: 219
Loc: St Paul Minnesota USA
Originally Posted By: JFP
For us (as end users) its all marketing bullocks ; separating the price ranges of instruments in sound quality, although technically and financially it would very well be possible to add better sounds to lower priced instruments without going bankrupt.


The argument is similar to a photographer who charges $750 for a sheet of paper/canvas for a 20x24, yet only $50 for an 8x10. Both from the same negative or digital file.

As I see it, mfgr's and artist's true cost is not in the production of their product, but in the time spent in learning their craft and/or R/D. And, do not forget the Marketing side to life. That too is a bit costly.
_________________________
Jon ...

Kawai CA95
Sailor, Consultant, Gourmet, Dreamer

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#1933079 - 07/27/12 09:43 AM Re: Kawai ES7 [Re: vegasE]
voxpops Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 3021
Loc: Oregon
The point is not whether Kawai charges more for the extra memory allocation, it's that they don't offer it to anyone who can't carry 70lbs! There is no truly portable Kawai piano offered with top-quality samples. That is what grieves me. Roland, Nord and Korg all offer instruments with their best sounds in configurations that one person can manage. Why does Kawai refuse to do this? I just don't understand the rationale.
_________________________
Occasional author and inveterate ivory tickler:
http://www.amazon.com/author/richardspanswick

https://soundcloud.com/richards-recordings/sets/strange-charm-waiting-for-the/s-ppGuy

"can hardly wait to hear what voxpox has to say..."
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#1933112 - 07/27/12 11:20 AM Re: Kawai ES7 [Re: voxpops]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4339
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: voxpops
Roland, Nord and Korg all offer instruments with their best sounds in configurations that one person can manage. Why does Kawai refuse to do this? I just don't understand the rationale.

I read somewhere that a good sounding yet portable Kawai DP is one of the 11 signs of the impending Zombie Apocalypse. So they're actually doing us a huge favor by not offering it (unlike Roland, Nord and Korg, who by this rational obviously don't give a fig about humanity). Sometimes you have to think outside the box in order to make sense of things.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#1933139 - 07/27/12 12:29 PM Re: Kawai ES7 [Re: vegasE]
JFP Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 1336
Loc: The Netherlands
As I said before; we are running in circles. We don't understand why Kawai doesn't offer the best sounds in a true portable (mp10 is still a heavy ...) and Kawai keeps on answering that that would make the instrument too expensive, without convincing any of us, why that should be the case. Sure it would add a little to the price, but I'm sure most of the customers would be happy to pay a little extra. That it would make it way more expensive is .....

To me and many others it is quite obvious that that has more to do with marketing / management decisions than the actual technical and/ financial sacrifice that Kawai would have to make. Or we are missing something here, that KAWAI could explain , so we are indeed convinced that it would add soooo substantially to the cost. Anyway I don't want to fall into the same discussion over again, either someone should clear it up, or we should just live with the reallity that KAWAI has a hard time understanding what little extra effort it would take to put an instrument on the market that really blows away the competition in the same price range.

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#1933151 - 07/27/12 01:00 PM Re: Kawai ES7 [Re: JFP]
voxpops Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 3021
Loc: Oregon
Originally Posted By: JFP
...either someone should clear it up, or we should just live with the reallity that KAWAI has a hard time understanding what little extra effort it would take to put an instrument on the market that really blows away the competition in the same price range.

I've given up expecting Kawai's marketing/management to understand the issue. I shall be moving on in a different direction. It's still an unnecessary shame, though.
_________________________
Occasional author and inveterate ivory tickler:
http://www.amazon.com/author/richardspanswick

https://soundcloud.com/richards-recordings/sets/strange-charm-waiting-for-the/s-ppGuy

"can hardly wait to hear what voxpox has to say..."
[HisKidd, May 2014]

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#1933174 - 07/27/12 02:03 PM Re: Kawai ES7 [Re: vegasE]
etercap Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/16/12
Posts: 2
I've seen a couple sites listing the ES7 for sale, at nearly $2000

http://www.dcpianos.com/html/featured/kawai-es7-portable-digital-piano/
http://www.lanemusic.com/p-1095-kawai-es7-home-keyboard-bundle.aspx (says it's part of a bundle)

Is there something wrong with those prices? Because they are quite higher than, for example the MP6, a fully featured stage piano. The ES7's improved action and DSP effects must be really good.


Edited by DPNewbie (07/27/12 02:06 PM)

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#1933198 - 07/27/12 02:34 PM Re: Kawai ES7 [Re: vegasE]
EssBrace Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2393
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
For those lamenting the lack of Kawai's top sounds in the MP6 or ES7 I understand your frustration.

However, you are assuming the MP10 is significantly better. Its on-paper specification would suggest so but I'm really not sure. The jump from Harmonic Imaging to Progressive Harmonic Imaging is immense - night and day. The jump to UPHI is a small increment in my opinion. Whilst I accept in principle it is a kick in the nuts to those that desire the MP6 and ES7 and who may feel short-changed but I think it's a non-issue in reality.

Cheers,

Steve
_________________________
Yamaha CP1

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#1933212 - 07/27/12 02:51 PM Re: Kawai ES7 [Re: EssBrace]
voxpops Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 3021
Loc: Oregon
Originally Posted By: EssBrace
For those lamenting the lack of Kawai's top sounds in the MP6 or ES7 I understand your frustration.

However, you are assuming the MP10 is significantly better. Its on-paper specification would suggest so but I'm really not sure. The jump from Harmonic Imaging to Progressive Harmonic Imaging is immense - night and day. The jump to UPHI is a small increment in my opinion. Whilst I accept in principle it is a kick in the nuts to those that desire the MP6 and ES7 and who may feel short-changed but I think it's a non-issue in reality.

Cheers,

Steve

You may be right, Steve, but we start from such a low base with DP sound engines, that every (even very small) increment helps - and there really is no excuse for "dumbing down" DPs from the very mediocre best that manufacturers offer.
_________________________
Occasional author and inveterate ivory tickler:
http://www.amazon.com/author/richardspanswick

https://soundcloud.com/richards-recordings/sets/strange-charm-waiting-for-the/s-ppGuy

"can hardly wait to hear what voxpox has to say..."
[HisKidd, May 2014]

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#1933217 - 07/27/12 02:58 PM Re: Kawai ES7 [Re: vegasE]
JFP Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 1336
Loc: The Netherlands
PHI has been around for some time. UPHI has been around for some time. Now there's even newer technology HI-XL . At the same time a new instrument is brought on the market. Although I do not expect it to have the latest and greatest from the top-line of instruments, it could at least have the previous technology on board and not the previous before previous incarnation (PHI) . Seems a bit odd for a new line of instruments. Regardless of the fact if the difference between PHI and UPHI is really that big. That said I'll probably buy an ES anyway, for the keys and total package, not specifically for the sound - which is a pity.

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#1933228 - 07/27/12 03:16 PM Re: Kawai ES7 [Re: etercap]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4339
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: DPNewbie
I've seen a couple sites listing the ES7 for sale, at nearly $2000

http://www.dcpianos.com/html/featured/kawai-es7-portable-digital-piano/
http://www.lanemusic.com/p-1095-kawai-es7-home-keyboard-bundle.aspx (says it's part of a bundle)

From that first link:


Is it just me, or does it seem like the cross board reinforcing the stand ends and supporting the pedals could possibly interfere with one's knees?
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#1933235 - 07/27/12 03:47 PM Re: Kawai ES7 [Re: JFP]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4339
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: JFP
That said I'll probably buy an ES anyway, for the keys and total package, not specifically for the sound - which is a pity.

That's the sport! You see voxpops? This is how it's done!

Just lie back and think of England.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#1933238 - 07/27/12 03:53 PM Re: Kawai ES7 [Re: vegasE]
sh1 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/22/11
Posts: 41
Korg could really end it for keyboards like the ES7 if they release that rumoured SV-2 based on Kronos.

Their R+D team must be staggered that since the cool but flawed SV-1, noone has yet put a great piano sample, great EPs and great organs in a single, reasonably priced portable package.

That goal is still wide open, I really hope Korg won't miss it next time.

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#1933240 - 07/27/12 03:55 PM Re: Kawai ES7 [Re: EssBrace]
Mar_red Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/14/08
Posts: 15
Loc: Poland
Originally Posted By: EssBrace


... you are assuming the MP10 is significantly better. Its on-paper specification would suggest so but I'm really not sure. The jump from Harmonic Imaging to Progressive Harmonic Imaging is immense - night and day. The jump to UPHI is a small increment in my opinion.
Cheers,

Steve


Steve,
Did you compare MP6 to MP10 before buying the latter?

If so, what about the difference in the actions?
Is it in your opinion as a MP10 owner so small too?

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#1933242 - 07/27/12 03:57 PM Re: Kawai ES7 [Re: dewster]
voxpops Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 3021
Loc: Oregon
Originally Posted By: dewster
Originally Posted By: JFP
That said I'll probably buy an ES anyway, for the keys and total package, not specifically for the sound - which is a pity.

That's the sport! You see voxpops? This is how it's done!

Just lie back and think of England.

Sport? JFP should get an Olympic gold medal for teeth-gritting in the face of marketing-generated adversity. wink
_________________________
Occasional author and inveterate ivory tickler:
http://www.amazon.com/author/richardspanswick

https://soundcloud.com/richards-recordings/sets/strange-charm-waiting-for-the/s-ppGuy

"can hardly wait to hear what voxpox has to say..."
[HisKidd, May 2014]

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#1933251 - 07/27/12 04:13 PM Re: Kawai ES7 [Re: sh1]
voxpops Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 3021
Loc: Oregon
Originally Posted By: sh1
Korg could really end it for keyboards like the ES7 if they release that rumoured SV-2 based on Kronos.

Their R+D team must be staggered that since the cool but flawed SV-1, noone has yet put a great piano sample, great EPs and great organs in a single, reasonably priced portable package.

That goal is still wide open, I really hope Korg won't miss it next time.

+1 thumb
_________________________
Occasional author and inveterate ivory tickler:
http://www.amazon.com/author/richardspanswick

https://soundcloud.com/richards-recordings/sets/strange-charm-waiting-for-the/s-ppGuy

"can hardly wait to hear what voxpox has to say..."
[HisKidd, May 2014]

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#1933289 - 07/27/12 05:44 PM Re: Kawai ES7 [Re: dewster]
Kawai James Online   content
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8897
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: dewster
From that first link:


Is it just me, or does it seem like the cross board reinforcing the stand ends and supporting the pedals could possibly interfere with one's knees?


No, I don't think so. I don't recall hearing any complaints from owners of the ES6, which used a similar stand design.

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1933297 - 07/27/12 05:53 PM Re: Kawai ES7 [Re: Kawai James]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4339
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
No, I don't think so. I don't recall hearing any complaints from owners of the ES6, which used a similar stand design.

Perhaps having bumped once too often against the similarly placed cross brace of our old Z-stand, my knees are now kind of claustrophobic.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#1933306 - 07/27/12 06:06 PM Re: Kawai ES7 [Re: vegasE]
JFP Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 1336
Loc: The Netherlands
I use a nice K&M stand for my MP6 (I'll look up the number) , no bumps and plenty of options (second stand, mic stand, laptop stand, etc) . One of my purchase reasons was leg space / knee space , like what you're talking about . I don't expect the ES stand to have too little room though, but a third party stand may have more options. For at home the ES bundle (stand + three pedal unit) seems a nice package.

Are all three pedals dynamic , or just the damper ? And can you change what a pedal controls ; e.g. could one of them behave as an expression pedal ? The ES lacks the expression pedal input that the mp series has. If the three pedal unit could compensate/ substitute for that, that would be great.

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#1933313 - 07/27/12 06:18 PM Re: Kawai ES7 [Re: JFP]
voxpops Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 3021
Loc: Oregon
Originally Posted By: JFP
I use a nice K&M stand

thumb K&M are the best IMO.
_________________________
Occasional author and inveterate ivory tickler:
http://www.amazon.com/author/richardspanswick

https://soundcloud.com/richards-recordings/sets/strange-charm-waiting-for-the/s-ppGuy

"can hardly wait to hear what voxpox has to say..."
[HisKidd, May 2014]

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#1933323 - 07/27/12 06:31 PM Re: Kawai ES7 [Re: vegasE]
Kawai James Online   content
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8897
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
+1
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1933376 - 07/27/12 08:28 PM Re: Kawai ES7 [Re: Mar_red]
EssBrace Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2393
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
Originally Posted By: Mar_red
Originally Posted By: EssBrace

... you are assuming the MP10 is significantly better. Its on-paper specification would suggest so but I'm really not sure. The jump from Harmonic Imaging to Progressive Harmonic Imaging is immense - night and day. The jump to UPHI is a small increment in my opinion.
Cheers,
Steve

Steve,
Did you compare MP6 to MP10 before buying the latter?

If so, what about the difference in the actions?
Is it in your opinion as a MP10 owner so small too?

No I didn't compare before buying the MP10. Well, not a straight comparison but I did play another Kawai with the same action (CS-3 I think it was). I thought that action - RH - was very good indeed.

Anyway I played the MP6 for the first time a couple of weeks back and I have to be honest and say it sounded pretty much the same as the MP10 to me (main piano voice). I like the MP10's action more in totality but there are elements of the RH action I prefer. Whilst I wouldn't ask for the very abrupt bottoming out of a Roland action I think the MP10's action could do with being just a little crisper at the bottom of its travel. It's mushy, like there's too much cushioning. But overall I prefer the RM3 action of the MP10 - it's just so smooth and enjoyable to play.

As a fairly portable device with great action and good (but not outstanding) sound I think the MP6 represents better overall value than the MP10. The MP10's EPs are good though, very respectable and if that is a priority for anyone I don't think the MP6 can quite cut it with the best (MP10 is competitive in that respect though).

Cheers,

Steve
_________________________
Yamaha CP1

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